Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Halsin Romance, Expectations and Obligatory Poly

It's a discussion that always leads to the worst take you've ever seen once it goes on long enough. Yes, authors *should* invest in consistency and moderated suspension of disbelief. It's their greatest asset. At the same time, you will always find someone who thinks character x couldn't possibly do y because they hate it personally. Always. Without fail. Sometimes the transition is that horrible and it makes no sense. Sometimes it was Tuesday as usual. What should be criticized is the transition and everything that made it unbelievable.

He could similarly take Karlach, fumble why Wyll chooses to believe her, and have people declare "OOC". Was it OOC? Or just the hypothetical set up? That's the issue with potentials. Everyone, and I really mean everyone minus two people ever in this thread, agree the transitions are botched. Completely, utterly, somewhere. We've also covered the ground "personal attacks against the author are not productive", "complaints that the author did this because he hates me personally" is not conductive, and "let's not accuse real people of fetishes". There is nothing controversial about disliking every other thing about Halsin. What people choose to be actively bothered by is their choice.

I'd like an actual scene at the Act I party. It could be very simple - maybe you and Halsin take a walk through the now-quiet Grove, allowing him to say goodbye to the place he's tended for so long and perhaps show you some of his favorite/most memorable spots. This could serve three purposes:

1. More time with Halsin. (Tarlonniel approves)
2. A chance to bring up the polyamory angle well in advance.
3. Perhaps it could set a "You're serious about Halsin" flag. Those who chose to do something else at the party could still hook up with him in Act III, but they wouldn't get the "undying devotion" type lines from him and the ending would play out as it does now. Those who did take the walk would get the devotion dialogue and an ending where you stay together.

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What should be criticized is the transition and everything that made it unbelievable. [/quote]

That is literally what we've been doing...

There are some things to be taken from these threads.
1. Halsin severely lacks in content in act 3 other than being a - for the lack of a better word - temporary sex pest.
2. Halsin's romance is not written the way that the audience at large that asked for him to be a romance partner expected his romance to go based on his EA interactions.
3. These few specific interactions are by the audience at large considered out of character by the other characters that were rewritten to fit his romance.
4. We're shouting at a wall.
5. The author doesn't even have to play the world's smallest violin about any of this, but that shouldn't stop people from talking about it.

As for Karlach and Wyll, remember the tadpole is showing Wyll everything Karlach's been through. He sees she's not a devil, therefore knows he was deceived by Mizora. Plausible enough to me.

I'm not saying Wyll's moment is botched. I am saying someone could have done it, and we'd be discussing if Wyll is meant to be a hidden psychopath. Conversely, in possession of no backbone. My philosophy is "do it well, or don't do it at all". Needless to say, it was not done well. However. I don't want to start this discussion up again, but you *must* realise that the same person who brought in SH and Halsin... created the Red Prince. The Red Prince and his infamous romance.

Considering this, it becomes a lot harder to tell if, say a) Astarion's poly path is not a little fucked up on purpose, b) SH acts this way for something adjacent to shock value, c) the writer thinks Halsin and his lack of last minute commitment is fantastic, actually. This is absurd to even consider, but at the same time, you must. This is the person who says: a romance can be you, your one and only soulmate, the only person you ever dreamed of, literally! ... and. Err. The player. Who you have enslaved. This is the person you're asking at what level of obsession can a character be only monogamous. How and when a character can change their mind. The Red Prince's change of mind, in my limited opinion, did not actively make more "sense". This is a character where this writer said: "this is fine and I will change *nothing*". My hopes are... moderate for Bg3.

I don't disagree. It's still worth discussing though, and it's always worth having a bit of hope. Especially with the consideration that Halsin was added late as a romance partner, which means it is possible that it was added late enough that other characters had to be changed quick to fit a poly situation and therefore weren't written as well as they could've to fit that narrative. Though on a sidenote, I'd rather it stays this way than have them write Astarion and Shadowheart to be even more poly. At least this way it's easily avoidable and ignorable since it's just a minor annoyance that doesn't change the rest of the story. Very unfortunate for those that wanted Halsin to be more, though.

As for the Red Prince, I only played D:OS2 multiplayer and we all played custom characters. I did hear it was more hinted at that his romance would end the way it did though. Not that I even know how it ended, but I assume it was something people were not happy with.

Regardless, I'm happy with the work he did on Shadowheart otherwise. And while I am not at all attracted by a big bulky man like Halsin, I too enjoyed his writing for the first two acts.

When it comes to writing in storytelling, the audience will ultimately ask three questions:

1. So?
--does the audience *care* about what is happening?

2. Huh?
--does the audience *understand* what's happening?

3. Oh yeah?
--does the audience *believe* what's happening is plausible and makes sense?

What happens with Halsin/Shadowheart fails the test. This becomes clearer as more and more feedback pours in. If it's left as is in the game then it remains a major flaw.

Another thing about Shadowheart/Halsin that makes no sense to me is that she is in a vulnerable position. Halsin is introduced as a wise druid who cares about the well-being of others. Shadowheart is brainwashed and naive. And when she learns the truth she's in a fragile state. Why would a kind-hearted, mature druid take advantage of her for a cheap thrill? The answer is, he wouldn't. He'd want her to heal, get to know herself and grow.
I haven't romanced Shadowheart, nor will I ever, but I can understand this is double salty for players who do and then have Halsin insert himself into that relationship.

At the end I think its easily fixable at least for Shadowheart/Halsin situation(Im not well aware what is going on in Astarion/Halsin situation) without major rewriting.
Make it so Halsin doesn't insert himself in drow convo if you told him that you are not interested earlier(works for Astarion situation aswell I guess). Or make it play for anyone if you accepted his proposal. Also maybe supress his banter to Shadowheart after her romance scene. Remove disapproval message for Shadowheart if you reject his "little" company(Though it should never even play if you denied him already).Both types of players should be ok with that I think and it doesnt require much rewriting.

I don't think Halsin and Shadowhearts personal dynamics is very relevant to this discussion. The people invested in Halsin doesn't care much about Shadowheart either way.

But Halsin being a wise old druid who cares for the needs of others and at the same time someone who embodies and embraces rape culture is very inconsistent to me, regardless of whether this involves Shadowheart, Astarion or any other character or situation. It is also in poor taste that this person is forced upon us with no way of keeping him away, like I guess I just have to accept that I have this Steubenville frat boy in my camp now? Are there any Halsin fans on either side of this debate that like how this is designed?(other than the ones who just cover their eyes and ears and deny it or don't see rape culture as a problem)

Edit, to clarify the "evidence" to the case of rape culture to preempt pages of discussion involving willful denial or ignorance:

1. He acts as if he is entitled to sex and takes rejection as a personal insult
2. He assumes consent and approaches sexual discussions with the mindset that everyone's default state is that they want to have sex with him
3. He persists trying to convince people to have sex after they have said no, switching from jovial charm to other more manipulative and insidious tactics
4. He blames his victim for making him horny and gaslights them by re-framing previous interactions as them leading him on

This is far too many red flags to just be brushed off as exaggerated sensitivity or personal dislike. This is problematic.

I am very tired of discussing someone's identity and representation.
What I want to get from an affair with Halsen. I don't think anything will change, but the post is for opinions, isn't it
Just summarizing all my expectations.

1. Additional scenes with Halsin. For example, Halsey takes care of the animals in the camp.
2. There was a dialogue in EA, I don't remember him at the release, where we were wondering if he was comfortable in the camp and he says he misses his books Tav replies that he finds books all the time. I thought this topic could be developed.
3. Make a different dialogue about the relationship, now what he's saying is just awful.
4. Give Tav an opportunity to express his opinion about polygamy and monogamy
5. Allow the novel to develop according to a monogamous scenario.
6. Rewrite the ending, Halsin should pay more attention to the partner after the final battle. And I would like an opportunity for Tav to stay together with Halsin.

Here you go to sleep and return to what's essentially 100 post of angry. What a way to wake up. LOL


I fully agree with papercut_ninja fully here. Halsin is a clear case of rape culture, and I think it should be handled in one way or another. Either they make Halsin NOT adhere to rapeculture and actually makes him care for consent and take no for an answer. Emotional blackmail, gaslighting, and manipulation is not what I would have assumed the committed, wise man of ACT 1-2 would engage in. Or, as I mentioned somewhere before, there needs to be an option to call Halsin out on his behavior and kick him the hell out of your life and/or the camp. If Larian wants Halsin to be this guy, I want an option to let him know I won't accept it.

Agreed. There's no need to continue harping about identity politics or any such topic while we are discussing an already really inclusive game. Nobody cared that the rest of the camp is playersexual and not gay, lesbian, asexual, bisexual, and so on - but this fictional guy's opinion on open relationships must be preserved at all costs... no, thanks, but no thanks. And no, I don't think Halsin is a masterclass on inclusive writing.

I agree with what the others have summarised. Remove the odd sex pest dialogues (which don't even happen if you're solomancing him, what irony...) and the odd comments about his past in the Underdark, and so on.
Add an option to ask him to humor you by taking the relationship seriously, maybe a little bit of a different ending.
There's really not that much to add, and considering the monumental reaction from Halsin-enjoyers and Halsin-dislikers, Larian is bound to react somehow. And I don't think it's too much to ask, especially since Larian thrives on player feedback.

Didn't remember the line about books, but now that you mention it, something feels familiar about it. However, having him say that is somehow very sweet and I wish it had been left in together with the option to actually gift him books. Especially in ACT 3 when he struggles with the city.

Yes, I sent all the books I found to the camp. But the books theme has not been developed despite the potential. Tav and Halsin could discuss what they had read.

Also, a note on what someone said about how you couldn't tell the author that their character is acting out of character. You really can do that, and probably should in some circumstances.

As both a writer and a developmental editor, doing that is literally my job. As writers we write (obv ), then we need help from editors, readers etc. to let us know if something doesn't sit right. As an author it can be hard sometimes to tell if you're making your characters act the way they should. That's where the editor comes in. They will let you know that "hey, your guy here, he's not really making sense anymore. I don't think he'd do this here because of this and this". And so, the author revises and revises again until their vision and the character's personality fits together in a satisfying way.

Editors are a huge part of an authors writing process and those are the ones that'll tell you to "kill your darlings".

What we can see here, with Halsin, is a buildup that doesn't match the finale. Is that the author's fault? Well, not necessarily. And neither does it make him a bad writer. On the contrary, Halsin's writer is clearly talented, or else he wouldn't have succeeded in creating a character that render so many people disappointed by the finale.

It's more likely that the author had a clear vision for Halsin's journey throughout ACT 1-2 and spent a considerable amount of time perfecting that vision (with the help of editors, sensitivity readers etc). Then they realized people had fallen in love with the character and decided to write more for him. Here comes the problem.

These late additions were to be added to an already established character, and due to time constraints and a tight schedule (where the author probably also had A LOT of other things to write), Halsin's character didn't get enough working time, and not enough editor time to really match his earlier parts to the new ones. Hence, the discrepancy between ACT 1-2 Halsin and the guy in ACT 3. Halsin in ACT 3 is one big contradiction to the character we got to know in ACT 1-2 and that makes him hard to get a grip of. And I fail to see how THAT was a conscious decision from the writer. I strongly believe that this for the most part is due to rushed writing.

And to be fair, a lot of ACT 3 as a whole screams of rushed writing and poor execution. They were in a hurry, and it shows, both in general plot, as in character arcs, endings, and overall performance.

But, they can fix it. And I hope they will. It won't take much to tie up the loose ends and make Halsin make sense again.

I have something to write, I haven't read anything since my last post, but what I've read here so far has been a lot to my, actual comment.

There will be no either or! The game was released, Halsin will never be made like the others so he can be cool with a mono option, He can't even say relationship. There are players who celebrate him as he is, the players were upset about a cat...
I don't have to tell the main author this, because of course Larian knows that romance are great, as are "happy endings", and with other companions they made this possible.
Halsin shouldn't get any of this, Larian has released several games, including at least one romance that people didn't like.
When I see this thread and no the repetitions don't just come from Seho, and read what's going on here, then I realize, nothing will happen.
We're not the only ones here, there's also a part of the player community that likes it so much, only a compromise would be an option, but how things work here, as a developer I wouldn't do anything anymore, it's so toxic here, people aren't interested in compromises so that many people are/stay happy.

I would like a compromise at least. So that he respects your choice if you say NO to his poly proposal when you are already in relationship(SH/Astarion). Also at least make possibility for those who chose him as only or main romance to stay in the end with him (with some conditions like breaking up with your other romanced companions). This already will be much better.

It would be great to be able to give him a gift of a book like you can give Shadowheart gifts!

This is definitely still in the game. Becomes available after the tiefling party.