Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Why capped at level 12?

Why are you so aggressive?

Yes, let’s take it down a bit and keep it civil.

its your imagination

I’m afraid you’re definitely coming across as heated, DYNIA. Let’s turn the dial down a little, and keep it constructive.

This right here, however I would love it more if Draconic Bloodline Sorcerers got their Dragon Wings, maybe make it so that they can get it a bit earlier, like at a lower level than 14 perhaps.

im not agresive I use "curses" as slag language in my country, you rly don't want to see my bipolar rage, the real rage

You haven't used a curse yet so the point holds no weight. You have however chosen to act in a certain tone and way. Let me assure you that if it doesn't change from here on forth or if you try anything funny, I will just remove you from the forum permanently. I'm not as patient as Red Queen has been with you. I recommend following her advice.

This very question has asked quite a bit...

BG3 makes use of the DnD 5e rule set and once you past level 12 some of the spells become over powered and would be very difficult to implement. This is a limitation of doing a CRPG as there is no live DM to make judgement calls that would help balance these spells. As such going to higher levels create a scenario where they either have to lock down a lot of spells or develop the single most sophisticated AI in the history of computer gaming.

Also as with traditional ARPG design the game has a specific end point, the developers worked around this at level 12 based on the issues mentioned with the 5e rule set.

I understand your argument DYNIA that this is a CRPG and not DnD Table Top. However the CRPG has been always designed to be based on the Table Top experience and so make use of a variant of those rules and thus must work within those limitations.

Exactly the level 9 spell Wish is OP even by Table Top, if the DM aloows it you could use wish to become a God if you want it, however other things the spell can do without DM intervention is

Cast any 8th level spells or lower without any requirements like components,

Create a non magic item that no larger than 300 ft in any direction that values to 25,000 GP,

Allow 20 creatures you can see to regain all hitpoints and remove any status effects,

Grant up to 10 creatures resistance to a damage type you can choose,

Grant up to 10 creatures you can see immunity to a single spell or other magical effects up to 8 hours,

You can undo a single recent event by forcing a reroll, (Basically Save Scumming).

Most of these option while OP are still pretty lame compared to what the DM could allow this Spell to do.

Well I think that at lvl 12 you're in the city and under the influence of the netherstones and the brain. You could make a storyline where the netherese magic that lingers in this place limits the powe of the normal weave. So in that perspective, we could advance in level and limit the power of high level weave spells.

I DM'd the Q1 AD&D module (Queen of the Demonweb pits). It takes place in the lair of Lolth in the Abyss, so magic and magic weapons worked differently than the players expected.
It was a murder module so I had to buff the players with some special magig items that worked there to not have them all killed too quickly. They all got killed anyway.
So you can tweak that stuff if you want.

I have complitly no clue wtf you talking about some ppls should don't have power, trust me I don't give a single fuck about threats, with this funny talking you "holds no weight" and "You have however chosen to act in a certain tone and way", can you ban yourself too for threats ? cause i feel threated

and no I don't curse using "fuck" its slag mode in poland we use kurwa (fuck) as dot

Okay, that's DYNIA now gone. I'll say again that publicly arguing with moderation guidance isn't acceptable, and when that comes on top of a history of nothing but abrasive, heated and provocative posting it's not going to end well.

General observation:

Every RPG has to have like at least 20 levels today, it seems. Back then that was only the norm in loot&level action hack&slash fests like Diablo, completely hinging on that kind of gameplay loop. Nowadays even in games such as POE Deadfire you've barely shipped past Tutorial Island, and have already leveled up a fistful of times in the process (for the record, in BG3 you also level up comparably fast early on, which adds to the problem perceived by the OP).

I think if the Realms Of Arkania trilogy were to be released today, people would rage all over the place. Each entry is a full game -- and each covering 2-4 levels at best. By the end of the trilogy, you're usually level 8-9ish or thereabouts.

Mind you, the DSA P&P system behind that at that time was in many ways opposed to what devs&players consider addictive video game progression: Not only are all/most spells available right from the start -- it's also only a matter of how reliably you can cast them (which gets better over time provided you level them up). Additionally, in the game, you can get and access the best gear immediately from the shops, provided you have the money... no magic fat loot everywhere, you got your gear and then for many many many hours things would change zero.

Ah, that would be fun to see those released into today's markets. PS: Larian's very first RPG prior to the first Divinity also was a game based on the same ruleset and setting. They worked with the same publisher too (but it went bust). Young Swen can still be seen here:

DnD (especially 5e) is a bit different this way. Your reward in the game is level progression. Loot and money are supposed to mean very little but the next level is everything. Combine that with the excessive amount of exp we get (which, once again, is excessive only if you do every quest there is, which not everyone will do, hence, excess) and the question is kind of logical - I have the means, I want new abilities coming with the next level, why am I denied them?

Personally have no problem with the decision. DnD is notoriously unbalanced past lvl12 (not many tables go past that number, very few official modules do too). But the question is still understandable.

If the main reward of the game is level progression, that's Diablo-like. How about story, new places to interact with and -- well new opportunities to rolepay and improvise? This holds true regardless of any TT ruleset in the world.

I can still fully relate to the request, mind. I was amused though by the backlash when Larian had announced the initial level cap (which AFAIK was lower than 12). And people didn't even know the game back then. It's just that the expectation is that you can push that addictive "level up" button at least once every hour or two.

Clearly Diablo and generally games focused on loot&levelling loops had an influence even on more traditional CRPGs... and it's not always good one in my book. In particular if that expectation is applied to like every game out there. On top of making that level up the core reward: In most games, a level up doesn't mean just that, improved hitpoints et all. It also means aquiring new spells and abilities. If you level up like every hour or two, that means a) the time you have to get accustomed to new abilities is finite -- new ones are just a couple quests away. And b) the designers also can't create scenarios by exploring those abilities a tad longer and deeper.

Whenever I see the request of "more levels, plz", I first think of cheap carrots and even cheaper rewards, like a slot machine. Lowest common reward denominators. I just can't help it anymore.

They should simply have awarded less XP for things....on my second playthrough (which I have abandoned due to boredom) I was max level again about 50% the way through Act 3, even though I skipped a lot of content that I did in my 1st playthrough. You certainly don't need to go to high levels - Bg1 showed that. I never had a issue with stopping at level 7/8 or whatever it was. Same with BG2/ToB, IWD etc - the encounters seemed to work well within those constraints. In BG3 XPs are handed out like candy - along with excessive amounts of loot (way too much for a 5e game). There is simply too much of *everything* which means you don't appreciate XPs, or items, or scrolls/potions. Even playing on Tactician doesn't change this much.

I agree there is too much stuff in BG3 when you get past 8th level or so. I have many cool magic items in my inventory, but I always forget they are there. Heck, I even forget to use powers of some of the items that I have equipped!

I think one reason why the high level spells are looking difficult to implement is because a lot of them have been pushed down to lower levels already. Here are just three examples: Revivify (3) is essentially Raise Dead (5). Spirit Weapon (2) is the same as Mordenkainen's Sword (7). Blight (4) is the same as Horrid Wilting (8).

Here's a suggestion to make some high level spells interesting & useful but not overpowered: allow concentration concurrent with other spells which also require concentration i.e., by using a high level spell you can have more than one concentration spell active.

The Wish spell is something I wish to see. BG2 did a decent job by having a menu of options which changed according to the caster's wisdom. The oldest D&D wish description I know of, going way back to the original D&D Monsters & Treasure, is as follows: "Wishes that unfortunate adventures had never happened should be granted." You know what that is? It's loading the last saved game.

I would love it if they could add a few more levels. I do realize progressing in the story is part of it, but at some point just seeing all this extra XP and having it go nowhere feels like a waste.

[quote

Whenever I see the request of "more levels, plz", I first think of cheap carrots and even cheaper rewards, like a slot machine. Lowest common reward denominators. I just can't help it anymore. [/quote]


Well I am the OP and was asking what the rationale was and also just offering my perspective on how BG3 is playing out for me. Some replies here offered me good perspective I hadn’t considered.

But I thoroughly enjoyed how DOS1 and DOS2 leveled and assumed that BG3 being another Larian game might be similar. I knew there was a cap at level 12 but I assumed we’d keep leveling up to the end of the game and hit level 12 much later.

I didn’t realize that with the DOS franchise that I was playing a slot machine full of cheap carrots…

I actually appreciate that we don’t hit the level cap right as the game is ending and we get to spend plenty of time fighting and questing with our maxed level characters with their end game builds.