Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Shadowheart Romance and the Hidden Fetish - (Spoilers inside)

I haven't really read that thread.

But hypothetically. If you solo romance Halsin and go to the twins SH doesn't want to join? Do I have that right?

That makes sense and even seems like good writing to me.

SH is happy to explore in the context of the relationship but isn't interested in seeking out sex on her own. Once she has a secure base, once she feels love, she feels free to explore other feelings. Just like a dungeon delve - first secure a base camp and then go looking for adventure.

You snide tone isn't helping the discussion. Drop it.

One important point in favor "SH is supposed to be percieved only as mono at least in Acts 1-2"

When players actually initiate poly/open relationship with Halsin and SH they have to have a conversation with Shadowheart that can be seen in this video (timestamp 1:57)


She says it's "Bold of you to ask" in responce to player suggesting it. I am no expert, but isn't it the type of conversation that is expected for open/poly people? What is so bold about it?

A) There is clear implication somewhere in Acts 1-2 that Shadowheart is not mono.
B) It is bold to ask her about including someone else.

To me it seems that statements A and B can't be true at the same time.

"Bold" comes up in romance more than once. It's one her phrases - she both likes boldness and it violates her Sharran principles. "I always had a weakness forthe confident ones . . ."

From memory:

SH What should we toast to?

Tav: to us

SH: Bold. What does "us" mean I wonder? heh. I guess we'll find out.


Many poly people tried to be mono at one time - the initial conversation does take a certain level of boldness.

And yet you say she was comfortable having casual sex with her fellow sharrans? It was never explicitly stated she was in love with someone while there. So who was it that gave her a "secure base" to explore casual sex there?

I feel like the same things are just being re-hashed and dwelled for pages and pages.

What it all comes down to is that there is an option within the game to play out your relationship with Shadowheart as an open relationship. There are three instances where this can be opened up. One is through flirting with Halsin and then asking Shadowheart if she is ok with you having a fling with Halsin. The second one is by proposing to share her with the drow twins (and Halsin if he is present) and the third is by sleeping with Mizora (though I am not sure that one really establishes that you now have an open relationship, just that she won't throw your sorry ass out the door this time). Unfortunately the option to open up my relationship with her and other characters does not exist, but we can't always have everything. None of these options are forced upon you, though there are some uncomfortable and problematic situations with Halsin, but they are more related to his character than Shadowheart. And the dialogue tree in the drow scene sometimes seems to miss a step where Tav needs to propose this first, but that only leads as far as to Shadowheart saying that she is comfortable sharing if they are, and you can establish that you aren't.

I understand how this raises ideas and thoughts around her character, but I wouldn't overthink it. The writing that follows these paths and choices is just adapted and fitted to work within those "universes". For the drow scene to work it is simply necessary to provide Shadowheart with some enthusiasm for it. I don't think there is some deep character arc involved.

As much as you can find this inconsistent with the character, that's just what it is, something you feel plays out wrong in your story. Then just re-load and change your story. I can find it inconsistent that if I support Shadowheart towards the Dark Justiciar path I will automatically raise her approval so high that she will instead choose to abandon Shar and refuse to kill Nightsong if leave the choice up to her. That's inconsistent with how I've been playing the story, why would she do that if I've been actively supporting her to stay loyal to Shar and her desire to become a dark justiciar? Well, fortunately I can re-load and just intervene with a different choice in the dialogue and make her follow my intented story.

Likewise if I've been playing the story as an exclusive relationship with Shadowheart, I find my story inconsistent if all of a sudden she wants an open relationship. Again the game kindly gives me the option to keep my story going the way I want to by allowing me to choose other options and paths (aside from the unwelcome intrusion of a certain sexcreep that has issues with consent and boundaries). My story where Tav was in an exclusive lesbian relationship with Shadowheart (where I was a bit fortunate to make certain choices that lead to certain creepy men not trying to weasel their way in not being around) was very touching and appealing. But I don't find my story ruined because some other player decided to play a pansexual Tav that had an open relationship with Shadowheart.

Spending page after page just reiterating your thoughts around this and jumping down the throat on anyone who comes in and gives another opinion and perspective, does not seem productive or worth anyone's time really.

Halsin's writing and how he behaves in an unacceptable and very problematic way is a discussion that I think pertains more to him than Shadowheart, though she has a minor part in it with how the drow scene is scripted.

Only makes sense... If you ignore things she said that make her more monogamous than anything (which honestly seems like you have, read my post in page 45 for more detail). If they wanted to include a poly relationship in the game, it shouldn't have been with Shadowheart and instead they should have made a character that's explicit about it with no room for misinterpretation.

Replay the conversation From her tone it's not clear she enjoyed those encounters or would have engaged in them without Viconia's encouragement.

So it could be character development - she's gone from someone who has casual sex to someone who is in a loving relationship with a supportive tav. sex workers and horny druids are just the frosting on the cake.

can you post it here? On page 45 of the Halsin thread I see something from portionbeans which seems to be based on a misunderstanding of poly relations but I don't see your post.

So her excuse for being okay with Tav cheating on her is entirely dependent on encounters she never enjoyed or wanted to begin with? You're not really doing anything for your case here.

If she didn't like or want the casual sex and was prohibited from having an actual relationship, it only makes more sense she would choose monogamy with Tav.

Sorry, I wrote the wrong number. It's page 44.
But here's the whole thing:

Everyone is bringing up that Shadowheart is fine with Tav cheating on her with Mizora and that is one of her ooc moments. I don't know about you guys, but to me that scene looked like she's very much not fine at all about it. I think you pretty much ignored the dialogue she has said: "In truth, I don't think I'd want to be your spare lover. I'd always want more of you than you'd have to spare. Better perhaps to bow out with dignity." The second sentence is the most telling that she wants you to herself, and is not okay with an open relationship or you being poly. But with Halsin for some reason that's all forgotten about.

No, if they wanted to make a poly character and allow you to be in a poly relationship with them, they shouldn't have done it with Shadowheart. In fact, they should have made a companion (besides Halsin) specifically for this kind of thing that's explicit about it so there wouldn't be any confusion or people feeling burned by it.

Edit: This is a reply to Rabbit

Truth be told I'm not making a 'case'. My position is indisputable. SH dates more than one person at a time - you can like that or not but it just IS. I'm just getting at the why of it.

Tav cheated, she let her know that it would have been okay if she had just asked. Which is a pretty generous response and, yes, this is a *very* poly conversation. Cheating can happen in a poly relationship - poly is not free pass.

Why would she engage in casual sex if she doesn't want or enjoy it though? Why would she encourage Tav to do it either if she doesn't consider it to be a good experience, but merely something she was "trained" for?

She also implies in this convo that she never wanted a swan. Yet in another conversation, while breaking up with you over Karlach, if Tav says they aren't a swan and they want to be with them both, Shadowheart rejects you. So which is it? Does she want a swan or not? Because two different conversations contradict one another. SH has even shown attraction to Karlach, so why not join a poly relationship then?

And where does SH date more than one person at a time? Who else does she date?

Ehhh also makes a solid point: "I would always want more of you than you'd have to spare" is a done deal. This right here is the icing on the cake.

My guess? Timing matters. The swan conversation come right after SH decides she wants a relationship. The cheating happens some time later. I've only seen it on youtube but it possible that Tav helped her rescue her parents and got the Viconia off her trail.

The relation is stronger at the cheating point. The swan line is a bit cringe but it seems an insightful exchange - seeing Tav cheat on her with a devil is likely to push SH back towards Shar and so memories of life the cloister return. If Tav is smart she will try and heal the wound the cheating inflicted.

SH is being generous but she's feeling hurt. Tav should have asked and should have chosen a different partner.

edit: obvs she flirts with and sleeps with Halsin. That's what we're discussing, right?

papercut was in the conversation before you made your account, making basically the same point as now. The dialogue choices pending on the player allow reading the character either way. It's up to the player to determine that. Not every player is going to agree with you, and that's okay. Imposing an opinion about a contextual reading on other players, or demanding that the ability to read the character that way by having the existing choices and interactions that support the read removed from those players for the sake of what amounts to a minor inconvenience due to a personally perceived inconsistency (which I will continue saying as not every player sees it as inconsistent, like myself) about choices that you sound like you'll never personally make is kinda just unnecessary. Cuz as I said, you can absolutely read her the way you're saying... if you don't pursue anything non-monogamous. And the ability to pursue that does absolutely currently exist and can be established as part of the relationship for a Tav that goes that route.

Sure it'd be nice to have even more characters with even more variety to them but as the game is it would've just been (and would still be) better to develop the concept more and not pin the lion's share of it on one redundant druid with some really toxic behavior. For all we know Shadowheart had things like the Mizora reaction and drow twins reactivity before Halsin was upgraded to be a companion, and if so therefor may always have been intended to at least be comfortable opening the relationship if a player pursues that. We have no way of knowing but given the dissonance between her interactions without Halsin compared to with Halsin I lean in the direction that Halsin was tacked onto something that already existed. But whether it exists or not should not affect how you read the character if you're not going to ever make those choices. The choices exist for the people that will make them. The writing could have been better, certainly. But I think we all just enjoy what IS there so much that we want perfection even when it isn't reasonable to expect it.

Speaking of misinterpreting, I personally didn't see anyone imply Shadowheart is okay with Tav cheating with Mizora because she is very clearly scolding you for it. She's being very forgiving of it, but certainly did not appreciate it being done behind her back. That's not being okay with it. But the scene does then serve to develop her character further based on the choice of having done it while in a Shadowheart romance. Whether a player accepts that development is again entirely personal to the individual who makes the choice leading to it and the people who most want these interactions to be gone were never going to make those choices to begin with anyway (unless they're lying on the internet), so their Shadowhearts remain entirely unaffected by them regardless, meaning there's not much of a compelling reason to damage the experience for the players that do make those choices.

Halsin is the exception to all this specifically because if he's in the party his behavior and reactivity to him circumvents all that, which is why Halsin (and reactivity to him) is the one in need of adjusting.

No one, who isn't monogamous, would say "I would always want more of you than you'd have to spare." And there's nothing in all of act 1 or 2 to engage in anything other than monogamy with her because she always shuts the idea down.

This is how her writing is established, to do a 180 so suddenly in act 3 is bad writing period. We all know the only reason they made SH into it is because she's a hot half elf and they needed to add some porn. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking it's anything more than that lol

The key line around everything really is: "I am comfortable sharing, if you are."

That really establishes and allows for so much.

Is she happy to stay in a committed exclusive relationship with Tav if that is what Tav wants? Yes

Is she initiating and pushing for them to have other partners? No, but if Tav wants it she is ok with it.

Is she expressing anything to suggest she would cheat on Tav or do anything behind their back? No.

Does she assume that her relationship with Tav is, or should be, an open or poly relationship. No, not until Tav initiates things and communicates that they want this.

I can't really find anything questionable, dishonest or inconsiderate in her behaviour or approach here. Apart from when she expresses disapproval around a sexual encounter that Tav isn't comfortable with. She should respect Tav's feelings there, regardless of the circumstances around it. We shouldn't show disappointment towards our partners around their sexual boundaries and comfort.

I don’t think I’ve said it for a while, so here’s your regular reminder that it’s okay to agree to disagree. It’s clear that no amount of discussion here is going to result in everyone thinking the same thing about this element of Shadowheart’s romance, and that’s fine.

But please recognise when you have made your point and don’t just keep reiterating it again and again, just because others don’t agree, and please respect others’ rights to hold and express views other than your own.

But her saying that after she has already stated "I would always want more of you than you'd have to spare" is contradictory. First she says she doesn't want to share, then she conveniently is okay with it when it comes to Halsin, etc. It's shitty writing, through and through.

Red Queen, I'm not sure if ppl are seeing my posts or something. I feel I have to reiterate because it's like mine are ignored and not taken into consideration often. But yes, we can agree to disagree in here.

I've already responded to this but

1. She didn't rule out sharing in the wine conversation. Just not tonight. And that was written almost 3 years in patch 1

2. Yes, a poly person who only wanted to be the primary partner would say that.

Could the writing of those be improved? Sure. But I would want it go in a very different direction than you seem to want it to go.

You are right that sex workers bit was porn. But SH being poly? I always expected that.

She doesn't want to simply share wine and convo with the others because she wants Tav to herself. With the others it would simply be only wine/convo, nothing romantic like it is with Tav alone. She didn't want it to be a group hangout.

A primary partner would still have to be shared. She says she would always want more than you'd have to spare, which means she wants your full attention.