Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

Hm. Tonedeaf as in which meaning? (asking totally chill and respectfully, of course, we're clearly on the same side here, heh, just for the sake of discussion)

I mean, to me it seems like one of the most logical directions to take if you consider how that choice would go? As in,
Or do you mean that last line, 'cause in that case
OR. Orrrr do you mean that the 'cause in that case. Yeah? Yeah.

But also thematically it's fair, I think? Like, how ELSE was that gonna go. The "suddenly it's fine, they're gonna be fine, don't worry about it" interpretation of the scene was even more jarring and pissed people of even worse from what I've seen.

(Now, the treatment of all that as a 'good' ending by some folks (don't mean the ones who just like the current endings in general, as established!) and the godforsaken phrasing of 'ending she deserves' - still think a social intern screwed up on that, but the damage is done - does look interesting in this light.)

What it's actually underlining is, again, the lack of ending options.
P.S. has to be said however that there's no use to get too fired up (heh) over a devnote - we are not meant to see them, after all, and they're not meant for us, they give context to actors and such.

I'm also guessing that both the devnote and PR statement were written before the devs actually had time to parse people's complaints with the ending and not just the lack of an epilogue scene. If you look waaaayyyyy back at the start of this thread one of the things our fearless leader G4RIIK asked for was confirmation that the Avernus ending wasn't just Karlach going back into slavery but with a buddy this time. Technically speaking the devs did address that complaint, and at the time they had much bigger fish to fry. Now that the game has launched pretty much everywhere it was supposed to and the easy complaints have been addressed, I imagine they have time to sit down and sketch out an ending that isn't such garbage.

One thing I am anxious about though is for them to pull a monkey's paw on us and have some ridiculous crap where if we fix her engine we can't touch her again or she turns evil or something. In which case I would probably have a cardiac event.

Shh dont give them those kinds of ideas! Lol just give me an option to fix her engine (or preferably replace it with a real heart) and let me open a Tavern with her damn it

I really honestly think that it would do a lot of good for our hearts to be at least soooomewhat, sliiightly prepared for

1. Nothing happening
2. A monkey paw twist
3. Getting more content and a full upgraded quest and such and such but it still ends in tragedy only, just more firmly and logically this time.

While fully hoping for the best, of course, but you know. Hurts less to be knocked down if you know where you'll land. Or something like that.

Also yeah I do think we need to remember that at the beginning of this thread parts of our complaints were "Why is it fade to black, we don't know what happened in Avernus or if they even GOT there in time!" and "Why does Wyll offering to go override a romanced Tav", both of which were technically addressed. I'm pretty sure someone was directly saying "I'd be fine just with just a cutscene of them emerging in Avernus ready to fight or something".

So whatever we think of the result, it bears to remember that we (as a thread, not individually) did, indeed, ask for this

Now we'll just have to see what else we've asked for down the line.

EDIT:


listen I agree wholeheartedly, but some self-preservation never hurt nobody in fandom land ^^"

I'm not sure about the DND lore, if the local gnomes can do something like that, it seems to be more related to the Tieflings.

Anyway, thanks to your reasoning on how it could be implemented, another thought occurred to me. A contract with Raphael. It would even have the amusing irony that to appease/get rid of the devil's Karlach engine you have to make a deal with the devil. And then just steal the deal from the House of Hope as in the case of the Hammer. Just seriously what kind of sense, interest, motivation should a player have to pay attention to Orpheus Hammer at all? Much less trying to get it through a deal with the devil..... That's pretty stupid, if you ask me. We only find out about this hammer at the beginning of Act 3 (if I'm not mistaken) and all we need it for is to free Orpheus (not counting Hope, but we may not find out about it at all if we don't go into the house, so that's another reason why there is no initial motivation), but why should we free Orpheus if everything is fine? We are protected from Absolute's influence, the larva gives us abilities, Mind Flayer wants to help us and doesn't want to harm or threaten us in any way (of course he acts in his own interests, but those interests are similar to ours). And if we've already met Ansur by then, and we find out who Mind Flayer really is, there's even less reason to kill him or oppose him in any way. The whole game we're given no doubts or warnings about our mind flayer, except at the beginning, and that's more like: "Oh my god I've got some kind of worm in my head I need to get it out of there right away", rather than being just a kick start to the whole plot of the game. But over time, as the game progresses, you realize that the larva is only useful as long as the Mind Flayer in the prism protects it from Absolute's influence, and you will have no desire to get rid of it to make this protection disappear.

There's a lot more to write on this topic, but it won't be about Karlach directly, but about the fact that Daisy on Balduran was a stupid mistake, because Daisy would have been the very motivator to get rid of the maggot, to question the credibility of her and her abilities (as it was in EA).

But what I'm getting at is that the player would be more motivated and willing to help Karlach, a character he's grown fond of and sympathetic to (f*ck, I just love her "oh hi Mark!" iykyk), than to get the Hammer he doesn't understand why he needs it, and for that he'd be willing to make a deal with the devil.

Seriously, I just don't understand who would make a deal with the devil for the Hammer, unless it's for the sake of lae'zel's plot (which as a character I personally never liked to be honest) or just for the sake of interest in what will come out of it, because by that point it's clear that the main storyline can't change critically from that, so why not? It's just that for all my two careful playthroughs of the game, this very game personally did not give me a clear motivation and justification for getting rid of the maggot, but just the opposite. (actually for me it's very frustrating, I wish Daisy had stayed, it would have been much more interesting to fight with mental torment like Dark Urge than to just realize that the maggot is good, and the story as a whole would have looked more logical and coherent).

So yes, justice for Karlach. The game gives solutions but no ways to suss them out or achieve them.

Good idea, no touching.

I think that would be a fair exchange, it would be consistent with the bittersweet endings they have lined up for her already. I would consider this to be a mostly ''good'' aligned ending. I don't think they want to modify the theme too much, so something like this could work.

She can live and run a tavern, she wouldn't be lonely in the same way she felt in Avernus (minus the touchy bits of loneliness). She can't touch anyone, like before her upgrades.

At least she can be around people she cares about and live a life on Faerun. Perhaps even make her a bit more powerful in exchange, adding some more bittergoodness.

Actually it would even make sense, you always have to pay for everything and give something back.

And damn guys, no offense to all of you here, I understand that you are very fanatical about this character and want as much content as possible with her and all that, I can understand it, I have a similar situation with Minthara, but damn that in this thread that in the thread related to Minthara people periodically go too far in their fantasies, for example, here they want to be able to open a tavern with Karlach, there they want Minthara can be recruited without the massacre of Tieflings (and similar proposals on both topics a lot, I understand). Specifically in my case, I just want Minthara to finally get her quest fixed and expanded, and that's it (which effectively means Origin status). It's just that the less I think of things, the less upset we'll be about the real state of affairs. In any case, I think something like this for Karlach and Minthara can be expected only in DE, not before, so now the main concern of developers is bugs and breakages

The problem I have with this idea is it still doesn't resolve the core problem of her character. If we look at this as a choice based RPG, where we are rewarded for our choices and our investment into characters, we should be given a decent resolution. If we don't fix her engine and bring her back to the point she was at before she met Gortash, her storyline is still unresolved and is still unsatisfying. Also it really wouldn't make sense in universe since the overheating was a result of her engine malfunctioning and could be fixed by simple shielding. I want a good ending, not a "not as bad as it could've been" ending.

Like I said few pages ago, the 'careful what you wish for' part. Because my god, I experienced that very recently with a certain game. And it wasn't fun.

Edit


Do you want our girl to suffer more? I mean her whole issue apart from her engine going haywire is her inability to touch people. She's touch starved, very much so. This i think will affect her mentality much more than before, knowing she will live but she won't be able to touch people. Again.

Nahhh, perish that thought.

She already has bittersweet/sad endings. One good ending is all she needs for. Much like the other companions.

I know what you mean, but tbh bittersweetness is kind of Cyberpunk's whole deal. This is DnD and god dammit if I can keep Gale's dumbass from going nuclear for doing something that was his own fault, I should be able to fix an engine.

Also that's a great point. My second largest problem with her (after robbing us of player agency) is that we have too many bittersweet endings for her, and adding just another variant of "Karlach's life still sucks" doesn't really rectify that. If there's going to be a tradeoff, it should be something that doesn't just cause her to want to return to Avernus again, because I bet good money if she romanced Tav she'd rather go to Avernus than not touch them.

The great thing about Cyberpunk is that even though each ending is tragic, they all say something unique and different about the value of a life and what it means to come to terms with death. And ultimately that message is left up to the player.

Karlachs ending is just "Bad things happen to good people lol"

There's no subtly or complexity. No deeper meaning or thought behind it. No payoff or emotional release. Just mindless trauma-porn.

Karlachs endings are the types you would need dozens of hours to build up to, not 3 side quests and then throwing your hands up and not trying any more.

Larian bit off WAY more than they could chew with her story and now she's written into a corner.

Oh, i meant tonedeaf in regards to the rest of karlach's character and what she has been saying to us all game long! it's super sudden, not supported by any prior dialogue ("i'd rather die than go back there") and just happens 'cause. of course the devnote isn't meant for us, i was not getting heated (heh) just merely taken aback by how abrupt and sudden the wording felt, a bit rushed? i don't know if i explained myself fully ahah

Ah, well, that whole choice feels inconsistent in regards to the lead up. In regards to abruptness, definitely. They added some stuff to prepare us more for the inevitable, but there's no build up to choosing the other option, only the refusal of it up until the end. If anything, however, "The attitude switch is so abrupt because she's putting on her mask you've never seen on her before" is as true-to-character as we can get in the current standing of things. (The current standing of things being the player very suddenly swaying her this way at the last second).


The great thing about Cyberpunk is also that by each tragic ending you can fully say with your chest that you DID, actually, try EVERYTHING and exhausted every option within your reach. Which, you know.


I sorta agree in terms of narrative tropes, but damn can I sell my soul to a devil instead ;w;

Someone did already point out that almost none of our companions get a perfect fairytail ending without a catch, there's always someone/something lost or something hurting or some danger coming or a battle to be fought (okay, almost always), so even if we get a whole new 'good' ending for our girl I think it'll hardly be a tavern and all that fluff. Not that we can't dream, of course.

(Touching thing is harsh tho. Generally-shortened-but-still-longer-than-five-minutes lifespan? Permanently weakened abilities? A pact to climb out off? Zariel's forces hunting her again, forever? A trade-off for someone else's life?..)

I like those tradeoffs much better. A good sacrifice (like with the other characters) should be something that is uncomfortable to give up, but still doable now that said character has a renewed sense of purpose and a support system to fall back on (Shadowheart and her parents, Astarion not being able to go outside). Taking away the first thing we fix for her would honestly just be cruel.

This is if Larian is absolute with maintaining the bittersweet theme, I feel this could be meeting in the middle.

I don't think they want a simple exchange when it comes to Karlach. There has to be a price.

I don't think that it would make any sense narratively to do something as cruel as take away the ability for her to touch anyone. There's no way she'd be unable to do that with a new heart.

However. That being said, one big trade-off that COULD work and be narratively alright is that she would be unable to rage and use soul coins for the remainder of the game. Raging and being a powerhouse has been her virtue for the decade that she's killed and battled for Zariel. She is excited to have been juiced up with the first upgrade and even moreso when we get soul coins.

Obviously with the engine gone, coins are of no use. So she can't be buffed for the final battles you wanna play out depending on where in Act 3 you are. As to not being able to rage, she could be forced to calm tf down as to not overdonit for the newly attached heart that yes, is magically healed in and all, but given how much power and force she's been able to unleash, that heart can never achieve.

That's the whole reason she got mutilated. To be more. More force. More power. More fire. Now if we take that away, left is a Karlach that would've grown up and been if she wasn't sold by Gortash. Does that make her less of a fearsome warrior? No. Not at all. That's always gunna be a part of her. But it's a bit like undergoing a big surgery that changes your life and you can't do 100% of what you used to before, as your body may not be able to handle that.

I think her being less powerful despite her level, unable to rage which is a big thing for barbarians and her in particular, and having to calm down from all the fighting adventures she thought she'd go on for the sake of calming down and settling a bit earlier in life (tavern, stories, brawling) would be a good deal. That way she pays a price like Astarion and Shadowheart, they can live full lives, but there's one thing that always is less than what it was. A price paid. But not a cruel one.

Thoughts?

Indeed, I understand. However, Larian may have intended to have Karlach be the token tragedy and are sticking to their decision.

They at the very least need to clean it up and explain away why it isn't possible to fix her engine, too many plot holes as people have mentioned, certainly sours the overall experience right towards the end.

This I think is also a good tradeoff, and is still suitably tragic since she LOVES fighting. The big problem I have with the no touching tradeoff is it doesn't really feel like a thematically appropriate price to pay.

If we look at Karlach's life as being divided into two halves (as foreshadowed in the dev notes) Karlach Cliffgate and Karlach Demonsbane, in the story we are progressively moving from one end of the spectrum to the other. Karlach Demonsbane was isolated, both emotionally and literally, and was unable to make emotional connections (represented in the story as her being literally unable to touch when you first meet her). The first part of her quest moves her the first step from Demonsbane to Cliffgate, still a rage filled killing machine, but one who can connect with others. This continuum finally reaches its decision point at the end:

Either she can go somewhere where she can live on and fight as much as she wants, with friends this time so it's tolerable for the long term (the Demonsbane side wins).

Or she can hang up her axe and start over, with a quiet life, one where she's still capable but nowhere near as powerful as she once was (the Cliffgate side wins).

The point is I feel that there's many more interesting directions to go such as a secret, hard to get questline; a choice between sparing Gortash or killing him; or choosing between the two contrasting sides of her personality than just vapid tragedy for its own sake.