Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General A lengthy review after pondering about the game.

Regarding Karlach's power level, I think that being from the blood war isn't in itself over the top. I think the concept of a tiefling who got sold into fighting in the blood war is genuinely pretty interesting and an acceptable backstory. It's when Larian started adding to that, saying she was Zariel's favored warrior, some elite, well-known warrior of Avernus and when they put the infernal engine in her chest that was when it got to be too much. They simply lacked restraint. She could have just been an unlucky warrior who struggled and survived by the skin of her teeth in a meatgrinder she shouldn't have had any business surviving in. But Larian simply had to just keep piling on, as they did with everything else.

Unpopular opinion maybe but Shadowheart should have been even more special - she should have been Aylin's sister - and I suspect she was in some early draft. This puts her on par with the other origins. Otherwise why would
At present she's the least remarkable of the origins.

Imo the problem isn't that the origins are too special but that the Tav isn't special at all. But then again I chose to become a god in both BG2 and WotR so that shows that I have bad taste.

I actually agree in 1 thing yu said.. Tav is not that Special if yu Bring Gale in your Game the game will actually put him as the Protagonist kinda sux this.. and he is the only origin that i have this feeling that i was his companion not the other way around and i actually hate this feeling so much that i never bring him again in any of my games befor the first time.
But Regarding Shadowheart stuff.. i actually think that she is the best companion and her history dosent matter the side yu chose for her is great.
Her, Minthara, Jaheira and Minsc the rest i really don give a F..hauhauha
i only bring then for the Xp at the beginning of the game then get rid of all of then when i had the chance asap never think twice..hauhauauha
BTW sorry for the Poor english thats not my first Language im trying my best..rs
(Astarion is always the first to go i kind enjoy kill him my self and i was glad that i get to kill him twice in the game) huahauhauha
Shame i cant do the same with Gale i had to send him away.. why larian why ?!?!?!
Let me cut his head off it will make me feell so goood for the itens he stole from me...
and from the times i had to tolerate him anoying my ass with romance stuff that i refuse 300 times.

Actually, for Jaheira, I didn't mind nearly as much. First, it's left a bit fuzzy just how much of the original "Bhaalspawn saga" canonically happened or in what way, or how 2nd edition power levels translate to 5th edition levels. And I can accept the idea of something along the lines of "Jaheira aged, and took a long break from adventuring, and when she DID adventure it was against threats a bit more mundane than she fought with the Bhaalspawn. So over the years she deleveled a bit as she lost her edge, and she gave away her powerful equipment to others who really needed it." The rationale for Jaheira becoming depowered feels a bit more natural.

Gale and Karlach are definitely the worst offenders for "Why the hell are you level 1." Like, look at Astarion. He's definitely got a "Special" background, but it makes sense for his level: he's just some vampire spawn, a puppet abused by his master until he escaped. If we boosted Astarion's backstory to the level of Gale, it would be like "ASTARION WAS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL VAMPIRE LORDS WHO EVER LIVED."

I agree for certain, and especially as time goes on, it slowly falls down and down the list of enjoyable cRPGs for me. No longer in the Top 5, and feels mostly held up by its gameplay at this point - which, despite Larian's distaste for 5e to the point they took all consequences away from using the tadpole powers, is still incredibly fun and well-done.

The story is a mess, though. Both in terms of the timeline of events, how glaring some of the rewrites are, how poorly treated some characters are, how messy others are...

I basically can't care about Shart's story anymore, because of treatment of a certain old BG character in her storyline. I don't WANT to do her story anymore, to the point I don't take her with me anymore (or get her killed so I can at least take the prism off her).

Wyll? I took him with me to Which really feels like it's a bug, but Act 3 is such a bloody mess that I genuinely can't tell if it's a bug, or he just got shafted that hard by his close-to-deadline rewrite. Either way, it just soured me entirely, to the point I no longer pick him up.

Karlach's endings are so mishandled I can't bear to take her with me anymore.

Halsin? We have a nearly 70 page thread about what's wrong with Halsin.

Lae'zel and Astarion feel like the only two companions who are mostly well-written or at least don't have a ton of "warts", as you call them, in their storylines.

Gale is just kind of there.

Jaheira is mostly fine, no comment on Minsc since I haven't seen him yet.

BG3 is, effectively, a spectacle best enjoyed by mindlessly going along with it. If you look too hard, it all begins to fall apart.

I've basically only got three playthroughs left planned, then I don't know if I'll be picking the game up ever again - unless a Definitive Edition release magically fixes the copious amount of problems it has, from storyline to lore to bugs to endings, etc. And only one of those playthroughs will involve taking any companions besides Astarion, really. One of them will be a pure hireling "solo" run for an evil Durge, because I just cannot care any more about these characters - not because I dislike them, but because almost all of them are so mishandled or shafted that it becomes too disappointing and frustrating to go through 90+ hours for their stories.

It's not a terrible game, but it just... isn't a good one for me, I suppose.

Good thread. Saying anything critical about BG3 has me feeling like I'm being gaslit.

For context, I've got about 600 hours in BG3. I've nearly completed 5 playthroughs. I've had fun. But the cracks in the game are becoming increasingly apparent with each playthrough, and as a longtime D&D fan I feel like I'm done with this one until modders can hopefully give it more longevity. I started adding difficulty mods by the time I hit Act 2 on playthrough #1 because the game is so ridiculously easy, and I don't use half of the changes Larian made to the 5e ruleset... much of which is completely out of scope for a D&D game. 12 attacks per round? Seriously? No other D&D game, ever, has fubarred the ruleset this badly.

There's a handful of companions, and the only one who seems to have a different story from the rest is Wyll, who has the least content. Every other companion is essentially, "I was abused by people in my past."

Credit where credit is due, the voice-over performances are very good. Some of the changes to the classes are good and addressed flaws in the 5e ruleset. But it's overshadowed by just how ridiculous the other changes are.

The story is all over the place. We don't know much about the antagonists until it's time to kill them. Ketheric seemed like an interesting character for a hot minute there. The only antagonist we are exposed to throughout the game is Raphael, who's probably the best character.

The maps are beautiful and the terrain makes for interesting vertical combat, but again I'm forced to adhere to a list of self-restrictions just to feel any sense of being pressured. The AI is buggy and can't handle when you use spells like Darkness. The players are flooded with consumables but the enemies have access to none of it.

The camping/rest system is pretty terrible. It's something that D&D games have always struggled with a bit, usually refined by community mods, but BG3 was supposed to be closer to a tabletop experience, where you can't rest constantly and go nova at the start of every encounter. Instead we got OC NWN1 where we can rest constantly. They added a few zones that prohibited rest - they were SO close. All they needed to do was extend this idea to more areas on higher difficulties.

Speaking of difficulties - having Story Mode, Easy Mode, and Normal Mode is not enough granularity for a cRPG in 2023. Look at the other games in the genre today. Look at them 20 years ago. They all have more complex difficulty settings that allow the player more control over their experience. I shouldn't be walking over modded high difficulty on my first playthrough without even utilizing any multi-class builds or specific D&D knowledge.

I really want to put this game up with the greats on my replay list. I replay most of the D&D cRPGs annually. At this point it will need a massive overhaul mod, or just huge changes in the Definitive Edition, for that to happen. At the very least I need a good tactical experience that pressures me to make decisions about my resources and doesn't require that I hold myself accountable for not breaking the game at every turn.

Yup, sounds like you are in the C/RPG genre for the writing, eg lore, narrative, character development etc. And unfortunately, that is the one area Larian has never been good at and BG3 did not buck the trend in any way whatsoever.

BG3 feels like half of a game. So many aspects of it are simply cut short or left unfinished that the more I play it, the more I find myself disliking it. I cant really comment on the combat due to not really playing CRPGs of old (bar Neverwinter Nights, if we are talking 'old school') and only being familiar with one other Larian title, nor do I have an understanding of D&D lore, so these are my blind spots. But I think my time with EA has coloured my opinion of BG3 somewhat, as I really feel like the final product is complete jank due to missing/residual narrative content that seems especially egregious when you hit Act 3, which almost feels like the entire plot got a complete redux as well as several other aspects throughout, but was simply never expanded upon, let alone finished.

If Im being frank,(to me) some of the writing in the latter half of the game almost feels like when a uni student just blurts out whatever random thing comes into their head to fulfill the word count requirement on a written essay that is due to be handed in the next day.

This isnt to say that I dont like the game, I enjoy it. I also like that it brings a new audience to a genre that has been stagnating for quite some time. But for now I think I'll be taking a big step back from playing for likely at least a year or more unless my friends wish to play multiplayer.

You do not seem to understand why people are complaining regarding this issue.
Romances are pushed onto players whether we like it or not. Its either sleep with me or I dislike you. What if we just want a BRO? Or a Friend? There are no friendship talks or options, which is a MAJOR oversight in my opinion. Particularly since the prior games did that quite well (and even better with some amazing Friendship mods).

At worst, this leads to player not even wanting to engage/talk with companions.
I believe in order of importance Larian should of concentrated on:

1. Friendships/ Bro talk.
2. Friendships/ Bro talk.
3. Friendships/ Bro talk.
4. Light romances leading to kissing.
5. Deep romances leading to sex.

But what we got are

1. Sudden deep romances leading to kissing and sex.

Arguably It is way easier to write a deep sexual relationship dialogues (lol) than a deep friendship dialogues...Maybe why Larian gaved up on the later. But....
It feels more like the developer is trying to make some kind of point? Like everything is sexualized nowdays or whatever etc...

Not been my experience but, again, I tend to be comfortable with flirting coming from people I don't want to sleep with. Lae'zel and I had fling, I ended it she still thinks I'm great. Wyll and I danced, our eyes met and I turned my head before it could lead to anything more. 100% approval. Karlach is pretty bro with me - talking about killing demons and askin "what's cookin" often. We argue about soul coins but otherwise get along. Jaheria and Minsc are friends.

Is it a video game romance? Yes. Would it better if it were longer? yes Better if you could talk about the boundaries of your relationship? Sure. Was it any worse than Anoyamen my lady?

Yeah honestly, I complain about this game a lot but I don't get what people mean when they say it's too horny. I mean, all I really know is:

1. Lae'zel is very forward, but then again she's from an entire other alien culture so who knows how gith are usually.
2. Gale seemed to have problems taking no for an answer, but from what I understand that was a bug.
3. It can feel a little weird early on when so many characters are flirting with you (because you recruit so many people and they want to give the opportunity to have their romance initiated ASAP I guess.)

But that's really it; I really don't know what people mean when they say that it's pushed on players or it's "Sleep with me or I dislike you." There's other criticisms I have (namely all the romances seem pretty shallow) but I never had this problem rejecting people.

I totally agree. I was only interested in Shadowheart and rejected the other advances. Danced with Wyll but went no further. Looked at the night sky with Gale and went no further. We stayed good buddies and they never bothered me again.
And Shadowheart... was hard to get. Reading some comments makes BG3 look like some kind of porn game, but there's less nudity here than on prime time television.

I think what probably feels the weirdest to me is the fact that romances will initiate even if you spend pretty much zero time with the person; a consequence of the camp system.

Like, comparing it to BG2. There was no "camp". If you booted someone from your party, or weren't traveling with them, they were kinda off doing their own thing. (They could be recruited again in a tavern, but they weren't assumed to be traveling with you.) As a result, romances only initiated with people you *actually traveled with*, and there was a lot less opportunity to swap characters around. (If I remember right, removing your romance from the party actually broke the romance? Maybe I'm remembering wrong.)

In BG3 the background assumption is that members of your party, even when they aren't with you, are in your camp. But imo, this feels weird with the romances sometimes. Like Gale, I never bought him with me ever (because my MC was a wizard). And yet his romance triggered, and then even when I rejected him I still got the weird confession scene later too. It felt very strange because it seemed to me like *I had spent barely any time with him at all.* But then other characters that I had with me all the time (namely Karlach), I somehow apparently missed their romance triggers because I never got an opportunity to romance them.

Ngl I think the sex in the game was handled very immaturely, the romances in general felt too much like a '' horny teenagers '' thing.
I get on some level it kinda has to happen very quickly and suddenly due to time constraints in the game but still, I tried to be friends with Gale and Wyll and they wouldn't stop trying to get inside my pants.
I did enjoy the Shadowheart romance tho it was a bit cheesy but it felt a lot more genuine and adult imo, while most of the others are just moreso straight up horny ( Karlach especially, I rly can't get over how '' tumblr '' she comes across... The romance with her just comes across like actual children I just find it weird ).

I think it's something RPG's in general struggle with where romance = sex, rather than actual intimacy and a real relationship.
I know these are very different games but Clive and Jill in FFXVI is probably one of the most adult and believable romance I've seen in a very long time in gaming, they're two adults who support and love each other it's not just about sex and kisses they're very clearly in love and in relationship with each other while in BG3 it feels like '' friends with benefits ''.
Again it's not unique to BG3 I think it's an issue in general with RPG's but it's a little disappointing I guess.

That's also why I did enjoy the Shadowheart romance because it did feel like you were there for her on an emotional and supportive level altho you don't really get much back from her in that regard and it's still just kinda okay.
It just feels like romance in RPG's is like pick the right dialogue options for a reward sex scene and little else.
The actual emotional and mental part of what it means to be in a relationship and devoted to someone is kinda missing and it's just all about physical contact, like people seem to think it's more important to get a hug option than better writing.

I know ppl get upset about Karlach criticism and all that but I rly do think she's one of the most frustrating ones with this and how people talk about her online, most conversation about her is basically more like fetishication of '' muscle mommy '' and memes and '' ha ha such quirky '' it feels like there's no adult substance to it.
And I also do think that shows in the marketing too I do think the marketing was kinda immature about it.
I am not saying that as a prude I actually really enjoy sexualized content if I had my way we'd have literal '' bikini armor '' in the game lmao this isn't about being a prude and anti-sex.
But sex and romance/ relationships are different and I think there's a bit of a childish hyperfocus of the former while conflating the two.

Edit: It's not even just your companions btw, it's also NPC's that are just bizarrely horny and very in your face about it.
That orc lady in act 2 just completely out of nowhere started talking about how she wanted to sleep with me lol, again I am a horny person and even I think it's too much and just weird.

I genuinely want to know what you mean by this, specifically. I got a total of two flirting scenes from Gale; one where we did the magic together early on, and I rejected him. And then later, where he invited me out to look at the night sky and he had an emotional confession of how he was in love with me (and from what I understand, I got that scene after I rejected him due to a bug.) As for Wyll, I got just one scene where he tried to dance with me, I refused, and then never got any flirting from him ever again.

So what do you mean when you say "they wouldn't stop trying to get inside your pants"? Did some things trigger for you that didn't trigger for me? I very rarely ever bought Wyll or Gale along in my party, so maybe i missed something.