Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The insane timeline of the main plot (do I even need to tell you that it's spoilers?)

the Emperor claiming he had stopped multiple orders for your transformation was the point where I decided to stop trusting him. It’s one of those unverifiable claims that are designed to gain the confidence of the gullible and naive. Why you’re taking what he says at face value I don’t understand

How the prism works is unclear but we can ascertain from the bridge scene that the Absolute’s voice isn’t constant but comes in dramatic revelatory bursts, it is speculated that how we receive orders from the Absolute on the bridge is how others perceive our own commands when using the [illithid] . How Minthara reacts to our presence then could just be her realizing that her appeals for guidance have gone unanswered since being in our presence

Or maybe its the Emperor letting her in. There’s another interesting scene when mind delving into Minthara where Chosen are shown to become mindless thralls if their natural psychic defenses are stripped from them

I’m questioning my memory now, but does Minsc have a tadpole?

killing him at the start of Act3 making you an immediate thrall. Yes, he is awful at convincing just about anyone (and even has strange remnants of wearing Daisy's clothes during a dream sequence), but that's because of the poor craftsmanship by the writers, not because that is what the plot actually claims. In fact, Emperor is one of the few people to not lie in the entirety of the game. He does not reveal full portions of information, yes (which is my main frustration with his writing, that despite being highly experienced, highly knowledgeable and more than 500 years old, he is fucking AWFUL at crafting words of gold despite being an Illithid), but after his reveal, we discover that everything he has been doing and saying is true, and everything he does and says afterwards is true (excluding his awful and unreasonable miscalculation of Orpheus, but whatever).

an order was completed, the infected would then regain some sense of sanity as now there is nothing holding them, not unlike how the players get to mess with NPCs they used their illithid powers on. However there is nothing that supports this.

Emperor, as in Act2, it takes him SECONDS to pull Minthara under his protection when you recruit her in Moonrise, yet in Act1 it is played that Minthara was beginning to experience the initial effects of the protection (not hearing the Absolute but not yet regaining her complete sanity) which is what caused her to run off.

Emperor even gets grumpy and says that there is no reason for him to extend his protection to Minsc, because as he puts it, Minsc would be a liability and a danger. Which is... not entirely wrong, given Minsc's character. And just like with Minthara in Act2, all it takes is seconds to fully protect Minsc.

the first opportunity we have to kill the Emperor occurs after one of the chosen has been killed, weakening their power over the Elderbrain mumble mumble keeping the tadpoles in stasis, without total control we begin having psychic episodes related to our previously arrested transformation, there’s even a recently birthed mind-flayer in a windmill who has been transformed at this stage.

the original command is brainwashing them into blind obedience to their new god, something we never underwent I’m not sure that needs to be reapplied. Though certainly the tadpoles probably link then to the hivemind they’ve been told is communing with the Absolute. And what is the purpose of Ascention?

If mere proximity to the relic were enough to do this to the chosen, there would be no hiding that from them throughout the acts, like during our vetting by Zrell. But I really don’t know

He has been proven to have protected the gang and that even when posing as the Dream Visitor, he has been telling the truth, even if not all of it (which is something he even says as the Visitor, that he can't tell much more due to the sensitive nature of the information). He has never lied about anything - even if you think withholding information counts as that, it doesn't.

The part about ascension is just referring to what goes on at Moonrise Towers to some of the chosen. I haven't done a run siding with Ketheric far enough to know if you learn more about it.

as far as I'm concerned there is very little that links the guardian to the artifact beyond his dubious claims, dubious because they are on the face of it misleading, purposely obfuscate who he is, his situation, and by extenstion is role in our predicatment. His only tactic to persuade us is a clumsy appeal to our emotional understanding, and whenever we question him on more substantive grounds...oh no they're attacking again farewelllllll! *I will always love you* *remember me when I'm gone*

But - he is shown to help and protect us, we do show symptoms for turning into a mind flayer and he stops it. And he saved us from the fall - if you think he is lying - who do you think saved us? The Absolute and her followers want us dead (as seen if you meet the deadly injured guy and his siblings). And we see before the goblin camp that it is the artifact that protects the group. This is a link from the artifact to the dream guardian. And later we get more connections (like him warning us, you hear the dream guardians voice and then he moves the artifact back to you -> but this is e.g. in the monastery / creche so basically act 2).

And yes, he is hiding behind his appearance and it is especially clear if you have a male guardian and talk to gale, who speaks about a female one. So there is some hiding / deception on his part (which is later explained why he did it - because people normally don't trust mind flayers).

But what he tells you is true (e.g. he tells you he wants to be free. That is true. Also some things more like from past view - he was an adventurer, he had a tadpole in his head...). He isn't really lying, more lying by omission and not telling everything, which again, is understandable.

And he is in parallel protecting the player character + group and fighting off the honor guard and then talking to you (and your companions - at least in the beginning) - so everything at the same time. I think it is understandable that he won't have a lot of time for a chat and he doesn't want to tell you everything because he needs you to trust him first - and to be able to trust YOU. He was stabbed in the back by his former lover (Ansur tried to "mercy" kill him while he was asleep). He needs allies, he can't do it alone. He uses his natural abilities to achieve his goal - and this goal alignes with the players (in a good ending at least).

I also think people are very harsh to him for things that our companions do as well - like Astarion - he is manipulative too. He tries to manipulate to make you his ally, just like dream guardian/Emperor does. He also tries to hide what he is at first - out of good reasons too.

In the end, we see we can trust the Emperor and even if we used tadpoles / astral tadpole it is reversed in the end. No harm done.

Ansur's death was not sudden, at least that is not what Ansur says. It seems Ansur and the Emperor had a talk and a back and forth under the Fortress (Emperor trying to convince Ansur that he was FINE and it was GREAT being illithid), and Ansur felt like he had to kill the Emperor for the sake of the city and for the sake of Balduran himself. They fought, Ansur lost.

Gortash is sold off by his parents (who are cobblers and needed money) to Raphael when he was a kid. The original post makes it seem like he was sold to Raphael when he was already into politics, which came much later. In fact, he first started smuggling infernal enhanced items as an arms dealer, and from there spread into many branches of businesses (including innovations, that led to the Steel Watchers later on) and politics afterwards.

1. There are some documents in the Shar enclave in Baldurs Gate that mention a group of people from there going on a mission to steal the Astral Prism from the Nautiloid for Shar. There are several names/roles and the last one is Shadowheart/healer. Is there anymore to this? Was it just a random heist for Viconia?

2. Karlach seems to board the nautiloid while it traverses the hells. She is being pursued by Wyll who sees her enter the nautiloid and goes after her. Playing as Karlach, you don't wake up in a pod, but on the ground beside a dead mindflayer that you clearly killed. But she does get tadpoled. How? When? I mean, there had to be someone to put the tadpole into her eye and I assume the dead illithid wasn't the one. Also hard to imagine how to do it with her running around fighting in the nautiloid. Is there more info on this?

3. Then there is the general ideal that the companions were somehow chosen to bear the special tadpoles. I would understand that the special tadpoles were put on those who were "pre-selected" somehow (abducted intentionally), but how would it work for companions that oopsied into the nautiloid?

I don’t disagree that the party and the Emperor are in a mutually beneficial relationship. That isn’t the same as being trustworthy. Our symptoms occur through use of the tadpole, I think you learn from Omeluun that the stasis the tadpoles are in ends whenever you use them. With this in mind, I don’t know if the Emperor is actually stopping our transformation, like I said it’s an unverifiable claim, but he is stopping us from being thralls to the Elderbrain.
The Emperor needs us because he wants us to be his factotum in the real world. Him helping us is not him puttIng his trust in us. The same can be said of Astarion except that you are given many more opportunities to expand and influence that relationship.

When I say there is nothing linking the Emperor to the artifact I’m not saying that he isn’t controlling Orpheus’s powers, that’s made clear…much later. But for the first Act there is only the insinuation that our dream guardian is connected to the artifact. An insinuation that doesn’t benefit from his numerous lies of omission.
I don’t know how the scene at the goblin camp connects the relic with the guardian, it may connect the guardian with the relic as much as it connects the relic to Shadowheart.
He does nothing to garner our trust, a relationship that people in other threads already complain is railroaded into this dynamic.

I don't think so. It mostly doesn't fit the cinematic but if they would change it (maybe in a later definite edition) it would already help a lot. And there are other open questions and issues with the timeline that aren't tied to the Emperor (the whole Shadowland/Curse topic). But of course - they did a late rewrite (although the Emperors VA said he came in 2021 or so which doen't sound so late so maybe the Emperor in some form already existed but they changed Daisy to Guardian and tied it to the Emperor later) and that shows. There wasn't simply enough time to clean everything up (including the cinematic) with a late change. So I hope they correct things in a later edition and I don't think they need to rewrite the whole game to make it work.

He DOES STOP our transformation as you can see in the one night cutscene that everyone has symptoms and La'zel tries to kill you and then you have the dream and the guardian does something and next day you are better. How is this an unverifiable claim?

As said before - if he wasn't the one saving us from the fall - who do you think did it?

If he would only protect you from becoming a thrall then by your logic/understanding using of the tadpole powers should transform the characters into a mind flayer anyway. But that doesn't happen in game so this is not true - he does prevent our transformation - the game shows us this.

If you trust him to the end you see that he was indeed trustworthy and using the tadpole powers have no negative effect on you aside from the one optical change from the tad pole that he told you about before taking it.

Now yes, we don't have all this information in act 1 but why would we? It is actually the fun in not knowing what is happening (unless you are like me and like to spoil yourself to plan your playthroughs of course).

And yes, you can see it with the chosen 3 - working together doesn't mean you trust each other. Same with the Emperor - you as player can decide to trust him or not. And depending how you react to him he will trust you or not (you can later after the deal with Raphael when he asked what happened ask him to trust you and to don't ask further and he will do that). He does have different dialog lines if you do not trust him and tell him this, or even tried to kill him. But he is still forced to work with you so he tries to make it work anyway. Like you are stuck with him. There aren't much more fleshed out opportunities because he was a late rewrite, we shouldn't forget this. Like Halsin - you can't influence him either.

At the goblin camp you learn that the artifact protects you and in your first dream with the visitor you learn that the visitor is protecting you. This is the link. Who else would protect you?

Shadowheart is only tied in the very beginning to the artifact in the way that she thinks it is important and brings it with her from the Nautiloid. If you leave her behind in camp you can see that the artifact will be in your inventory so it is clear it isn't very tied to Shadowheart. And it doesn't take too long I think until she tells you she just stole it. It is also tied to Lae'zel as she recognizes it as being of Gith origin. We know both the artifact and the guardian are protecting us so it makes sense to suspect he is inside the artifact and we can see later (before visiting him there) that this is indeed the case.

I mean, if someone wants to believe something else why not but the hint is there.

He could explain everything from the start that is right but again - why would he? You rather have him in the first cutscene appearing as mind flayer and telling you he is inside the prism and controlling this gith and so on? And you think you would then trust him more? And what development would we then have throughout the game? It is not like you get all answers with everything else in the first act - same with the companions, the whole game is about learning what is going on and how to deal with it.

We are stuck with him (until the very late end) and he with us. True. For me personally it is not an issue but I get why people would have prefered other options like a cure and then being free to do what they like.

But how does he nothing to garner our trust? He protects us from turning into a mind flayer and becoming the absolutes slave. He warns us if he notices danger (like in the creche with the machine that is going to kill and not cure). What more do you want from him?

How would he even proof to you that he is sincere? Telling you everything in the first dream? I doubt that. People see he is a mind flayer and everything he says is directly taken as being manipulative. It is like "hey, you lied before and you are a mind flayer, I can never trust you again" which is fine but what you expect from him? Your companions lie too (directly and by omission and manipulate us) and this is fine but hey, they aren't mind flayers so it is ok I suppose? Yes we can influence them but then it is ok they did what they did? They had their reasons. And the Emperor? Same, he had his reasons. And he continues to work with us regardless how we treat him because he has no choice. There is no one else. So the player holds some power over him but can't get rid of him. And the other way around. He does react differently to us depending on how we treat him but yes, there isn't much influence possible (aside from asking him to trust us and he does). Hopefully they add more later as he was a late rewrite - we know that and this is why he lacks.

Look, we aren't going to change each others mind about this. You think he is not trustworthy and I think it is up to the player and the playthrough/role playing if they trust him or not. It is a game with choices. Trusting him or trusting him not lead nearly to the same ending - just minus/plus Orpheus.