Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Can we please get a race rebalance patch?

You have done nothing to contribute to your claims and clearly lack basic understanding of the topic at hand. Every one of your posts is ad hominem, gg.

Your attitude isn't helping.

So, you report someone else's post for disagreeing with you, and you don't think I will read the backlog for context and realize it's two people throwing hissyfits at one another? Unfortunately for you, I mostly see you throwing insults around and having a disrespectful attitude towards others. At least when you report a post, make sure you're better behaved than others.

This could be a bad idea, but what if civil militia was replaced with a bonus feat (that can't be an ASI) at lvl 1. Maybe even further limit the selection of feats from this racial bonus if you feel some feats are just too strong. I feel like this could make humans flexible for any build, but wouldn't make humans too strong when compared to other races. It also stays true to how tabletop RPGs always emphasize humanity's versatility.

I've never been a fan of the obsession with balance, but it at least used to mean that everything was distinct. Things were clearly differentiated, and the balance came from making them all still equally viable. I don't care for that, but it at least doesn't actively interfere with the flavor. It seems like a lot of people are asking for the game to remove all semblance of differentiation between races, classes, backgrounds, etc., when the game already does that to a degree that would be unrecognizable to a BG2 player who time-traveled to play this game.

Some people prefer PHB ability rules. Some Tasha. They each have their objective pros and cons and subjective aspects as well.

What is in retail BG3 is neither, and most probably agree is lesser for it. Though it has some quirks (like human armor prof.) that can be exploited in some builds that people may dig.

That said, the OP expressed his opinion and has the self awareness not to demand Larian force a change on everybody that prefers the current implementation, but to give the OPTION to revert to PHB like rules to those that wish to take that option.

In a game that promotes player choice, it is a fantastic idea. Put a checkbox on the options menu and let the player decide what is a more fun experience.

Win win.

We need a boost to certain racial options, especially humans. Because both humans and half-elves get Civil Militia (which is decent on arcane spellcasters), humans are 100% pointless because of all the other nice stuff half-elves get.

Everything doesn’t have to be perfectly balanced, but there shouldn’t be such obvious cases of one being just a superior version of another.

Humans need either an additional combat feature to Civil Militia, or replace Civil Militia with another combat feature.

I think Larians decision to give everyone +2/+1 on attributes instead of following the PHB rules is a huge improvement and allows everyone to freely pick their prefered race and class combination without feeling gimped in regards to stats.

However the races need to be rebalanced for this afterwards, i.e. the extras must each add about the same amount of power to the character.

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My suggestions would be something like:

- Change Human to : 1 extra feat, 1 extra skill, 1 extra weapon proficiency

- Change Half-Elf to : 1 extra skill, 1 extra weapon proficiency, advantage vs charm, darkvision, subrace features (as before)

- Change Gold Dwarf to: As before, plus +50% carrying capacity

- Change Shield Dwarf to : As before, but instead of medium armor proficiency: +2 armor class (stacks with anything), +50% carrying capacity

- Change all Dragonborn subraces to : Resistance against Elemental Damage Type, 1/day Breath Weapon 17ft cone, 1d6 Elemental Damage Type damage; level 5: 2d6 damage, level 10: 3d6 damage, and maybe an indiviual 1/day or 3/day spell, or a cantrip, for more flavor and more differences between the subraces (many of which are now exactly the same as another choice, if they both go for the same elemental damage)

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Reasoning:

I find extra carrying capacity a typical dwarven thing. They are short and broad and endurant, thus they can carry more. Also, they are kind of greedy and/or materialistic, which also fits the pattern of wanting to carry more. Why on the other hand humans should have such a property is a complete mystery to me.

Shield Dwarf are supposed to be a warrior race and need a racial ability that does NOT motivate everyone to exclusively only play Shield Dwarven Sorcerers and Wizards and nothing else, ever.

Humans are supposed to be the flexible race that can do anything. An extra feat and skill should do that. Random armor, shield and weapon proficiencies plus extra carrying capacity not so much.

Half-Elves are supposed to be a mix of human flexibility and elven grace, and thus get adjusted for the changed definition of human. They do however need to sleep and thus shouldnt be immune to magical sleep.

Giving Humans and Half-Elf an extra weapon proficiency allows Shadowheart to still use Spears. Alternatively, Clerics could sunoky get extra weapon proficiencies depending upon their choice of deity. Assuming they dont pick Tempest or War.

Dragonborn are clearly inferior to Tieflings in their racials.

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Alternative ideas: Shield Dwarf could instead of 2 extra armor class simply get 2 damage reduction against all physical damage

I agree with quite a bit of this, but Dwarves should not get +2 AC. IMO Gold Dwarves should get Light Armor Proficiency and Shield Dwarves should get one Armor Proficiency better than that granted for their Class (minimum Medium Armor + Shield); if they get Medium Armor from their Class, they get Heavy Armor instead and if they get Heavy Armor Proficiency for their Class, they get Heavy Armor Mastery instead. Carrying Capacity might matter in TTRPG, but in BG3 it doesn't make much difference. Still, giving Dwarves a bit more makes senses.

What's missing is the boost to other shorties. Halflings need Stealth Proficiency. Gnomes need Expertise (Sleight of Hand for Rock Gnomes, Animal Handling for Forest Gnomes, and Stealth for Deep Gnomes).

And Githyanki should get Psionic Resistance like they have in 5e.

I know that this is going to sound crazy, but it looks like the main technical limitation is the fact that the +2/+1 is tied to Class instead of Race in order allow support for the respec functionality.

If implementing respeccable +2/+2 for Shield Dwarves or +2/+1/+1 for Half-Elves is too challenging, how about we hardcode the extra +1 into the race and keep the variable +2/+1.

I understand that these racial bonuses would not be respeccable, same as Elves not being able to respec racial cantrip in the current game.

They can either:

Option 1:
Allow the player to allocate the +1 into Str/Con for Shield Dwarf or any stat for Half Elf or Human. THE CHARACTER WOULD BE LOCKED IN WITH THAT SELECTION FOR THE ENTIRETY OF THE GAME.
This would be able to stack with the "class" +2/+1 for either +3/+1, +2/+2, or just +2/+1/+1.


Option 2:
Just give all three (human, half-elf, shield dwarf) +1 CON as a Racial since it's the most versatile stat across all classes and doesn't lead to busted builds.

Option 3: give Shield Dwarf a hardcoded +1 STR and Half-Elves a hardcoded +1 CHA. This will lead to busted builds, but it would be more fun than whatever the heck those races currently have.


I echo the sentiment of many other people in this thread. It feels really underwhelming to pick anything other than Half-Orc, Wood-Elf or Halfling for any martial class.
I miss the fun I used to have with 16/16/16/9/9/9 Human Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian builds. or even 9/16/16- 16 in main stat Human casters.

I dont think thats really possible.

For example if you start your Shield Dwarf as Bard, would you later get Heavy Armor Proficiency when they pick College of Valor or College of Swords ?

What about starting as Bard and later taking a level of Cleric with one of the many domains with Heavy Armor ? Would they then get Heavy Armor Mastery ?

I would say +2 AC is much easier to implement.

What I need in an RPG is not efficiency, but authentic things.

Races have advantages and disadvantages, be it directly in the abilities, or then in the game as e.g. hated race, or as appreciated race, that can also change a bit depending on the locality.

As much as I like certain rules in RPGs, the focus is absolutely on a class depth in conjunction with a race. And it's not necessarily about making something unrealistic out of a race just to get the numbers right.
It is already questionable in BG3 that all races can learn all classes.
Basically, this is wrong in RPGs of this kind and should not be so.

The more authentic separation there is in the system of classes and races and that is not only in the creation of characters, but then continues in the game, in the area of class development in conjunction with specific class houses and that even separated by good and evil, the better the immersion and depth. This can be done even better if it is then connected to tasks very specific to the class.
If a necro is seen as rather dark and evil and he has his class house in an underground crypt, or a necropolis.

The whole thing then goes into combining a logical choice of races.
It just feels better when paladins and monks are limited to humans and dwarves. This also has a corresponding background.
Just as dark elves have their dark classes and this can also be specialized accordingly.

Ultimately, this is all connected and has a massive impact on a game of this type. Also on the replayability, when the world opens up differently and reacts very specifically to race and class.

I care less about balance and more about flavor.

The more differences between the races, the better.

There should be enormous conflict and racism between the races in the setting. That's what world-building is all about. That's part of what gives a setting depth. Right now, things are going in a terrible direction. The push to make everyone the same removes the art from the game and leaves nothing behind but a boardgame in its place.

More and more, the races are being treated as costumes.

*

The tieflings are tainted by something devilish. That should be reflected in them. Half-orcs are half monstrous, which should be reflected. They are also larger and biologically stronger. That should be 100% reflected. Elves live an enormously long time. They are generally considered more beautiful and closer to magic due to their fae heritage. That should be reflected in their portrayal.

Instead, we end up with a setting where the dishwasher at the local inn could be whatever. The courier could be whatever.

It's just bad. I'd like to see someone at Wizards with a little bit of courage and vision. I bet anything, if this were done in Faerun, it would first be met with a large outcry from a very vocal group, throwing around crazy accusations about society and such. And then, when all of that was ignored--as it should be--the real consumer base would be thrilled and massively entertained.

MY PEOPLE

This is something I hate about a lot of modern RPGs, the homogenize the various races and even classes. Look at what has been done to MMOs to see what I mean. The distinctions are what gave the races and classes flavor.

An extra feat would be way too much. It would allow them to duplicate a key perk of many other races, and often exceed them. Wood elves, for example, are often picked for that +5 to movement speed. Well, now humans can start with +10... with added movement related benefits. That +1 hp per level that one dwarf race gets? Yeah, humans can now start with +2. And just that it would mean that humans can start with a 19 in their main stat... The only way to balance such a thing would be to give the humans a serious disadvantage, like giving up the +2 to a stat, or else the +1 to a stat and having a limited selection of feats they can choose.

Note that alt humans, the reason why people bring up the "give humans an extra feat" idea, do just that... they give up stats to get that feat. This allows for human flexibility, while still letting the other races have their specialties.

I could see giving humans a second +1 to a stat, which is essentially a half-feat. This means they could start with a 17 and two 16s, so it is quite a strong perk, but it wouldn't allow starting with a 19.

I dont recall the exact specifics of EA but the races certainly felt a lot more differential compared to what we got with release.

EA used the basic PHB settings for racial modifiers.

I would like to see human subraces - that would also solve your problem. They could have different passives instead of "jacket of all trades" for no reason.

But not only it is natural, it would also remove the need to put human subraces faces into other races faces. It would be the correct thing to do.
It is also devastating for roleplaying games. As if it wouldn't be almost destroyed by corporations and their mainstream focus where they simply ignore all RP options and mix everything. They want USA everywhere. But there is no RP in it. There is no cultural background in being American. Maybe that can be good enough for a shooter, but you have nothing to work with in RP games.

I don't like a lot of features in DnD - like shields everywhere, crossbows for everyone, the lack of unique class spells, some of the old spells wouldn't fit PC games, but now when I see 5th edition rules in BG3 - the newest changes just made everything worse RP wise IMO.

Humans having +1 skill, +1/+1 to stats and +1 feat (AKA Variant Human / v-human / vhuman) has been a D&D 5e alternative statline since 2014 in the tabletop and it really isn't as strong as it sounds, and even less so after Tasha's was introduced (freely assigned stats for everyone like in BG3). They're usually only a good choice for feat starved builds and not without drawbacks. Even in your given example of a wood elf versus vhuman isn't as straight forward as you present it, because wood elves still get perception proficiency, darkvision, stealth proficiency, Fey Ancestry (sleep immunity, charm resistance) and some pretty good weapon proficiencies (shortsword, longsword, shortbow, longbow). The wood elf also gets a +1/+2 while the vhuman only gets +1/+1.

Vhuman was a reasonably good choice for a lot of martial builds in tabletop (until Custom Lineage was introduced who also get a free feat, free stat allocation *and* darkvision, because humans can't have anything nice in D&D), but that has a lot more to do with how feat dependent martial characters are as a result of the base classes being really bad compared to spellcasters. You don't pick vhuman on, say, a Barbarian because having a feat is "nice". You pick vhuman on Barbarian because the class *needs* to have Great Weapon Master at lvl 1 to be worth playing next to spellcasters, because most martials aren't even noticeably better at using weapons than spellcasters until lvl 4 or 5 without a free lvl 1 feat. But if you're not playing a feat dependent martial, or the campaign starts above lvl 4? Then the wood elf is still going to be the overall better choice a lot of the time, as will most other non-human options.

Anyway, back to the topic, I am going to rank races based on their utility and stats, how many classes they are good at, etc. Personal opinion, without taking things like overbundance of fire resist potions, etc:

F tier:

-Human

Variant Human is considered one of the most versatile races in 5e, as an early feat like Lucky can be incredibly powerful. But their BG3 implementation is horrible.

They get no darkvision, no advantages, no resistances and only a single additional proficiency. Additional carry capacity is pointless and their only use is for caster with no armour or shield proficiency like Wizard or Sorcerer.

Everything they do Half Elves do better.

-Dragonborn

One of the coolest looking races in BG3 and one of the weakest overall. They suffer from similar issuess as humans do, but worse.

Not only they don't get anything special like skill, weapon, armor proficiency, they also get a horrible breath weapon that does 2d6 damage ONCE PER LONG REST.

Their only saving grace is resistance to single element, which can be useful, when dealing with things like fireball, etc. Special mention goes to Black and Red Dragonborns, etc for their resistance, which could put them technically in C tier, but not above.

However, a paladin, Oath of the Ancients can easily protect the party and themselves from multiple sources of magical damage, without a need to play a subpar race.

C tier (situationally useful, average):

-Halflings:

Being able to reroll natural 1 is very powerful, since it's auto fail, no matter your bonuses. However, they don't have that many other impactful or interesting abilities.

Brave rarely comes into effect, as most opponents don't make you afraid, but try to kill you on the spot. Resistance against poison damage is decent, but is relatively rare kind of damage in the game. Acid is far more common that than and none of them offer any protection to it. They are also small, which means they are slower than most other races, which combined with verticality of BG3 really hinders them, as well as other small races. Advantage on Stealth is nice, similar to Deep Gnomes, but they are overall better.

Lack of Darkvision is also annoying, as there are certain areas that punish you for the lack of it, but the game features a plethora of means to circument that + majority of the game is well illuminated, even the Underdark.

-Shield Dwarf, the weakest dwarf overall.

Dwarves overall aren't bad, but shield dwarf suffers from having the least going for them.

Sure, they get some weapon proficiencies, but these barely matter most of the time. If you are playing martial, they are wasted, if you are playing a wizard you won't be using them anyway. You get access to half plate, but no shield, making them similar to humans in some ways.

They get darkvision and poison resistance, which are fine additions on their own, but not gamebreaking and their slow speed also makes a C tier at best.

B Tier (above average, good to play, despite their weakpoints)

-Gold Dwarf

Similar to Mountain Dwarf, no armour proficiency, but extra hitpoints are nice and allows them to be put in any role.

-Druegar (High B tier, to low A tier)

Best of the dwarves. They get 2 types of resilience, superior Darkvision and 2 extra spells, enlarge and invisibility. Advantage vs charmed and paralysed is very good.

-Tieflings, all variations.

Tieflings are not a bad race on their own. They get access to some spells for free, some good, some bad, darkvision and fire resistance, which already puts them way above the Red Dragonborn.

However, their spells are not that amazing and they can only cast them once per day. Still, a good race to play.

-Forest and Rock Gnomes

While on paper they may seem similar to halflings, they get some extra bonuses like darkvision and most importantly Gnome Cunning. Gnome Cunning alone puts them in B tier, as having advantage on Wis, Int and Cha saving throws is fantastic.

Problem is, that's the only thing they offer. Rock Gnome get expertise in history, which is marginally useful, while Forest gets talk to animal for free, which is useful, but also easily obtainable through other means.

They are also as slow as Dwarves and Halflings.

-High Elf and High Half-Elf

Both are similar, they get one extra cantrip each. High elves get perception skill + some weapon proficiences, while High Half-Elf gets militia training. They also get advantage againt charm and are immune to magical sleep.

The reason they aren't higher is because compared to other elves and half-elves they come up short. Still, they are the top of the B tier and still decent to play.

A tier:

-Deep Gnome

Similar to the two other gnomes, it comes with Gnome Cunning, Superior Darkvision and advantage on all stealth checks. This gives them an edge over other two subraces and makes them solid for any class. Sure, they may not have armour proficiency or shield, but they easily make up for it.

-Wood Elves and Half Wood Elf

Each of them offers addtional movement speed and proficiency in stealth. Compared to having one extra cantrip, Wood Elves come out on top. Other than that, they are similar to High Elves.

-Drow and Half Drow

Not surprising here at all. Similar to other elves, they get superior darkvision and some good extra spells like Fearie fire and Darkness, which are great for Warlock and few other classess.

S tier

-Half Orc

To nobody's surprise Half Orc is one of the top tier races. They get to cheat death once per long rest, which means they don't lose an action, when getting knocked out, savage attacks are fantastic with crits and intimidation proficiency is a cherry on top.

-Githyanki

They may not have Darkvision, but they more than make up for it. Access to medium and light armour, swords, extra spells and an ability to become proficient in all stats of one type lands them top tier choice here. If you make a character that takes no charisma based skills, this race alone can get you more than Bard's Jack of All trades in some ways. Very good race indeed.

With that in mind, you can see, why certain races are only picked for visuals. Changes I would make:

a) Replace current human with Variant Human. This puts humans in a solid B tier at the bare minimum, probably at A tier even. Since you only gets 4 feats at most in the game, having an extra is very nice.

b) Change Dragonborn to use their Fizban Treasury of Dragon's variant. This makes them viable as martials and adds extra goodies.

c) Shield Dwarf should get shield proficiency. That's all it needs.

d) Halflings... Not sure. Maybe add an extra skill? Or mini lucky?