Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Shadowheart Romance and the Hidden Fetish - (Spoilers inside)

Ye just broke up with my homie Wyll and he accepts it with dignity, and you do at least get a chance to reconsider. Broke up with Karlach and you have to give her an explanation. So compared to them at least, Shadowheart definitely reacts more emotional.

Karlach still tries with the PC, why couldn't she with Shadowheart? She just can't sleep around, but you can kiss Karlach in act 1 as well. Shadowheart doesn't sleep with anyone, including PC. She would've if she were taught in an environment where casual sex was encouraged. And judging by her relationship with Halsin in act 2, she would've declined him. They're not exactly friends.

The rings imply seduction. Seduction, casual sex and relationship are three different things. Seduction is using sex as a purposeful tool and Shar does approve of that. Other than that I don't see where you disagree that it makes no sense that it was supposedly encouraged. She can't be both embarrassed by being attracted to someone and avoid any initiative for casual sex, but at the same time claim it was encouraged and she has stories to tell about her doing exactly that. That's the very definition of contraction.

Astarion also accepts poly with Halsin for absolutely no reason just to fit Halsin's late addition. Just like Shadowheart, it makes literally no sense for him to be okay with it. Just like Shadowheart, he's okay with Mizora, which also doesn't make sense. It all leads to one simple explanation: Halsin can't be poly/open if he's the only companion that is, and since he was a late addition romance they retconned Shadowheart and Astarion to illogically work with it.

And like you said, for some reason they aren't allowed to be poly together. Which just gives more credibility to the notion that the only reason these inconsistencies exist are because of Halsin's late addition, which in fact does make them exactly that: inconsistencies.

Also on "Mizora" cheat... The first line SH says is : "Now that he/she tried out inferior goods, he/she will know how good he/she has it already". Isnt that jealosy though?

More design problems is what I chalk it up to. Karlach was added around as late as all of Halsin's act 3 mess. And I think this is the point we most disagree on. I don't think the inclusions themselves are inconsistencies, what I think is that it all needed way more time in the oven since the team all agreed to go in this direction with it but weren't allowed the time to let it cook properly. Halsin is a little different where the writer just treated him especially poorly on top of being the extremely ill-considered focus of all the poly; and to that end Halsin is the only real "hidden fetish" the topic title mentions, I don't read that type of thing from any interactions that don't involve him.

It was likely encouraged exactly to prepare them for more specialized training in seduction. The ring thing is about what a fully trained Justiciar did and in the time frame of the game, Justiciars aren't exactly around in force. With how selective becoming a Justiciar is supposed to be I wouldn't expect a bunch of initiates are going to get that specialized training unless it was specifically expected in the selection process which it doesn't seem to be (at least for the specific cult we interact with). And as I mentioned, it's not the only time she mentions familiarity with a quick romp. She just isn't telling us the stories and I don't think that's particularly strange. Lots of people, even those who are quite flirtatious, don't enjoy talking about their past sex lives in detail even if they mention it in passing. There is an upper limit into how much exposition a videogame character should be expected to have, and I mean that's subjective so I don't fault anyone for expecting more, but I don't think it's a fault of the writing that we aren't getting the stories because I don't think they're needed to justify anything. I think the implication alone is enough with all the other details that can be connected about the cult.

When it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter how or why she reacts to Mizora though because it isn't canon. Anything that is optional side stuff isn't apart of SH's main story. Mizora is only there because Wyll is and isn't tied to SH in any way, except this optional interaction.

If they wanted this information about sharrans and casual sex to be canon, they would have added it somewhere in her main story, but they didn't. So therefore it is irrelevant, even if I do still think it's OOC for her. It doesn't matter anyway.

Unless you can give some examples in her main story where this is stated clearly?

That's exactly WHY the inclusion is inconsistent. The poly/open relationship rubbish was added late with no thought. That's an inconsistency. And Karlach wasn't added as late as Halsin was, because Karlach has a fully fletched story, origin version and all, with romance starting all the way in act 1. She was meant to be a companion and romanceable, so she was written as such. Halsin was not, so they took the opportunity to use all that fan love for him as a reason to make him into a meme.

If they wanted it to make sense, they'd have had to rewrite a lot. And that's way more effort than it's worth. So it's inconsistent.

It can't both be encouraged and discouraged. Which is right? The one that has an entire story arc behind it, ending and all, and is heavily implied at all points of the game, or the one that's mentioned in an optional dialogue that only happens if you cheat on her with Mizora? No, of course it doesn't have to be blatantly said, it'd be quite weird if it were. But if there's nothing else that hints at it, while everything hints at the opposite, then the only way to accept this as logical is through suspension of belief.

This is a WILD take about a game where character development and possible interactions are so heavily affected by choice up to and including not recruiting any of them at all. Canon in a game like this, until established by a sequel further defining it, (or maybe it won't as some sequels carry choices forward) is whatever you choose and run in to. This is for instance why I'm not hung up about
And as I mentioned in both of my previous posts, Shadowheart absolutely can make more than one implication. The first one is played a little closer to the chest if you suggest a quick fling because it's much earlier during some of your first rests, and one is a lot more open because you've already established the relationship by that point. You can choose not to read the first one as her being familiar with casual sex, but the latter if you decide to indulge with Mizora should in hindsight further the implication of it in the first one. In my opinion this is actually pretty solid writing.


Yeah I don't see us coming to an agreement on anything here. What's discouraged is the full romance Shadowheart continually expresses nervousness about. She at no point expresses any distaste for a casual fling other than her own personal lack of desire to initiate one with you, the player. Emphasis on the "with you." She, like a real person, is fully capable of experiencing something and just deciding it's not for her regardless of encouragement. She is equally capable of trying out something she's always wanted to give a try and changing her mind (especially once she's already committed to the actual thing she's discouraged from doing, may as well try what she can while she can). None of this is inconsistent, it's just the range of human experience and as ever circles back to that post way back on page 7 about how your choices as the player are what lead into these slight nuances of character. It shouldn't be removed, it should be made better and as part of what we disagree on, I don't think it would take much rewriting at all, rather it would take a fair amount of new additional writing. But like, mostly involving how underdeveloped all the poly stuff is, not this stuff about the cult and Mizora which are pretty much fine.

Yet she doesn't follow through with either of those propositions for casual sex with you. Are there examples of her with other companions? Lae'zel openly has casual sex at the grove party, it makes no sense SH doesn't do it as well if she's sooo into it.

I only consider her main story quest and the choices you specifically make in it, and it alone, to be canon, for her. You can't ignore her main story. You can kill her and end her story, but that still counts. You cheating on her with Mizora is a completely optional choice, and you are not forced to do it. Therefore, it is not canon.

As far as Im aware, she doesnt sleep with others if not romanced.

No one else makes a move on her except Wyll, who does it AFTER failing to impress Lae'Zel so Shadowheart writes him off. I was just discussing in those same posts how she pretty consistently lacks personal initiative. The only time she displays any at all is once you've already made her quite happy and more of an open book in your relationship, at which point she shows more confidence in asserting what she wants for herself. And again it runs through your choices, she only takes initiative for something you first show a shared interest with her in (which is yet another reason the act 3 Halsin stuff has to be revamped). It makes the ACTUAL inconsistency with Karlach stand out all the more because SHE'S the one who seems totally accepting of poly with Shadowheart, only to find out the timing of game events makes it impossible to achieve because Larian didn't fully develop the concept (or Karlach's own personal quest which might have also changed things in Act 3).

And I'm just not going to address anything about canon further with you, our views are entirely too incompatible for any discussion about that between us to be even remotely enjoyable or fruitful.

Not as wild as you make it out to be considering it has absolutely no consequences and thus isn't actually part of her character development whatsoever. It's only mentioned then, never before (read below) and never again, and her dialogue for the rest of the game doesn't change whatsoever.

The first one doesn't imply any of it. This is literally how it goes:
All she does is shut your suggestion down. And that's with the knowledge that she even likes you. Unless you're referring to one that only happens if you have low approval, where you can say that you're fine with throwing all caution to the wind or something and she'll just jokingly say maybe one of these nights might get cold and she'll need company. But thanks to the power of this being a videogame, when she does invite you for one of those nights, we know that with 'company' all she means is sharing a bottle of wine, and there she also shuts your suggestion for more down. If it were encouraged, she's defying Shar in all three occasions, something she would surely not do at that point in the game.

So the Mizora scenario is still the only one, being completely optional, with no consequences, and out of character.

The only time you can have a sex scene with her as Dark Justiciar is when she finds an excuse to do so. It's not meant as a romantic scene. You then get another one in the epilogue, she calls both an exception, and she breaks up with you even in a casual sense.

Earlier in the game she also says that intimacy under Shar was looked down upon and they had to find excuses or do it in secrecy. I do not remember exactly where and when, however this does perfectly fit the fact that she
1. doesn't do it in act 1 or act 2.
2. doesn't do it in act 3 without an elaborate excuse, despite wanting it.
3. Her relationship with Nocturne was no more than platonic, despite being the only person there she got along with.
4. The only memories she has when you enter the House of Grief are related to her having lessons about torturing and infiltration.

So yes, it does require rewriting in addition to more dialogue hinting at it. And it'd require all this to go in a direction people don't seem to want in the first place; not the ones that like Halsin and not the ones that like Shadowheart.

There is more inconsistencies than than, for example she is against Halsin joining camp, also their argument in Gauntlet of Shar, i would say she doesn't even like Halsin, then she suddenly changes her mind in act 3.

Wyll flirts with her sure but thats not the same as having casual sex. So what you're saying is, is that she's open to casual sex as long as she isn't the one initiating it? That's very different from lae'zel, who is more than happy initiating it herself.

So she just simply doesn't have the confidence to initiate casual sex on her own? She's not even comfortable having sex with the player until late in the game, but then suddenly has the confidence to ask Halsin to join in the next day?

No, I don't buy it. If anything it just sounds like she needs comfortabilty with someone before having sex with them. Everything you're saying just sounds very convenient to allow the player to do whatever they want with her. And there's no problem allowing that as optional choice for players. But let's not pretend like all of this is her canon story and makes any sense from what is shown to us throughout her main story/romance. She has only ever shown interest in being with the player only.

idk I kinda just still disagree with you.

Like I said, you don't have to read the first one as familiarity, what I'm saying is that running into the second one then lends more implication of it to the first one. And that's just good writing for a game heavily predicated on choices as far as I'm concerned. There's no reason for her to be specific that first time but getting to know more later can change the contextual reading and that's great. I feel like I already covered the content in the game I think works together for this to make sense so being more specific about why you don't think there's enough isn't going to change my mind. I feel like discussion between us has kinda run its course now. Mostly wanted to add my takes in here on the off-chance any of this makes it back to the writers as feedback anyway.

I know it isn't the same. I was explaining one of the most blatant reasons why she doesn't engage in it with the others. And no, it doesn't necessarily mean she lacks the confidence to, that's not the same as initiative. But it's clear that once she's happier and achieved her personal goal for your relationship, namely getting you for herself first, she's a lot more willing to take personal initiative. A good example is the Shar route scene regardless of any disagreement about what that means, she wants that for herself and initiates it which she does not do at any point earlier. When you broach the discussion with the twins you find out she also has an interest. It's all predicated on whether she's already got enough of what she wants to take initiative for more or not, and it's still limited to things you show interest in that she shares that interest in.

... but it doesn't. She shuts you down on THREE occasions. That doesn't hint at her saying it's "encouraged" later in the game, that literally implies the opposite. Lae'zel even mocks you for going into a night of "endless conversation" if you choose Shadowheart over her at the party. She's a good judge of character, it seems.

Or are you one of those people who thinks when a woman says no, they actually mean yes? Because then indeed, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Yeah this just isn't okay of you so we're definitely stopping here.

I did not mean it as in insult, but how else am I supposed to read three declines for casual sex as implying encouragement?

Putting words in my mouth certainly isn't helping. I feel like I was pretty clear this whole time the two instances I was talking about were brambles on skin and reaction to Mizora. I didn't engage directly with your specifications because you're justifying your stance and I don't see a reason to argue against why you don't feel like the game justifies itself, because I feel like it does justify itself and we've run the circle already.

Again, its very convenient that she happens to lack initiative until the player basically decides for her. Like with Nightsong, her choice depends on high approval and the previous choices the player makes. It's still ultimately on us, as the player, what she decides.

Just like with the drow twins. In that scene, the player has already decided they're going through with one of them. Then the other twin suggests SH join, and then SH shows interest AFTER the player has. Once again the player has decided. She's just conveniently open to anything in act 3. But this still isn't canon, as it is optional not forced, and is OOC.

There are a lot of inconsistencies. Some are caused by bugs ans some by poor writing. In my playthrough Laezel said something like "At last Moonrise towers" while being in Lower city. But Halsin related is just poor writing. Nothing more to add.