Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Shadowheart Romance and the Hidden Fetish - (Spoilers inside)

The conversation isn't even about wine. That's the problem. Whatever you're reading into it is not actually there. Here's the facts of the conversation.
1. Wine is being shared, as is a norm during a party.
2. She asks to share a bottle with you, alone, after the party.
3. When you ask if she doesn't want to share it with the rest during the party, she says "not tonight" because she wants to share it with you alone.
4. There is some (optional) dialogue where you can ask "Just a bottle?". This is you implying that you want more than just wine. She rejects it by saying it's a fine wine that she pilfered, thus she doesn't want more. She just wants a first date.
5. You don't do more than that during the night. You share the bottle, talk like people would during a first date.
6. She'll once again shut down an (optional) attempt at getting more done and you share a romantic first date kiss at the end of it.
7. You start your relationship officially after that night.

That's not a conversation about wine. Whatsoever. The wine is irrelevant. The conversation is about having a first date together, and such first date is done in private. Then you have the first date. Wine hardly even gets mentioned if you don't act like a horny teenager that keeps pushing her for sex.

Read the above and understand that I am not denying subtext. You have never even explained why she would be "threatened" by the 5 origin companions but not Halsin. It's been asked to you multiple times, but you ignored it every time and instead of saying why you think so, all you've done is repeat that you think so. What you call "large portions of chapter 3" are also incredibly short dialogues, accumulate to a very tiny part of her romance, that are all optional, and have no impact on the outcome of anything during her main unavoidable romance story.

I do not know what dialogue after the Temple of Shar you are referring to. If you mean the incredibly short dialogues I referred to above, then read above.

I am, otherwise I wouldn't be writing entire paragraphs about it. I question if this is mutual, however. After all, you've already insulted me by saying I supposedly think mono is baseline while I have stated I think nothing in a game is baseline; by saying that I supposedly hate poly people while I have stated that all I want is the inconsistency removed, even if they double down on the decision to give her a storyline that involves it; and you refuse to answer certain questions.

I am, otherwise I wouldn't be writing entire paragraphs about it.[/quote]

Then I thank you for engaging. I partially agree but I encourage you to view the "just a bottle" line again. There are two different variants. If you've agreed to spend the night with anyone else she says ". . . first come, first served" Which is a saucy line:


And if you haven't spoken to anyone else she says "it's quite a bottle"


As I read it she's saying multiple things one of which is "don't devalue what I'm offering" or "I'm quite a catch"

She can't have a first date with you that night if you already promised to spend the night with someone else, indeed. As we already know, her saying she would want to keep you is for that first date, which is what you get if you take her up on the offer. What am I supposedly missing there?

And for the record, something missing from the video, but if you choose the dialogue option "I've arranged some.. company, yes. It could be a long evening." then she actually does exactly what she says she will do. She shares the bottle with you on the spot by filling your glass, because she knows you have other plans for the night. Do you need more proof that there's no subtext here?


This is a reply to you asking for more than just the sharing of a bottle together. You are asking for sex. It's her stating she does not want more, she wants just a first date. It's evident here, and throughout the game, that she's just not that kind of girl (Lae'zel is, though). I explained that already in the post you replied to. Here's the quote:

I know you 'explained' it, I was responding to your #4 and was asking you look at with new eyes.

I guess I do think she is "that sort of girl" which is to say she's the sort of woman I like: free, open, in control of her sexuality. But I understand why you want to see her differently. It's a sweet scene.

There's no specific way I want to see her as. I simply see her as the person the game portrays her as. And that person is someone who, based on the evidence we just spoke of, wants to have a first date with you, and will ask you to reconsider your plans with someone else that night to spend the night with her on a date, but isn't willing to sleep with you on your first date.

None of which indicates any kind of want to share you with others, then or otherwise, and none of which is related to the intricacies of wine except that happens to be what you're drinking on the night that you have your first date.

You, on the other hand, seem to want to see her as a "free, open girl". And thus, you made up some subtext that fits that for your own game's roleplay.

And I believe you are doing the same - seeing her as you want to see her. Again. Try to understand that this isn't obvious - this is a matter of interpretation. We are doing the same thing - each seeing through our own lenses. Neither of can cast true sight - we must look through colored lenses.

(and for the love of Bhaal try to remember that you are taking a position can only be maintained if the game dialogue is changed so your interpretation isn't obvious to either me or to the author)

This is the exact problem the discussion continues to run into. Some people are saying "this is how I read the interactions" and some other people are saying "you're making that up." That's why this will continue to circle forever. Agreeing that it is open to interpretation is meaningless when one party will continue to assert that one interpretation is invalid.

Exactly.

I will not lie and say that the a tiny part of me is hoping that John himself randomly shows up and says that this seemingly rather easy to interpret interaction between Shadowheart and Tav indeed didn't have some insanely elaborate and hard to understand meaning behind it.

Because if it does, then I suppose I have misunderstood not just this interaction. I have misunderstood the entire game, because it's full of similar dialogues that can be interpreted in a similar manner while - based on evidence on what happens afterwards - are not meant to be seen as such.

I honestly had the same thought. I thought about posting this to end of my last comment but decided it would be too aggressive. Annie Hall starts at 2:27. "Oh yeah well I happen to have Marshal McLuhan right here . . ."

I mean flirting is flirting, right. It can be a lot of different things with a lot of different subtle hints associated with it. If you believe everything Shadowheart says is 100% face value with absolutely nothing else to it, that's fine. In my experience flirting is not often that forward so I read some of my experience with vague flirtatious hints and extra meanings into that type of flirty interaction. There's nothing elaborate, it's just, get this, open to interpretation. That's why sometimes flirting goes well when you interpret well, and sometimes it goes poorly when you don't (as a videogame the designers have opted for more than one interpretation to go well).

It's not even the flirting that matters, however little of it there is. It's literally just her asking you on a first date, which is what you get. And if you decide to decline her invitation to said first date, she will - as she says - share the bottle with you on the spot before you leave her. The ACTIONS disagree with you two, thus the GAME disagrees with you. Yet you decide to interpret it that way anyway. The game says it's going to give you A, then it gives you A, and yet you still somehow read that as it saying it'll give you B.

I can't put it simpler than saying that you two seem to think you're more clever than the game. Sorry. But I disagree with that.

So, with that said, lets agree to disagree as I asked a bunch of posts ago already which got declined. At least I learned a lot from the chat afterwards, though.

Well I guess this is where I tap Red Queen's sign again and just walk away from the thread forever because damn. God forbid other individuals have other understandings even when the game has content for that.

Try saying this "I don't see it that way. In my mind it's not even flirting. I see as her asking you" That we could break the circle we're stuck in. We are going to leave this discussion with different opinions but if you saying "see it that way" you are acknowledging that you are not divination wizard who can magically discern truth from fiction.

I don't see it that way. Regardless of the path you take with her as Selune or Shar you are left with a great degree of confidence that she will not stray from that path in the future. If they rewrite her to better fit as being poly then you do not have that same degree of confidence that she would be happy with a monogamous relationship so no, that is not good enough for me. I do no want my character to have a poly relationship with Shadowheart. I do no want her to want a poly relationship while in a relationship with my character. As things stand right now there is always that thought in the back of your mind that she would eventually want to open things up and I hate that. If the game ever gets updated with some supposed definitive edition, DLC, a free patch, or what have you if that is the direction they go with her I will not be buying it and I will never buy another Larian game again. I will accept nothing less than the option to have her say she would be happy with your character, and only your character, for the rest of their lives.

I do agree that it has to be done with serious care. Certainly more than what they've shown the subject thus far, just look at poor Halsin. And therefore I agree that they are better off not doing it, because it would require a lot of resources that would be better spent elsewhere. I'd rather they just add a poly relationship from the start to an origin companion that is added as DLC, or added into their next game. But if they somehow found themselves to have inhumane levels of inspiration to write it properly, I wouldn't deny them the chance if I could (which I can't anyway, obviously). And I think if done properly, it wouldn't retract from her mono story. But that's a very optimistic way of looking at it.

As for definitive editions, they did make those for their previous two titles. I never played D:OS without and I never played D:OS2 with, so I don't know how much those changed. I do know D:OS2 had a very lackluster final act on release, similar to BG3. While D:OS (with the definitive edition) felt more finished, even if it was a smaller game because they had a much smaller team at the time.

For now though, just look at what is actually in her main romance story to help you forget these situations. She wants to start a family with you on a remote farm out of town. Which is exactly what you will do after the epilogue, the game says as much. She wouldn't even be able to open up the relationship there, because there's nobody else around. But that's obvious, because we know she doesn't want to - again, the game says as much. Let that be your memory of the ending.

You may or may not be right about that, but I personally find the "out of sight out of mind" mindset hard to adapt to, but let's see. I also hope by fixing Halsin by extension fixes Shadowheart, at least to the point the weird dialogue between them no longer exists.

I would absolutely love if they gave us an ending where they showed Tav and SH on their farm, with Scratch, the owlbear and various other animals, and her parents if you saved them. Maybe they could do something with the githyanki egg too (if you take it) because it would be hilarious, yet heartwarming seeing SH raise a gith child, considering how she was before lol Perhaps they also have a baby already or on the way. Either way, it would be such a beautiful family moment. As far as I'm aware, SH never says she wants anything more than this. So she should get what she truly wants and deserves. Us getting to see it would make it so much more meaningful.

It wouldn't be enough for me to buy their future games, but this would be better than nothing.

On the other note, act1 is a perfect time for some bear hunting Uh, oops, that bear who I totally didn't know was halsin, turned out to be Halsin? I'm soo sorry.

Lol "accidents" happen