I don't understand why omeluum isn't a valid option instead of the emperor if you meet the criteria that you haven't killed him, sold the ring he gave you, took the ring from him, and if you saved him in the iron throne and meet up at the society.
From a story writer's perspective, it goes like this: you want something to happen, and then you make up reasons for it and event chains that actually make it happen. So the *primary* answer to "why must someone turn into a mind flayer" is that the story writer(s) at Larian wanted things to go that way, probably in order to make some point. Trust me, something this important almost never happens in a story unless it is explicitly desired by the writer. And the reason why Omeluum doesn't come in is because Omeluum would have made that what they wanted to happen less plausible.
True, because we'd have Omeluum as our mind flayer. And at the iron throne he already placed Ravengard's life above his own. And he's surprised when you save him. So, Omeluum has to get out of the way for the ending to happen. Even if I trust him a lot more than the Emperor. He's upfront with us from the start and all he does is nerd out with Blurg in the Underdark.
The problem with both games (Mass Effect 3 and BG 3 narratives) is the writers are using the game as a vehicle to create some type of profound meaning. This is all fine and good for passive media like movies. It is not great for games as being the 'only' option.
Spoiler (Companion Happy Ending Example)
Let's use poor Karlach as an example. You befriend her, come to know her character, and depending on preference even romance her. She becomes a staple of 'your' experience in the game. You strive to fix her engine. You enlist Dammon's aid. And then Larian with Deus ex Machina comes in and says (Absolutely not, she has to die or go to Avernus, no happy ending for you). In a game that takes 100+ hours for most players, I suspect quite a few want to have the catharsis of riding off into the sunset. Some don't, and so the other endings exist. But many I wager (including me) want to live happily ever after.
Larian could even make it very hard to get to that happy ending. For example:
- Save Barcus at the windmill - Save Barcus again at Grymforge - Get Barcus to come to your camp and chat it up with him during a few long rests - Work with Barcus at Last Light Inn - Save Wulbren at Moonrise - Get Wulbren's support in Act 3 along with Barcus to destroy the Foundry via a Runepowder bomb - Rescue every single one of the Gondians in the Iron Throne - Destroy the Steel Watch Foundry - When Wulbren comes to finish off the Gondians after the Foundry is destroyed, use your persuasion to have him removed as the Ironhands leader and replace him with Barcus - Gondians and Ironhands reconcile
(By the way EVERYTHING above is already in the game, nothing there would be new programming)
Then, as a way to say 'thank you', the only new thing would be the Gondians and Ironhands jointly, best metalworking gnomes on the planet, have the knowhow to take Dammon's work to the next level and fix Karlach's heart permanently. So not creating any new game scenarios. Just adding a layer of reward on a very deeply threaded set of side quests Act 1 to Act 3 which at any point if the player messes up, become undoable.
If Larian wants the player to sweat bullets to help Karlach stay on the Material Plane, make them go through what was outlined. It's not as easy as it sounds, especially on Tactician. Not only do you have to avoid these gnomes dying as collateral damage, you have to find them in the world through exploration.
Instead, Larian is trying to remove player agency at the tail end of the game, not provide it. It's an odd dynamic. For those of you who have seen the series Supernatural with the Winchesters, (Also spoilerville), it's what God did to Dean and Sam. First 14 seasons of the show they seemed to have agency but then it's revealed that it was all working toward a specific ending God had in mind. And Larian is the same way (not playing god of course, but rather wanting players to have a narrow set of endings according to how 'they' feel it should end.) There's so many of these. Shadowheart's parents. Lae'Zel if she swears to Vlaakith while being romanced trashing 80+ hours of gameplay work on that goal, having no way to bring Ansur around to your side even though you've persuaded liches, demons, devils, and undead to do your bidding. And yes, the whole Emperor/Orpheus Mindflayer decision. It's a bunch of bad options only. It's a bunch of key story points where Larian deprives players of true agency.
The reason it doesn't work is when you play through BG3, it's your game, not Larian's. And therefore for 'your' story, you may want to do that happy ending. Not everyone, but some people. I hope in time they add more autonomy to players for working towards endings that are meaningful to them.
Subsequent playthroughs I have stopped a couple of quests before it becomes a point of no return because I was so saddened by the railroading.
The emperer deciding to throw his toys out of the pram because we don't agree with him over Orpheus is utterly absurd. He hides, we talk, present the case to Orpheus for a temporary alliance. Orpheus is perfectly aware we need a mind flayer (although I don't get it at all) and if we don't have the Emperor he'll have to do it. Why on earth would he not agree? The Emperor didn't imprison him, that was Vlaakith 1, in fact he didn't even know about the prism till Gortash hoicked him away from Duke Tremayne and sent him back to the brain - which is all very recent. Ok we killed his honour guard a few days ago - he can shout at us later.....
Having to have anyone change into a mind flayer for some ridiculous reason is painful. Logically why do I even need a mindflayer? The reason presented to us in the game makes no sense. Orpheus already has the power to shut off its communications - that's the entire plot so far - so all we are really fighting is a big blob with a crown and no way to communicate with its minions.
So what it can think fast? So can we because we're a team and we can communicate with each other and by this time we are one big bunch of bad arsery. Or we ask Omeluum - we freed him, he owes us one and he lives in the city. Or we use Gale he doesn't have to turn into anything to set off a bomb - and neither does anyone else.
Choice has been taken away from us. In what should be the most important segment of the game we suddenly have little to no player agency. In other games this might not matter but this game so far has been full of meaningful choices and suddenly they are swept up into 3 or so railroaded, and all unpleasant, decisions. So whatever you end up doing at this point makes little to no sense, either narratively or what we know of the characters involved, based on what came before it. And it creates a massive dissonance and threw me right out of any form of belief in what I was doing.
This was exacerbated by the dock scenes which had to have been written by an office junior on the back of an envelope as they were devoid of any feeling while we watch Astarion become the butt of joke or Karlach burn to death/have to go Avernus. Or we kill ourselves and no one gives a damn. Others stand around making 'right guys, last one to the bar buys the round' type comments. What??? No options to sort out Karlachs heart with the Gondians before we even got to this point - which seems absurd given building this sort of stuff is what they do. Nothing to give Astarion some freedom to walk in the sun or be cured of vampirism in spite of all of this being possible in DnD5e Nope - guys we have to have bittersweet - because happy endings would be unwelcome by the developers for 'reasons'.
But it doesn't work because players don't understand some of the decisions, they make no logical sense because all of us can see other more obvious routes , so everyone is left unsatisfied and slightly unhappy about it all.
And then because the entire ending sequence is rushed, its all a muddled and uncaring mess devoid of any soul when the rest of the game, especially Act 1 was chock full of it.
Final ending scenes based arouind some random statue that I took no notice of when in the city - I'm utterly clueless why thats supposed to be the most important thing I want to know about. Yep ME3 ending - all its lacking are the colours.
None of it makes sense and for me I'll just not bother until either Larian or a modder sorts it out. As another poster said. In playing through this game it's now My Game, and like them I want options to work towards a happy ending for myself and those I care about (in my case Unascended Astarion but it applies to everyone and for everyone - more choice is necessary).
And Omeluum is a complete 180 from everything all the NPCs say about mindflayers, even Withers. It's very clear Omeluum is its own entity, and while the Society of Brilliance does seem to be a lawful evil organization (stealing eggs and what not from other species), it doesn't change the fact that Omeluum is everything that we're taught mindflayers are not by pretty much every other source in the game. So much story potential there that isn't given its due later.
As for changing into a mindflayer, what you said is right. At the 'ending' of the game, Larian wanted the story to go a certain way, even though through the entire game, they bent over backwards to let the player define the journey. It's strange and it pops up in a LOT of places. The writers think that it's cool we have this ambiguous or downright melancholy endings, and don't care if players want other 'options.'
Of course, in the real world this would be a massive problem. But I'm just talking story-wise.
Consequences differ in the sense that people here are fictional. But the issues remain.
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Yes, the narrator tells us the Emperor is unique. And he is.... until he isn't. As soon as you choose to free Orpheus he'll immediately switch sides and becomes everything he was fighting against. Through out the story he tells you that freedom is the most important thing to him. But when you play a character who thinks that freedom should also extend to Orpheus, he will join the brain because you didn't do things his way and thinks you're going to loose
And...? Don't you think that's incredibly bizarre? His entire life and life as an illithid has been about his desire for freedom. His endless travels and seafaring. His escapes from the Elder Brain. And now he gives up and joins it, after spending the entire game trying to convince you to destroy it?
See, THIS is where I think Larian's writing falls apart. From everything we know about the Emperor from the story, we know that his primary values are freedom and survival. So in a way, him joining the Netherbrain indicates that he thinks his chances of survival are better with it than with us. Yet, his pivot from freedom to survival is barely a 1 second line. When I tried it in my game, I barely even heard what he said, then he was gone. We SHOULD have been given a chance to persuade them to work together.
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And that leaves me to think that controlling you was a bigger motivator than the freedom he says he wants.
Controlling you to do what? He's not doing it for fun. It took massive risk and effort for him to communicate with us while he was fighting off both Orpheus' guards and the Brain's influence.
I get it that we have a problem with his treatment of Orpheus (I certainly hate it), but I find the game's handling of the dilemma, in particular, was unbalanced and inconsistent with the story's build up. They took what was a complex and compelling character, and reduced him to a generic villain, with very little we could do about it. It's incredibly disappointing.
Controlling you to do what? He's not doing it for fun. It took massive risk and effort for him to communicate with us while he was fighting off both Orpheus' guards and the Brain's influence.
Controlling you to survive. Do you know what he does when you approach that bridge to the Upper City and it's Gate? Have you tried ignoring his pleas to turn back? He takes control of your body and teleports you back, his words being "If you do not listen to reason, I will solve this myself". And for some reason it's the only time (aside from the first tadpole extraction from Edowin if you fail skillchecks - Durge has no skill checks for that btw.) he does take control of Tav.
Controlling you to do what? He's not doing it for fun. It took massive risk and effort for him to communicate with us while he was fighting off both Orpheus' guards and the Brain's influence.
Controlling you to survive. Do you know what he does when you approach that bridge to the Upper City and it's Gate? Have you tried ignoring his pleas to turn back? He takes control of your body and teleports you back, his words being "If you do not listen to reason, I will solve this myself". And for some reason it's the only time (aside from the first tadpole extraction from Edowin if you fail skillchecks - Durge has no skill checks for that btw.) he does take control of Tav.
That's because the Upper City is not a playable area.
And yes. He wants to survive and he wants you to survive. It's not a terrible goal, despite what you might think.
Controlling you to do what? He's not doing it for fun. It took massive risk and effort for him to communicate with us while he was fighting off both Orpheus' guards and the Brain's influence.
Controlling you to survive. Do you know what he does when you approach that bridge to the Upper City and it's Gate? Have you tried ignoring his pleas to turn back? He takes control of your body and teleports you back, his words being "If you do not listen to reason, I will solve this myself". And for some reason it's the only time (aside from the first tadpole extraction from Edowin if you fail skillchecks - Durge has no skill checks for that btw.) he does take control of Tav.
That's because the Upper City is not a playable area.
And yes. He wants to survive and he wants you to survive. It's not a terrible goal, despite what you might think.
Oh I know, Upper City is not a playable area. But Larian could've thought of something more elegant than just yeeting you 20 meters back and making it look as if the Emperor did it.
And survival is not a bad goal, but the question is: at what cost? Cough cough Orpheus cough cough
Of course, in the real world this would be a massive problem. But I'm just talking story-wise.
Consequences differ in the sense that people here are fictional. But the issues remain.
Quote
Yes, the narrator tells us the Emperor is unique. And he is.... until he isn't. As soon as you choose to free Orpheus he'll immediately switch sides and becomes everything he was fighting against. Through out the story he tells you that freedom is the most important thing to him. But when you play a character who thinks that freedom should also extend to Orpheus, he will join the brain because you didn't do things his way and thinks you're going to loose
And...? Don't you think that's incredibly bizarre? His entire life and life as an illithid has been about his desire for freedom. His endless travels and seafaring. His escapes from the Elder Brain. And now he gives up and joins it, after spending the entire game trying to convince you to destroy it?
See, THIS is where I think Larian's writing falls apart. From everything we know about the Emperor from the story, we know that his primary values are freedom and survival. So in a way, him joining the Netherbrain indicates that he thinks his chances of survival are better with it than with us. Yet, his pivot from freedom to survival is barely a 1 second line. When I tried it in my game, I barely even heard what he said, then he was gone. We SHOULD have been given a chance to persuade them to work together.
I get it that we have a problem with his treatment of Orpheus (I certainly hate it), but I find the game's handling of the dilemma, in particular, was unbalanced and inconsistent with the story's build up. They took what was a complex and compelling character, and reduced him to a generic villain, with very little we could do about it. It's incredibly disappointing.
But why? What changes if we free Orpheus? We still have the protection, the stones and the illithid, and we get another capable fighter. Considering how pragmatic and logical the Emperor was so far, he should be the one to suggest that we free Orpheus. And I am 100% sure Emperor is lying when he says "if we free Orpheus, he'll kill us".
And even if the Emperor and Orpheus can't work together, the Emperor could simply flee instead of joining the brain. Mind flayer have plane shift 1/day, so he could just bugger off to Avernus or the Astral where the Brain could not reach/find him.
And survival is not a bad goal, but the question is: at what cost? Cough cough Orpheus cough cough
Ah, Orpheus. The player favourite. He who can do no wrong. Son of Gith, who had pledged to conquer and enslave all planes of existence, and who will continue his mother's agenda.
By the way, the Emperor has never mind-controlled us, not for a moment.
And survival is not a bad goal, but the question is: at what cost? Cough cough Orpheus cough cough
Ah, Orpheus. The player favourite. He who can do no wrong. Son of Gith, who had pledged to conquer and enslave all planes of existence, and who will continue his mother's agenda.
By the way, the Emperor has never mind-controlled us, not for a moment.
Not the point. And a strawman.
I didn't have a problem with the Emperor until this point. We had an alliance of convenience, to which end I overlooked some fishy aspects of his history and the suspicion that his being a mind flayer might have tweaked his perspective a bit too much. Nor did I have a particular like for Orpheus, expecting him to be a typical githyanki but pragmatic about an alliance.
But suggesting to consume Orpheus' brain provided narrative evidence that he was, in fact, a mind flayer with a mind flayer's desires, and his perspective had indeed been tweaked too far from the human template to be trustworthy. And for the whole game, the story told us that being mind flayer meant to lose ourselves, and the Emperor, by this event, proved that to be correct. Apart from that, the story provided no in-world evidence that this was necessary. It was just the asserting of an entity whose words we could no longer trust. Acceding to the Emperor's demand thus feels like crossing a moral event horizon, the most significant act of unnecessary evil in this story.
The Emperor sounds more angry and controlling in act 3.
When you visit Raphael and he gets blocked out he will ask you in a demanding tone what happened. And he tells you he couldn't read your mind anymore. He never said that he could read your mind in the first place. So that's kind of controlling.
When you go in search for Ansur he basically tells us we're wasting our time. Then we find out it's because he has yet another thing to hide from us.
After we finish the House of Hope he snaps at us and calls us foolish. This would be reasonable if it was because of Raphael. But for him it's more about us acquiring the hammer.
He doesn't want to extend his protection to Minsc because he thinks he's beyond saving. Turns out that's not true.
But the silly thing is that he never says anything when we run around aimlessly trying to find all of Dribbles' body parts. Or put ourselves in danger with Mystic Carrion, etc. If the made the Emperor sound more like act 1 and 2 I'd probably be more trusting towards him.
And Omeluum is a complete 180 from everything all the NPCs say about mindflayers, even Withers. It's very clear Omeluum is its own entity, and while the Society of Brilliance does seem to be a lawful evil organization (stealing eggs and what not from other species), it doesn't change the fact that Omeluum is everything that we're taught mindflayers are not by pretty much every other source in the game. So much story potential there that isn't given its due later.
As for changing into a mindflayer, what you said is right. At the 'ending' of the game, Larian wanted the story to go a certain way, even though through the entire game, they bent over backwards to let the player define the journey. It's strange and it pops up in a LOT of places. The writers think that it's cool we have this ambiguous or downright melancholy endings, and don't care if players want other 'options.'
Speaking of Omeluum, I honestly expected some kind of twist with him up to the very end. We know that the Emperor broke free of the Brain two times, and both times he needed external help. First it was Ansur, then the Brain itself let him go (at least it says so). So, how did Omeluum break free? I fully expected him to turn out to be an agent of some other god, or something like that. But Omeluum was just forgotten in the end.
i would like to focus again on the reason(s) why this setup "someone must become a mind flayer" feels so bad. I think I have found the main culprit: the fact that these scenarios, as they are, turn the theme of your personal story, which you set by how you deal with the tadpoles, into its opposite.
The scenarios can be described like this:
(1) If you used the astral tadpole, your natural alliance is with the Emperor, and.....you don't need to become a mind flayer? (2) If you did not use any tadpoles, your natural alliance is with Orphaus, and....you must turn into a mind flayer?
These make absolutely no thematic sense. These events should be the culmination of your personal story, not its total turn around into its opposite. Consider instead these scenarios:
(1) If you used the astral tadpole, your natural alliance is with the Emperor, and you can only win as a mind flayer. (2) If you did not use any tadpoles, your natural alliance is with Orpheus, and you can only win as a human being (again, including all the playable races under the term for simplicity). (3) If you used tadpoles but not the astral tadpole, you must decide if you want to win as a mind-flayer (foregoing your humanity and allying with the Emperor) or a human being (foregoing all the mind powers and allying with Orpheus).
Now, would anyone have been surprised if you had to turn into a mind flayer after having absorbed the astral tadpole and already being something like a half-illithid? I suppose not. Instead, that would've felt to be a natural culmination of the decisions you had made so far. Don't like being a mind flayer? Well, shouldn't have used all those tadpoles. Perfect karma. Nor would anyone have been surprised if the Emperor turned away from you because you weren't illithid enough. A bit harder to contrive, but he was rather insistent on you using more tadpoles for some reason, and it would've made narrative sense.
As for how that could be contrived: You can do it by positing that Orpheus won't trust you if you're too much mind flayer, and vice versa with the Emperor, but here's a scenario that plays more on your nature: the Nether brain can be held down by your combined mind power. But the necessary gestalt mind can only form between compatible beings. The Emperor can only join with a mind flayer, Orpheus can not join with a mind flayer. You might be able to tweak the scenario by letting a party member join in your stead if you want to ally against your predisposition, but why would you want to? This is, after all, the culimination of the road you started walking a long time ago.
What does everyone think? Am I onto something here?
But suggesting to consume Orpheus' brain provided narrative evidence that he was, in fact, a mind flayer with a mind flayer's desires, and his perspective had indeed been tweaked too far from the human template to be trustworthy. And for the whole game, the story told us that being mind flayer meant to lose ourselves, and the Emperor, by this event, proved that to be correct. Apart from that, the story provided no in-world evidence that this was necessary. It was just the asserting of an entity whose words we could no longer trust. Acceding to the Emperor's demand thus feels like crossing a moral event horizon, the most significant act of unnecessary evil in this story.
I think it would be unreasonable to expect the Emperor NOT to be a mindflayer. Biologically, he is one and needs to consume brains. Even so, I am certain he has not lost himself. I think the game has made it rather clear that he is an exception, a unique mindflayer (in the words of the Narrator). What the game seemed to underline for me was that mindflayers in general lost their human side after transforming - but there are exceptions. It is possible for the human's consciousness to continue. After all, Ansur recognises Balduran in the Prism. Withers recognises us if we transform. There are always extraordinary individuals, and there is always hope we can rise above our nature.
Regarding the ending mechanic, we know we need Orpheus' power to resist the Netherbrain, plus a mindflayer's mind to dominate it. You may distrust it, but in-game, there is no option not to proceed without a mindflayer. I think that supports the argument that the Emperor's assertion is treated by the game as fact. You can say that it's a lazy way to write a plot, but we already know they were pressed for time in Act 3.
Anyway, my reference to Orpheus being the son of Gith is not a strawman, because the game is forcing us to choose between Orpheus and the Emperor, and is clouding the issue with questions of trust. I find it surprising that players are so willing to trust a person whom they know next to nothing about, save from some Githyanki propaganda disks, and to betray the person who had in fact been with them the entire journey, guiding them through the process needed to destroy the Netherbrain.
I think it would be unreasonable to expect the Emperor NOT to be a mindflayer. Biologically, he is one and needs to consume brains. Even so, I am certain he has not lost himself. I think the game has made it rather clear that he is an exception, a unique mindflayer (in the words of the Narrator). What the game seemed to underline for me was that mindflayers in general lost their human side after transforming - but there are exceptions. It is possible for the human's consciousness to continue. After all, Ansur recognises Balduran in the Prism. Withers recognises us if we transform. There are always extraordinary individuals, and there is always hope we can rise above our nature.
Regarding the ending mechanic, we know we need Orpheus' power to resist the Netherbrain, plus a mindflayer's mind to dominate it. You may distrust it, but in-game, there is no option not to proceed without a mindflayer. I think that supports the argument that the Emperor's assertion is treated by the game as fact. You can say that it's a lazy way to write a plot, but we already know they were pressed for time in Act 3.
Anyway, my reference to Orpheus being the son of Gith is not a strawman, because the game is forcing us to choose between Orpheus and the Emperor, and is clouding the issue with questions of trust. I find it surprising that players are so willing to trust a person whom they know next to nothing about, save from some Githyanki propaganda disks, and to betray the person who had in fact been with them the entire journey, guiding them through the process needed to destroy the Netherbrain.
We actually know quite a bit about Orpheus. We know he is a githyanki, which means he is 1) fiercely loyal to the cause and 2) really, really doesn't like illithids. These two things suggest that Orpheus can be a potential, and a rather useful ally. And if we choose to not immediately dump a potential ally, we are betraying the Emperor? Even if he is right and Orpheus will attack as once freed, we can just kill him and let the Emperor eat hsi brain. There's literally no reason to not free him, other than the Emperor being a bastard, which he was throughout the entire game.
i would like to focus again on the reason(s) why this setup "someone must become a mind flayer" feels so bad. I think I have found the main culprit: the fact that these scenarios, as they are, turn the theme of your personal story, which you set by how you deal with the tadpoles, into its opposite.
. . .
What does everyone think? Am I onto something here?
Well said. Yes, you are correct and I hope that Larian is reading this thread. I didn't play ME3 so I can't comment on that comparison but the ending feels like a defeat for the Tav who avoided "absorbing" tadpole and using the illithid powers. And it doesn't feel tragic - it's more bathos than pathos.
"well it seems that the uber-brain was really a nether-uber-brain and that means all your attempt to avoid become a mind flayer have failed. Also, dilithium crystals"
The ending needs to be revised and I hope that happens sooner rather than later.
[quote=Ieldra2] BI find it surprising that players are so willing to trust a person whom they know next to nothing about, save from some Githyanki propaganda disks, and to betray the person who had in fact been with them the entire journey, guiding them through the process needed to destroy the Netherbrain.
Those are our only options and the The Emperor lied to us and manipulated us. Load the appropriate saves or search on youtube - the Guardian gives us advice on where to find a cure while encouraging us to make the infection worse. As the book tells us judge a mind flayer by their deeds, not their words. The Emperor tells us they never lied to us but that's false - they were leading us down a path towards transforming into an illithid while dangling the promise of a cure in front our eyes.
And the emperor has clearly lost itself - it killed its best friend, destroyed the mind of a duke of baldur's gate and transformed from the roguish hero of the city into the leader of a front organization for a devil. There's a good deal of support for seeing the Emperor as an evil, soulless monster but, for some reason, that's not reflected in the dialogues you have with it.
Edit:
Here, in the third dream, the Guardian tells you he trying to cure himself and that you have given him an opportunity to find the cure he's been seeking for a long time. But, once your find Ansur you realize it's all a lie: he doesn't see the tadpole as infection but as evolution. He's been lying and manipulating us but we never get a chance to denounce him for that in a satisfying way. The take down of Raphel was infinitely more satisfying despite the fact that Raphel's manipulations were minor in comparison:
Last edited by KillerRabbit; 10/10/2305:13 PM. Reason: added youtube
We start our journey trying to get rid of the tadpole. If we put our faith in the Emperor then half way through our brain is filled with tadpoles. And then he even offers us a super tadpole. If we don't do it the Emperor's way... well too bad. You still have to become an Illithid.
On this matter the game wants you to put all eggs in one basket. Whereas the other quests often give you more options. Some of them including one that says we'll find another way.
