Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

And that's great that you like it! I think at the very least most of us here agree that what's already in the game should stay in the game, but it does (ideally) need to be built upon. However, for me and many others it's often like... "You can't save everyone" - well, why can't I? If you (as in, the plot) are going to tell me that, give me a reason better than "because I said so".

As you yourself said and as aoife pointed out, tieflings/Halsin vs. Minthara and Balduran vs. Orpheus are choices. There's a clear answer there - "You can't save everyone, because these things here are mutually exclusive, it's either or". I have no qualms with that.

There's no "either/or" in Karlach's case. There's also no "Here, try all these options and see for yourself that none of them help" thing going on there.

So like. Until there's a clear "You may try, but in the end it's pointless" debunking of the already-in-game options we may try, I and many others will remain feeling like it was possible, we were just not allowed to try. And for as long as we feel like we could've tried harder and weren't allowed to, we will believe that IF we could try, we could help her (nothing says otherwise, after all). To that end, a happier ending remains tangible. There are two solutions to that - either we're right and it is achievable, and then adding new content will let us help her, or the writers are adamant on the tragedy they've written, but then they'll need to convince us that we really, really, REALLY couldn't help. It will suck, but at least it will feel final.

Well, that, or they don't change a thing, of course, but that's another matter entirely.

OR, as per example with Minthara and Orpheus, helping Karlach might be a possibility BUT it involves some harsh choice with strong enough consequences that players may consider not to. Or it is tied to some quest or event or a trial that's easy to fail. So that when the tragic ending comes, it actually does feel like, well. You can't save everybody.

(although in that case I already have one fictional city destroyed for one girl's life under my belt, don't try me)

I mean, I'll admit, the baseline is, of course, "Karlach doesn't deserve this why can't I give her a happier ending!", which is a testament to how likeable her character is, BUT this whole rage on her behalf wouldn't be quite so loud if her end didn't feel like a forced failure on the player's part (with options galore all around you) and missing quest parts instead of a planned thing set in stone.

I get it. Just understand in my particular case for me this choice was: help Karlach with her engine and let her go to hell or the ending with her death, and I was quite satisfied with what I got. In your case (and most other people here, as I understand it) the choice is only one: Karlach's death or Karlach's death.

And as for how she could be given another clearer "or" choice, I think it could be tied in with Wyll and her devil, especially given their relationship with Karlach stretching through the game, something along the lines of Wyll sacrificing himself for Karlach or making a new pact with his deviless for her, I'm not sure, a thought that just came to mind thanks to your breakdowns.

Nobody is suggesting to replace her existing endings.

We are asking for her to have a meaningful quest (much like literally all of the other companions got) that can also lead to her heart being fixed - because, if you ask me, her 'quest' as it is now is just two fetch quests and a wish.

Compare her sad journal to the rest of companions and you'll see why this thread exists in first place.

I totally get the appeal of an ending where she dies! There's definitely something cathartic about it. I just don't like feeling that it was my only option.

I think, really, that we're all on the same page: we want to be able to create the story that resonates with us. For you, it's Karlach's death, for me it isn't, and I'd love it if we could both get to choose the ending that's right for us. ^-^

I've been focusing on Astarion, Karlach and Minthara the most in my walkthroughs. Well shit... that's where the "sad journal" really is. Well and Minsk and Jaheira, but they appear only in the third act, so they don't have much content, and even less if you play not as Dark Urge. But I'm also familiar with the quests of all the other Origin characters. And yeah I've got them all running through my head right now, and Karlach's quest looks like "Bring it, give it, go f*ck yourself".

The one character I'm not familiar with at all is Halsin, because of Minthara. I always kill him and only know that he can help in act 2 with restoring the land from the curse. (although why can't the Moon Maiden's Blade and Isobel do that?).

Well it's more like "Karlach's death or forcing Karlach back into her place of trauma which she adamantly didn't want to go back to", to most of us it just feels approximately equally bad (as in, unsatisfactory and/or unhappy, not as in badly executed, no) to the point some people even stop playing since they don't get a better option in the end. (I am not above being selfish and I did convince her to return, but would sure love to do something more substantial instead.)

Choosing between her or Wyll in some way would've been a strong option, especially considering how willing they both would to die for one another (what with Karlach not believing she'll live anyway and with Wyll chronically putting himself before others). Not sure it could or would be logically implemented at the point their stories are currently developed to, but the idea is interesting. (Considering that Wyll was done even dirtier in terms of content amount and Karlach seems to be more popular among fans, though, that's just setting the poor guy up).

Now, a pact I believe has been brought up as an option multiple times in this thread, with Mizora or with Raphael. Granted, the House of Hope quest proved it's kinda easy-ish to just steal your contract and kill the devil you made it with (unless they made sure to contractually sign your soul off to Hell in case of their death), but at the very least that would be a whole thing and would definitely count as "trying"

I know, right? :")

Yeah I hear Minthara is a whole other case of quest mess right now, and I see lots of people annoyed with that too. I also hear her romance is still partially bugged despite patches and hotfixes supposedly fixing it, that truly sucks.

Halsin also doesn't have much, but at least for them there's an excuse of not being Origin characters (same for Minsc and Jaheira). Karlach is an Origin character and she isn't even on the promo art (she's not even on the collector's edition box! And that one has Halsin instead!) and her quest is also, well, yes, bring two things, kill one guy you were supposed to kill anyway (unless you decide otherwise) and there's no special cutscene for that (apart from the gorgeous monologue after the fact, that one is great) or you can forget to bring her there altogether.

And then there's a bunch of that same material lootable all over Act 3? And for what? Like, it just feels like something is supposed to happen or be done and it never does.

Now I can fully understand your indignation, especially since I am a member of a similar camp, and experience similar emotions and feelings with the occasional desire to put the game on hold and wait for patches. (Specifically, I want Minthara fixed and more content made for it, it's very sad to see it in its current form).

Yes precisely because Wyll and Karlach are willing to die for each other, it seems to me that something related to him would be logical, it is not necessary to kill him, but it is possible to link him with some very serious pact like Bhaal spawn.

And about the House of Hope and stealing the pact, if the pact is made with Mizora or Zariel, I don't think it can be broken or stolen so easily, because Raphael and Zariel have different levels of power.

Though considering how easily Dark Urge and Gortash stole the Crown from Mephistopheles, then....

Wait a minute....... she's not on collector's edition but Halsin is? Oook. Not to dismiss Halsin's importance but the fact they used him instead of Karlach who's an origin character is such an odd decision.

And I'll admit, Karlach still not being added in the promo pic (we all know which pic) bothers me a lot. Lmao.

The only explanation i can think of is that they didn't expect Karlach to get as popular as she did AND that she was a late addition, otherwise it really doesn't make any sense.

Firstly, I appreciate your insights on Karlach's ending in BG3, it resonates a lot with the split perspective I share on the character. Your perspective is entirely valid; the dissonant and tragic climax to her character arc does indeed accentuate the unpredictability and, often, the harshness of fate – both in the game's universe and, as you pointed out, in the real world. That said, while understanding and respecting the narrative choices of the developers, I think the consensus of this thread is to advocate for an additional ending option.

One of the key features of role-playing games like BG3 is the variety of narrative paths available to players. While the tragic ending serves as a poignant reminder of life's unpredictability, offering an alternate, more hopeful conclusion doesn’t negate that point. Instead, it broadens the scope of experiences available to players. It allows for a wider spectrum of emotional engagement, ensuring players who want a break from the often grim real world have a chance to see their favorite character find some semblance of happiness.

Throughout the storyline, Karlach constantly battles her impending doom, holding onto hope even in the bleakest of situations. While the bittersweet and tragic endings are artistically and narratively strong, offering an ending where her enduring hope pays off can serve as a testament to her resilience and the broader theme of hope's power.

Many players become deeply attached to in-game characters. While tragic endings can be deeply moving and memorable, they can also leave a lasting sense of sorrow. By offering an alternate ending, players are given the choice to decide Karlach's fate based on their own emotional journey and relationship with the character.

Advocating for an additional ending doesn’t necessarily mean discarding the original one. Both can exist in parallel, preserving the originally intended narrative while providing an option for those seeking something different. This approach ensures the hard work of the writers isn't "ruined" or diminished but rather expanded upon.

In conclusion, while I completely understand where you're coming from and respect the strength of the narrative crafted by the developers, I believe there's room for multiple endings that cater to diverse player experiences. After all, a story’s strength lies not just in its conclusion, but in the journey and the choices that lead there.

I would disagree with the idea karlachs current story is welldone or satisfying. For many of the reasons tarrax has alrdy laid out. But if you enjoy it then thats ok aswell. But the whining* as you call it is just straight up valid critque from a story aspect aswell as the glsring issues of being forced into her ending with no way to adjust course in a way that feels fullfilling to the player. I mean its 2 fetch quests. That ultimateky doesnt matter if you pay attention to them or not.

And please if you enjoy that ending thats fine. But larian listening to feedback and givibg us an option to SAVE her does not in anyway take away from the tragic endings she alrdy has...if thats something some ppl enjoy then just keep doing that playthrough. But for many ppl here we want an OPTION to save her andhave her stay. For reasons alrdy peppered through out this thread

Oooh that's one big pain. Romance is non-existent and what is there is heavily bugged.

Ahahahahahahaha Really? WTF?

And actually I have my own little story also related to posters and characters on them. After playing as Dark Urge on the evil path with Minthara, I was very upset that Minthara is not on the posters (it's understandable), but Dark Urge? Especially considering how much he means to the plot of the game, he's not? Really? And on Larian's site you can find a render of Dark Urge, who uses the same light and colors as the rest of the characters on the poster on the game's styme page, so he was supposed to be there, but he was removed or just at the last moment when everything was ready they didn't add him. I was very upset, and I decided to make my own poster (with blackjack and whores) took the render of Dark Urge from the site and for lack of render Minthara I found a 3D model and made the necessary renders for me, now I'm working on the back of the poster, made a bunch of screenshots of the temple of Bhaal and its surroundings to then how to use this material. That's about it.

Halsin is there because, for some reason, there are people out there who really like their bears.

I completely agree that actual endings are very emotional. But as we all said 1000 times before, the possibility to save her especially with all clues in act 3 should be possible for sure. If you romance her or at least care about her and complete her quest, you should be able to save her and stay in Faerun (this is what isn't possible). If you don't complete her quest (which is now marked as completed, but it is not true), you or Wyll or all three can go to Avernus, or you can let her die in peace. And if you don't care at all, you can let her die alone without noticing.

So what we all here are missing is the not implemented (removed) possibility to fix her engine.

Yes, I agree with you completely, and that the more diverse choices the better, and with the fact that sometimes you just want to take a break from this dark world and just immerse yourself in this magical world and take a break from everything that surrounds you in reality. And about how people can get very attached to game characters and want the best for them, yeah, I got very attached to Minthara myself.

But I guess, I don't know, over the many games I've played, I've gotten tired of good stories with happy endings. And that's why I'm immensely grateful to BG3 for the experience and the feeling that it was able to give me thanks to the evil walkthrough, although it's not perfect, but it's just incredible and feels like a breath of fresh air, when the game doesn't force you to go the way of the good guy, but allows you to go the way of the villain and even argues some advantages, wow. just wow. That's rare.

There's another thing. I don't know why, but the plot of Karlach reminded me of The Last Of Us 2, maybe because of Karlach's monologue after killing Gortash, and despite the fact that I don't like the plot of TLOU2, I really liked the plot of Karlach, maybe they are really similar just Larian unlike the developers of TLOU wrote it much softer(? I'm not sure, I can't find the words) and neater compared to the same plot of TLOU where they shove scenes with head smashing with a club in our faces in the beginning, and that's why personally I was able to accept and understand the plot of Karlach as it is, while the plot of TLOU is not. Maybe TLOU developers should learn from Larian how to make such plots. I don't know where I got that idea from, maybe I'm overthinking it, maybe it's pulling an owl over a globe

I would argue that letting her die Not Alone is a thing that should definitely stay as an equal alternative to Avernus regardless of better endings added (assuming any).

It's been very clear, looking at people's opinions, that for some staying with her as she dies felt like a better and more loving option that pushing her back to Avernus. It's a personal thing changing from person to person, yes, but it's definitely not only a "if you don't care" option. Some people care in such a way that makes Avernus a no-go for them, but making sure she dies loved feels cathartic and right.

As in, the whole "accepting death/injustice instead of spinning the circle of abuse further" and "revenge changes nothing" thing? I suppose I can see that.

...however I am personally a sucker for maybe pointless and potentially self-sabotaging revenge stories and committing questionable moral choices because your character is chronically unable to let go (see Ellie and prior to that Abby in TLOU2's case), so if I had an opportunity my Tav would absolutely go rampaging in Avernus or whatever. Especially in case of romances, love me a dangerous devotion trope. (Not TLOU-applicable, but once again, Life is Strange comes to mind pretty often. I said I'll save her and I'm saving her, iykyk)

Now you know who wouldn't like any of those things done for her, that's right, Karlach herself.

...that would be a cruel irony, huh? Here, you can save her - but you personally lose her (as a lover or a friend) in return.

(my Tav wouldn't hesitate though)