Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Please Larian, Rewrite or Delete [ACT 3 SPOILERS] (very long with spoilers)

Do you understand what a "character" is or do you consider that there is only "this guy was good" and "this guy was evil" ? It's not about their alignement, it's about their CHARACTER.
The problem with Viconia and Sarevok is not that "they are evil in BG3" (both COULD end evil in ToB so it's not a stretch).
The problem is "they don't act at all and they don't have the same character than their entire definition in the BG saga, wether before their met the MC, during or after".
What is so hard to understand ?

Alignment =/= personality. Characters of the same alignment can have different motivations, values and personality traits. Fiction would become boring pretty soon otherwise.

Viconia

The greatest gift Shar has to give her followers is non-existence after death. This may not seem like a big deal, but given what can happen after death it actually is. After you defeat her Viconia begs you to send her to "Lady Shar's embrace" because Shar was/is all she had/has left and it's been that way for quite some time.

If you talk to Minsc he tells you that Viconia left the camp after she was caught trying to steal and dissect Boo. At least, that was his interpretation of what she was doing. This more or less fits with dialogue from Bg1/2 and Viconia's established personality traits. She is cruel. She is a loner. She is alone.

After this was when she likely founded the temple in Waterdeep, and yet she didn't form any strong bonds with any of her fellow Shar worshippers, or at least not enough to disobey Shar when she was asked to kill them. So she further isolated herself and then was given new orders. Again, she is alone.

And she has been that way for the last 100 years. She only has Shar. Whatever she might have been/or grown to become ended when her path diverged from the original Bhaalspawn. Shar likely orchestrated this - it's how she works.

Viconia wants to die. I killed her out of mercy having assessed what she has been through. She can now enjoy oblivion. I think the cruelest thing you can do is to let her live. I understand people "spare her" out of "nostalgia" which is a selfish thing to do.

Happiness was never in the cards for Viconia. In the established lore she failed to overcome her own cruelty, which tracks. The Bg2 writers were humoring you by making a narrow and almost impossible path to her redemption, but I don't see that actually happening. She had been too long under Lolth's shadow - if she had chosen Eliastree things would have been very different, but she chose a Goddess almost as cruel and manipulative as Lolth.

Sarevok

Sarevok is a shadow of what he once was. Nobody who dies comes back the same, and Sarevok spent a long time in his Father's realm - The Throne of Blood in Gehenna. He is brought back but without his Bhaalspawn blood driving him, but with the memory of what he was and can never be again.

He has become like a parent that lives vicariously through his offspring. He is Orin's father and Grandfather. Not even going to get into the level of degeneracy it takes to behave that way.

Not to mention he is basically overseeing the Murder Tribunal now - the Bhallist equivalent of a "desk job"

Sarevok is a middle manager, a has been. This is what losing looks like.

A Thermian Paradox at it's finest, completely sidestepping the actual argument.

Yeah...calling people 'selfish' for not being on board with Viconia's railroad/character assassination is certainly...a take.

BG 2 writers were 'humoring' you with her character arc and Viconia 'wanted to die' . Just....really?

The knots some people will tie themselves into to excuse the terrible writing around Viconia is truly astonishing.

Her status in BG 3 directly contradicts her BG 2 epilogue in specific ways obviously intended to make her less sympathetic. It's frankly just baffling that anyone can look at an ending where she explicitly is rejected and betrayed by her fellow Sharrans and loses the favor of Shar and comes to the conclusion that 'Viconia was a fanatic and butchered her fellow Sharrans (loyalty and faithfulness emphasized) without a second thought because Shar demanded it, because she lives and breathes for Shar's favor-was a natural and fair interpretation and continuation of the former.

It's literally 'well actually the exact opposite happened'.

And yeah none of this crazy string justification for her portrayal (or Sarevok, for that matter) comes close to addressing that Larian had the option to interpret them in a manner where they were included in a manner like Minsc or Jaheria that was designed to actually be a treat for their fans to see, instead of ...this. They had a choice, and a degree of artistic flexibility available to them that they were willing to exercise, clearly. But *this* is what they chose to go with. The one where S & V are one note fanatics whose character development is thrown out the window, who are narratively set up to be second fiddle to the player and the Origins (I mean hell, according to Minsc, Viconia left the BG II party after being chased off by Boo, of all things, and SH's story basically flat out makes her Vic's replacement, while Durge's makes it very clear that Sarevok is a shadow and a failure of both Orin and Durge.) ...villains whose (strongly encouraged) killing is framed as a cathartic triumph that's celebrated by everyone in your party.

A degree of extrapolation might be expected to include old characters, but for heaven's sake, Vic's portrayal could not be more tailor-fitted to PO her fans if it was a literal hate fic. It's amazing something like this got green lit, IMO.

That's nicely written fanfic, but no, that was not the characterization in BG1 and 2. You obviously didn't like the characters in BG2, so I can hardly take your explanation in good faith.

To be read in Jay Brittons' "Upper Class Twit" Voice.

My goodness, how dare they not consult you before writing Viconia into the story, what with all your published novels and your clear and deep understanding of writing. Truly a loss for all of us I am sure.

Personally I would have preferred that they had left Vicky out - I think she was too many young boys first sexual video game experience and they never got over it. Probably spent years writing steamy fanfiction about it all - ruining all those socks your dear mother bought you. Then she shows up and she is just some bitter old lady Shar fanatic with a lifetime of regret for her shitty behavior. That's got to be a kick in the ol' yarbles, just ruins all that fantasy.

You know what Viconia is? She is proof that boys (and some gals) will go crazy over a good pair of digital breasts and a sultry voice despite a mountain of red flags surrounding them. She is prepubescent male lust and the arrogance of "I can fix her" writ large.

In THIS story, letting Viconia live is not only cruel to her, but it showcases a lack of conviction on the players part to bring to justice a mass murderer. Doing anything for the sake of sentimentality is how psychopaths and sociopaths operate. Congrats on failing that "good" playthrough. Pft.

Lmao, so now you're slut shaming Viconia? Well, that explains the venom.

Edit: Also, Viconia in BG2 has no digital breasts.

I'm also a woman who loves Viconia as my female Charname's bff, so weirdly, I can't claim to have been enraptured by her sex appeal.

Where do you see that? Show me the line.


Oh no, I loved the character in BG1, 2 and 3 - which is more Bg's than you did apparently. In a sense she is a test of a person's conviction and how far that (superficial) conviction goes.

Your just one of those people that thinks that critical analysis is the same as hate. So sad.

"You know what Viconia is? She is proof that boys (and some gals) will go crazy over a good pair of digital breasts and a sultry voice despite a mountain of red flags surrounding them. She is prepubescent male lust and the arrogance of "I can fix her" writ large."

Seems pretty slut shamey to be. Oh no, how dare this female character be written as sexy and morally dark? She must be punished by the narrative for her sins!


You're the one complaining about a well written critical analysis that actually integrates writing from BG1 and BG2.

That isn't even close to slut shaming. I am criticising the superficial decision-making of prepubescent boys and girls and how they carry those conceptions into adulthood.

Look, this is some more complex stuff so if english isn't your first language I don't want to be overly harsh about your lack of comprehension.


I actually wasn't. I was providing my own. I didn't even quote the original analysis. Again, if english isn't your first language I want to make sure I am moderating how I respond to you. Let me know.

Oh wow, so now we're not only 'selfish', but we apparently must have never got over prepubescent fixations with her to not agree with you. And both psychopaths and sociopaths to boot, of course. Do go on Freud.

I'll be honest, that's some super uncomfortable fixation and speculation on the sex habits of Viconia's fanbase, btw. Really inappropriate to be going into detail about some strawman fantasy over detractors masturbating over Viconia, I think most people would agree. If you ever actually hoped to convince anyone to come around to your way of seeing things, It's probably fair to say you blew it right there.
 
You know, considering how vehement you seem to be that anyone who doesn't like the writing for this character must be some sort of obsessive, the fact that you immediately pivoted to insulting everyone who didn't agree with you in every way imaginable shows you might be more than a little fixated yourself. Clearly you don't have any great fondness for the character yourself, so maybe you should reflect on why exactly are you so invested in 'proving' that Larian's way of going about it was the right one I wonder. Like of all things, this is what gets you worked up?

No offense, Blackheifer, but both Viconia and Sarevok are just badly written, especially after previous Baldur's Gate games.

From what I have heard Baldur's Gate novels released by WOTC are just as bad and killed off Jaheira or something, for which they were rightfully mocked.

You come across as someone who only saw one part of the character and gave up on them. It’s the same shit with people killing Laezel or others, because they didn’t immediately like them.

If you replaced both V and S with greater doppelgangers, it would be better overall. Hell, S especially makes no sense, even endings aside. He wanted to take Bhaal's power for himself, when did he become a loyal attack dog for a father figure he hated???

As for Viconia wanting to die... did you even get a single dialogue with her? She rejected Loth, clawed her way out of the coffin and suddenly wants to die because she was turned into a carricature of her own? Just... no. Simply horrible, garbage interpretation of characters to excuse Larian's Terrible writing of these characters.

It's a plausible interpretation of characters like Viconia that they are a test of maturity and equanimity. She is written to appeal to certain immature fantasies. But not to worry, people can learn from their mistakes - or so I am told - probably no one HERE but I am sure they exist somewhere.

I am not saying she is any feat of great writing, and I never made that argument. Viconia is a trap for the above stated. I happen to think it's a trap most people fell into and never gained the Wisdom to walk away from.

Don't assume you understand anything about me. Stop projecting your nonsense onto me.

Viconia doesn't "suddenly" want to die. We are talking about a 100 year span of time here. In that time she just completely isolated herself, she LITERALLY has no one and a head full of garbage memories and no love except what she and Shar have.

She doesn't just want to die, she is too bitter and angry for that - she wants to be defeated.

Do you really not see the irony and hypocrisy of saying this and then right after...


To say this? If not then I would advice everyone else in this thread to just ignore him and continue having a potentially interesting and constructive conversation amongst themselves. I can't speak to any sort of characterization from the original games but the confidence to make that sort of sweeping statement ie not conducive to constructive, enriching conversation.

Try going after the argument and not me. I know it's tempting but do lets at least give it the ol college try. Eh?

Although there really isn't a counter, this entire discussion is predicated on a ridiculous falsehood - that Viconia is fucking King Leer or some shit when she is obviously just simpy male wank fantasy crap.

OH NO, you ruined garbage Larian, how dare you?! What doest thou have to say for thyself.

F's in chat for Viconia!

Yep, agreed, I was about to suggest something similar before mods step in and possibly lock this thread due to too much mud being flung around in all directions.

But on the topic on hand, I do agree with the OP, of all the cameos only Jaheira got any justice. Minsc is too hard to mess up but Viconia and Sarevok... especially Sarevok make no sense at all. Writing wise, especially considering the previous games.

Given Viconia's past she just dooesn't strike me as someone who'd kidnap and torture a child, especially after what she refused to do herself in Lolth's name. And Sarevok and the rampant incest he suddenly took a liking to? And becoming a Bhaal fanatic after wanting to usurp his fathers throne for himself? Ugh.

OMG, win.

To summarize my points:

- a plausible interpretation of characters like Viconia that they are a test of maturity and equanimity. She is written to appeal to certain immature fantasies

- She isn't a feat of great writing to begin with. There is no need to get precious about how Larian decided to go with her.

- Viconia is cruel, selfish, racist, arrogant and a mass murderer.

- Despite this players are convinced (mostly men) that they "can fix her" - because hot.

- This interpretation lays bare the essential trap that Viconia represents.

- That falling for Viconia's manipulation represents a type of personal failure on the part of the player, especially in a "good" playthrough.

- This is especially true given that the nature of the reputation system means that to keep Viconia in the party you can't go above a certain reputation, nor can you associate with certain characters without meta-gaming.

- So association with the trap fantasy requires the player to compromise values.

- People who have fallen for the trap fantasy have displayed hostility to being confronted with it.

- Larian wrote a version of Viconia that takes into account how someone like her will end up, bitter, alone.

- Sarevok is obsessed with murder, power and control. Slaughters his own father, friends, and all his associates. Sends his girlfriend to die.

-Rapes his daughter to produce a granddaughter Bhaalspawn.

- Fans - "OMG, that's going too far for such an honorable person. How dare you Larian!"

Yes, please let’s take it down several notches and stop with the dismissive and patronising attitudes and insulting language. People can have different preferences and takes on the same story, and that’s fine. It’s okay to disagree.

I don’t have time right now to contact the individual posters in this thread to point out what went wrong here. But there are a few folk who perhaps could reflect on how they contributed to the escalation, and on how they can better have constructive discussions with folk with different views.

Blackheifer, I don’t generally like to single individual posters out when they’re not the only one responsible for things getting heated, but I will say that your recommendation to focus on the argument rather than the individual is a good one. But that being rude and dismissive about the quality of the argument, as opposed to engaging constructively with its content, is pretty much inseparable from attacking individuals, and perhaps you could therefore consider how better to follow your own advice?