Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

Don't look up what happens to Odysseus once he gets home...

Odysseus gets a happy ending LOL! Sure, he has to slaughter a bunch of men who have been relentlessly hitting on his wife, but he comes out on top! That is a very interesting comparison to Karlach, given the 10 years away from home commonality. Huh, I like that.

Isn’t Odysseus the tragic hero because he lost 10 years of his life away from home at sea? Once he’s home, hasn’t the tragedy happened already? That’s the weird thing about Karlach. Her whole life has been a tragedy. Then she gets home and it’s just more tragedy. Although I can’t say she’s unique among the Baldurs Gate companions in that sense. The more I play it, the more I realize just how depressing a game it is.

But I will say, there is a difference between Karlach and the other companions along the lines of one theme. It’s a theme that lingers in my mind from DOS2. No major spoilers. But you’ve got that lizard lady in Ryker’s graveyard who says that Ryker can “take the you from you.” And like with Lohse in DOS2, she’s got a malicious visitor in her head who is taking the “her from her,” and Sebille had a master who enslaved her and took the “her from her” as well. Larian loves this kind of theme. Your selfhood and independence, your freedom, versus forces that are controlling you, and the catharsis that comes about when you’re able to break free.

We saw that in DOS2. We see that quite clearly in Baldurs Gate 3, no spoilers, but I’m thinking particularly of Shadowheart’s and Lae’zel’s storylines. There are forces that are trying to take the “them from them,” their selfhood from them. And, depending on player choice, they either can get that selfhood back or no, same as in DOS2.

But the thing about Karlach that makes her ending different, is that for 10 years she had the “her taken from her,” right, in Avernus. She couldn’t be truly herself in any way, because it was too dangerous. Then she comes home and she’s able to spend this very brief period coming back to herself and remembering who she really is and living the life she wants to live, to some degree, at least compared to Avernus. But at the end of the day, as we all know, her selfhood, her “her,” is taken from her regardless, whether through death, whether through losing her self again in Avernus. And that’s just in such contrast to other origin characters who do have the opportunity to reclaim their identities and their lives.

And I think that’s one of the things that makes Karlach’s endings so bitter. You don’t have that nice arc like you get in DOS2, where you have the cathartic breaking free and ability to make a fresh start in your life. Yeah so it’s not cathartic, it just sucks. You don’t have a choice, like you do with so many of Larian’s characters, as to whether she breaks free from these forces that have taken the “her from her” or succumbs to them. Back in comparison to Odysseus again, he does come home and reclaim his rightful place in his society! So he’s a tragic hero but, my goodness, that doesn’t have to mean that his entire life is a tragedy.

However not every story needs, or should have the wines and roses happy endings.

Karlach going back to Avernus with Wyll and Tav seems actually happy to be there. The cigar scene to me is awesome. She can stay in the Realms but would have to accept being a Mind Flayer. While this might not be the life she desires it is a choice to live and then of course she can choose death.

I get that everyone wants every ending to be all smiles and giggles but the ending for Karlach, to me is not nearly as bad as people are making it. She has the chance to have two dear companions adventure with her and help her enjoy sweet revenge on those that hurt her. That seems a pretty good way to go forward in life to me.

And once more and again. We only want the good ending which was obviously removed from the game and the whole act3 tells you, that the solution is available.

My brother the fact your saying we need *every* ending to *all smiles and giggles* tells me your either not reading this thread or just ignoring whats been said and what were asking for. Giving karlach and actual *good* ending option (that doesnt force her back into the place she has spent 10 years in torture and trauma with or without friends)
Doesnt in anyway i repeat IN ANYWAY take away from the endings she has currently.
We are at most* hoping for her story to ne beefed up with added content cause hers is woefully lacking. And at BARE MINIUM allow us to use the very clear options presented in the game but denied to us due to lack of upper city/ time restraints- to actually fix her. Its great you enjoy her story and its conclusion but for the rest of us were hoping that larian fixes this VERY VALID critque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion

For the love of God stop repeating this.

It really does sometimes feel like we've entered a strange cycle where we have a few pages of Karlach ideas/news and then someone comes in and says something along the lines of "maybe her ending is supposed to be tragic, have you considered that?"

Yes, we have considered that. I frankly don't care what her ending is supposed to be, I don't like it. Hence the 89 pages of complaining.

Odysseus fought tooth and nail to get back to his home - in Karlach's case is freedom and the ability to live, BUT. She doesn't even get to fight tooth and nail for the bad luck she got. She just.... idk, she often gives me whiplash. One moment she wants to live, another moment she gets into depression mode for a second then back to wanting to know if there's anything that can fix her heart or heck - upgrade it. It's always back and forth with her. So inconsistent.

The tragedy of Odysseus starts the moment the Trojan war ends and sails back to his home and it ends when he kills all the suitors and makes his wife remember who he is. And all that... by divine intervention Athena was the goddess that kept him sane throughout his adventure and even helped him take revenge on the suitors. In Karlach's case, her 'Athena' should be the protagonist. This is exactly why Odysseus' adventure is so rewarding in the end and why a lot of people are still infatuated by his story with how victorious he became and lived well until death took him.

Karlach's revenge on Gortash felt so empty and after her breakdown, it just gives you the feeling of being useless. We did literally nothing for her.

Besides, didn't some character from DOS2 got bad endings too until Larian gave a good ending? Was it Fane? Correct me if i'm wrong but I fairly remember people mentioning him or Beast.

If someone says he or she liked Karlach endings where she dies or becomes squidward or goes back to prison, good for you! Those endings will remain! Most of us didn't because it was glorifying cruelty for no reason. She didn't deserve those endings, period.

Yeah im really confused by this trend honestly. What were suggesting doesnt take away from anyones enjoyment of the current game...if anything if our feedback is taken seriously and implemented it at the very least ADDS content for the character for those ppl to enjoy and then they can still send our girl off to hell or give her tentacles and be happy.

But it gives the SO MANY PPL who are disappointed and frustrated with the ending an option that is narratively pleasing and happy. Like... everybody wins here? So not sure why they keep trying to knock us down *shrug*

Can I just. Respectfully. If a bit tiredly.

Here's an example of actual dialogue flow to go with the idea I shared regarding the Gondians and Ironhands:

Dialogue Flow Page 1

Dialogue Flow Page 2

Dialogue Flow Page 3

Yeah, I'm kinda done. There's no point. It was a good run with Larian, from Divinity to Dragon Commander to Original Sin 2, excellent games all round. But if Karlach story stays as it is, "poignant and what she deserves", I'm making my own bittersweet and poignant decision to be done with Larian's games. And no, it's not an ultimatum or temper tantrum, it's my right as a customer. If you like the game, more power to you. I am glad you do.

But I don't need to have sad experiences during my escape into fantasy worlds, I have enough of them in my real life. I went into BG3 expecting to have my actions matter, my choices to have meaning, as per Larian's promise, but got railroaded instead.

Shame, but as things stand, this is it with me and Larian. it does seem that not every story has a happy ending.

Give it time. Im currently on a bg3 hiatus aswell cause i cant complete the game with ksrlaches endings as they are. But im willing to wait to see what they do with the feedback into the new year. If a year goes by without a DE or GOTY announcment then yeah im probably in the same boat. Which is really unfortunate cause otherwise the game was fantastic....just that last 5% is to glaring for me

Bro we get it, youre happy that an enslaved girl gets her freedom taken away once more and is basically in the grasp of her enslaver again. The fact you still dont even know that 3x Level 12 have no chance against Zariel is actually pretty funny, considering you're talking as if you have an ounce of a clue on wtf is going on in Faérun.

You probs played the game with your eyes closed

My mans I feel you but I really think it's going to be fine. The game came out roughly 70 days ago, that's like one Hoi4 focus, and they've already given us so much. So far they've dealt with all of the easy stuff, now they're moving on to the more complicated stuff. It's not just Karlach's ending too, we also likely get to look forward to:

-Epilogue Scenes
-More Wyll and Minthara content
-Whatever the hell is going on with Halsin
-Better Durge endings

Larian has already showed that they listen, and they've accomplished so much in so little time, so we really just need to be patient. I know we're supposed to keep our expectations low blah blah blah, but I genuinely think it's going to be fine sooner than you think.

It's still a lil bit early, i'm gonna just wait and see what they gonna do. But very understandable if you are done with it, i loved your posts when I was in lurking mode and read the whole thread. You will be missed if you leave.

I've been debating wether or not to post anything - since essentially the main points have been reiterated over and over already, and I don't have anything new to add.

However, that modpost makes me want to chime in with my own five cents:

This is not about the need for fairytale endings and everything being "all smiles and giggles".
It's one thing to not have a truly happy ending for her - but if I as a player feel like I am forced into incompetence and inaction, it simply leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. Why present us with all the loose ends and possibilities, hint at options and solutions, when you do not allow us to follow up on even a single of those leads?
The fact that I cannot explore any of those options, not even try to properly struggle and fail, simply make it seem like Tav and the companions do not care. Which I highly doubt is the intention - especially looking at the dialogue we get regarding her storyline. But as it stands, it just feels like they gave up before even trying.

Her content currently feels pretty barebones compared to the other companions, and the way the storyline gets concluded is very dissatifying. Let me at the very least actually try to fight for her happiness before concluding her story like this.

It seems like you want to make it sound like all of us here are constantly whining because our favourite character doesn't have an ending where everything is resolved with no downsides, but this isn't the case at all. These 89 pages of discussion were never, are not, and will never be about "Why can't we go to disneyland instead of avernus with Karlach?", they always were about the lack of cohesion between gameplay elements presented to the player and the questlog and narrative themselves. There's not a single ending in the game that is all "smiles and giggles", every single narrative thread ends on a bittersweet note.

To gain something, you must sacrifice something else.

That's what we can personally do for every single origin, should we choose to nudge them in that direction, our choices and actions matter.
Your actions can influence the hand of fate in a pretty significant way (for some more, for others less) in every origin story.

Ça va sans dire, the vast majority of us here are not whining for an ending where everything is gained and nothing is lost (Although if there was a character deserving of such an ending, it would be Karlach.)

We are advocating for the same exact thing every other origin has: Player agency. We want Karlach questlog to look like a questlog. We would like if our choices mattered in the same way that they matter for every other origin. If Karlach had exploded/turned into a mind flayer/went back to avernus/repaired her engine (at some cost) at the end of a varied and challenging questlog with significant crossroads where your decision shaped the fate of the character, i pretty much guarantee that this thread would simply not exist. Not in this capacity anyway, have you seen the amount of views and replies?

Any ending can be a fitting ending, if done properly. We do not believe this is the case. There are characters with entire areas and narrative thread present solely to solidify their place in the world and give us the background necessary to take our own decisions in shaping their fate to come. Karlach has a fetch quest.

And you know what? Fetch quests can be interesting too, when there's something at stake. If we ignore Karlach's log completely, it doesn't matter in the slightest. Every other character has consequences for doing so. We have the illusion of having progressed something. If you ignore gale he outright leaves (just to bring up an example). It's simply not satisfying when we consider how the narrative is entangled with gameplay in this game, we have reactivity everywhere else but not with Karlach, where it seems that it should matter a lot (Narrative-wise, it would make sense to have her die at the beginning of act 2/3 if you are actively ignoring her).

It seems to me that you are also quick to dismiss the elements that are present in game that all hint at an engine-fix being possible, or at least something close to it. It's no surprise that players are vocal about Karlach, this isn't a simple case of falling in love with a character doomed by the narrative, it is, as i said multiple times in prior posts, a classic Chekhov's gun situation, one that was expected by every player (experienced or not) to be a classic Occam's razor: We have the iron, we have the gondians, we have the forge, "LET'S DO THIS THING!". The reason this is brought up time and time again by people is not because we all came up with the same headcanon, it's because the game itself NUDGES us in that direction, in a pretty blatant way, straight up pointing us towards the steel foundry. I am keen on describing it as a Chekhov's gun situation for that very reason. If it was done in any other media it would've been even more apparent, this doesn't get a pass in a videogame, if anything it's accentuated even more by the added power of player agency to go and seek out stuff.

It's your prerogative to ignore the narrative and gameplay shortcomings and still appreciate the current Karlach's endings as if we were judging them in a vacuum, i'm not trying to take that away from you.
But we are not in a vacuum. these aren't a series of short stories published on their own. these are narrative threads that should all come together naturally in the braid that we call baldur's gate 3, the game they are a part of. A game built on an overarching narrative with many subplots that we are able to influence (MOST of them i guess).


In conclusion, no, we do not want every ending to be good and problem-free. We want to fight tooth and nail, we want to try everything in our arsenal, we want to face the problem head-on.


If we make it? Fuck yeah.

if we fail? Then so be it.

But at least we will not feel our stomachs churn when we read "We did everything we could for Karlach". Because this time around it's gonna be true.

I wish i was gifted with synthesis like you are, Raven. Well said.

@All

This is a genuine question to everyone in the thread here (not a loaded one). Do you feel that Larian cares about our concerns on this matter (or any matter like this)? I just realized going through these threads there doesn't appear to be a lick of acknowledgement from Swen and his team about this stuff.