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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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Yeah, I totally agree. I don't know why you're trying to convince me of something I already agree with, though
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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I don't think it was as much about trying to convince anyone that their opinion is invalid (you can like the endings and choices, I'm genuinely happy for you if you do!) but more about the comment that people in this thread and anywhere else are Whining and wanting the devs to change and remake the entire Karlach thing.
That's not the case. Or rather, that's valid criticism as many others in the past pages have written out already. It's about the fact that we are supposed to be presented with choices to carve each playthrough into something of our own and Karlach is the most limited Origin there is. Her entire questline tones down to two fetch quests, no dungeons, no bosses (you aren't forced or even poked to bring her with you when you meet and fight Gortash, tho it may affect Tavs reputation with her). There's nothing grandiose, hell there's barely anything other than some thin meat on bones whrn it comes to the questline.
The endings are the same no matter what choices you make with her, or other characters that are mentioned in her story. It's all about a few cutscenes - some of the best cutscenes of the entire gaming world if you ask me - and an ending that is chosen, well, at the end. It's not affected in any way other than a click of your mouse button then and there. Only thing that happens that's affected by our choice is if we fully ignore her fetch quests and don't calm the engine down enough to give her time to say goodbye/go to Avernus. That's it. That's all there is.
In a linear game, her death vs Avernus would be a fantastic story. Truly, a masterpiece of tragedy to give all this hell snd defy your doom with living as much and as hard as you can, until you can't anymore. But this is a story we affect every step of the way. Every character gets multiple main choices, multiple variations, thanks to player choice and how much care we put into their respecrive storylines. Karlach is the odd one out, and we Whine (read: ask and discuss) what would be a good means to amplify the amazingness of this game further and make Karlach, who's so fucking loved by everyone, into a character with a rightful story with depth and pieces to puzzle together, so she too can get ending choices that don't doom her in one way or another.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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I don't think it was as much about trying to convince anyone that their opinion is invalid (you can like the endings and choices, I'm genuinely happy for you if you do!) but more about the comment that people in this thread and anywhere else are Whining and wanting the devs to change and remake the entire Karlach thing.
That's not the case. Or rather, that's valid criticism as many others in the past pages have written out already. It's about the fact that we are supposed to be presented with choices to carve each playthrough into something of our own and Karlach is the most limited Origin there is. Her entire questline tones down to two fetch quests, no dungeons, no bosses (you aren't forced or even poked to bring her with you when you meet and fight Gortash, tho it may affect Tavs reputation with her). There's nothing grandiose, hell there's barely anything other than some thin meat on bones whrn it comes to the questline.
The endings are the same no matter what choices you make with her, or other characters that are mentioned in her story. It's all about a few cutscenes - some of the best cutscenes of the entire gaming world if you ask me - and an ending that is chosen, well, at the end. It's not affected in any way other than a click of your mouse button then and there. Only thing that happens that's affected by our choice is if we fully ignore her fetch quests and don't calm the engine down enough to give her time to say goodbye/go to Avernus. That's it. That's all there is.
In a linear game, her death vs Avernus would be a fantastic story. Truly, a masterpiece of tragedy to give all this hell snd defy your doom with living as much and as hard as you can, until you can't anymore. But this is a story we affect every step of the way. Every character gets multiple main choices, multiple variations, thanks to player choice and how much care we put into their respecrive storylines. Karlach is the odd one out, and we Whine (read: ask and discuss) what would be a good means to amplify the amazingness of this game further and make Karlach, who's so fucking loved by everyone, into a character with a rightful story with depth and pieces to puzzle together, so she too can get ending choices that don't doom her in one way or another. This
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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I think at this point we're all just kind of defensive. It's one thing when we got general different opinions, it's even a whole other thing to disagree on, uh, our methods and chances of succeeding, but remembering that for people on the outside it may seem like we're just demanding a happy ending for the heck of it and whining is frustrating. So naturally everyone feels the need to reiterate that it's not that shallow, in fact, even if we sort of got our point across already 
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2023
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It's so weird that Swen says in multiple interviews that the game was designed with 170 hours of cutscenes to allow players to play a game that 'they' could feel is tailored to them. They write their own story. And then after 100 hours of gameplay, Larian crams Larian's preferred ending down the player's throats. And most of the choices made become, meaningless. The player can define the journey, but no matter how that journey unfolds, the ending is what it is. Mass Effect 3 had this problem (and still does). Having bittersweet endings is fine for a movie, or a game with a linear story. But forcing such onto players in a game like this with massive choice, Larian needs to treat the endings the same as they treated the story. Check this: Lae'Zel. You romance Lae'Zel. To the point where she says no matter what happens, she wants your Tav by her side (Source of her joy). Then, in an act to save Baldur's Gate and keep Orpheus in a position to help depose Vlaakith, RP out of love for Lae'Zel, Tav becomes a mindflayer to combat the netherbrain. Lae'zel dumps you like a hot potato afterward. It's Larian's vision at the end and not a reflection of the journey the player did. And 'if' Larian is going to introduce the Lae'Zel character acting inconsistent to her stated intentions, there should be a flag or option for the player to know that is a stake in the decision. Such as a dialogue option to Lae'zel: "I'm willing to become a mindflayer to keep Orpheus intact and stop this threat, but I need to know that by doing so, you will still love me, etc etc" (THAT, would then be fair in making a decision of this magnitude instead of an arbitrary backfire that you have no method to weigh as a consequence of your decision. There is nothing in the game that alerts you to this possibility, just as nothing alerts you to the possibility Lae'zel will trash the romance if you encourage her to support Vlaakith. On both counts it's Larian asserting their preferred ending instead of respecting the player's journey)> And it's the same with Karlach. No matter what you do, you cannot change her engine going to overload (Larian does not respect this journey either). So you're left with two options. She dies, or she goes to Avernus. I wrote the following on a couple other threads about a way to resolve this that requires no new game mechanics. You befriend her, come to know her character, and depending on preference even romance her. She becomes a staple of 'your' experience in the game. You strive to fix her engine. You enlist Dammon's aid. And then Larian with Deus ex Machina comes in and says (Absolutely not, she has to die or go to Avernus, no happy ending for you). In a game that takes 100+ hours for most players, I suspect quite a few want to have the catharsis of riding off into the sunset. Some don't, and so the other endings exist. But many I wager (including me) want to live happily ever after.
Larian could even make it very hard to get to that happy ending. For example:
- Save Barcus at the windmill
- Save Barcus again at Grymforge
- Get Barcus to come to your camp and chat it up with him during a few long rests
- Work with Barcus at Last Light Inn
- Save Wulbren at Moonrise
- Get Wulbren's support in Act 3 along with Barcus to destroy the Foundry via a Runepowder bomb
- Rescue every single one of the Gondians in the Iron Throne
- Destroy the Steel Watch Foundry
- When Wulbren comes to finish off the Gondians after the Foundry is destroyed, use your persuasion to have him removed as the Ironhands leader and replace him with Barcus
- Gondians and Ironhands reconcile
(By the way EVERYTHING above is already in the game, nothing there would be new programming)
Then, as a way to say 'thank you', the only new thing would be the Gondians and Ironhands jointly, best metalworking gnomes on the planet, have the knowhow to take Dammon's work to the next level and fix Karlach's heart permanently. So not creating any new game scenarios. Just adding a layer of reward on a very deeply threaded set of side quests Act 1 to Act 3 which at any point if the player messes up, become undoable.
If Larian wants the player to sweat bullets to help Karlach stay on the Material Plane, make them go through what was outlined. It's not as easy as it sounds, especially on Tactician. Not only do you have to avoid these gnomes dying as collateral damage, you have to find them in the world through exploration.
Instead, Larian is trying to remove player agency at the tail end of the game, not provide it. It's an odd dynamic. For those of you who have seen the series Supernatural with the Winchesters, (Also spoilerville), it's what God did to Dean and Sam. First 14 seasons of the show they seemed to have agency but then it's revealed that it was all working toward a specific ending God had in mind. And Larian is the same way (not playing god of course, but rather wanting players to have a narrow set of endings according to how 'they' feel it should end.) There's so many of these. Shadowheart's parents. Lae'Zel if she swears to Vlaakith while being romanced trashing 80+ hours of gameplay work on that goal, having no way to bring Ansur around to your side even though you've persuaded liches, demons, devils, and undead to do your bidding. And yes, the whole Emperor/Orpheus Mindflayer decision. It's a bunch of bad options only. It's a bunch of key story points where Larian deprives players of true agency.
The reason it doesn't work is when you play through BG3, it's your game, not Larian's. And therefore for 'your' story, you may want to do that happy ending. Not everyone, but some people. I hope in time they add more autonomy to players for working towards endings that are meaningful to them.
Last edited by Vegor; 13/10/23 05:59 PM.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Lae'Zel. You romance Lae'Zel. To the point where she says no matter what happens, she wants your Tav by her side (Source of her joy). Then, in an act to save Baldur's Gate and keep Orpheus in a position to help depose Vlaakith, RP out of love for Lae'Zel, Tav becomes a mindflayer to combat the netherbrain. Lae'zel dumps you like a hot potato afterward. It's Larian's vision at the end and not a reflection of the journey the player did. Karlach is the same I mean while I understand what you're frustrated with here, that still has more logic and reactivity than Karlach's thing. You made a choice and that choice backfired (I would argue that it's natural for Lae'zel to not see what she perceives as a mindflayer with Tav's memories as Tav. That's not the way her people - or most of Faerun, really - view mindflayers. Therefore all promises are off.) - that's still a player's input. Do the other thing - get the other ending. What choices do we make that force Karlach's ending? None, it just happens (we can only make it suck somewhat less or worse for her, as mentioned). Well, apart from the very last second, which gets you a whiplash. I do agree with you about making the player sweat, like A LOT, for a better ending, if the player chooses to pursue one. Because as things stand now, I do choose to, but there's a block in my way. And all that you listed is indeed already in the game and could be used for a scenario like that or something similar. We all love to yap about an Avernus DLC, but really, just connecting the dots already placed and adding some flair to them could be more than enough. So yeah. Agency would be great here, whether is backfires or not.
![[Linked Image from tarraxahum.neocities.org]](https://tarraxahum.neocities.org/buttons/2rdo1pL.png)
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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- Save Barcus at the windmill
- Save Barcus again at Grymforge
- Get Barcus to come to your camp and chat it up with him during a few long rests
- Work with Barcus at Last Light Inn
- Save Wulbren at Moonrise
- Get Wulbren's support in Act 3 along with Barcus to destroy the Foundry via a Runepowder bomb
- Rescue every single one of the Gondians in the Iron Throne
- Destroy the Steel Watch Foundry
- When Wulbren comes to finish off the Gondians after the Foundry is destroyed, use your persuasion to have him removed as the Ironhands leader and replace him with Barcus
- Gondians and Ironhands reconcile I think this is the best way for them to incorporate a Karlach good ending, since most importantly, it's hard. We can have the Karlach dies and return to Avernus be the default endings, and have this be the secret good ending which both adds player agency in her story and gives her an almost secret questline. You can also have the conversation with Barcus about doing something about Karlach's engine after you kill Gortash so we get her monologue, and THEN the catharsis of our hard work being rewarded with a good ending.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Of course this whole thread is not about attacking people who like Karlachs endings. I also like actual endings, all of them are strong and really emotional (I cried a lot :)).
The original purpose here was to point out, that there is one ending obviously missing. And when the thread expanded, more and more things kept coming up about how the whole quest is empty and how many things need improvements comparing to other origin characters.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2023
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@Rae Correct. The existing endings are not invalid. And they are potent. The existing endings are not sufficient to reflect all of the branches player choice can take them. I'd contend there's more than one that a player could reasonably expect here. - Karlach dies because she refuses to go to Avernus
- Karlach returns to Avernus, with Tav/Wyll or even alone
- Karlach's engine gets fixed, she stays with Tav (Romance)
- Karlach's engine gets fixed, but she realizes after the harrowing journey that the world is not the place she remembers, and she chooses to go to Avernus (Non-Romance, Tav Evil Run)
- Karlach's engine gets fixed, and she stays to carve out a life for herself (Non-Romance, Tav Neutral or Good Run)
- Mizora provides Wyll a choice (If pact was broken) Zariel will remove the engine, Wyll signs an eternal pact, Karlach / Tav can influence outcome which then traces back to the other five endings and also affects Wyll's ending
These are examples only, but illustrate how Larian could more attentively respect a player's journey in a game that is ALL about choice and consequence. Not just funnel all choices into a couple immutable options, neither of which are cathartic, even if they are impactful.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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- Save Barcus at the windmill
- Save Barcus again at Grymforge
- Get Barcus to come to your camp and chat it up with him during a few long rests
- Work with Barcus at Last Light Inn
- Save Wulbren at Moonrise
- Get Wulbren's support in Act 3 along with Barcus to destroy the Foundry via a Runepowder bomb
- Rescue every single one of the Gondians in the Iron Throne
- Destroy the Steel Watch Foundry
- When Wulbren comes to finish off the Gondians after the Foundry is destroyed, use your persuasion to have him removed as the Ironhands leader and replace him with Barcus
- Gondians and Ironhands reconcile I think this is the best way for them to incorporate a Karlach good ending, since most importantly, it's hard. We can have the Karlach dies and return to Avernus be the default endings, and have this be the secret good ending which both adds player agency in her story and gives her an almost secret questline. You can also have the conversation with Barcus about doing something about Karlach's engine after you kill Gortash so we get her monologue, and THEN the catharsis of our hard work being rewarded with a good ending. Not to mention, this is what we all originally assumed was going to happen the first time we went through the game, it felt only natural to have it at the end of this mix of questchains
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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- Save Barcus at the windmill
- Save Barcus again at Grymforge
- Get Barcus to come to your camp and chat it up with him during a few long rests
- Work with Barcus at Last Light Inn
- Save Wulbren at Moonrise
- Get Wulbren's support in Act 3 along with Barcus to destroy the Foundry via a Runepowder bomb
- Rescue every single one of the Gondians in the Iron Throne
- Destroy the Steel Watch Foundry
- When Wulbren comes to finish off the Gondians after the Foundry is destroyed, use your persuasion to have him removed as the Ironhands leader and replace him with Barcus
- Gondians and Ironhands reconcile I think this is the best way for them to incorporate a Karlach good ending, since most importantly, it's hard. We can have the Karlach dies and return to Avernus be the default endings, and have this be the secret good ending which both adds player agency in her story and gives her an almost secret questline. You can also have the conversation with Barcus about doing something about Karlach's engine after you kill Gortash so we get her monologue, and THEN the catharsis of our hard work being rewarded with a good ending. Not to mention, this is what we all originally assumed was going to happen the first time we went through the game, it felt only natural to have it at the end of this mix of questchains 1000% true
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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- Save Barcus at the windmill
- Save Barcus again at Grymforge
- Get Barcus to come to your camp and chat it up with him during a few long rests
- Work with Barcus at Last Light Inn
- Save Wulbren at Moonrise
- Get Wulbren's support in Act 3 along with Barcus to destroy the Foundry via a Runepowder bomb
- Rescue every single one of the Gondians in the Iron Throne
- Destroy the Steel Watch Foundry
- When Wulbren comes to finish off the Gondians after the Foundry is destroyed, use your persuasion to have him removed as the Ironhands leader and replace him with Barcus
- Gondians and Ironhands reconcile I think this is the best way for them to incorporate a Karlach good ending, since most importantly, it's hard. We can have the Karlach dies and return to Avernus be the default endings, and have this be the secret good ending which both adds player agency in her story and gives her an almost secret questline. You can also have the conversation with Barcus about doing something about Karlach's engine after you kill Gortash so we get her monologue, and THEN the catharsis of our hard work being rewarded with a good ending. Not to mention, this is what we all originally assumed was going to happen the first time we went through the game, it felt only natural to have it at the end of this mix of questchains Yep, I was one of the rare souls that didn't actively look for spoilers or guides and spent so much time trying to find anything for Karlach in act3. I thought, maybe I missed something, maybe it's a secret thing and I basically explored every corner of the map. Nothing. So I decided to pay a visit to Gortash - my naive brain thought something could surely trigger after it. Well. Imagine my disappointment when i found out in the journal that was all for her. It felt so empty, so unrewarding, so frustrating. And after all that, I googled to be 100% sure I didn't miss anything in act 1 or 2 only to find out this is how her story ends.  Feel sorry for those who googled before finishing their game and the results killed their mood to continue. 
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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- Save Barcus at the windmill
- Save Barcus again at Grymforge
- Get Barcus to come to your camp and chat it up with him during a few long rests
- Work with Barcus at Last Light Inn
- Save Wulbren at Moonrise
- Get Wulbren's support in Act 3 along with Barcus to destroy the Foundry via a Runepowder bomb
- Rescue every single one of the Gondians in the Iron Throne
- Destroy the Steel Watch Foundry
- When Wulbren comes to finish off the Gondians after the Foundry is destroyed, use your persuasion to have him removed as the Ironhands leader and replace him with Barcus
- Gondians and Ironhands reconcile I think this is the best way for them to incorporate a Karlach good ending, since most importantly, it's hard. We can have the Karlach dies and return to Avernus be the default endings, and have this be the secret good ending which both adds player agency in her story and gives her an almost secret questline. You can also have the conversation with Barcus about doing something about Karlach's engine after you kill Gortash so we get her monologue, and THEN the catharsis of our hard work being rewarded with a good ending. Not to mention, this is what we all originally assumed was going to happen the first time we went through the game, it felt only natural to have it at the end of this mix of questchains Yep, I was one of the rare souls that didn't actively look for spoilers or guides and spent so much time trying to find anything for Karlach in act3. I thought, maybe I missed something, maybe it's a secret thing and I basically explored every corner of the map. Nothing. So I decided to pay a visit to Gortash - my naive brain thought something could surely trigger after it. Well. Imagine my disappointment when i found out in the journal that was all for her. It felt so empty, so unrewarding, so frustrating. And after all that, I googled to be 100% sure I didn't miss anything in act 1 or 2 only to find out this is how her story ends. Feel sorry for those who googled before finishing their game and the results killed their mood to continue. Oh for sure, i never google anything before finishing my first run. As you did, i spent my sweet time in act 3 and at one point i was convinced i had missed something crucial in the previous acts. When the credits rolled that's when i started googlin and discovered this forum/thread, where my sadness began ahah.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Found the parsed dialogue trees with devnotes for myself and been shuffling through them. Can't say I found anything hopeful (I'm sure if there was anything somebody would already be yelling about it), but it's curious to see how the return scene is described in the notes. "She snaps, and a flame appears at the tip of her finger. This snap triggers her fully into the current situation. Sadness is gone. Karlach Cliffgate is gone; Karlach Demonsbane is back. She hands the player one of the lit cigars as she speaks. The subtext here is "I would never have come back here, but I fucking love you, so let's do this thing together.")"
I mean, as much was clear from the scene itself I think, they did a good job with it. But the "Karlach Cliffgate is gone; Karlach Demonsbane is back." is doing a lot of work here regarding the attitude change and making it sink in that she's going back into survival mode, and solely because of you (while at the same time, another note prior to that points out that she sees the player's decision to come as a sacrifice on their part).
Makes me remember all those times Sam talked about how Karlach talked less and sounded differently (lower, gruffier, angrier) in Avernus, and all the in-game hints we've got to the fact that she wasn't allowed to be soft for all those years, despite desperately wanting to.
Even in the best interpretation Karlach in this ending will not be able to be the same Karlach we've met until we get her out of there. Ack.
I mean, and water is wet, but, like. That wording hit me hard.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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Found the parsed dialogue trees with devnotes for myself and been shuffling through them. Can't say I found anything hopeful (I'm sure if there was anything somebody would already be yelling about it), but it's curious to see how the return scene is described in the notes. "She snaps, and a flame appears at the tip of her finger. This snap triggers her fully into the current situation. Sadness is gone. Karlach Cliffgate is gone; Karlach Demonsbane is back. She hands the player one of the lit cigars as she speaks. The subtext here is "I would never have come back here, but I fucking love you, so let's do this thing together.")"
I mean, as much was clear from the scene itself I think, they did a good job with it. But the "Karlach Cliffgate is gone; Karlach Demonsbane is back." is doing a lot of work here regarding the attitude change and making it sink in that she's going back into survival mode, and solely because of you (while at the same time, another note prior to that points out that she sees the player's decision to come as a sacrifice on their part).
Makes me remember all those times Sam talked about how Karlach talked less and sounded differently (lower, gruffier, angrier) in Avernus, and all the in-game hints we've got to the fact that she wasn't allowed to be soft for all those years, despite desperately wanting to.
Even in the best interpretation Karlach in this ending will not be able to be the same Karlach we've met until we get her out of there. Ack.
I mean, and water is wet, but, like. That wording hit me hard. Holy shit. I mean... i'ts no secret that that i consider that ending incredibly tonedeaf for every reason i ever listed but reading solidified it and put it into perspective even more. "She snaps, and a flame appears at the tip of her finger. This snap triggers her fully into the current situation. Sadness is gone. Karlach Cliffgate is gone; Karlach Demonsbane is back. She hands the player one of the lit cigars as she speaks. The subtext here is "I would never have come back here, but I fucking love you, so let's do this thing together." This is CRAZY. THE WAY IT'S WORDED IS CRAZY. No wonder it was tonedeaf, it's incredibly hasty an abrupt. I really don't know how this flied, jeez. This is old news, i don't really know why it hit me like that, must be the wording as you already pointed out ahah
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Hm. Tonedeaf as in which meaning? (asking totally chill and respectfully, of course, we're clearly on the same side here, heh, just for the sake of discussion) I mean, to me it seems like one of the most logical directions to take if you consider how that choice would go? As in, we all know that Karlach isn't the character to lay down in misery and give up. She said so herself post-Gortash. So no use in getting depressed over being back, not her style. However, a cheery attitude and not thinking about bad things won't save her when she's in the middle of the worst thing happening. And she had ten years to hone out some mental armor and coping mechanisms, which, naturally, snap into place immediately when she's thrown back in. Very much believe that smoking was also Demonsbane's habit, an unhealthy coping mechanism, hence it coming back. Or do you mean that last line, 'cause in that case could sort of agree, but also it's kinda true, she would never come back if not for the player - Wyll gets some other devnote ofc - mattering enough to her to convince her otherwise. I've mentioned a couple of times that I do indeed consider my Tav selfish in doing so, and that line goes with it very well - albeit painfully. OR. Orrrr do you mean that the fact that it's worded in particular to hammer home the fact how much it affects her and that it was in some way a selfish choice on the part of the player, however she tries to appreciate it, as if meant to punish us for choosing so, like see, happy, Karlach you knew is gone anyway, just metaphorically, 'cause in that case. Yeah? Yeah. But also thematically it's fair, I think? Like, how ELSE was that gonna go. The "suddenly it's fine, they're gonna be fine, don't worry about it" interpretation of the scene was even more jarring and pissed people of even worse from what I've seen. (Now, the treatment of all that as a 'good' ending by some folks (don't mean the ones who just like the current endings in general, as established!) and the godforsaken phrasing of 'ending she deserves' - still think a social intern screwed up on that, but the damage is done - does look interesting in this light.) What it's actually underlining is, again, the lack of ending options. Do you want Karlach Cliffgate dead as in exploded, dead as in turned into a mindflayer, or dead as in shoved back and buried in her consciousness for self-preservation, ay? P.S. has to be said however that there's no use to get too fired up (heh) over a devnote - we are not meant to see them, after all, and they're not meant for us, they give context to actors and such.
Last edited by tarraxahum; 13/10/23 11:31 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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I'm also guessing that both the devnote and PR statement were written before the devs actually had time to parse people's complaints with the ending and not just the lack of an epilogue scene. If you look waaaayyyyy back at the start of this thread one of the things our fearless leader G4RIIK asked for was confirmation that the Avernus ending wasn't just Karlach going back into slavery but with a buddy this time. Technically speaking the devs did address that complaint, and at the time they had much bigger fish to fry. Now that the game has launched pretty much everywhere it was supposed to and the easy complaints have been addressed, I imagine they have time to sit down and sketch out an ending that isn't such garbage.
One thing I am anxious about though is for them to pull a monkey's paw on us and have some ridiculous crap where if we fix her engine we can't touch her again or she turns evil or something. In which case I would probably have a cardiac event.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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Shh dont give them those kinds of ideas! Lol just give me an option to fix her engine (or preferably replace it with a real heart) and let me open a Tavern with her damn it
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Joined: Aug 2023
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I really honestly think that it would do a lot of good for our hearts to be at least soooomewhat, sliiightly prepared for 1. Nothing happening 2. A monkey paw twist 3. Getting more content and a full upgraded quest and such and such but it still ends in tragedy only, just more firmly and logically this time. While fully hoping for the best, of course, but you know. Hurts less to be knocked down if you know where you'll land. Or something like that. Also yeah I do think we need to remember that at the beginning of this thread parts of our complaints were "Why is it fade to black, we don't know what happened in Avernus or if they even GOT there in time!" and "Why does Wyll offering to go override a romanced Tav", both of which were technically addressed. I'm pretty sure someone was directly saying "I'd be fine just with just a cutscene of them emerging in Avernus ready to fight or something". So whatever we think of the result, it bears to remember that we (as a thread, not individually) did, indeed, ask for this Now we'll just have to see what else we've asked for down the line. EDIT: Shh dont give them those kinds of ideas! Lol just give me an option to fix her engine (or preferably replace it with a real heart) and let me open a Tavern with her damn it listen I agree wholeheartedly, but some self-preservation never hurt nobody in fandom land ^^"
Last edited by tarraxahum; 14/10/23 12:20 AM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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Then, as a way to say 'thank you', the only new thing would be the Gondians and Ironhands jointly, the best metalworking gnomes on the planet, have the knowhow to take Dammon's work to the next level and fix Karlach's heart permanently. So not creating any new game scenarios. Just adding a layer of reward on a very deeply threaded set of side quests Act 1 to Act 3 which at any point if the player messes up, become undoable. I'm not sure about the DND lore, if the local gnomes can do something like that, it seems to be more related to the Tieflings. Anyway, thanks to your reasoning on how it could be implemented, another thought occurred to me. A contract with Raphael. It would even have the amusing irony that to appease/get rid of the devil's Karlach engine you have to make a deal with the devil. And then just steal the deal from the House of Hope as in the case of the Hammer. Just seriously what kind of sense, interest, motivation should a player have to pay attention to Orpheus Hammer at all? Much less trying to get it through a deal with the devil..... That's pretty stupid, if you ask me. We only find out about this hammer at the beginning of Act 3 (if I'm not mistaken) and all we need it for is to free Orpheus (not counting Hope, but we may not find out about it at all if we don't go into the house, so that's another reason why there is no initial motivation), but why should we free Orpheus if everything is fine? We are protected from Absolute's influence, the larva gives us abilities, Mind Flayer wants to help us and doesn't want to harm or threaten us in any way (of course he acts in his own interests, but those interests are similar to ours). And if we've already met Ansur by then, and we find out who Mind Flayer really is, there's even less reason to kill him or oppose him in any way. The whole game we're given no doubts or warnings about our mind flayer, except at the beginning, and that's more like: "Oh my god I've got some kind of worm in my head I need to get it out of there right away", rather than being just a kick start to the whole plot of the game. But over time, as the game progresses, you realize that the larva is only useful as long as the Mind Flayer in the prism protects it from Absolute's influence, and you will have no desire to get rid of it to make this protection disappear. There's a lot more to write on this topic, but it won't be about Karlach directly, but about the fact that Daisy on Balduran was a stupid mistake, because Daisy would have been the very motivator to get rid of the maggot, to question the credibility of her and her abilities (as it was in EA). But what I'm getting at is that the player would be more motivated and willing to help Karlach, a character he's grown fond of and sympathetic to (f*ck, I just love her "oh hi Mark!" iykyk), than to get the Hammer he doesn't understand why he needs it, and for that he'd be willing to make a deal with the devil. Seriously, I just don't understand who would make a deal with the devil for the Hammer, unless it's for the sake of lae'zel's plot (which as a character I personally never liked to be honest) or just for the sake of interest in what will come out of it, because by that point it's clear that the main storyline can't change critically from that, so why not? It's just that for all my two careful playthroughs of the game, this very game personally did not give me a clear motivation and justification for getting rid of the maggot, but just the opposite. (actually for me it's very frustrating, I wish Daisy had stayed, it would have been much more interesting to fight with mental torment like Dark Urge than to just realize that the maggot is good, and the story as a whole would have looked more logical and coherent).
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