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Joined: Sep 2023
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Ok I have a few things I want to say, suggest, kick up about, regarding Astarian, with a side helping of a no less important Karlach.
1. I have no idea how the writers even thought Astarion was a suitable contender for polyamory. A huge part of his arc is him trying to escape forced and ultra compulsory sexual slavery and trauma. He's mentally scarred by it, he finds it difficult, if not impossible for most of the game, to say 'no' out of fear of losing the one person that has stood by him. His entire flamboyant character was conceived by Cazador to make him more suitable for what Cazador wanted him to do. You have to work to gain his trust, getting him into bed once is easy, after that if theres no relationship you can forget it.
I've seen the scenes on utube (yes I was curious on my third playthrough), he doesn't really take part, the game says that if you look into his eyes he's 'a million realms away' or 'there's no joy in his eyes', he performs because he knows how to but mentally distances himself from it - its too close to what he spent 200 years being forced to do.
He's doing what he thinks you want him to, turning YOU into his abuser.
Yes I know how to avoid those scenes, I've had several playthroughs and I am a long time gamer and can read a scene reasonably well.
But why on earth would any writer think he's a good candidate for this? It's mind boggling, tone deaf and ultra distasteful - really.
2. The we come to what Larian considers the ending (no one else does of course because it isn't remotely an ending). An unascended Astarion, who has been alongside you since the very beginning of Act 1, who has had one of the most interesting character arcs of any character in any game I have ever played, who has fought alongside our friends, and who because of this massive redemption arc is now viewed very favourably by the group.
Now - in the last 3 minutes of the game he is treated to a completely uneccessary tasteless quip from a member of the group whilst he is burning alive. Someone presumably thought it was funny?
It isn't. They need a sense of humour check, it's not remotely funny.
This man has spent 200 years as a victim of slavery and abuse, he does not need to be treated as the butt of a puerile joke.
3. Unascended Astarion and Karlach are the only two romanceable characters that have no chance whatsoever of having a truly happy ending (No Avernus is not a happy ending - it's only marginally less abysmal than dropping dead on the dock)
Yes you have to make certain choices, some more difficult than others to get the other companions happy endings but they actually exist.
There are no choices for 'Good' Astarion and Karlach.
I suspect it was tick the boxes thing 2 sad, 2 neutrals, 2 happy, 'Yeah guys that'll work'.
It actually makes me never want to finish Act 3 ever again.
BG2 has cures for vampirism, DnD5e has cures and we have Mystra in the game who gives Gale his soul back if he gives her the crown on one route so in THIS game you have someone being given their soul back.
But you can't sort out a new heart for Karlach (when the tech exists just down the road)
Or a soul for Astarion?
Jaheira have amnesia? Withers go on a three month holiday to find that mural or something? we just did his dirty work sorting out the dead 3, he owes us one.
Get rid of the tasteless joke Larian. Just don't bother at all, it's evening after all I'm sure the tadpole effect could last 3 more minutes.
Sort out some better endings, preferably ones that involve a party as in Act 1.
And if you can't for some inane 'gotta tick the sad box' reason give Karlach and Astarion a happier resolution - then at least make them very very much more up beat and hopeful.
We just saved the world and we can't save two of our people just sucks.
Last edited by Bethra; 05/10/23 12:24 PM.
# Justice for Astarion
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Joined: Sep 2023
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Ok I have a few things I want to say, suggest, kick up about, regarding Astarian, with a side helping of a no less important Karlach.
1. I have no idea how the writers even thought Astarion was a suitable contender for polyamory. A huge part of his arc is him trying to escape forced and ultra compulsory sexual slavery and trauma. He's mentally scarred by it, he finds it difficult, if not impossible for most of the game, to say 'no' out of fear of losing the one person that has stood by him. His entire flamboyant character was conceived by Cazador to make him more suitable for what Cazador wanted him to do. You have to work to gain his trust, getting him into bed once is easy, after that if theres no relationship you can forget it.
I've seen the scenes on utube (yes I was curious on my third playthrough), he doesn't really take part, the game says that if you look into his eyes he's 'a million realms away' or 'there's no joy in his eyes', he performs because he knows how to but mentally distances himself from it - its too close to what he spent 200 years being forced to do.
He's doing what he thinks you want him to, turning YOU into his abuser.
Yes I know how to avoid those scenes, I've had several playthroughs and I am a long time gamer and can read a scene reasonably well.
But why on earth would any writer think he's a good candidate for this? It's mind boggling, tone deaf and ultra distasteful - really. I was just writing a post about this scene, but I guess I'll just chime into your thread to not be redundant. I think what I hate most with the drow twins scene is that you can't stop it once it's started. Astarion himself says that he wants to try it and assures you that he'll abort if he does not like it. So you go into it trusting that he will say stop (reminder that the scene can only play after you defeated Cazador). But he doesn't abort. And you as his lover see that he goes into service mode where he takes care of everyone but himself and then compartmentalizes out of the situation. But you get NO chance to stop him or the sex scene as soon as you realize he is not ok. You have to let it play out to the end and the drow makes a tasteless comment that he should pay you for it. Even worse – you can not talk to Astarion afterwards. Player agency is taken away during the scene and you can’t even have a talk. It's really badly handled IMO. What was the point of the scene if you can't even react to it?
That said, I think it's totally in character for him to want to try stuff (even sex stuff) now that he is free of Cazador. As he puts it in the graveyard scene - he wants to try everything life has to offer. And the first thing he wants to do is have sex with you. It seems to go well, so he gets cocky. And he tries the next level too quickly and can't handle it. Totally ok writing. But as a player you should be able to drag him out of the situation. So my problem is not that the scene exists, but that the player has no agency in it. I think they should really give you the chance to stop him and then have a talk with him.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2021
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Ok I have a few things I want to say, suggest, kick up about, regarding Astarian, with a side helping of a no less important Karlach.
1. I have no idea how the writers even thought Astarion was a suitable contender for polyamory. A huge part of his arc is him trying to escape forced and ultra compulsory sexual slavery and trauma. He's mentally scarred by it, he finds it difficult, if not impossible for most of the game, to say 'no' out of fear of losing the one person that has stood by him. His entire flamboyant character was conceived by Cazador to make him more suitable for what Cazador wanted him to do. You have to work to gain his trust, getting him into bed once is easy, after that if theres no relationship you can forget it.
I've seen the scenes on utube (yes I was curious on my third playthrough), he doesn't really take part, the game says that if you look into his eyes he's 'a million realms away' or 'there's no joy in his eyes', he performs because he knows how to but mentally distances himself from it - its too close to what he spent 200 years being forced to do.
He's doing what he thinks you want him to, turning YOU into his abuser.
Yes I know how to avoid those scenes, I've had several playthroughs and I am a long time gamer and can read a scene reasonably well.
But why on earth would any writer think he's a good candidate for this? It's mind boggling, tone deaf and ultra distasteful - really. I was just writing a post about this scene, but I guess I'll just chime into your thread to not be redundant. I think what I hate most with the drow twins scene is that you can't stop it once it's started. Astarion himself says that he wants to try it and assures you that he'll abort if he does not like it. So you go into it trusting that he will say stop (reminder that the scene can only play after you defeated Cazador). But he doesn't abort. And you as his lover see that he goes into service mode where he takes care of everyone but himself and then compartmentalizes out of the situation. But you get NO chance to stop him or the sex scene as soon as you realize he is not ok. You have to let it play out to the end and the drow makes a tasteless comment that he should pay you for it. Even worse – you can not talk to Astarion afterwards. Player agency is taken away during the scene and you can’t even have a talk. It's really badly handled IMO. What was the point of the scene if you can't even react to it?
That said, I think it's totally in character for him to want to try stuff (even sex stuff) now that he is free of Cazador. As he puts it in the graveyard scene - he wants to try everything life has to offer. And the first thing he wants to do is have sex with you. It seems to go well, so he gets cocky. And he tries the next level too quickly and can't handle it. Totally ok writing. But as a player you should be able to drag him out of the situation. So my problem is not that the scene exists, but that the player has no agency in it. I think they should really give you the chance to stop him and then have a talk with him. If choose the option to sleep with astarion after his confesses everything to you, he leaves you. Makes me wonder why he doesn't do the same there.
Last edited by Rosa; 05/10/23 03:43 AM.
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If choose the option to sleep with astarion after his confesses everything to you, he leaves you. Makes me wonder why he doesn't do the same there. Because it's two different situations. In the first he had just confessed his feelings for you and though he knows the sex with Tav is different he still can't shake the 200 years of abuse making every kind of sexual intimacy having a bad aftertaste because it reminds him of all the 1000 times he didn't do it volantarily. He wants to be seen as a person, not a sex object. And asking him for sex immediately after he tells you that makes him feel like all you want from him is his body. Even worse, as he tells you afterwards, he can't say no, because he never learned how. (That's why giving him the choice to say no to the blood merchant is such a big deal to him.) He breaks up with you because you betray his trust.
In the twins scene on the other hand he is finally free of Cazador and can choose for himself and is eager to try stuff, but overestimates himself. Depending on how you approach the twins it's the twins that proposition and Astarion who answers first. It's not something anyone tells him to do.
Admittedly the confession scene, as beautiful as it is, is not very well handled, as you need to go down certain dialogue options to really get the whole picture. And the dialogue line that leads to the sex and break-up scene is pretty ambiguous. I myself did not think that telling him that he should have sex for his own pleasure instead of others' would lead to sex immediately. I wanted to back him up, not coerce him into sex. When I realised my error because of his immediate reaction I could not stop the scene from happening. I had to ride it out and see my Tav behave like a total douche. Luckily F8 exists... It would have been nice with a little more player agency here.
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journeyman
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journeyman
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If choose the option to sleep with astarion after his confesses everything to you, he leaves you. Makes me wonder why he doesn't do the same there. Because it's two different situations. In the first he had just confessed his feelings for you and though he knows the sex with Tav is different he still can't shake the 200 years of abuse making every kind of sexual intimacy having a bad aftertaste because it reminds him of all the 1000 times he didn't do it volantarily. He wants to be seen as a person, not a sex object. And asking him for sex immediately after he tells you that makes him feel like all you want from him is his body. Even worse, as he tells you afterwards, he can't say no, because he never learned how. (That's why giving him the choice to say no to the blood merchant is such a big deal to him.) He breaks up with you because you betray his trust.
In the twins scene on the other hand he is finally free of Cazador and can choose for himself and is eager to try stuff, but overestimates himself. Depending on how you approach the twins it's the twins that proposition and Astarion who answers first. It's not something anyone tells him to do.
Admittedly the confession scene, as beautiful as it is, is not very well handled, as you need to go down certain dialogue options to really get the whole picture. And the dialogue line that leads to the sex and break-up scene is pretty ambiguous. I myself did not think that telling him that he should have sex for his own pleasure instead of others' would lead to sex immediately. I wanted to back him up, not coerce him into sex. When I realized my error because of his immediate reaction I could not stop the scene from happening. I had to ride it out and see my Tav behave like a total douche. Luckily F8 exists... It would have been nice with a little more player agency here. Yes, he overestimates himself but the they add into the scene "there's no joy in his eyes" means Tav sees it and doesn't react to it. I feel Astarion would at least say something. It's not like Astarion is Shy and with how Tav to reacts to this talk could lead to a break up. Just because someone loves a person doesn't mean they don't view the relationship differently.
Last edited by Rosa; 05/10/23 08:43 AM.
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Joined: Sep 2023
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Ok I have a few things I want to say, suggest, kick up about, regarding Astarian, with a side helping of a no less important Karlach.
1. I have no idea how the writers even thought Astarion was a suitable contender for polyamory. A huge part of his arc is him trying to escape forced and ultra compulsory sexual slavery and trauma. He's mentally scarred by it, he finds it difficult, if not impossible for most of the game, to say 'no' out of fear of losing the one person that has stood by him. His entire flamboyant character was conceived by Cazador to make him more suitable for what Cazador wanted him to do. You have to work to gain his trust, getting him into bed once is easy, after that if theres no relationship you can forget it.
I've seen the scenes on utube (yes I was curious on my third playthrough), he doesn't really take part, the game says that if you look into his eyes he's 'a million realms away' or 'there's no joy in his eyes', he performs because he knows how to but mentally distances himself from it - its too close to what he spent 200 years being forced to do. I was just writing a post about this scene, but I guess I'll just chime into your thread to not be redundant. I think what I hate most with the drow twins scene is that you can't stop it once it's started. Astarion himself says that he wants to try it and assures you that he'll abort if he does not like it. So you go into it trusting that he will say stop (reminder that the scene can only play after you defeated Cazador). But he doesn't abort. And you as his lover see that he goes into service mode where he takes care of everyone but himself and then compartmentalizes out of the situation. But you get NO chance to stop him or the sex scene as soon as you realize he is not ok. You have to let it play out to the end and the drow makes a tasteless comment that he should pay you for it. Even worse – you can not talk to Astarion afterwards. Player agency is taken away during the scene and you can’t even have a talk. It's really badly handled IMO. What was the point of the scene if you can't even react to it?
That said, I think it's totally in character for him to want to try stuff (even sex stuff) now that he is free of Cazador. As he puts it in the graveyard scene - he wants to try everything life has to offer. And the first thing he wants to do is have sex with you. It seems to go well, so he gets cocky. And he tries the next level too quickly and can't handle it. Totally ok writing. But as a player you should be able to drag him out of the situation. So my problem is not that the scene exists, but that the player has no agency in it. I think they should really give you the chance to stop him and then have a talk with him. I would have zero issues with the scene (never been a prude in any game) if they allowed player agency to pull him out of it as soon as its obviously not something he feels comfortable with. They don't and that's why I feel the scene is ultra distasteful and tone deaf. But sadly they do tone deaf with Astarion more than once, even after his origin story is known to all: "We have a sexy vampire, lets make him do all sorts of things we fantasise about in spite of the sad back story we just gave him". Great,if not brilliant, writing most of the time but just occasionally it slips up badly.
# Justice for Astarion
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addict
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Joined: Sep 2023
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Ok I have a few things I want to say, suggest, kick up about, regarding Astarian, with a side helping of a no less important Karlach.
1. I have no idea how the writers even thought Astarion was a suitable contender for polyamory. A huge part of his arc is him trying to escape forced and ultra compulsory sexual slavery and trauma. He's mentally scarred by it, he finds it difficult, if not impossible for most of the game, to say 'no' out of fear of losing the one person that has stood by him. His entire flamboyant character was conceived by Cazador to make him more suitable for what Cazador wanted him to do. You have to work to gain his trust, getting him into bed once is easy, after that if theres no relationship you can forget it.
I've seen the scenes on utube (yes I was curious on my third playthrough), he doesn't really take part, the game says that if you look into his eyes he's 'a million realms away' or 'there's no joy in his eyes', he performs because he knows how to but mentally distances himself from it - its too close to what he spent 200 years being forced to do.
He's doing what he thinks you want him to, turning YOU into his abuser.
Yes I know how to avoid those scenes, I've had several playthroughs and I am a long time gamer and can read a scene reasonably well.
But why on earth would any writer think he's a good candidate for this? It's mind boggling, tone deaf and ultra distasteful - really. I was just writing a post about this scene, but I guess I'll just chime into your thread to not be redundant. I think what I hate most with the drow twins scene is that you can't stop it once it's started. Astarion himself says that he wants to try it and assures you that he'll abort if he does not like it. So you go into it trusting that he will say stop (reminder that the scene can only play after you defeated Cazador). But he doesn't abort. And you as his lover see that he goes into service mode where he takes care of everyone but himself and then compartmentalizes out of the situation. But you get NO chance to stop him or the sex scene as soon as you realize he is not ok. You have to let it play out to the end and the drow makes a tasteless comment that he should pay you for it. Even worse – you can not talk to Astarion afterwards. Player agency is taken away during the scene and you can’t even have a talk. It's really badly handled IMO. What was the point of the scene if you can't even react to it?
That said, I think it's totally in character for him to want to try stuff (even sex stuff) now that he is free of Cazador. As he puts it in the graveyard scene - he wants to try everything life has to offer. And the first thing he wants to do is have sex with you. It seems to go well, so he gets cocky. And he tries the next level too quickly and can't handle it. Totally ok writing. But as a player you should be able to drag him out of the situation. So my problem is not that the scene exists, but that the player has no agency in it. I think they should really give you the chance to stop him and then have a talk with him. +1 to all of this. The game gives you 3 or 4 opportunities to straight up murder him during the bite scene, but not a single option to end a sexual encounter when you see he's dissociating. Like, we're supposed to care about him, right? This is still a roleplaying game? The Halsin thing too. You can't tell Astarion about Halsin's offer without automatically agreeing to it. There's no dialog option to tell him "don't wanna do it, just wanted to let you know this happened." And the spawn ending is... Someone looked at the character with that kind of backstory, written realistically enough that a good number of actual real life people relate to him, and went "yeah let's turn his pain and struggle into a joke." And again, no option to run after him. Even if he's the only companion you recruit. If I have to run to Karlach's side I sure as hell should be able to run after Astarion.
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Reading through all of this, I'm happy I wasn't the only one upset about it. I'm hooked at how complex a character Astarion is. Every time I talk to him, I'm analyzing if he's actually being honest with me. When it's apparent is when he thanks you after you save him from having to bite the drow in Act 2.
To know all of this about it him makes me inclined to tread carefully when it comes to intimacy for him. I want him to choose and want it every time. And I want him to know I really and truly care for him.
It seems so obvious that Larian would want that for the character too. But, based on what we seem to have no choice about (pulling him out of the foursome, having the option to tell Astarion that you would never ask him to be a part of the Halsin polyamory, not being able to run after him when he's burning in the sun, not being able to ask his feelings on any of these instances etc.), Larian doesn't want it? So was his story arc created by someone independent to the whole overarching story process or something? Because if you were taking into consideration what your characters would want in any given situation, we wouldn't have so many damn tone-deaf moments.
#JusticeForAstarion
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Yeah, the character himself is written incredibly well, but the writing around him can get really idiotic. it's like the writers who wrote those bits were more interested in kinks and jokes than the characters. The Halsin situation is a good example of that, as we see in other threads. Both Astarion and Shadowheart fall victim to forced poly with him.
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Yeah, the character himself is written incredibly well, but the writing around him can get really idiotic. it's like the writers who wrote those bits were more interested in kinks and jokes than the characters. The Halsin situation is a good example of that, as we see in other threads. Both Astarion and Shadowheart fall victim to forced poly with him. Yes, that was extremely strange. Both Astarion and Shadowheart have sexual trauma that runs deep, why in the world are they the options to share Halsin? Astarion even opens up slightly and asks if you're interested because he's been sexually distant. WHY IS THAT LINE IN THERE IF THE GAME DOESN'T WANT YOU TO FEEL BAD?? That IMMEDIATELY made me feel like this was a bad idea. Astarion deserves better.
#JusticeForAstarion
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Yes, that was extremely strange. Both Astarion and Shadowheart have sexual trauma that runs deep, why in the world are they the options to share Halsin? Astarion even opens up slightly and asks if you're interested because he's been sexually distant.
WHY IS THAT LINE IN THERE IF THE GAME DOESN'T WANT YOU TO FEEL BAD?? That IMMEDIATELY made me feel like this was a bad idea. Astarion deserves better. Can we add to that that even Halsin has a past of They really should have stayed clear of that stuff for those characters. It actually hurt Halsin's character a lot more than it added. Considering how well written Astarion is as a character (elevated even further by Neil's fantastic performance) the biggest problem with him is the lack of player agency in some of his scenes. They can't expect me to sit in the backseat when he is struggling after they made me care!
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Yes, that was extremely strange. Both Astarion and Shadowheart have sexual trauma that runs deep, why in the world are they the options to share Halsin? Astarion even opens up slightly and asks if you're interested because he's been sexually distant.
WHY IS THAT LINE IN THERE IF THE GAME DOESN'T WANT YOU TO FEEL BAD?? That IMMEDIATELY made me feel like this was a bad idea. Astarion deserves better. Can we add to that that even Halsin has a past of They really should have stayed clear of that stuff for those characters. It actually hurt Halsin's character a lot more than it added. Considering how well written Astarion is as a character (elevated even further by Neil's fantastic performance) the biggest problem with him is the lack of player agency in some of his scenes. They can't expect me to sit in the backseat when he is struggling after they made me care! Preaching to the choir. I'd let the world burn for that man. I CERTAINLY wouldn't let him burn for a nasty quip from Gale.
#JusticeForAstarion
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All they have to do is let me put my cloak on his head. The man's already covered from head to toe otherwise.
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