Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

Except you literally can save everyone. Except for her due to completely bullshit reasons, while being able to fix much worse conditions (aka Gale and literal nuke in his chest)

Yeah that's also what I kind of figured. She does want the quiet life (as evident by both the game and Sam's perfect "boring" ending vision), but being a powerhouse of a fighter, a weapon even, has been her life for 10 years now. Arguably more, seeing as she was a fighter before as well, but, you know, with the engine it's a whole other thing. Even in Faerun she falls back on that like a safety net - she's the muscle, she's going to win fights, she's going to square up with a hill giant, she's going to save and/or protect each and every member of your party who finds themselves in trouble. Take that away - it's a huge throw off balance. Especially if complications risk makes her even weaker than she could be had she grown up naturally, for a while. That's a loss of part of an identity (even if an unwanted one), and that's definitely a loss of control (which, feeling like she's in control is obviously important to her). It also leaves her vulnerable should Zariel continue the chase out of spite. It also leaves her less capable of helping her friends in the final fight, despite helping and protecting being her whole thing. It could hurt.

Time to find out who you are when you're not a weapon anymore, Karlach. Would very much fit in with the whole narrative on identity and power/loss of power.

Yeah... i get what some of you are saying but there really doesnt NEED to be a trade off to fix her engine... theres been many posts outlining just how easy her issue to fix is compared to other companions. This concept of *larian seems to want her to be the token tragedy* just doesnt sit right, giving again how this game has been advertised -player choice mattering- 17k endings- i am still in the camp that they rushed her out the gate and her story is just structurally incomplete.
And they SHOULD fix that by adding content that fixes her condition that allows for a happy ending in faerun.
Im worried if we start talking about comprimise larian make take the easy way out cause thats what were now suggesting.

Avernus/uppercity content or bust!
(Shoot for the stars land on the moon etc etc)

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about trade offs because she should stay a token tragedy or because I'm giving Larian an easy way out/a compromise, I'm talking about it because mostly every other character has a trade off or a catch to their good ending, so if she's ever brought to their level (with additional content, quest, locations, a new end to work towards, etc) - that's very likely going to be the level.

Expecting them to do a complete u-turn from the token tragedy to one of the characters with the most perfect no-drawbacks ending ever might be, well, a stretch (not to mention the implications for the other characters then, people will be rightfully mad). Although, by all means, shooting for the stars is always good, I'm all for it.

Sure, I can do with some 'tradeoff' as long as it's not anything that would affect her something fierce in the long run (i.e scary stuff such as not getting to touch anyone anymore because we've already been over this in the game)

Karlach reminds me of Odysseus in a sense, only difference is Odysseus, who's also a tragic hero, gets the reward of life in the end after being lost at sea for 10 years facing all kinds of challenges - mentally and physically.

Don't look up what happens to Odysseus once he gets home...

Odysseus gets a happy ending LOL! Sure, he has to slaughter a bunch of men who have been relentlessly hitting on his wife, but he comes out on top! That is a very interesting comparison to Karlach, given the 10 years away from home commonality. Huh, I like that.

Isn’t Odysseus the tragic hero because he lost 10 years of his life away from home at sea? Once he’s home, hasn’t the tragedy happened already? That’s the weird thing about Karlach. Her whole life has been a tragedy. Then she gets home and it’s just more tragedy. Although I can’t say she’s unique among the Baldurs Gate companions in that sense. The more I play it, the more I realize just how depressing a game it is.

But I will say, there is a difference between Karlach and the other companions along the lines of one theme. It’s a theme that lingers in my mind from DOS2. No major spoilers. But you’ve got that lizard lady in Ryker’s graveyard who says that Ryker can “take the you from you.” And like with Lohse in DOS2, she’s got a malicious visitor in her head who is taking the “her from her,” and Sebille had a master who enslaved her and took the “her from her” as well. Larian loves this kind of theme. Your selfhood and independence, your freedom, versus forces that are controlling you, and the catharsis that comes about when you’re able to break free.

We saw that in DOS2. We see that quite clearly in Baldurs Gate 3, no spoilers, but I’m thinking particularly of Shadowheart’s and Lae’zel’s storylines. There are forces that are trying to take the “them from them,” their selfhood from them. And, depending on player choice, they either can get that selfhood back or no, same as in DOS2.

But the thing about Karlach that makes her ending different, is that for 10 years she had the “her taken from her,” right, in Avernus. She couldn’t be truly herself in any way, because it was too dangerous. Then she comes home and she’s able to spend this very brief period coming back to herself and remembering who she really is and living the life she wants to live, to some degree, at least compared to Avernus. But at the end of the day, as we all know, her selfhood, her “her,” is taken from her regardless, whether through death, whether through losing her self again in Avernus. And that’s just in such contrast to other origin characters who do have the opportunity to reclaim their identities and their lives.

And I think that’s one of the things that makes Karlach’s endings so bitter. You don’t have that nice arc like you get in DOS2, where you have the cathartic breaking free and ability to make a fresh start in your life. Yeah so it’s not cathartic, it just sucks. You don’t have a choice, like you do with so many of Larian’s characters, as to whether she breaks free from these forces that have taken the “her from her” or succumbs to them. Back in comparison to Odysseus again, he does come home and reclaim his rightful place in his society! So he’s a tragic hero but, my goodness, that doesn’t have to mean that his entire life is a tragedy.

However not every story needs, or should have the wines and roses happy endings.

Karlach going back to Avernus with Wyll and Tav seems actually happy to be there. The cigar scene to me is awesome. She can stay in the Realms but would have to accept being a Mind Flayer. While this might not be the life she desires it is a choice to live and then of course she can choose death.

I get that everyone wants every ending to be all smiles and giggles but the ending for Karlach, to me is not nearly as bad as people are making it. She has the chance to have two dear companions adventure with her and help her enjoy sweet revenge on those that hurt her. That seems a pretty good way to go forward in life to me.

And once more and again. We only want the good ending which was obviously removed from the game and the whole act3 tells you, that the solution is available.

My brother the fact your saying we need *every* ending to *all smiles and giggles* tells me your either not reading this thread or just ignoring whats been said and what were asking for. Giving karlach and actual *good* ending option (that doesnt force her back into the place she has spent 10 years in torture and trauma with or without friends)
Doesnt in anyway i repeat IN ANYWAY take away from the endings she has currently.
We are at most* hoping for her story to ne beefed up with added content cause hers is woefully lacking. And at BARE MINIUM allow us to use the very clear options presented in the game but denied to us due to lack of upper city/ time restraints- to actually fix her. Its great you enjoy her story and its conclusion but for the rest of us were hoping that larian fixes this VERY VALID critque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion

For the love of God stop repeating this.

It really does sometimes feel like we've entered a strange cycle where we have a few pages of Karlach ideas/news and then someone comes in and says something along the lines of "maybe her ending is supposed to be tragic, have you considered that?"

Yes, we have considered that. I frankly don't care what her ending is supposed to be, I don't like it. Hence the 89 pages of complaining.

Odysseus fought tooth and nail to get back to his home - in Karlach's case is freedom and the ability to live, BUT. She doesn't even get to fight tooth and nail for the bad luck she got. She just.... idk, she often gives me whiplash. One moment she wants to live, another moment she gets into depression mode for a second then back to wanting to know if there's anything that can fix her heart or heck - upgrade it. It's always back and forth with her. So inconsistent.

The tragedy of Odysseus starts the moment the Trojan war ends and sails back to his home and it ends when he kills all the suitors and makes his wife remember who he is. And all that... by divine intervention Athena was the goddess that kept him sane throughout his adventure and even helped him take revenge on the suitors. In Karlach's case, her 'Athena' should be the protagonist. This is exactly why Odysseus' adventure is so rewarding in the end and why a lot of people are still infatuated by his story with how victorious he became and lived well until death took him.

Karlach's revenge on Gortash felt so empty and after her breakdown, it just gives you the feeling of being useless. We did literally nothing for her.

Besides, didn't some character from DOS2 got bad endings too until Larian gave a good ending? Was it Fane? Correct me if i'm wrong but I fairly remember people mentioning him or Beast.

If someone says he or she liked Karlach endings where she dies or becomes squidward or goes back to prison, good for you! Those endings will remain! Most of us didn't because it was glorifying cruelty for no reason. She didn't deserve those endings, period.

Yeah im really confused by this trend honestly. What were suggesting doesnt take away from anyones enjoyment of the current game...if anything if our feedback is taken seriously and implemented it at the very least ADDS content for the character for those ppl to enjoy and then they can still send our girl off to hell or give her tentacles and be happy.

But it gives the SO MANY PPL who are disappointed and frustrated with the ending an option that is narratively pleasing and happy. Like... everybody wins here? So not sure why they keep trying to knock us down *shrug*

Can I just. Respectfully. If a bit tiredly.

Here's an example of actual dialogue flow to go with the idea I shared regarding the Gondians and Ironhands:

Dialogue Flow Page 1

Dialogue Flow Page 2

Dialogue Flow Page 3

Yeah, I'm kinda done. There's no point. It was a good run with Larian, from Divinity to Dragon Commander to Original Sin 2, excellent games all round. But if Karlach story stays as it is, "poignant and what she deserves", I'm making my own bittersweet and poignant decision to be done with Larian's games. And no, it's not an ultimatum or temper tantrum, it's my right as a customer. If you like the game, more power to you. I am glad you do.

But I don't need to have sad experiences during my escape into fantasy worlds, I have enough of them in my real life. I went into BG3 expecting to have my actions matter, my choices to have meaning, as per Larian's promise, but got railroaded instead.

Shame, but as things stand, this is it with me and Larian. it does seem that not every story has a happy ending.

Give it time. Im currently on a bg3 hiatus aswell cause i cant complete the game with ksrlaches endings as they are. But im willing to wait to see what they do with the feedback into the new year. If a year goes by without a DE or GOTY announcment then yeah im probably in the same boat. Which is really unfortunate cause otherwise the game was fantastic....just that last 5% is to glaring for me

Bro we get it, youre happy that an enslaved girl gets her freedom taken away once more and is basically in the grasp of her enslaver again. The fact you still dont even know that 3x Level 12 have no chance against Zariel is actually pretty funny, considering you're talking as if you have an ounce of a clue on wtf is going on in Faérun.

You probs played the game with your eyes closed

My mans I feel you but I really think it's going to be fine. The game came out roughly 70 days ago, that's like one Hoi4 focus, and they've already given us so much. So far they've dealt with all of the easy stuff, now they're moving on to the more complicated stuff. It's not just Karlach's ending too, we also likely get to look forward to:

-Epilogue Scenes
-More Wyll and Minthara content
-Whatever the hell is going on with Halsin
-Better Durge endings

Larian has already showed that they listen, and they've accomplished so much in so little time, so we really just need to be patient. I know we're supposed to keep our expectations low blah blah blah, but I genuinely think it's going to be fine sooner than you think.