Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Criticism for Halsin's Drow Backstory

Trigger Warning: Heavy discussion of SA

Preface
I'm afraid to post this. It's hard opening up when a story's subject hits close to home. It leaves me open to criticism that I'm overreacting- that "it's just a story." I'd like to request openness and empathy while reading this. I tried posting about this subject on Reddit before and maybe that was my first mistake. These forums seem a bit kinder, though I'm still afraid of how people will take this. I don't mean to ruin anyone's fun, and I'm sorry.

An introduction to myself- I am an adult male victim of CSA and just general SA. I speak from experience but also from a wealth of literature on the subject of SA. I am by no means an academic expert, but I've studied the subject in an effort to make sense of myself and my life.

I've seen this mentioned in a different thread, but the thread's main topic was not about this. I wanted to draw direct attention to this topic and will try my best to respond.

Subject
In ACT III, Halsin has a dialogue about his past as a sex slave for a drow couple. That, in itself, is not a bad thing to write a story about. Astarion's story is a very good example of that kind of story and I appreciate it. However, how the scene is written and handled does not come off as respectful.

To be blunt; he speaks and remembers his time as a sex slave at least half-fondly. It is not in good taste and has made me not want to interact with the character at all. People often have conflicted feelings about their trauma, yes. This isn't a great way to portray that. Instead, it feels like a glamorization of a very real and terrible thing. Or at the very least it feels very dismissive or jokey.

I don't think anyone who likes the character is a bad person. I do not assume any malice on the part of the writers. If anything, I think it may just be a misinformed writing choice. I do not hate your favorite character. I'm not trying to make you feel bad. Please have an open heart and consider this.

If anyone at Larian reads this: Please consider taking another look at this scene. Perhaps consult a sensitivity reader if possible? I know that people on the internet like to mock sensitivity readers, but I think it would really benefit things.

Thank you for reading.

Fortunately or unfortunately I have not come across this in my playthroughs but I also have very little to do with Halsin in most of my play sessions.

I am sorry for your experiences as a SA victim and unfortunately this is a reality in both the game and in real life. But I agree it could have been handled better by Larian in the story. I did google the spoilers for that story arc in question and yes it is a bit... tasteless, to put it politely. But I am going to chalk it up to another one of the small criticisms I have with the games writing. Like the number of same sex couples that have biological children together... somehow.

First of all, I'm really sorry this happened to you. It's strong of you to speak up and I don't think you are overreacting.

I think the drow scene as a whole really needs some double checking considering some of the characters that can end up in it - namely Shadowheart, Astarion and Halsin. It's not handled very well for any of them, especially since all of them have a history of SA.

When I had the talk with Halsin afterwards I was most of all annoyed that they gave him this background at all. It was totally unnecessary for his character and does not add anything to him. We already have two companions where this topic is handled way better. SA should not be used as a trope.

And I agree with you that his reaction made it feel like he partly enjoyed it (or maybe he's just deflecting). If you speak to him when he propositions you he can tell you about the many lovers he has had and one line is a fond "and I went to the Underdark, many many times". At that time I thought he had gone there willingly. This made his reveal later even worse.

Act 3 Halsin is a mess. I think they should cut this part from his backstory since it is not handled with the respect it deserves and because it does not add anything to his character.

Agree!

We've hashed this over many times in the Story & Character forum, so I'll just say that I also agree - either address the subject fully and respectfully or cut it. This shouldn't be relegated to a couple of light-hearted throw-away lines.

Hey op, I'm sorry, this happened to you - in the last days, I saw a lot of people saying, the Halsin story makes them uncomfortable because they experienced SA themselves. You should take a look at the big Halsin trhead in Story & Characters, the last few sites. People do generally agree with you.
I haven't experienced that, because I'm not inetrested in Halsin as a character or those drow prostitutes, but from what I've heard, it is really bad, so it is good to call it out.

OP, thank you for your courage in bringing this up.

OP, thanks for your courage to bring this up. It's an important topic and I hope Larian will take the feedback seriously and make appropriate changes.


100% agree.

There´s just so much grey area in the writing around this that is difficult to interpret. Is it supposed to be playful? Lighthearted? Are the things revealed about the companions in these situations supposed to be a core aspect of their person, or just some fun sidejoke (like the bear sex)? Probably the latter, since there is no follow up where the MC can actually move forward and resolve anything and nothing changes in regards to the dynamics between the MC and their companions. It's just as if it never happened.

There's so many discussions where players are truly confused about the motivation of the writers here. In most other cases it is very apparent when the writing is supposed to be some on the nose joke or reference, but they just didn't manage to make that clear enough here. And if it's supposed to be a joke, yes, do a full sensitivity review of the whole thing. Yes, you can joke about serious matters, but then it has to be funny and everyone has to be in on it, I don't think this checks both those boxes.

I sincerely appreciate everyone's empathy here. It helps to know that other people have had concerns about the scene. I felt like I was going crazy for a while. I don't know if Larian actually sees these forums or anything, but I just hoped it would help.

That kind of got lost in the midst of... well, everything else, didn't it? The loss of control associated with his wild shape form. Which comes up twice, I believe, without being followed up on or addressed in any way, despite it being rather odd and concerning for an archdruid. Ah well.

I am so sorry. It was extremely triggering for me also. So much so I have had to delete that save and I can't play my favorite character anymore.

There is a thread here https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=879967&page=47

Where some of these things have been discussed.

I am so sorry

You're not crazy. My story is similar to yours, and I am two months after still having anxiety attacks and nightmares from the combination of traumas Halsin brought to life.

I thought Halsin would make me feel safe.

He made me feel entirely unsafe.

Honestly, your post there was what kind of gave me the courage to try and make this into its own discussion rather than part of the larger thread there. If anything, I should be thanking you. It feels less lonely knowing others have the same feelings as I do.

I really wanted to highlight this because I'm afraid it would be overlooked in favor of the more broad topic. I debated on putting this in Feedback or the Character/Story forum but I figured maybe Larian would have a better chance of seeing it here?

And I know what you mean. I was "lucky" enough that I saw a post about it before I encountered it myself. I abandoned the save I was playing too, because I thought his romance would be fun but- yeah. Now I really don't even want to interact with him in the story because it feels like I'm a joke or something, you know?

That's both lovely and heartbreaking. I am so so sorry. I have spoken out against how this was handled since the beginning and I have recieved no small amount of harrassment for it: I have been told my feelings are invalid, that I am not respectful of how different people handle trauma, and that me pointing it out (somehow) makes me a homophobe.

It's stories like yours that makes me take this without remorse, because I don't want you to feel alone and wrong in your own skin, as a safe place that is supposed to give you relief from all of this, turns into a nightmare.

I am sorry, and thank you for your courage. <3

I really appreciate this and I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with this. I got a lot of negative comments when I posted about this on reddit so I tried to be really clear that I'm not trying to upset anyone in my post. I've heard a lot of excuses for the scene and it just makes me feel so tired. Sometimes I don't even have the strength to argue.

If it helps, I don't think it's homophobic at all and have no idea how they got to that conclusion. I'm literally gay married to a man and I would have to give the most bad-faith, intentionally hostile reading of the criticism to get homophobia from it.

I admire your bravery for speaking up as well, and I hope you're doing alright.

Thank you so much. Halsin triggered like five traumas in me at once and I have experienced anxiety attacks and nightmares for the past two months as a result. It is slowly getting better, but BG3 was my place of calm, so I could face the difficulties in my life. With that now being associated with it, I am lacking my personal break space.

I am fine and get through the day, but I could certainly have done without this.

It's such a missed opportunity. We have several characters in the party (potentially) starting their recovery from abuse, sexual or otherwise, and here comes this wise, strong, reliable, respected leader who - we could've slowly found out - was also a victim of abuse, and is also on the road to recovery, though much further down that road. He could've been a symbol of healing and hope and a source of advice from someone who's already gone through what they're going through. But no. Instead it's all sex jokes and meme fodder.

You know, I didn't even think about this before, but that missed opportunity makes the drow orgy with Astarion and Halsin an even shittier choice.

Very good point. It was handled so poorly that it initially didn't occur to me. They could try a story like this but honestly, I'm sort of confused as to why this plot point for Halsin was ever needed in the first place.


I really tend to agree with this here. I actually like "Quest Halsin" for lack of a better term. All the stuff with the Druid's Grove and his quest in Act II were nice enough. "Companion Halsin" feels like a completely different character. Like, where did the guy who likes books and whittling duck figurines and who is academic and researching the tadpoles go? Of course, anyone can have trauma and if they really want him to have it, then as long as it's written well and respectfully, I don't mind. But it feels like they abandoned whatever character traits he had before and just shoved whatever they felt could be titillating or justify his hypersexuality in its place.

This doesn't feel like they even thought it through. No other part of his character seems to have been written with this in mind. People's experiences inform their choices and that would absolutely impact him even if he's healed from it. Mostly I just see people shrug and say it happened a long time ago so obviously he must be better. Or that the druids would have been supportive and helped him. That just seems like a lot of headcannoning in order to fit this into his story. It's never made clear that he has a strong emotional support system in the grove. If anything, he seems sort of isolated in his leadership position. And "it was a long time ago, get over it" is something that is too painful for me to be able to interact with, so hopefully someone else can explain why it's not great.

I don't want to derail into personal matters and details too much, but I do want to at least speak in support and understanding here. It's an attitude that I've seen and encountered a fair share of, and it's not good... because the reality is that we are shaped by the events in our lives, one way or another. Traumas like this; with time and healing, and support from those we care about, we can move forward in a healthy way, and perhaps it's no longer a source of trauma or pain... but it never "goes away"; it's always there, ever after, and you don't just 'get better' and have it be gone and forgotten... It will always have had an impact and be something that shaped us moving forward, and for many people, unfortunately, no matter how much time and healing may pass in between, reminders of things like this may never be too far from the surface. It doesn't always show on the surface, and maybe for some who have dealt with it and made those experiences a healthy part of who they now choose to be, it may never show on the surface... but it also never goes away. So to any who ever deal with these topics, in any form, please, try to be considerate. That's all I really want to say publicly on that, and to let others sharing stories in this thread know that they're heard and seen by another pair of eyes.

Thank you so much <3 Speaking out about this has been hard as we are oftened belittled by the community that say we are hypocrites for not seeing Halsin's statement and actions like valid trauma response.

But the re is difference between response and then being healed. Halsin has been in a state of hypersexual trauma response for 200+ years,bid this is to be viewed as such. And then pushes it down, and makes light of the suffering.bin a time where we have focus on sex trafficking and male SA victims, I find the lack of attention here deeply disturbing. Especially since most of Astrarions is handled with such compassion.

Ever since I first read about the scene and Halsin's background in the Underdark, it made me speechless how such a topic could be handled in the way Larian did.
I have never been a victom of SA but I had friends who had gone through abuse and it the conversation with Halsin made me feel ill. I didnt knew how to react to that and the more people speak about this topic, the more I I assure you my full support on this topic.
Its not much, but I want your voices to be heard.

It reminded me of the 'funny' 'fanservice' parts from the Wheel of TIme series involving Matt Cauthon and his 'relationship' with Queen Tylin. (if you read the books, you know what I'm talking about)

And not in a good way.

Look, I know SA is a well established part of drow culture that's kinda hard to dance around. And I know that kinky bondage stuff has it's own campy appeal. But the part of Halsin's backstory just sorta drops out of nowhere...goes into waaay too much detail seemingly for...comedic effect? It doesn't really go anywhere or serve any purpose. It also steps into that really uncomfortable 'SA is funny/good/playful troupe if it happens to a man and/or the abuser is attractive' territory.

It's bizarre how Larian made pains to avoid the issue with Minthara at the goblin party where she respects your decision to not go with her remarkably well compared to Phaere in BG II, and how generally well they handled Asterion's own issues, but then the Halsin stuff just stands out like a sore thumb.

I think I got similar (but lesser?) red flags about this when he mentioned it in one of my playthroughs, and I guess that owes to the ambiguity of the intention and presentation of this part of his backstory. It also feels like it is (or comes across as) an attempt to give players more reason to hate Drow, which feels disingenuous when a core part of this game is tackling racism (which it does well in some parts and poorly in others). I might have more thoughts on it if/when I get back to that scene, but I do think that even if it should be tweaked, his trauma response and some of his personality does make some sense for what he's been through.

Honestly, I'm surprised (both pleasantly and otherwise) by the response(s) to this subject. Also being a victim of abuse (not sexual, afaik) and having to deal with major pushback anywhere online about BG3's queer and fat implementation, it sparks hope but raises some eyebrows that the overall response was amenable to taking a second look at how Halsin/the game portrays his SA trauma as well as confessing your own.

Honestly I see where you are coming from but at the same time I do think it would not be right to remove his backstory just because not everyone can relate to/deal with trauma in the same way he does. or because people can get triggered.
Everyone deals with trauma differently and as time does not heal all wounds it often does help to process it and find coping mechanisms. Halsin is hundreds of years old and centuries past since the events occurred. He grew up, matured and "healed" from his trauma in the best way he could. But like everyone else he isn't perfect nor is the way he copes with it.

I don't see it as him mocking it or "Enjoying the trauma". But sometimes when traumatic events happen not all of it was bad. People in abusive relationships for example often have some happy memories to look back on. ( conscious or unconsciously) which is often why it is so hard for them to get out of the situation etc But we should not punish these people for having these feelings/memories. when they are discussing their trauma they have all the right to talk about that as well. Sometimes it can be even harder to talk about than the bad memories itself because people will judge them harshly for it. People often can/try to understand the pain but start to invalidate their trauma because it can't be "so bad" If you had "fun" as well. Or even go as far as saying they invalidate others trauma by talking about the fact that not all of it was horrible.

Speaking of the "good" is sometimes also done by people as a way to protect themselves. At times people make it seem less bad than it actually was to avoid shame or questions. But also to comfort themselves. Make themselves belief it wasn't so bad to make them feel better. Not saying that is a good thing to do but it is something that happens a lot so would not be a strange thing to add to a piece of dialog.

On top of that a lot of people deal with trauma the way he does and I am glad it's represented. It doesn't have to be done/discussed perfectly because not all stories and people are perfect. In real life these topics also get dealt with rather poorly at times sadly enough. Larian did a pretty good job of showing a range of different people, similar traumas/stories but different (trauma) responses. How you deal with trauma all depends on who you are, your environment, the help/support you got etc And there is not one right or wrong answer to it.

Many people who go through trauma learn how to talk about it in a "lighthearted" way. Sometimes as coping/as a shield sometimes because they healed enough to be able to do so. But being able to talk about it and heal doesn't mean it hasn't left traces and partially formed you into who you are today.

With SA for example some people become extremely avoidant while others become hyper sexual. Neither of these are necessarily good or bad. It just how one responds to what they went through. Some people even go back and forth between them. Some become exclusively monogamous others can no longer bind themselves. Just because you or I would not make the choices or say the things he says. Doesn't mean it's so horrible it has to be cut from the game. I do however agree that the timing of it is a bit off and rather unfortunate. A little heads up would have been nice and it could have been done at a different time or maybe even in a cut scene like astarions grave scene. (with or without the spice) I do like that they touch upon his backstory and it explains so much about him and his choices. But I do wish we got more of it. Maybe even finding the place in the underdark, finding a book or something to spark the conversation, get context. Being able to know how the story ended, tell him they were dead or something. Just more than we have right now because I agree that it feels rushed and out of the blue.

While I appreciate the care you took to make this reply, I'm going to have to disagree on a lot of the points here unfortunately. The first of which is that it explains so much about him and his choices. I genuinely do not get the impression that Halsin was ever written this way until the push to make him a companion and the de-evolution of his character into a horny caricature in Act III. At no point does it feel like this backstory is even relevant to the rest of the character. I've heard the suggestion that he doesn't care because he's hundreds of years old before and it was a short time a long time ago. I was there when a man who must have been in his 60s called a hotline because of the Pennsylvania Catholic Church SA thing a few years ago and listened to him describe how it stayed with him all these years later. I have read plenty of books on SA, Human Trafficking, and United States Slave Narratives where SA was a topic. I'm struggling here to even put into words the ways the Halsin scene is so horribly different.

Larian did a great job with different characters showing the complexities of trauma. Karlach's internal struggle with the use of soul coins because she needs to believe it's okay as a coping mechanism. All of the cult indoctrination from both Lae'zel and Shadowheart. Astarion's whole deal. This particular one is the outlier. Part of it does have to do with the absolutely abysmal timing of the scene. A presumably emotionally intelligent, wise, centuries-old druid wouldn't choose such a bad time to discuss this.

I understand that you don't read it as being dismissive or jokey. As a male victim of SA, I am extremely tuned into the subtle and not-so-subtle ways people mock male victims. In the same way a guy may fail to notice misogynistic undertones to conversations because has not learned to listen for it, I feel like there are 'dogwhistles' for lack of a better term in this scene that some people might not be picking up on. It's frustrating because I don't feel like I have adequate tools to describe my point right now. I don't want to come off as harsh or combative or anything like that. I just want to be able to be understood.

I hope it's alright to post an update here, given that there has been some new information found through datamining:

Changed Dialogue for Drow Scene

I admit that this is... better. It certainly brings it down from mockery into something more sincerely handled. It seems to be enough for some people. I'm still uncomfortable, but I'm also still sort of processing it and gathering my feelings on it. I don't want to respond too rashly to fresh information without giving it full consideration. I'll probably just add an edit to this post to flesh out my thoughts unless others have more to add. Importantly, this is still just datamined and not guaranteed to be part of the final product.

How I wish for SH changes now regarding Halsin and maybe Mizora cheat reaction.

I'm glad that there are at least some changes in sight.

Like I said in the other thread, I am overall very happy with this update, with two concerns (which I'm sure will be addressed.) The most important thing here that I want to express is gratitude that Larian listened to us and worked so quickly to fix the scene. This did a lot in easing the hurt feelings i had after seeing this scene for the first time. it is far more than most game companies would have done.

That said, I do have some lingering concerns about the new updates to the scene, again, as I said in the other thread. Firstly, the way the player can talk to him is way too harsh, and I don't like that Halsin ends up apologizing for his own feelings about his own captivity. It is painfully in character for him, perhaps, but it makes me feel uncomfortable all the same. I think a better way for the player to address their concerns to Halsin would be in the form of questions: "that sounds traumatic. Do you need to talk about it?" "That sounds traumatic. Are you sure it isn't bothering you?" instead of what sounds like commands for Halsin to react differently.

Second... that line a Lolth Drow can give. It IS an amazing evil character dialogue, but I worry about it because Halsin responds so... almost like he doesn't realize the player just threatened to sell him back into slavery? Maybe it's meant to be a joke, but even THAT is horrible in a different way. I really hope this line is treated as the purely evil thing it is, with the appropriate consequences; Halsin should immediately break up with the player if romanced, and take a heavy loss of approval regardless (possibly with any other nearby companions disproving as well.) It definitely should not jump to the conversation node where Halsin thanks the player four counseling him. (I feel like that might have just been an oversight, but the idea of Halsin being threatened with being returned to sexual slavery and then going "thanks for letting me confide in you <3" is absurd). Basically- please give this line the weight it deserves, treat it like it is. Threatening a former sex slave with being returned to his captors, even if they are long dead, is such a purely evil thing and the companions need to act to the player the same way they would other such evil deeds.

But overall, I am so happy to see some things in this scene, which were what my own headcanons had been, more or less (along with a lot of Stockholm Syndrome). This man has been so stressed out by his Archdruidic duties that thinking of his days of slavery became a fantasy, not because he actually enjoyed any of it, but because the idea of not being responsible for anything was comforting. It sounds repulsive, but it is known to happen in real with people who have lost their freedom and agency, such as prisoners. So that explanation worked well enough for me. Then him talking to the player... god, Larian. Please let me take care of this cinnamon roll MORE. Let me hug him, wrap a blanket around his shoulders, and give him a steaming cup of soup. He needs and deserves it, and he has been without for over a hundred years. You can't do this to me. Let me CARE THE ELF please

Thanks for stopping by to discuss! Full disclosure I'm a bit sleep deprived so my thoughts might not be as coherent as I'd like. There's something still bothering me about the scene beyond the points you've mentioned, but I'm having difficulty verbalizing the feeling. In general, I agree with the points you made about your current concerns, especially concerning him breaking up if you choose the evil option.

I think I'm not reading the same things into the scene as you are, however, specifically in the passage I highlighted above. The part about feeling a sense of reverie towards his enslavement because he was not responsible for anything and that comforted him- that wasn't what I got from the conversation. I'm not even sure what he said to give that impression. I worry that perhaps some inference and headcanon are cushioning what the base text is on its own. As it currently stands I see some improvement but it still gives me pause.

The timing of the scene is still... pretty terrible if I'm honest. I hate that the conversation comes after the sexual encounter. The dialogue feels clumsy, too. The whole thing just feels narratively bizarre and off-putting. Honestly, I wish there were an option to tell Halsin to leave at the end of Act II. I apologize. Your username implies that you're pretty attached to the character so I don't want to speak too ill about this whole thing.

That's fine- you don't have to agree. I was just saying my perspective here. I have found that sometimes survivors of multiple traumas will, in the midst of their current one, romanticize the past one in their heads. It's a form of control-taking through mental narrative. If you don't see that in him, there's no law saying you have to agree or anything. You just wanted to know what I thought, and that is indeed what I thought. *Shrugs*


In terms of narrative? It sucks it came after sex. But I find that to be a realistic thing. Don't want to say too much in case it smacks too much of headcanon, but I find it to be true to life in some ways. The dialogue options are clumsy at times, though, I agree. And as for telling him to leave, well, you may get your wish
I am very attached to the character but I don't think my interpretations are the be-all-end-all. Again, I posted here because you asked me to, I'm not going to be offended if you don't happen to agree with me on an issue here, lol. I'm more thick skinned than that.

Thank you for your patience. I tend to be overly cautious of people's feelings- especially online. And it's nice to get to talk about it, even if we don't agree. I can understand how you draw your conclusions, but I also feel like for a more general audience it may not be readily apparent. If that's the intended reading, I believe it should be made more apparent due to the sensitive nature of the topic. For example, someone may experience this interaction and only have the surface level interpretation that he's not terribly upset about it all. Since it's a topic (the specific intersection of male and SA victim) that is underrepresented in media, I feel like it can perpetuate harmful stereotypes about masculinity and victimhood and have a generally negative impact.

That, I definitely agree with!

First of all, I think it's brave of you to come on here to express your concerns. I am not a man, but I grew up predominantly around boys and young men and that definitely gave me a unique window into the harmful ideas perpetrated between men and boys about SA. While I myself am a survivor too, again my voice in this conversation is only lent to amplify yours, which is arguably more important.

I got this scene yesterday and it also left a bad taste in my mouth. People use the argument of "well he is old and it was a long time ago"...

He spent 3 years
That sort of trauma does not just get better with time if you ignore it. And again I get that people respond differently and there are different trauma responses, but I do believe this should be addressed in that conversation, that this is not healthy. My hopes for the datamined dialogue is that it has not made this patch because it is a draft and will be further worked on. But it is some improvement!

I feel like Halsin with some work in how that revelation is addressed can become a source of healing to many in the same way Astarion is, but not by just joking about it and Tav just stands there like "alrighty then, if you say you enjoyed it!".

As a side note, I also hope we get a modification in the Astarion drow scene, where we can pass an insight check and stop it halfway through once we realise . Enthusiastic consent is generally already implemented in the game (you always have like 3 chances to back out before any intimacy scene, not to mention my Tav nodding to give permission for some acts during the scenes thrmself). I see no reason why there its just "welp, I guess I'm stuck doing that even though I noticed he is not enjoying himself".

I know some will feel that this is too much "fanon" or "headcanon". But really, the differences in Astarion and Halsin's responses to sexual trauma are such perfect foils that I just can't believe it was ENTIRELY on accident. So here's the long analysis I wrote out about it, posted with the acknowledgement that few here are going to agree. But I wanted to share regardless.

When characters are foils, there are two components: first, there's a shared background, event, personality trait, etc. But how the characters act from then on are diametrically opposed, allowing us an insight into the various ways people can act or respond to one core "element". In this case, I would argue that Halsin and Astarion are meant to be foils in their responses to sexual slavery.

Both Astarion and Halsin were denied their freedom and agency, raped and abused. Both were very young when this happened; Astarion was in his 30s, which is before elves are considered to reach their majority, while Halsin's age wasn't specified, but he goes out of his way to mention "youth" many times. In other words- both were young enough for this to be a formative memory for them. Both carry deep traumas from their experiences. Both are incredibly physically attractive, and allude to or outright say that their looks played a part in their captivity; Astaron was used to seduce others for Cazador, while Halsin notes that his Drow captors "took an interest in him" and saw him "as a novelty"- most likely for his looks as much as for his race. Both were raped by people of high social status- Cazador a wealthy influential figure in Baldur's Gate, and Halsin's captors high-ranking Drow nobles. That is what they have in common.

But their responses to their traumas are complete opposites.

First, just the nature of how they express their traumas. Astarion is LOUD about it. He expresses it all openly; he is traumatized. And he knows he didn't deserve what happened to him.

Halsin buries it. He pretends it was no big deal. He victim-blames himself, saying it was his fault for being a "foolhardy young Druid" intent on seeing the Underdark.

Astarion despises Cazador; he wants revenge. He will do anything to get revenge on his abuser. This need for closure is the core of Astarion's entire arc, to the point that of all the scenarios I can think of where Astarion leaves, most of them involve his journey to kill Cazador.

Halsin has trauma bonds (also known as Stockholm Syndrome.) He speaks kindly of his captors even when describing their abuse. He says he feared for his life, but he "did some things that were less than necessary," making it sound like he was complicit in his own rape. He can't even bring himself to call them captors (except for one option in the new datamined dialogue), nor himself a sex slave; instead, he was something "between a guest, prisoner, and consort."

Astarion is (in most cases) ultimately allowed closure; he kills Cazador. In the bad path, he then joins the cycle of abuse by killing the other vampires; in good scenarios, he only kills Cazador, and then has a cathartic, tearful breakdown after.

Halsin never had (or seemed to want) that closure; he escaped while his captors were fighting another noble house, and his freedom was all he wanted. Whether his captors lived or not, he doesn't care.

Astarion is younger, and his trauma a shorter time ago, yet he has processed what happened more; he is both further ahead and further behind on his healing journey than Halsin.

Halsin is older, and his trauma longer ago, but he hasn't processed what happened to him; bouncing from trauma to trauma and being forced into a leadership role caused him to have to bury it. He is both further behind and further ahead on his healing journey than Astarion.

Astarion makes a point of avoiding intimacy; he only has a few exceptions with the player. (Ascended Astarion becomes much more confident, but that's a bit different.)

Halsin is incredibly sexually open. He enjoys sex of all kinds; he finds it comforting, the only way he can openly express his emotions after having to stay in control as Archdruid all the time.

Astarion dissociates during the Drow brothel orgy. He is miserable and uncomfortable, but doesn't regret it; he needed to take the step to explore his sexuality on his terms. Even if it triggered him, he still wanted the experience, and indeed, finding what one's triggers are is an important step for many survivors.

Halsin enjoys himself during the orgy, and even seems pleased after, but then he lets the cracks show, talking about how he was held as a slave. He enjoyed it during, but after, the thoughts started creeping in, as he was reminded of his captivity.

Astarion will respond to cruel player comments about Cazador with a massive hit in approval, and possibly breaking up with a romanced player, like when they say they have a kidnapping fantasy about him if he's kidnapped by the spawn.

Halsin, in the new dialogue options, doesn't seem to react that much even to cruel comments; when the player threatens to sell him back into slavery, all he has to say is, "you would be unwise to attempt it, trust me. In any case, the house of my captors is long-extinct." (Followed by him having an epiphany that they WERE his captors) He never gets angry at the player despite the absolute evil of this option; as with nearly every other mean thing the player says to him, he simply shrugs it off, clearly sad but brushing it off as always. Being the "bigger person", literally and metaphorically.

Astarion was left with scars all over his back, symbolizing how this is something he'll never break free from entirely.

Halsin was left with no scars, his only prominent being from an unrelated incident, symbolizing how much work he puts in to hide his traumas.

It's understated and perhaps unintentional, yes, but still there.

HUGE agree with this. I wish we at least had an option about it. I don't mind that it happens, but it feels callous to pass the insight check and then just shrug and keep going.

I don't mean to discourage you from having your interpretation and thank you for sharing. It's good to have a discussion about it. There are a few points I wanted to talk about in particular. Specifically:

I don't think it's accurate to characterize Astarion as avoiding intimacy for the most part. He is not sex averse (only ever describing nonconsensual encounters negatively) and only temporarily avoids intimacy while re-examining his boundaries now that he's in a place to be able to do so. Once he's done with this self-examination (i.e. after his personal quest), he will conclude that he DOES want intimacy and sleep with a romanced player regardless of Ascension status. He will actually sleep with Lae'zel at the tiefling party under certain circumstances. Just because he has used sex as a tool or felt negatively toward nonconsensual sex doesn't mean he doesn't like sex. He just isn't only sex. Aside from the time when he's doing introspection, Astarion is hypersexual. Sure, it's a defense mechanism, but the argument is that Halsin's hypersexuality is also a trauma response so I think it's fair to point it out.

Honestly, I think the fact that Halsin's dialogue was changed for this scene indicates that they didn't really have a solid plan for it. They didn't consider the full implications of the scene. What I would give to just ask the author "why?" Why was it necessary to do this?

Because here's the thing- It's not hard to find male victims in media who downplay their sexual assault. That is basically the only archetype of male victim there is. There are a couple of ways women have been portrayed as victims, many of which are problematic or weird, but men only get the "bottle it up and downplay it" option. Many of the examples in books, when the writer even bothers to consider what happened an assault, are from romance or erotica books which bring their own set of sexualization and problems to the subject. Often it isn't even really treated as sexual assault- the author treated the Mat and Tylin section of the Wheel of Time books as a joke, and certain viewers of Midsommar thought Christian deserved to be murdered for "cheating" and generally being a bad boyfriend. Frequently, it will be brought up once or twice in the narrative, change nothing, and never be mentioned again. Fanfiction is an exception because it sometimes places male victims in the role of "sex averse damsel" which is itself a problematic trope typically reserved for female characters.

And the repressed, brought up exactly once in the narrative, downplaying, "lol it was sexy and I kinda liked it" pocket is exactly where Halsin fell. Even the revisions don't fully address the issue and it's just a short conversation. You could attribute plenty of things to it after the fact, but I personally don't trust that he was ever written with this in mind. I can completely see an author writing a hypersexual character with no sexual trauma needed and then throwing this in as a joke. Because male sexual assault is frequently a joke. I'm sure it's prevalent enough that I don't need to, but here's a good video with plenty of examples and analysis up to 2018 which was recent when this video was released: [Pop Culture Detective - Sexual Assault of Men Played for Laughs] To be clear, the underlying joke was that Halsin was a big dude who got assaulted, but also "haha sex slaves are kinky and sexy." And while the rewrite alleviates this, it doesn't fully solve the issue. It's just a lot to unpack and hard to untangle from the initial incarnation of the scene. It's why I really just don't understand the purpose of this narratively or why it has to remain included in the story.

Edit: Upon rewatching [Part 2] Is even more relevant and has a lot of well-explained and powerful lines, and I encourage a watch for anyone who is comfortable doing so.

Now that I've made an account here, I just want to leave a reply saying I support the suggestions to give the scene and dialogue another look-over (which, going by data-mined content, they seem to be doing!) I've seen various people on other social media interpreting his dialogue as a trauma survivor downplaying what happened to him as coping mechanism, but to me I think that's a lot of headcanoning being taken too seriously. To me it just came across as a very jarring attempt at light-hearted sexual humor (because, yeah, sexual violence towards men is treated largely like a joke, or even a positive thing if the abuser is an attractive woman), which... is an unfortunate amount of Halsin's dialogue, in my opinion. Like after adding him as a long-term companion in response to fan feedback, the writer in charge of him couldn't think of anything else to write but jokes about how often he gets down.

I'm not against him having the backstory in any way (personally I am interested in the backstory and ways it could be explored if written with more tact and care), I just would like it to be treated as less of a joke, whatever that ends up entailing in terms of additional dialogue or rewriting dialogue. It seems like they're adding additional dialogue to give the joke more depth and examine it as an actual traumatic experience. I'm not gonna judge whether the writing for that dialogue is good or not, in my opinion at least, until a finalized version is live, though. And I do appreciate that writers at Larian DO see the feedback and player discomfort around this, and are re-examining how the joke came across. Not a lot of video game developers would bother or care enough to do that.

Oh, I haven't seen this thread. Interesting.
First of all, I sympathise OP and people who had traumatic experience. I had no such experience, but I have people around me who had.
Concidering that this scene ended up being very controversial, I would also agree with people who would like it to be completely removed from the game. I have a feeling it was added as a joke, as something "spicy" to make Halsin look even more of a sex machine (in some way). Many people don't like the whole idea of overly sexualized Halsin at all, especially people who have seen Halsin's Early Access version and wanted this particular elf to be their companion and LI (for some reasons Larian decided to change him though his characted was already good. I have EA version right now and yes, Halsin was different).
About backstory... Well, Halsin should've had a backstory, an interesting and dramatic one. His story was intertwined with Thorm family, some pieces existed in EA like a debuff of his glaive, Sorrow which deals psycic damage each time the wielder deals damage (it is still in the game but has no debuff) and a note where he writes about Ketheric (it could've been found in the Grove's library). He could've had strong story, personal tragedy (originaly he was the one who killed Isobel, but we don't know how exactly it had happened), his connetcion with the plot of Act 2 could've been mych tighter and in the end Tav could've helped him to atone and live through it (which could be a nice start of their romance).

What can I say but that I agree with all of that. But it's probably too late and I can't imagine getting all that, as much as I would like to see it. (Prove me wrong, Larian, I double dog dare you.)

But the drow thing could certainly be fixed.

Recently I've seen people say that rather than the writing being improved, Halsin's Drow backstory should be removed entirely. This upsets me for two reasons: 1. I worry that Larian will actually do it, and 2. The reasons they give are often awful, saying that Halsin is "too respectable a character" to have had something "scandalous" like rape in his backstory (I shouldn't have to explain why that's awful) and very similar sentiments, "a wise Druid shouldn't have that in his story, it's OOC" as though rape is characterization and not an event that can happen to ANYONE. I like what Halsin represents- the idea of a survivor victim-blaming themself, a survivor who still happily enjoys sex (to counter the narrative that the only "good" rape victim swears off sex forever), a strong male survivor who was raped by women (and not being a South Park esque "nice" joke.) I want the scene to be adjusted to be more sensitive, yes, but i would be absolutely devastated if Halsin was removed as representation for survivors.

All the more so because when I bring that up, people say "you already have Astarion", but Halsin's story showed so many things that don't get shown in hardly any stories, let alone Astarion's. It is so rare to see a hypersexual survivor depicted in media without them being intensely slut shamed by the narrative- Halsin has been such a unique approach. I hope Larian fixes the scene instead of removing it. Like I said, I would be absolutely gutted if they did so.

From what I saw, your feedback and the feedback on Discord from people you seem to be connected with has been deleted (either by you or Larian) and at the time of it being deleted, it had only a few upvotes compared to other Halsin feedback. So I guess you have to face the truth: People have another opinion that you. I saw several posts of you and while I am always glad if people write feedback, I feel like you need to accept that most players don't want Halsin to have that.

At the time of being deleted, my post had only been up for a few hours. And likes on a post really isn't the best way to gauge dis/popularity of a concept either; I've seen other posts expressing the same idea as me get 60 likes while posts expressing your opinion get maybe 10. And each person also has their own motivations for clicking like; it might be the idea expressed in the post, or it might be how the post is written. A post saying the game shouldn't include therapy concepts got 30 likes, which by your reasoning would mean that more people don't want Astarion's sexual assault storyline to be part of the game either since that also falls under the heading of a therapy issue. And since i've never seen a post about Astarion's sexual assault, by default that would mean more people don't like Astarion's sexual assault than do, using that metric of "liking". We both know that isn't true- so "likes on a few posts on one Discord" is clearly not the metric to decide how liked or not a storyline is, let alone what the fix for that story should be.

Speaking only for myself, as someone who has kind of a personal stake in these narratives, I'd like Halsin to keep the backstory. Dialogue added to give it more depth beyond the off-hand joke it currently is is all it really needs, in my opinion. And that's what Larian seem to be doing going off datamined content. I like seeing more representation of trauma survivors, especially when they're not typically what's presented in media (like a very strong, powerful male character like Halsin who is otherwise comfortable with his sexuality), and I know that the writing team is capable of doing these kinds of trauma narratives justice based on other characters with sexual trauma in their backstories in the game. I'm hopeful to see how things change for his backstory when datamined content is finalized and ultimately added to the live version of the game.

I wholehearted agree with the OP, and as many times as this has come up, I think many do.

To have it make sense to me, I have to view it as a coping mechanism, if one that shows his healing is unresolved.

I doubt that the few votes on Discord are not decisive in changing/removing something.
Maybe the thousands of pictures and comments on social media, but it's up to Larian and the world of BG.
I don't think much of this thing, but there were people who wanted more content.

Well, there are many topict about Halsin on Reddit (probaly not the best place in the Internet but the audience there is massive and I hope Larian team read threads there) and hundreds comments inside of them. I checked a topic "Least Liked Companions Voting", for example, with a poll and Halsin is #1 mostly because: people don't know what to do with him, he is boring and needs to be polished and for some he is no more that a sex pest. So, he, for sure, needs more content, especially in Act 3.

Astarion's story of abuse goes through the whole game. Halsin has only one dialogue which appears out of nowhere and under very unexpected circumstanses. Again, I am pretty sure John wrote this dialogue only as a joke to give Halsin more points for being "sex machine" and not because he wanted to make him a survivor, but it seems the guy just used a very wrong tool. Otherwise we would not have such topics and reactions at all. But yes, only John knows the right answer.

The reasoning against expanding Halsin's storyline, that some people gave, was "the game isn't therapy." So if that is the reason, and it isn't just another way of saying "I just don't want Halsin to have a sympathetic story" (which is the actual reason for many saying this) then they would hate Astarion's story even more, because it is therapy throughout his entire story instead of just one scene. That's what I was referring to. If people don't like it because they think it's offensive, that's a different argument, and I still don't think removing it is right. If someone writes a gay character who is a stereotype, the answer to any hurt feelings is to fix the character's portrayal, not to make them straight instead. If nothing else, the latter would be rugsweeping; instead of acknowledging the hurt feelings, they would pretend it never happened, and that isn't how you repair hurt feelings.

If someone writes something thoughtlessly as a joke that is offensive, I would prefer they issue an apology and remove the joke rather than double down and attempt to justify their mistake. Trying to salvage something sincere out of a rape joke really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The fact that so many people need to headcanon that he's using sex as a coping mechanism to 'fix' the narrative to be something less offensive is awful. Similarly, I find 'it happened 200 years ago' to be a lazy excuse for writing something offensive. It's so easy to say that elves live a long time and wash their hands of any narrative issues because it's a fantasy world. That smacks of wanting to have your cake (throw in a little sexual slavery for background spice) and eat it too (not have to deal with any repercussions for doing so.) A rape joke spinning it's wheels to try and become something legitimate is not good representation. It feels more like an attempt to save face.

I understand your desire for representation. If it helps any and you're looking for male representation of victims who are not sex repulsed, here's a list. Please note that these portrayals are of varying quality and listen in no particular order. [Spoilers for the respective stories.] Again, that's all male victims and published work of various media. I could expand to female victims and fanfiction if necessary.

I feel like using Archer as an example of a non-offensive portrayal of male sexual assault survivors misses the mark, considering it is absolutely played as a joke several times throughout that show, even with other characters. Archer's an adult comedy, after all, it is full of tasteless jokes ranging from making fun of sexual assault to making fun of people of color and LGBT people (the 'trans panic' joke episode, as an example.) The Wheel of Time series of books eroticizes sexual assault experienced by female characters, while using sexual assault against men as a moment of horror due to how it is treated as "emasculating" for a man to be forced into sex. As a male survivor of sexual assault, I would not point to either of these series as good "representation" of sexual assault against men, or anyone, at all, in any way. While I like Mysterious Skin, I also would not think to ever compare the character in it to a character like Halsin- Mysterious Skin has its own mountains of criticisms leveled at it by gay survivors and sex workers over the decades.

And survivors all have different opinions so if someone disagrees with me that's fine. It means we have come to very different places of viewing things after our experiences.

But speaking as a male sexual assault survivor, I'd personally much rather Larian not erase the backstory they ended up giving Halsin with the one-off dialogue we are discussing, and actually buckle down and take it seriously, because I'd rather have this example of a male sexual assault survivor we rarely get to otherwise see in media. Halsin is strong, powerful, good-hearted, well-respected, physically intimidating, and it still happened to him. It's meaningful to have those kinds of narratives in mainstream media. Larian is attempting to rewrite it to give it due weight and I greatly appreciate their efforts, and look forward to seeing the changes made.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. I should have been more clear about the 'varying quality' line. Some of these are awful examples, but if the idea is purely to have a male victim who is not sex repulsed then ehhh. Most of the healthier examples aren't so simplistic. Which brings me to my point that Halsin's is simplistic and the same kind of eroticized sexual assault from the Wheel of Time. The fact is that a lot of sexual violence towards men in media is eroticized just like Halsin's was. Unless there is some serious re-writing, sprucing up a 'sexy' rape joke isn't going to make it okay.

Turning the analysis back to Archer, I would also argue that it would be better if the assault had never been written either. Or the entire thing from the Wheel of Time. This is also coming from a male victim who is desperate to see some representation that I scan through media to try and feel related to. We can aspire to have something better than someone backtracking on an "off-color" joke.

Absolutely agree with what was said here. Having THESE pointed out as "better" alternatives for representation for male victims of sexual assault feels disingenuous at best, and outright insulting at worst. These are not in any way better representation than Halsin. Those were written with active ill intent, while this was simply poor writing they are trying to fix.

As I said, these depictions are of varying quality, which means that some are not good and some are decent.

A Cruel God Reigns is often considered to be a sensitive portrayal of domestic abuse and assault, though it is not without fault and I personally have some big issues with it. The Kite Runner is typically well-regarded. Mysterious Skin falls into the obnoxious "gay predator" stereotype but depicts trauma decently. From what I've seen, the Criminal Minds CSA plot was sensitively handled. It's not like I had no good examples to provide. The problem is that the examples that are most like Halsin's abuse, namely the Wheel of Time and I would argue Spartacus, are offensive and flippant.

Additionally, we have no data to corroborate if Halsin ever experienced a phase of being sex averse following his imprisonment. Were I to expand my criteria from "purely non-sex-averse characters" to "characters who experience a period of sex aversion and move past it," there are plenty of good examples. But I have no confirmation one way or the other that Halsin had this because most of the speculation of Halsin's response to trauma is without any textual basis.

If those portrayals can be of varying quality, why can't this one be one of the varying quality bits of representation too?

I think this is an interesting point. There are two schools of thought at play here. 1) ANY representation is good and should be shown regardless of sensitivity and quality. 2) Some things are 'representation' in name only, and have the possibility of being otherwise offensive, thoughtless, or perpetuating harmful stereotypes.

If all we want is representation, this could be an example of a negative portrayal, sure. I just really wish we didn't live in a world where the best we as survivors can hope for is negative stereotypes and jokes at our expense.

And listen, I know this is important to you and a pretty emotional topic. At least it's emotional for me, anyway. Part of me honestly hoped that listing (some) half-decent examples of representation could be a sort of olive branch. I was probably projecting because I sort of hyperfixate on finding examples of representation and thought it could be helpful to share. Of course, there were also negative examples in that list, but if the binary of "does this piece of media have a male victim of SA regardless of quality, Yes or No" was something of use to you in whatever way... Even if it was just an example of "okay, this sucks and is a baseline of awful to compare other media against." Well, I figured I'd add it. In any case, it seems to have done more harm than good and for that, I apologize.

The way it is written in the game right now, it is clearly just a bad joke. Maybe it was very late and the writer was in the mood for a dirty joke to emphasize Halsin's image of a big man that everyone wants to have sex with.
If it was meant to be something important for the character, they wouldn't have added it in an optional scene.

From what I read, there were people who had to refrain from playing because of this joke. I really understand that it can be helpful to have representation, but do you really think this will work based on a dirty joke that the writer clearly didn't give a second thought?
I am afraid I might come off as being offensive, but in asking for Halsin's background to be expanded, you also ask for expanding what made some people (also victims) stop playing BG3. In this case, maybe you could ask yourself: If they remove his background, will you stop playing the game? If not, then maybe its fair to remove it and give other victims a chance to come back. No matter if they are male or female victims, if it hurts people enough to stop playing a game they paid for(!), I feel like it's a bad idea to expand on that.


@Lyricus: I really like how thoughtful you write, how you are explaining your opinion and I want to thank you for that.