Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Build Discussion Larian please revert some of the changes to 5e ruleset!

I don’t want to play Divinity Original Sin 3 Baldur's Gate Edition of Electric Boogalo. The mods are already coming out, like this one:

RULES AS WRITTEN

This connects with my lack of balance thread, but this one focuses on the rules themselves.

-Fixing Haste, so it doesn't give full action would go a long way in making Alpha Strike the best and only strategy.
-Making Ranged weapons have actual different ranges rather than 15 meters for Hand Crossbows and 18 meters for everything else would help with dual wielded hand crossbow spam.
-Multiclassing having base stat requirements, so dip into Wizard doesn’t allow Sorcerer to learn all spells without any downsides!
-Multiple attacks and throws with additional bonus actions just breaks action economy.
-Shove as bonus action and Thunder arrows sending your party into instant death pits or waking all enemies from sleep and hypnotic pattern (which were nerfed to the ground).

And so on and so forth. 5e ruleset is not perfect by any means, but switching things up without considering the rest of the mechanics at play led to the current state of combat and game. Hehe big numbers go brrrrr!

5e wasn’t designed around the rule changes you did, leading to an extreme cases like unstoppable for bossess, so they don't instantly die. All the power creep, all the insane stats of bosses are a direct result of ignoring the rules that kept it all in check. Reverting at least some of the changes would help with that.

what you mean fixing haste ? without action gain this spell is useless this should also give bonus action cause there is none spell for it

AFAIK haste is supposed to provide a bonus attack, not a bonus action (e.g. not allow for another spell but for another weapon attack only)

> -Fixing Haste

Yep, obviously.


> -Making Ranged weapons have actual different ranges

Cant see how that would do much at all.


> -Multiclassing having base stat requirements

That neither.


> -Multiple attacks and throws with additional bonus actions

Not sure what you're refering to.


> -Shove as bonus action [...]

I really only skimmed once over the PHB so I also dont know what this refers to either.


> 5e wasn’t designed around the rule changes you did [...]

For good reasons basically every DM has house rules.

No computer game EVER has implemented any D&D ruleset in full and its not even a good idea doing so, since not all rules are a good idea in the first place.

Adjustments to make the final game better are thus perfectly in order.

that would make it complitly garbage cause action is normaly 2 attacks for melee and 1 spell for caster unless it would be no concentration spell, wasting concentration on that crap would make this spell dogshit

I swear none of you people have played 5e before or understand why certain spells and features are the way the are.

Haste from 5e:

"Choose a willing creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the target's speed is doubled, it gains a +2 bonus to AC, it has advantage on Dexterity saving throws, and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action.

When the spell ends, the target can't move or take actions until after its next turn, as a wave of lethargy sweeps over it."

In normal 5e you can only cast one spell per turn, no matter if you play wizard or sorcerer, unless you use Action Surge. In BG3 you can haste, fireball and then fireball as bonus action again. This is broken.


1. Less dual wield hand crossbow that can use bonus actions to make additional normal attacks, which ties with multiple attacks per bonus action. Per 5e:

"When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.

If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it."

Crossbow Expert is a feat that allows you to fire a ranged attack in melee, ignore the Loading property of crossbows, and most relevant to this article, allows a creature to fire a hand crossbow as a bonus action after taking the attack action with a one-handed weapon, which includes the hand crossbow.

Notice that loading property doesn’t exist and that you can wield dual hand crossbows in both hands, without needing to reload. They are more like akimbo guns at this point.

As for different ranges:

-Hand Crossbows range in 5e: 30 feet or 9 meters. In BG 3? 15 meters or 50 feet, basically double.
-Longbow range in 5e: 150 feet or 45 meters. In BG3 3? 18 meters or 60 feet.

You can see the problem already. With such a low difference in range combined with being able to make additional attacks with bonus leads to the current issues.

2. Shove being a bonus action: sleep is useless, because one guy that passes the save can wake everyone up. It hurls people 20 feet or more, while it should only do 5 feet, etc. It’s dumb and a reason why instant death pits are so disgusting.

3. House rules don’t often make the game better, they make it worse. Just like Larian did. Case in point, I came across a DM who used Dexterity to hit with every weapon and strength for damage.

So, it doesn't matter if you are playing barbarian, fighter, paladin, etc. All needed high dex to fight effectively, which was nothing more but a massive nerf to all martials as you needed both strength and Dexterity to hit enemies and deal damage. No more accurate slender Archer with high dexterity or powerful brutes, with low dex but massive strength. Everyone builds exactly the same.

It’s true that no computer game can ever replace tabletop, but Larian went out of their way to turn 5e into Divinity Original Sin 3 Baldur's Gate Edition of Electric Boogalo.

dufe if you nerf haste to option you telling no1 will use it any more cause there is other concentration spells like stone skin that reduce psysical dmg by half

you just want to make haste useless that no1 will use it any more

insted nerfig haste give others spells boosts like remove concentration effect to cast it more often

spells i only use on sorc:
dual firebolt
ray on single target
haste as buff
fire ball aoe
misty step movemet
if immune to fire, magic missle
if immune to fire lighting spells from level 3 and 6

rest spells from sorc are garbage

if want summoner go necro wizzard and summon army of undead and elementals

rest spells in this game is shit, cc are trash too cause is better to kill any1 than cc it

ofc that from dps and utility not speaking of heals and buffs

That’s the issue with Larian not the haste spell. Haste is fantastic in 5e already, in BG3 its just broken. As for not using haste, did you know that bless with a staff from Underdark adds 2d4 to ALL saving throws and attack rolls?

Concentration is a part of balancing in 5e, it's supposed to limit power of the casters, who are already considered way better than most martials in 5e, especially with late game. Do you know why haste is so powerful? It's because other spells are shit or rebalanced by Larian.

Hypnotic pattern? Lasts 2 turns instead of 10, shove clears it, nuff said.

Polymorph allowing you to turn allies into Giant Apes or a T-Rexes? Nope, can only turn an enemy for 5 turns into a sheep, if they fail a saving throw.

Larian seems to have hate boner for all control spells and prefers big damage numbers and explosions over everything else.

I agree with those - coming from tabletop, I was a bit surprised, how they implemented some spells. I would at least put the requirements for multiclass in again, it really doesn't make sense to make a wizard with 8 intelligence or a fighter with 8 strength, just because you can get items later.
And yes, shove as a bonus action is really bad.

I would rather be happy Larian fixing some remaining bugs and further improving Act 3 (which was quite decent, mind you but it could have been a bit better). I've already accepted the rules as they are.

nefing haste would make casers complity garbage

only setup would be good fighter 6/barb 6, monk, paladin, life cleric

casters are allready shity when half spells are concentration

hypnotic patern is shit like any others cc in this game cause they miss all the time, its better to use action to damage and kill target, or heal ally insted using garbage CC

concentration is not for balance casters, its making them shit, baldurs gate 2 didnt had shit like concentration and casters was ok

if you telling me that haste work like yy
you say and use concentration that make this spell complitly shit cause i can use stone skin insted that give shitload ehp for meles and dont need barb any more with this and even you have barb and sorc 3 characjters have 50% less dmg from psysical, if you nerf haste stone skin will be new meta concetration

just give stone skin to cleric and cast spirt guardian and watch how enemies burn in light

I agree for some of them. But what about the new players and the inexperienced???
Dosnt matter what everyone say now to change this and that.
Currently there are more new players then veterans.
Ofc on the long run veterans and fans will stay so they need something to.
That mean touching the base rules will upset more ppl then satisfyng the minority .
I almost 90% sure that Larian will not do this.
Its way more better to make a new difficulty and let the new gamers experience bg3 as it is.

melees are already way mor supperior than casters here cause casters have limit of spells and after that they are useless when fighter or barb or monk dont have stamina system to how limg they can fight, they have fight infinite time and they are nit tired and do same damage where caster are tired they more they fight

Especially for new players to dnd it would be helpful to have an implementation close to the original rules. Because instead of simply learning dnd by playing the game you learn also the skewed action economy of bg3 (like why does every dual wielder has to have a 3 level dip into Thief? why does haste give another 3 attacks to fighters? also why do I keep ac from shield while using a longbow?) As a new player you think you figured dnd out while in fact you just identified some flawes in the mechanics of bg3.

So yeah, looking forward using that rules as written mod in the next play through. The changes to the bg3 ruleset seem plausible right away even without having played 5e before.

many ppls dont give a single fuck about dnd, for them like me is another turn bassed cRPG

It's not that I especially care for dnd per se, but I care for a ruleset well thought through which apparently dnd already provides.

There is always going to be some level of translation from tabletop to CP game unless your goal is to provide 100% tabletop experience, which I do not thing was every aimed for.

One note in the mod the OP linked stood out to me, the removal of critical failure on skill rolls. Personally I like this feature. There is an element of risk to ANYTHING and even a master at a skill can make a mistake. By allowing that simple chance for skill failure no matter the bonus you introduce that reality. The issue for this however comes back to a limitation of the DnD system which is using a D20 instead of percentile. So how about a compromised fix. If you roll a Natural 1 then you have a reroll if you roll a 1 or 2 on the second roll you have auto fail.

I would like to see some of the more base DnD features return to the game. I would love an option to roll for my stats as well the original racial modifiers.

Actually you can make a Fighter with Str 8 just fine in D&D5 ?

He has to have Dex 13 then, though. Only if his Dex is lower than 13, he has to have Str 13 or better. Either works.

Gonna add one more change I wish they would undo, not sure why they decided for the Initiative roll to be on a D4, please for the love of God move it back to the D20.

I do think haste is OP, though I will disagree with the OP saying that alpha striking is the "best and only" strategy. Specifically, the "only" bit. The game can be played perfectly fine without a single cast of haste, without a single use of a haste or haste-like potion. Edit: the quote from Soren Johnson, of Civ fame, springs to mind: “Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game”. If you are optimizing the fun out of the game, simply stop doing that and focus on maximizing the fun instead. And note, this still allows those who have fun optimizing things to the max to do their thing, because min/maxing is something that increases their fun.

There are definitely some things I think should be adjusted, though. I don't know how it is in 5E, but the idea that the Bard's Slashing Flourish (ranged) can pick the same target twice, while the Slashing Flourish (melee) cannot, says to me that one or the other is bugged. Probably the former given the description of the skill. That is far more responsible for hand crossbow abuse than 3m of extra range.