Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

So yes, justice for Karlach. The game gives solutions but no ways to suss them out or achieve them.

Good idea, no touching.

I think that would be a fair exchange, it would be consistent with the bittersweet endings they have lined up for her already. I would consider this to be a mostly ''good'' aligned ending. I don't think they want to modify the theme too much, so something like this could work.

She can live and run a tavern, she wouldn't be lonely in the same way she felt in Avernus (minus the touchy bits of loneliness). She can't touch anyone, like before her upgrades.

At least she can be around people she cares about and live a life on Faerun. Perhaps even make her a bit more powerful in exchange, adding some more bittergoodness.

Actually it would even make sense, you always have to pay for everything and give something back.

And damn guys, no offense to all of you here, I understand that you are very fanatical about this character and want as much content as possible with her and all that, I can understand it, I have a similar situation with Minthara, but damn that in this thread that in the thread related to Minthara people periodically go too far in their fantasies, for example, here they want to be able to open a tavern with Karlach, there they want Minthara can be recruited without the massacre of Tieflings (and similar proposals on both topics a lot, I understand). Specifically in my case, I just want Minthara to finally get her quest fixed and expanded, and that's it (which effectively means Origin status). It's just that the less I think of things, the less upset we'll be about the real state of affairs. In any case, I think something like this for Karlach and Minthara can be expected only in DE, not before, so now the main concern of developers is bugs and breakages

The problem I have with this idea is it still doesn't resolve the core problem of her character. If we look at this as a choice based RPG, where we are rewarded for our choices and our investment into characters, we should be given a decent resolution. If we don't fix her engine and bring her back to the point she was at before she met Gortash, her storyline is still unresolved and is still unsatisfying. Also it really wouldn't make sense in universe since the overheating was a result of her engine malfunctioning and could be fixed by simple shielding. I want a good ending, not a "not as bad as it could've been" ending.

Like I said few pages ago, the 'careful what you wish for' part. Because my god, I experienced that very recently with a certain game. And it wasn't fun.

Edit


Do you want our girl to suffer more? I mean her whole issue apart from her engine going haywire is her inability to touch people. She's touch starved, very much so. This i think will affect her mentality much more than before, knowing she will live but she won't be able to touch people. Again.

Nahhh, perish that thought.

She already has bittersweet/sad endings. One good ending is all she needs for. Much like the other companions.

I know what you mean, but tbh bittersweetness is kind of Cyberpunk's whole deal. This is DnD and god dammit if I can keep Gale's dumbass from going nuclear for doing something that was his own fault, I should be able to fix an engine.

Also that's a great point. My second largest problem with her (after robbing us of player agency) is that we have too many bittersweet endings for her, and adding just another variant of "Karlach's life still sucks" doesn't really rectify that. If there's going to be a tradeoff, it should be something that doesn't just cause her to want to return to Avernus again, because I bet good money if she romanced Tav she'd rather go to Avernus than not touch them.

The great thing about Cyberpunk is that even though each ending is tragic, they all say something unique and different about the value of a life and what it means to come to terms with death. And ultimately that message is left up to the player.

Karlachs ending is just "Bad things happen to good people lol"

There's no subtly or complexity. No deeper meaning or thought behind it. No payoff or emotional release. Just mindless trauma-porn.

Karlachs endings are the types you would need dozens of hours to build up to, not 3 side quests and then throwing your hands up and not trying any more.

Larian bit off WAY more than they could chew with her story and now she's written into a corner.

Oh, i meant tonedeaf in regards to the rest of karlach's character and what she has been saying to us all game long! it's super sudden, not supported by any prior dialogue ("i'd rather die than go back there") and just happens 'cause. of course the devnote isn't meant for us, i was not getting heated (heh) just merely taken aback by how abrupt and sudden the wording felt, a bit rushed? i don't know if i explained myself fully ahah

Ah, well, that whole choice feels inconsistent in regards to the lead up. In regards to abruptness, definitely. They added some stuff to prepare us more for the inevitable, but there's no build up to choosing the other option, only the refusal of it up until the end. If anything, however, "The attitude switch is so abrupt because she's putting on her mask you've never seen on her before" is as true-to-character as we can get in the current standing of things. (The current standing of things being the player very suddenly swaying her this way at the last second).


The great thing about Cyberpunk is also that by each tragic ending you can fully say with your chest that you DID, actually, try EVERYTHING and exhausted every option within your reach. Which, you know.


I sorta agree in terms of narrative tropes, but damn can I sell my soul to a devil instead ;w;

Someone did already point out that almost none of our companions get a perfect fairytail ending without a catch, there's always someone/something lost or something hurting or some danger coming or a battle to be fought (okay, almost always), so even if we get a whole new 'good' ending for our girl I think it'll hardly be a tavern and all that fluff. Not that we can't dream, of course.

(Touching thing is harsh tho. Generally-shortened-but-still-longer-than-five-minutes lifespan? Permanently weakened abilities? A pact to climb out off? Zariel's forces hunting her again, forever? A trade-off for someone else's life?..)

I like those tradeoffs much better. A good sacrifice (like with the other characters) should be something that is uncomfortable to give up, but still doable now that said character has a renewed sense of purpose and a support system to fall back on (Shadowheart and her parents, Astarion not being able to go outside). Taking away the first thing we fix for her would honestly just be cruel.

This is if Larian is absolute with maintaining the bittersweet theme, I feel this could be meeting in the middle.

I don't think they want a simple exchange when it comes to Karlach. There has to be a price.

I don't think that it would make any sense narratively to do something as cruel as take away the ability for her to touch anyone. There's no way she'd be unable to do that with a new heart.

However. That being said, one big trade-off that COULD work and be narratively alright is that she would be unable to rage and use soul coins for the remainder of the game. Raging and being a powerhouse has been her virtue for the decade that she's killed and battled for Zariel. She is excited to have been juiced up with the first upgrade and even moreso when we get soul coins.

Obviously with the engine gone, coins are of no use. So she can't be buffed for the final battles you wanna play out depending on where in Act 3 you are. As to not being able to rage, she could be forced to calm tf down as to not overdonit for the newly attached heart that yes, is magically healed in and all, but given how much power and force she's been able to unleash, that heart can never achieve.

That's the whole reason she got mutilated. To be more. More force. More power. More fire. Now if we take that away, left is a Karlach that would've grown up and been if she wasn't sold by Gortash. Does that make her less of a fearsome warrior? No. Not at all. That's always gunna be a part of her. But it's a bit like undergoing a big surgery that changes your life and you can't do 100% of what you used to before, as your body may not be able to handle that.

I think her being less powerful despite her level, unable to rage which is a big thing for barbarians and her in particular, and having to calm down from all the fighting adventures she thought she'd go on for the sake of calming down and settling a bit earlier in life (tavern, stories, brawling) would be a good deal. That way she pays a price like Astarion and Shadowheart, they can live full lives, but there's one thing that always is less than what it was. A price paid. But not a cruel one.

Thoughts?

Indeed, I understand. However, Larian may have intended to have Karlach be the token tragedy and are sticking to their decision.

They at the very least need to clean it up and explain away why it isn't possible to fix her engine, too many plot holes as people have mentioned, certainly sours the overall experience right towards the end.

This I think is also a good tradeoff, and is still suitably tragic since she LOVES fighting. The big problem I have with the no touching tradeoff is it doesn't really feel like a thematically appropriate price to pay.

If we look at Karlach's life as being divided into two halves (as foreshadowed in the dev notes) Karlach Cliffgate and Karlach Demonsbane, in the story we are progressively moving from one end of the spectrum to the other. Karlach Demonsbane was isolated, both emotionally and literally, and was unable to make emotional connections (represented in the story as her being literally unable to touch when you first meet her). The first part of her quest moves her the first step from Demonsbane to Cliffgate, still a rage filled killing machine, but one who can connect with others. This continuum finally reaches its decision point at the end:

Either she can go somewhere where she can live on and fight as much as she wants, with friends this time so it's tolerable for the long term (the Demonsbane side wins).

Or she can hang up her axe and start over, with a quiet life, one where she's still capable but nowhere near as powerful as she once was (the Cliffgate side wins).

The point is I feel that there's many more interesting directions to go such as a secret, hard to get questline; a choice between sparing Gortash or killing him; or choosing between the two contrasting sides of her personality than just vapid tragedy for its own sake.

Except you literally can save everyone. Except for her due to completely bullshit reasons, while being able to fix much worse conditions (aka Gale and literal nuke in his chest)

Yeah that's also what I kind of figured. She does want the quiet life (as evident by both the game and Sam's perfect "boring" ending vision), but being a powerhouse of a fighter, a weapon even, has been her life for 10 years now. Arguably more, seeing as she was a fighter before as well, but, you know, with the engine it's a whole other thing. Even in Faerun she falls back on that like a safety net - she's the muscle, she's going to win fights, she's going to square up with a hill giant, she's going to save and/or protect each and every member of your party who finds themselves in trouble. Take that away - it's a huge throw off balance. Especially if complications risk makes her even weaker than she could be had she grown up naturally, for a while. That's a loss of part of an identity (even if an unwanted one), and that's definitely a loss of control (which, feeling like she's in control is obviously important to her). It also leaves her vulnerable should Zariel continue the chase out of spite. It also leaves her less capable of helping her friends in the final fight, despite helping and protecting being her whole thing. It could hurt.

Time to find out who you are when you're not a weapon anymore, Karlach. Would very much fit in with the whole narrative on identity and power/loss of power.

Yeah... i get what some of you are saying but there really doesnt NEED to be a trade off to fix her engine... theres been many posts outlining just how easy her issue to fix is compared to other companions. This concept of *larian seems to want her to be the token tragedy* just doesnt sit right, giving again how this game has been advertised -player choice mattering- 17k endings- i am still in the camp that they rushed her out the gate and her story is just structurally incomplete.
And they SHOULD fix that by adding content that fixes her condition that allows for a happy ending in faerun.
Im worried if we start talking about comprimise larian make take the easy way out cause thats what were now suggesting.

Avernus/uppercity content or bust!
(Shoot for the stars land on the moon etc etc)

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about trade offs because she should stay a token tragedy or because I'm giving Larian an easy way out/a compromise, I'm talking about it because mostly every other character has a trade off or a catch to their good ending, so if she's ever brought to their level (with additional content, quest, locations, a new end to work towards, etc) - that's very likely going to be the level.

Expecting them to do a complete u-turn from the token tragedy to one of the characters with the most perfect no-drawbacks ending ever might be, well, a stretch (not to mention the implications for the other characters then, people will be rightfully mad). Although, by all means, shooting for the stars is always good, I'm all for it.

Sure, I can do with some 'tradeoff' as long as it's not anything that would affect her something fierce in the long run (i.e scary stuff such as not getting to touch anyone anymore because we've already been over this in the game)

Karlach reminds me of Odysseus in a sense, only difference is Odysseus, who's also a tragic hero, gets the reward of life in the end after being lost at sea for 10 years facing all kinds of challenges - mentally and physically.