Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Why BG3's ending reminds me of Mass Effect 3's (ending spoilers, naturally)

I noticed I'm not the only one who was, after attempting to get a "good" ending, left with a nagging sense of defeat after finishing BG3 for the first time. One that is, unfortunately, very familiar to me since I felt the same after finishing Mass Effect 3 back in 2013. Which gives me the opportunity to write about why that is the case. Not that it takes much explaining.

The problem arises if you prevent the Emperor from consuming Orpheus' brain, which is in my opinion, the only decision a character with any sort of functional moral compass could make, and are now presented with the "necessity" of someone having to turn into a mind flayer.

At this point, our victory becomes a superficial one. In the outer world, we are on the road to victory, but in the inner world of archetypes, of symbolic representation, of magical psychology if you want, on that level which gives our stories their deeper meaning, and in the best of them, their timelessness, you have now lost. Lost, because you had to accomodate that which you have been fighting against. And not just that, you had to become a very representation of it. You have fought not mind flayers as such, necessarily, but certainly that which they represent within the context of this story: the forces of domination and tyranny, of mental corruption, of consumption of intelligent life - note the similarities to ME3's endings here - the forces which you have fought to keep from consuming you from the start of this story. Which has been, if you played that way, absolutely the point of your story. Thus, you have won the war, but lost yourself. Lost yourself, regardless of whether it was you who underwent the transformation, regardless of whether whoever did it might have been happy about it. The only thing that matters for this moment to feel like a defeat is that someone on your side had to do it.

You might want to argue that form does not matter. I would object on a philosophical level but up to this point, the game is ambiguous enough about that that you might plausibly subscribe to the notion. However, it is firmly denied at exactly this moment, where you might want to invoke it in order to come to terms with the ending, because if form truly did not matter, then there would be no need for anyone to turn into a mind flayer in the first place.

Add to that that this makes absolutely no sense and it comes out of the blue. There is no plausible lore that implies, or even suggests, that something like this needs to be done. If we are in "the realm of thought", where form arises from thought and action from intent, our intent, our determination - this classic heroic trait, amplified as it has been all the time by Orpheus innate resistance - should be enough. That it isn't without taking the form of the enemy, that we cannot win as human beings (I include all the playable races in the term since they're all psychologically human enough) comes across to me as wilfully added to the ending to rob me of a sense of victory, based, perhaps, on the misguided notion that an ending where my victory remains undefiled has no meaning. Well, I need only point to BG3's predecessor to counter that. TOB had an ending I still think about occasionally. Furthermore, even if you accept it, why isn't this reversible? There are shape change spells in this universe after all. Shape change into a mind flayer, do your stuff, change back, that's how it could work, completely lore-compliant.

I really like the rest of the game. It's among the best CRPGs I have ever played in more than 40 years. But that makes the fact that the ending sucks so much even more disheartening. Also, just like ME3's, it casts its shadow backwards to the start of the story and overshadows future playthroughs. I hope someone mods this away if Larian doesn't change it... but I continue to wonder how anyone could create such an ending and see something, at the least, good enough.

Eloquently put (as Lump would say). This together with the rushed ending cutscenes left a really bad aftertaste. Whatever you do, on a moral level you can't win.

On my first playthrough I played a Tav who refused to have anything to do with the parasite - he didn't use it and did not "upgrade". Then the game forces me
I strongly dislike that there are no consequences to using the tadpole and even stuffing your head full of them and I strongly dislike that we are forced to
And yes, the parallel to ME3 is glaring, as nothing we did before the ending mattered. We still get the same choices in the end.

It is impossible, I have finished the game yesterday and my thoughts went into the same direction.
Baldur's Gate III is an obscenely good game, but the ending left me with quite bad aftertaste in my mouth. I am an old-type RPG guy and I am more than willing to run the extra mile to get the best possible outcome. Nobody get's left behind, no stone is left unturned and no spoilers in the internet are being read.

Long story short what happend to my good-aligned cleric in the game was the following (Heavy spoilers related to Divinity 2, Mass Effect series and of course BG3 inbound):



After my run yesterday I am left with lasting feeling, that my choices through the game were superficial and all the choices I've made through the game are being just scrapped off and redefined by one dilemma close to the end, same as in original Mass Effect 3.

Yes! After finishing BG3 I even told my husband I had 'ME3 release endings' flashbacks, back when they were really really bad. Kay, the tricolor is still bad, but it has been sort of remedied over the years... or people just gave up complaining about it cause Bioware's "original creative vision" wasn't subject to change.

The only thing I can say about BG3 endings is that they aren't as bad as ME3 release endings, but they're pretty close. At least Tav/Durge/Origin don't necessarily die unless you decide to off yourself at the very end under very specific circumstances. And that is the only redeeming quality BG3's release endings have over ME3's.

I agree with the sentiment, Act 3 while having some of my favorite scenes but something is missing.


In Act 2 the main story Arc took over, Ketheric felt like a final boss. It was amazing and yes everything was rail roaded towards Moonrise and Shar's Gauntlet and that confrontation it worked.
A lot of the companion quests kind of went on pause.

Shadowheart after kissing scene. Absolutely nothing until the shar's gauntlet and then she needed time until we defeated Ketheric and ask Nightsong what she meant.
So I managed to have a little romance scene with Shadowheart in the first 20 hours of the game and for the next 60 hours until I reach Act 3... barely anything besides the Night Orchid scene.
I would have really appreciated one or more two scenes before Act 3 finale, at the time I did notice how things after Act 1 seem to be reactive and less intrigue.

In Act 1 I would see constant reactivity, commentary, the mystery of the different characters. Sometimes I just keep replaying Act 1 because there is just so much life... in Act 2 that kind of dropped off but I was still riding high from Act 1 and the mystery of Moonrise towers captured most of my focus but my companions felt distant, especially with all their tents so far apart from each other...

I thought to myself, its ok! It would get better in Act 3!
In Act 3 there is sooooo much content but it all feels disconnected. Like someone had a list of things to make, they made it and shoved it in there. It feels disconnected... like it feels crazy that to enter a vampire's mansion I have to go up a wall, up a ladder, enter a little door and then suddenly I am greeted by a hallway that I can only describe as the MAIN hall... if this was just a kitchen/service entrance it would make thematic sense but come on...
I know Larian said they never planned for an upper city but come on, you could have made one upper city courtyard that would lead to the vampire's manor...

Now the upper city, look Larian you don't need to add a whole city, the lower city is enough but we need the upper city for two characters. Cazador and Grotash.
The Gortash fight was just so bad compared to Ketheric. He is in an office with traps that barely matter and then he dies like fodder... he should have been in a throne room with minions upon minions. going hall to hall... something thematic! something like a puzzle! what the heck was that?
Yes the Orin fight could be a little underwhelming, i think she should be buffed but at least it looks super cool. Gortash? Not even.

In Act 3 we need more romance and friendship scenes, I want to see our characters hanging out at the elf song tavern bar. I want to see these characters share a camp fire, share drinks, meals... just a few scenes Larian. We are in the third act and everyone is still standing by their bed side, not interacting, not moving, not doing anything... why isn't Astarion laying around on a couch while Gale is at a desk reading a book while Shadowheart is infront of a mirror fixing her hair... anything!
Karalach has one date with us and thats the end of that romance... we can't fix her, we can't help her.
We have Yenna who just makes soup... Can't even take her to the orphanage. I would love to drop her off there and then make a large donation to them.

Look I could go on an on but you get the picture. Act 1 we were just being introduced. Act 2 we were in a deathland and more important things to worry about. Fine! But act 3?? Come on, that should have had more character interaction and development than the other two acts combined. Yes.
Yes I know. There are some wonderful powerful scenes and they were done amazingly well but there should have been some lower stake scenes as well to make those scenes even more powerful.


Finally the ending.
It feels confusing, do the mindflayers have souls or not? Are they else where or am I still me? Why is killing Orphaeus or becoming Mindflayer the only options? What about Omeluum? What about other solutions? It feels so contrived and confusing.
Then during the final fight our companions left at camp dont show up until the very end and then its like a cut scene jumbled together haphazardly. Its disconnected, characters seem behave like strangers or without care of the sacrifices made, poor Astarion running for his life, Gale thinking about the crown, Karlach blowing up... all at the same time. it is just so rushed and incomplete.

Larian you know what you have to do. Some of these scenes should play... then the characters and players should go to a tavern where they can talk to the different characters. More cutscenes, more emotional music and scenes... then at the right time bring up the blowing up part, then bring up the part where we choose to die as our selves. You guys probably have way better ideas than mine but you understand the problem and understand the solution.
I really, really, really hope you read this and implement an update a year from now. Hells, take two if you need it. Make it a DLC. I don't care. Just make it.
You guys did a tremendous job we just need the final lap for that home run.

I second that Eddiar.

My experience was similar. Act 1 was excellent. If the Act 2 and 3 would share that level of immersion, interactions and story then BG3 would be for me the best cRPG ever.

I was really expecting some final round at the camp or tavern, or just any kind of epilogue, not just for our companions but also the notable NPCs.

Both Act 3 and finale need more polish, be it as Enhanced Edition, DLC or expansion pack. I still remember how Throne of Baal wrapped up the story of BG2, so we have a kind of a precedence here. The potential in Act 3 is crazy, but it needs more life, complexity and immersion.

BG3 is awesome, but to make it to the legendary status we need that final cherry on the cake!

The part about Gortash's fight being made into a puzzle honestly made me think of the Kirin Jindosh level and the Clockwork Soldiers from Dishonored 2. Though, I don't know if it'd be possible or fun to have something like Jindosh's mansion with the Steel Watch in BG3's CRPG style as opposed to a first-person stealth game.

While I agree with that - there's just too much stuff from unconnected quests being wrapped up here in the Lower City, so that while the location feels very authentic, the events we have there do not come together and dealing with them feels at times like working off a shopping list - that did not contribute to the sense of defeat I mentioned in the OP. That "revelation" about someone having to become a mind flayer had a singular impact.

In-world lore can be contradictory, but I would trust the information given by our resident wise old man, namely Withers, indicating that as a rule, mind flayers aren't individuals as we understand the term. Omeluum is an interesting case but he's not a problem since we can imagine that exceptions exist. The Emperor is much more of a problem. Ceremorphosis, as I understand it, appears to be not so much a process of transformation than of consumption, similar to how Alien's xenomorphs reproduce. The brains of the host bodies are consumed, so their identities should not be able to continue. I think they simply did not think that through to the end with the Emperor, given that he's a late replacement for "Daisy". As for why a mind flayer has to connect to the Netherbrain in the end, there is no in-world rationale, which is why this element comes across as wilful and nonsensical. I'm sure they had their storytelling reasons, maybe it's nothing more than they needed a reason why we could not dominate the Netherbrain right there at the final meeting in the Astral Prism. If that's the case, I would've suggested "we need to get our hands on the crown" as an alternative. But flimsy or not, almost anything would've been better having to take a form that represents what we've been fighting against.

I might add that those who want a good-ish ending while working with the Emperor almost have it worse. Because up to this final meeting in the Astral Prism, you could plausibly believe that might be possible, only to find that the Emperor's path is the evil one after all.

About becoming a mindflayer... the Emperor basically tells you this because you have to think like a mindflayer in order to defeat the brain. But why would I trust him? He claims to be your protector. But in reality he's only there to make sure that the one who really protects us (Orpheus) stays in his prison.

When we first run into the brain, we can't control it. But Tav is doing this alone. They could have played into that. Because we have these powers to link our minds with our companions. When we free Orpheus he could suggest linking our minds to become one and he would be there to protect us. Tav could be the catalyst and depending who you have with you in your party they could have played into their individuality. For instance, the party would feel the determination of Lae'zel, the sense of duty of Wyll, the fire and freedom of Karlach, etc. And by linking them with Orpheus' protection the brain would become weak enough to fight.

I don't know what you think, but this would have been a much more satisfying end for me.

This would have been very satisfying indeed. It would not only have reinforced our connection to our companions, but also echoed the scene before the battle with Thorm, where our three enemies reinforced their control over the Absolute.

As for the Emperor's rationale, that just reinforces the point: if thinking like a mind flayer is sufficiently different from thinking like you, then you're no longer you after the transformation. Instead of you, there's just a mind flayer who happens to have some of your memories. Just this happened to the Emperor, which you can deduce from the documents you find and which is made clear right there when he wants to consume Orpheus' brain. So you really become the enemy, mind and body, and whoever is the one taking this on themselves will no longer exist.

The Emperor has always asserted that he is greater than he was as a human. Furthermore, from comments and conversations, it's clear he still retains some of the feelings and memories of his past life. So while we can't be the same people we were before transforming, I think it's possible that we can be a sort of hybrid being, where biologically you're a mindflayer, but the original person is still largely there in spirit (in terms of psychic energy, I don't want to get started on souls, which is a subject that's impossible to answer). In the game, I chose to transform, and there was no difference in the way the game and the Narrator treated me. I felt like me. The Narrator mentioned that I feel myself ebbing away, but that it was possible that I can be unique and retain enough of myself, "like the Emperor". I like the idea that we can be exceptions to the norm.

You can arrive there by choice, for instance by using the astral tadpole and then transforming completely. That's perfectly fine. I like that we have that choice and I have a character in the works who will do that. I object only to the fact that someone *has* to transform, specifically if you played the story as "I'll do anything to stay as human as possible", which is clearly one of the suggested pathways, only that it's betrayed in the ending, after having been able to play it consistently for 99% of the game.

Meanwhile, if you play a pro-illithid character but also don't want to be evil, the natural path is working with the Emperor, but that will make you evil at the final meeting in the Astral Prism, after, yet again, being able to play good-ish for 99% of the game in spite of slowly turning illithid, so that will be betrayed as well. So if you want to be good-ish, the ending will betray you one way or the other. That's the core issue.

I admit I was talking more about the issue of our illithid identity rather than the forced choices in the ending. I don't mind that someone has to transform as it does force us to ask the question, what would we sacrifice to win this war?

Regarding the ending, I get the sense that Larian wanted us to feel caught between two impossible choices: continue working with your ally and condemn a prisoner to death, or betray your ally and free the stranger from enslavement. Neither are good, and the issue is complicated by the backdrop of the gith/illithid war, where both sides loathe and fear each other.

I reluctantly accepted an ending that was not morally good, but I wish I didn't have to. It would be far more satisfying if we had the ability to broker a short truce between the Emperor and Orpheus, for the immediate common goal of ending the Absolute's Grand Design. Even if Larian didn't want us to have a "happy ending", there should be a pathway open to those who made careful choices, to achieve that.

Excatly. And what also stuck in my mind was a book you find at the Emperor's layer. It describes what to do when you are under the influence of mind flayer manipulation. Not only was it the perfect foreshadowing of what would happen if you tell the Emperor "No" on the Orpheus matter. But it also serves as something you don't want to become (unless you're aiming for it specifically in your play-through).

The book tells you to never trust a mind flayer. And if you're happen to work on a common goal together, the mind flayer will drop you as soon as you're no longer useful to them. The advice you get is to build strong relationships with your allies instead.

So, unless my character is somehow special, I would now treat my allies this way and discard them when I no longer need them, if I decide to become a mind flayer.

I think it's somewhat problematic to prejudge an individual based on a general and cursory observation of a species.

If you transform, the Narrator specifically says the Emperor is unique and you could be too.

(I personally know many humans who also discard friends who are no longer useful, by the way, so this behaviour is by no means particular to mindflayers).

I rather feel that the end game lacks some of the atmosphere of Acts 1 & 2.

By this I mean if you conquer the grove/wipe out the goblins you get a celebration.

When you beat the 1st of three you end up with a gathering of sorts.

In Act 3 killing the other two the response you get from your party feels no more demonstrative than finding out who's eating the pigeons, at the least you'd expect some camp based celebrations.

Finally - before you embark on the final battle I'd expect you and your partner would spend the night together as you both stand a good chance of not coming back.

I don't understand why omeluum isn't a valid option instead of the emperor if you meet the criteria that you haven't killed him, sold the ring he gave you, took the ring from him, and if you saved him in the iron throne and meet up at the society.

If I have to pick a mind flayer companion, it will be someone I trust more than the emperor.

It isn't like we never see him again, he does reappear in act 3. We know the ring offers him some semblance of protection, admittedly it would be more difficult the closer he got to the absolute, but he was up front with us as soon as we meet him. Unlike the emperor.

I really feel like he and Orpheus working together (persuade check), alongside us and our companions (I love the connected tadpole strength companion ending someone else mentioned), makes one of us changing unnecessary. Orpheus power could supplement the ring if it fails the closer you get to it.

I could see the argument made that we would be special since we've retained our consciousness and so the parasite has adapted to us and thus more of ourselves would carry over into the transformation since ceremorphosis is usually a far quicker process.

Omeluum seems to be deeply uninterested in the fight. Ironically, if he was more invested in it, players would probably trust him less. I was disappointed that I wasn't able to speak to him more about mindflayers and the Emperor in particular.

From a story writer's perspective, it goes like this: you want something to happen, and then you make up reasons for it and event chains that actually make it happen. So the *primary* answer to "why must someone turn into a mind flayer" is that the story writer(s) at Larian wanted things to go that way, probably in order to make some point. Trust me, something this important almost never happens in a story unless it is explicitly desired by the writer. And the reason why Omeluum doesn't come in is because Omeluum would have made that what they wanted to happen less plausible.

So in order to convince someone at Larian to change this retroactively, should that be a plausible possibility (which I believe it is not, but I still hope they'll do it), pointing out ways this could've worked out differently will do absolutely nothing. What you need to do first, is convince whoever might be able to change things, that this f******* idea that someone has to turn into a mind flayer was bad to start with. So bad, in fact, that it merits retroactive change.

That is why I did not point out alternatives in the OP, but concentrated on why it is such a disgustingly, so heartbreakingly bad, self-contradictory and broken way to end the story. And if change should be coming at some point, no one who wanted it will care a great deal about alternative ways to bring about the new scenario either, as long as it isn't nonsensical beyond our rationalization power.

Of course, in the real world this would be a massive problem. But I'm just talking story-wise. And in the story we get many cues that a mind flayer is something you don't want to be. The reason being that the parasite will take over and you won't be yourself anymore.

Yes, the narrator tells us the Emperor is unique. And he is.... until he isn't. As soon as you choose to free Orpheus he'll immediately switch sides and becomes everything he was fighting against. Through out the story he tells you that freedom is the most important thing to him. But when you play a character who thinks that freedom should also extend to Orpheus, he will join the brain because you didn't do things his way and thinks you're going to loose. And that leaves me to think that controlling you was a bigger motivator than the freedom he says he wants.