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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2023
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I mean, I do agree. It's actually well done in some regards and that's frustrating. Because again, it's like... the possibilities (not even the cheesy ones like wish spells or scrolls or whatever, actual directly linked to her possibilities) are right there. Even if they don't work in the end and we're still adamantly meant to fail (in which case, I do have the same question as Karlach herself - WHY HER), at the very least should've been available to be tried. Like, I, as a Tav, I want to try.
Also as someone mentioned a while ago it's really mean that the only person who can't climb out of the narrative pit we meet them in is Karlach, who also had very little to do with the fact that she got into that situation. Like, all of them are victims, 100%, but at the very least our other resident bomb-in-chest haver got his hubris to blame. And even so he's fine. Karlach is just... what, some people are just unlucky? Sometimes all bad things happen to one person just because? Is that the moral here? It's not even a sickness (as in a classic terminal patient cases) that indeed just strikes people out of nowhere, it's a very much man-made/devil-made condition that was actively done to her. And if the former is, okay, often something that you have no choice to accept, then the latter is just mean. You got royally screwed over, deal with it, oh and also even your vengeance didn't feel good or change anything. Sigh.
I suppose that's its own sort of tragedy, but when put in a line up with everyone else... why her, indeed. To be fair though, Karlach isn't the only companion with a tragic outcome. She potentially has the most negative 'good' outcome, but other than Gale and maybe Lae'zel, none have an entirely positive outcome. Mind that most of the below aren't necessarily from the origin POV, only Gale's is, therefore I could be mistaken about the rest. Massive ending spoilers ahead for all companions: Gale: Gale essentially has four outcomes.
1. He blows himself up and saves the day, but he's gone. That's not a good outcome, for him.
2. He ignores the crown. This means he'll eventually die from the netherese bomb. Not much different from Karlach, truly, just that he'll last until Mystra stops stabilizing him.
3. He defies Mystra and tries to take over. Mystra wins and destroys him. The end. A fine effort, but in vain.
4. He returns the crown to Mystra and she cures him. The one and only truly good outcome for an origin companion, except maybe Lae'zel. Astarion: Astarion really only has two outcomes.
1. He becomes Vampire Ascendant. He's no longer himself and judging by the lore around Cazador and the other ones, it's not a good life. Not much different from mindflayer Karlach. Powerful, yes, but no longer Astarion.
2. He remains a vampire spawn. He's going to be stuck in the dark again, his cravings remain. Back to how it was for the last 200 years except now he no longer has a cruel master. Still, not optimal. But if he has you as his romance partner, it's not the worst outcome, as it'll help him cope. Shadowheart: Shadowheart has three outcomes.
1. Shar's little bitch. She explodes her parents and remains loyal to Shar. From the very start of the game, in the ruins where you find Withers, you already find books that imply - and this is later confirmed by many other hints and Viconia's corpse - that Shar will use you, abuse you, and then discard you once she's done with you. Not a good outcome.
2. She saves her parents. Two paths lead this way, both end the same way, she's going to have to live with the uncurable wound forever and Shar just gets to torment her like she's got a Shadowheart voodoo doll at the ready. Her mother has dementia and will likely not last long. A cure is still possible, though, gods can be defied after all.
3. She sacrifices her parents to cure herself. She'll live with depression for a long time, as is heavily implied by the game, but can heal, though likely only if she has you as romance partner to help. Wyll: I know of two outcomes, but I do not know what happens if you have him kill Karlach.
1. Wyll breaks the pact with Mizora and his father either dies or you saves his father. He remains demon for good and, if you save his father, Mizora will eventually keep up the bargain and kill his father.
2. Wyll keeps the pact to save his father. He remains demon for good and he's Mizora's little bitch once more and thus by extension, Zariel's little bitch.
3. Wyll kills Karlach, doesn't become demon, and I assume follows up on the above? He'll stay Mizora's little bitch or eventually loses his father but at least he won't be a demon then. Better version of Shadowheart's "cure" outcome because at least he'll have better memories of the past.
His non-Mizora bound outcomes also include him becoming the Blade of Avernus or become Archduke against his will. As Blade of Avernus, unless he goes with Karlach, he's as good as dead. No shot he's going to solo demons without his powers. As Archduke, he'll live an unhappy life but at least he'll live. Lae'zel: Lae'zel has three outcomes, I believe.
1. Vlaakith's little bitch. She remains loyal to Vlaakith, Vlaakith promises her infinite power and all that jazz. As seen in the Creche she is a backstabbing cunt and kills her. The end.
2. She goes to face Vlaakith with or without Orpheus. No idea how this one ends to be honest, I don't know if origin Lae'zel gets an ending showing it, but Vlaakith has a Wish spell. She can just Wish Lae'zel dead again, so I doubt it's good.
3. She stays. Vlaakith will keep hunting her. Since your merry band of misfits more or less disbands by the end of the game, she doesn't have as much assistance anymore and will likely succumb. That is assuming Orpheus doesn't win against Vlaakith, of course. Karlach: Karlach has three outcomes, as it stands.
1. She explodes on the spot. Not exactly optimal, no better than Gale sacrificing himself.
2. She becomes a mindflayer. Withers knows who she is, but he also claims mindflayers have no souls, so what actually happens is up for debate. Not a good outcome either way, since she won't truly be herself, like Vampire Ascendant Astarion.
3. She goes to Avernus with you and/or Wyll. Hunt demons for, well, ever, until you either die or find someone in Avernus that can fix it, which is more likely than Dammon fixing it, but entirely up to the imagination.
Last edited by Michieltjuhh; 06/10/23 01:45 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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It is a nice tragedy story arc... in another setting. It just does not work in high fantasy.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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I mean, I do agree. It's actually well done in some regards and that's frustrating. Because again, it's like... the possibilities (not even the cheesy ones like wish spells or scrolls or whatever, actual directly linked to her possibilities) are right there. Even if they don't work in the end and we're still adamantly meant to fail (in which case, I do have the same question as Karlach herself - WHY HER), at the very least should've been available to be tried. Like, I, as a Tav, I want to try.
Also as someone mentioned a while ago it's really mean that the only person who can't climb out of the narrative pit we meet them in is Karlach, who also had very little to do with the fact that she got into that situation. Like, all of them are victims, 100%, but at the very least our other resident bomb-in-chest haver got his hubris to blame. And even so he's fine. Karlach is just... what, some people are just unlucky? Sometimes all bad things happen to one person just because? Is that the moral here? It's not even a sickness (as in a classic terminal patient cases) that indeed just strikes people out of nowhere, it's a very much man-made/devil-made condition that was actively done to her. And if the former is, okay, often something that you have no choice to accept, then the latter is just mean. You got royally screwed over, deal with it, oh and also even your vengeance didn't feel good or change anything. Sigh.
I suppose that's its own sort of tragedy, but when put in a line up with everyone else... why her, indeed. To be fair though, Karlach isn't the only companion with a tragic outcome. She potentially has the most negative 'good' outcome, but other than Gale and maybe Lae'zel, none have an entirely positive outcome. Mind that most of the below aren't necessarily from the origin POV, only Gale's is, therefore I could be mistaken about the rest. Massive ending spoilers ahead for all companions: Gale: Gale essentially has four outcomes.
1. He blows himself up and saves the day, but he's gone. That's not a good outcome, for him.
2. He ignores the crown. This means he'll eventually die from the netherese bomb. Not much different from Karlach, truly, just that he'll last until Mystra stops stabilizing him.
3. He defies Mystra and tries to take over. Mystra wins and destroys him. The end. A fine effort, but in vain.
4. He returns the crown to Mystra and she cures him. The one and only truly good outcome for an origin companion, except maybe Lae'zel. Astarion: Astarion really only has two outcomes.
1. He becomes Vampire Ascendant. He's no longer himself and judging by the lore around Cazador and the other ones, it's not a good life. Not much different from mindflayer Karlach. Powerful, yes, but no longer Astarion.
2. He remains a vampire spawn. He's going to be stuck in the dark again, his cravings remain. Back to how it was for the last 200 years except now he no longer has a cruel master. Still, not optimal. But if he has you as his romance partner, it's not the worst outcome, as it'll help him cope. Shadowheart: Shadowheart has three outcomes.
1. Shar's little bitch. She explodes her parents and remains loyal to Shar. From the very start of the game, in the ruins where you find Withers, you already find books that imply - and this is later confirmed by many other hints and Viconia's corpse - that Shar will use you, abuse you, and then discard you once she's done with you. Not a good outcome.
2. She saves her parents. Two paths lead this way, both end the same way, she's going to have to live with the uncurable wound forever and Shar just gets to torment her like she's got a Shadowheart voodoo doll at the ready. Her mother has dementia and will likely not last long. A cure is still possible, though, gods can be defied after all.
3. She sacrifices her parents to cure herself. She'll live with depression for a long time, as is heavily implied by the game, but can heal, though likely only if she has you as romance partner to help. Wyll: I know of two outcomes, but I do not know what happens if you have him kill Karlach.
1. Wyll breaks the pact with Mizora and his father either dies or you saves his father. He remains demon for good and, if you save his father, Mizora will eventually keep up the bargain and kill his father.
2. Wyll keeps the pact to save his father. He remains demon for good and he's Mizora's little bitch once more and thus by extension, Zariel's little bitch.
3. Wyll kills Karlach, doesn't become demon, and I assume follows up on the above? He'll stay Mizora's little bitch or eventually loses his father but at least he won't be a demon then. Better version of Shadowheart's "cure" outcome because at least he'll have better memories of the past.
His non-Mizora bound outcomes also include him becoming the Blade of Avernus or become Archduke against his will. As Blade of Avernus, unless he goes with Karlach, he's as good as dead. No shot he's going to solo demons without his powers. As Archduke, he'll live an unhappy life but at least he'll live. Lae'zel: Lae'zel has three outcomes, I believe.
1. Vlaakith's little bitch. She remains loyal to Vlaakith, Vlaakith promises her infinite power and all that jazz. As seen in the Creche she is a backstabbing cunt and kills her. The end.
2. She goes to face Vlaakith with or without Orpheus. No idea how this one ends to be honest, I don't know if origin Lae'zel gets an ending showing it, but Vlaakith has a Wish spell. She can just Wish Lae'zel dead again, so I doubt it's good.
3. She stays. Vlaakith will keep hunting her. Since your merry band of misfits more or less disbands by the end of the game, she doesn't have as much assistance anymore and will likely succumb. That is assuming Orpheus doesn't win against Vlaakith, of course. Karlach: Karlach has three outcomes, as it stands.
1. She explodes on the spot. Not exactly optimal, no better than Gale sacrificing himself.
2. She becomes a mindflayer. Withers knows who she is, but he also claims mindflayers have no souls, so what actually happens is up for debate. Not a good outcome either way, since she won't truly be herself, like Vampire Ascendant Astarion.
3. She goes to Avernus with you and/or Wyll. Hunt demons for, well, ever, until you either die or find someone in Avernus that can fix it, which is more likely than Dammon fixing it, but entirely up to the imagination. Yes, but the point here is that everyone else has the POSSIBILITY of a good ending, based on player choice. They are not being railroaded.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2023
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Yes, but the point here is that everyone else has the POSSIBILITY of a good ending, based on player choice. They are not being railroaded. What I pointed out is that they aren't necessarily good endings. But I do agree that the problem with Karlach is that essentially the only time you get to make an actual choice that changes her outcome is when you're already at the finish line. Your choices didn't matter. That needs to change.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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It's true there's only a few set positive outcomes in general, but there's an argument to be made why even the less good ones are really good for the characters. I think most of them can fit really well. Won't talk about all of them since there's not much more to say on some. Wyll: Wyll made a deal with a devil. It was NEVER going to end well for him I think. You can ofcourse try to get him out of his contract AND save his father but it only delays the inevitable. That being said, I don't think he'll become powerless. Quite a loss surely but I see it more as a 'restart' with a new class. Similar to how everyone got knocked down to level 1 because of the tadpole. So he's not entirely screwed, but I see your point. Lae'zel: Yes Vlaakith has wish, but that is an incredibly risky spell, no matter how you slice it. And if she wanted to kill Orpheus or Lae'zel with wish then I think it would have happened. So Lae'zel getting the chance to live her own life, or fight to end Vlaakith's rule is still a great ending for her. Astarion and Shadowheart: Putting these two together because I feel they both get shafted in endings but in different ways. Shadowheart could potentially be a Selunite with or without her parents/with or without her scar. And that's good, it deals with loss and pain in different ways. But unless you're a romance partner you don't really get to... see that? Same for Astarion. I don't think anybody walked into Act 2 and beyond with the idea that you'll cure Astarion of his vampirism. Infact, I don't think he'd want to get rid of, as he seems to revel a bit in the power it provides. But if he doesn't become ascended he runs off into the shadows and again, that's all we see if we're not a romance partner for him. I think they're both good for these characters, it just sucks that unless you're romantically involved you have no idea what their plans are, which is what I mean by shafted. Hell, Shadowheart might get to say a few lines at the end by random chance and... that's all. Meanwhile we have Gale who no matter what, because of the orb and the crown, you get a final chat with him for where he's off to next. And then Karlach is just he opposite. No matter who we are to her we get to see her die or go to Avernus, so it's an inverse horrible feeling Gale situation (coupled with the fact that we try 0 things and run out of ideas to fix her).
Last edited by rdslatez; 06/10/23 02:09 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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Absolute spoilers below This goes without saying that all playthroughs as Origin or Tav can end in them betraying everything and just controlling the brain to become The Absolute. But that's evil route deluxe, even if it keeps Karlach alive, it's not her anymore. Not really. Karlach Origin endings spoiler For those wondering how Karlach handles the end if you play as her and don't have anyone joining you etc. Just pure Karlach run:
Karlach takes in the fact that this is the end of the road for her and she feels the engine burning out in her chest. The battle is done and won and no matter what, this is where her story ends. She's really sad about it, to the point it makes me tear up as I type. She asks herself if she can do this, and you can either say Yes, No, or There has to be another way.
If you say Yes, she will convince herself that it's okay, she did good and that she only needs to see the sky one last time before she goes. She will then go from the tower to the docks and burn out alone. Saying goodbye to the sky and sea. Exploding.
If you say No, she will talk about maybe there being another way. She speaks of Avernus being the only place where she for now can survive. She sounds sure of herself and positive, she says that Maybe this time, things will be different. She says she's different, than the last time she was there. She'll need a big-ass sword, which she has, and a lot of gut, which she has too. She says she can do this, and the scene fades to black. We don't really get an Avernus ending epilogue here from what I've seen for now. So there's that. She's more positive toward Avernus when she's on her own and thinking the thoughts between death and life in the Hell, and she is more positive about it here than anytime before. But it also sounds fishy and weird and all I want is for her to be able to get help in late Act 3 because she didn't ask for any of this. She didn't ask for the engine, she says that Zariel tunes up her pets and that she's not even the most banged up one. She's been betrayed, sold off, enslaved, mutilated against her will and put to do Zariel's dirty dishes. When she finally emerges back to the land she belongs in, she's in pain and hurting and either forced to die or return to the one place she never wanted to go back to. How fair is this compared to everyone else? I don't need her to have a perfect glorious ending. Everyone sacrifives something even in their best endings and most have a looming threat of their spiteful Goddesses huffing on their necks. Let Zariel try to hunt her. Let Karlach have less powers than before. Let her live, though, and let her run her Tavern, tell stories, go to bed knowing she could turn the tables in a world that is made for our choices. Damn.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Romance probably do a "better" ending for every character, because you can "feel" that Tav helps the romanced character (like Tav and Karlach go together to Avernus is 100% better than let her go there alone) Unfortunately without proper epilogs we don't see far to the future which will definetly helps us to better understand if the so called good ending was really good or if only looks good (Did eventually Karlach and Tav find the cure in Avernus? Or died Astarion 10 seconds later when the sun started to burn him?) I think that is the exact reason why epilogs are so important for RPG players, because they build relationships with companions and they want to know how the party members are doing ather the game ends.
Last edited by Rae; 06/10/23 09:39 PM.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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To be fair though, Karlach isn't the only companion with a tragic outcome. She potentially has the most negative 'good' outcome, but other than Gale and maybe Lae'zel, none have an entirely positive outcome. You are generally correct, I agree that most companions don't exactly get fairytale endings (especially when not played as origins). However, I think in Karlach's situation a bittersweet ending more equal to what Gale or Astarion (etc) get would be something like. She gets to live more, but her lifespan is still shortened and the engine will just blow up some years later. Or she gets to live but she's left permanently disabled in some way that makes her weaker. Or yes, Zariel will forever be on her tail. Like, "an end definitely better than what we met her as, but there's still a catch, even if it's worth it" is what I'd describe the general state of 'good' endings for most of them but her. She's technically back to the square one. Or even worse, since there's no time left. Arguably, the only thing that changed is her having friends/a lover willing to help. Which is where the Avernus ending comes in. Karlach Origin endings spoiler Oh hey, thank you! Okay, I think that actually gives some context to the scene when she's a follower as well. When you're at a point where you have to ask yourself "Can I do this?" and instead of mulling it over on your own and having to convince yourself to go through with it you have to look into your lover's or good friend's pleading eyes as they ask you to decide "No" - there's logic in actually failing to convince yourself that you can. And if per her Origin run she can canonically convince herself otherwise, that she's better and stronger and she got this, even as she's alone, then that argument must hold even more weight when she's actually not alone. Still an abrupt turn from a whole game of denying the Avernus option, but at least it's a consistent turn. Desire to live is a thing, after all.
![[Linked Image from tarraxahum.neocities.org]](https://tarraxahum.neocities.org/buttons/2rdo1pL.png)
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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https://twitter.com/larianstudios/status/1710294313161097620?t=Saz3xPGvLWHaM8r9xYAYYQ&s=19Hey everyone, worth checking is the recent Karlach art retweet by Larian, and checking the comment section. Add your voice as so many have already done so, but to be kind to the amazing artist it's also woeth giving them a like and comment on their og post. Be kind to fellow creators in arms but totally a great place to let your voice be heard.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Did my part! Thanks, I'm hardly on Twitter these days so I don't see these things. The art is freaking beautiful, too. On another note, someone (I'm either going mad and have seen it some other place or I haven't looked far enough in the thread but I can't find the post) recently mentioned the true resurrection once again, and the fact that it restores "missing and damaged body parts", which, apart from the heart, would logically also include healing scars and likely even the broken horn. While I reeeally don't think that's a mechanic that will (or really should) be explored in-videogame, just for the sake of theorizing, do you think 'healing damaged parts/scars' includes tattoos? Technically they are also sort of scars (pierced and put under skin and such) and a foreign thing to the body. Especially since, as we've learned by their translation, at least parts of Karlach's tattoos (likely all tbh) seem to be unwilling branding, so, very much scar-equal mentally-wise, too. Usually these things are determined by the DM for each particular case, I believe, but I wanted to hear some thoughts, if anyone has any. EDIT: Had another thought: the spell by definition "replaces damaged or missing organs and limbs". Is a limb still 'damaged' if the scars are long since healed? Also does the horn count as a limb? 
Last edited by tarraxahum; 06/10/23 08:03 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2023
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Karlach's ending is a bummer even after the expanded epilogue added in Patch #2 IIRC.
It just does not fit high-fantasy trope. There are so many options to fix her problem in DnD world that our party just waltzes through that it makes hilariously no sense and we are being left with three very bitter and little sweet choices. I will not repeat myself, as basically everything has already been said in that topic here.
It is even more disheartening that the character that is so likeable, despite being the one that was most abused by life (making her positive attitude even more noteworthy) gets such choices. I have the feeling, that there was much more planned for her in store and we are being left only with endings designed as the "bad or quite bad".
Still kudos to Larian Team, if the characters wouldn't be good, then nobody would care. Also give your voice actors a raise: that is the best, most emotional voice acting I've seen in the game in more than two decades, maybe ever.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2023
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Thanks for adding your voice to the discussion, I’m sure we all really appreciate it!  100% agree with you.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2023
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It just occurred to me recently that I don't think there's even much of anything related to her tadpole beyond your initial meeting with Karlach, unless I'm forgetting something. Other companions had options now and then to do something like using the parasite to peer into their mind, but I don't remember anything like that with Karlach.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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It just occurred to me recently that I don't think there's even much of anything related to her tadpole beyond your initial meeting with Karlach, unless I'm forgetting something. Other companions had options now and then to do something like using the parasite to peer into their mind, but I don't remember anything like that with Karlach. If I'm correct, it is later in the game, when you save the Emperror and he tries to convince you to accept the tadpole. Then you can ask Karlach to aslo to accept hers.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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Hey wonderful soldiers! To everyone new in the past 2-3 pages, welcome and thank you for voicing your opinions! As it seems, my little meme caught fire and led to quite the massive discussion on Reddit so if anyone wants to check it for that audience's view, https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/171oo18/you_did_all_you_could_to_help_her/Genuinely, at this point, Karlach's story and ending is by far the top requested change when it comes to the companions. With Minthara, Halsin, Wyll and HUG EVERYONE options being the runner ups.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Hey wonderful soldiers! To everyone new in the past 2-3 pages, welcome and thank you for voicing your opinions! As it seems, my little meme caught fire and led to quite the massive discussion on Reddit so if anyone wants to check it for that audience's view, https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/171oo18/you_did_all_you_could_to_help_her/Genuinely, at this point, Karlach's story and ending is by far the top requested change when it comes to the companions. With Minthara, Halsin, Wyll and HUG EVERYONE options being the runner ups. niice :D:D
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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It just occurred to me recently that I don't think there's even much of anything related to her tadpole beyond your initial meeting with Karlach, unless I'm forgetting something. Other companions had options now and then to do something like using the parasite to peer into their mind, but I don't remember anything like that with Karlach. To be slightly fair, with other companions those options are often linked to getting to know more about them with or without their consent, and Karlach just. Tells you anything you want to know almost immediately, no tadpole required But I will say, yeah, don't remember any tadpoled interactions with her (apart from generally discussing options, like with the astral tadpole). Would be fun to do some telepathic stuff at some point. As it seems, my little meme caught fire and led to quite the massive discussion on Reddit Nice indeed! More discussions, more noise (and also it's a good meme, y'know)! Btw the HUG EVERYONE option is definitely needed and should include hugging Karlach more than once I don't make the rules. (But also like, some companions on their personal quests could REALLY use a hug. What does my Tav have those big buff arms for!!!) By the way, speaking of changes. Minthara's VA was seen posting a photo from a sound booth and then soon after Wyll's VA is posting a photo in motion caption gear again, same studio as BG3... thinking, thinking. (Samantha, our Karlach, seemed to be on vacation recently, but also even if they're all actually going back to the studio for more BG3 stuff - and not just other projects - I have a feeling that they'd keep her reveal under wraps the longest. Lest we blow up prematurely. Pun not intended.)
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
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VAs were called back around patch 2 or something, doesn't mean much considering new voicelines (and things that required mocap) were already added
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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I'm talking recent as in "two days ago" recent for Theo (and for Emma I think it was like the very end of September?..), to clarify.
So IF it's BG3-related then clearly not anything already released. Granted, could be other projects entirely, but the studios are the same as Larian worked with.
(also the "VAs called back" thing was phrased as "all the voice actor's we're GOING TO call back" and posted when patch 2 was already in testing, so, no)
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
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Did they tweet something or it's from some dirt sheets? Because there was some photo of all VAs in the studio I think and it's like few weeks old or something
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