Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

That's a great point. The attitudes in the kisses are all disconnected from what is said in the dialogues between them. If Tav still has the power to break up with him before the brain is defeated, why would they look helpless during all the kisses? I absolutely hate how Tav looks unhappy or timid in ALL of them.

Something else I hate is that AA also doesn't look like he's really into it, even though he's smiling sometimes. Like in the bite one, he only kisses for a short moment, then rather pushes Tav away and mocks them. It would look more like a playful interaction if Tav maybe smirks or something afterward.

I'm glad we have this board to discuss our thoughts and ideas in peace. In other places/discussions, people get very nasty and give their oh-so-intelligent "He doesn't love you now and you should stop whining" responses.

Yeah, but I can understand why they pay attention to Astarion's face, they made a smirk like on the game poster.
But honestly all their work is going to zero and minus while Tav\DU face looks like this.
Like? Tav helped with the genocide of 7k souls yesterday, said "yes" to everything. Astarion a bit, shoving both in the graveyard and in the bedroom - and then this morning he does a rough sorta play bite-kiss and my Tav looks like a damsel in distress.
It's kind of a total miss for the story.

I could argue that miss for Astarion as a character, but I now it's obvious he's being written by multiple hands with different ideas.

I can tell you that division:
- this one has only passion and wildness.
- this one has only softness.
already miss, Astarion attracts with its layered moments, complex.

So Origin Karlach, a romance with Astarion.
Karlach is the first time you can kiss, and touch your love for the first time. In the perspective, they both die.
What kind of kiss does that conjure up in your mind? Imagine, and I'll tell you what I have: something passionate with an embrace that I couldn't move away from her, it's a very emotional moment. Stand for a long time huddled together.

Astarion 2 act:
"I've been waiting so long for this"
grabs her face, (and when someone grabs your face, you freeze with surprise, Astarion discouraging his partner a bit), turns sharply, looks at her neck, pulls her face in, kisses her, and then cuts off the kisses himself, holding her lips, makes a slight "hmph-ph" >:?


I can tell he's being wild and playful because he knows he won't hurt his partner. He can relax and do what he likes and is comfortable with.
And he likes-- He's doing the Power Play. When he decides the kiss starts, when it ends.
It's pretty mean ?D for the very first kiss between partners that they've been waiting for.

But Larian didn't really explain tastes and tendencies of his. So that the player studied it understood it and could deal with it.
That's not the only thing Larian didn't explain of course.
Given the trend, it's best not to try, touch anything

Having to see the Patch 6 kisses again hurt a bit not gonna lie. It's such a difference with the mod.
I see what you mean about the expressions at the start. I don't really put too much into them when I watch the (happy) kisses, perhaps I'm unconsciously explaining it away as Tav thinking about something else. When it is followed by the new expressions in the mod it doesn't feel too bad.
You said it all with that last bit, there is nothing there in the Patch 6 kisses. No romance at all.

The modder said it's a Confusion C emotion, with some positive connotations, a little smile.
The more negative associations are easy to make, thanks to Larian's presumably chosen vector for the Tav-victim-3-line-play.
Modders are open to changes, additions and if something can be made nicer, they will do their best, now and in the future.
I gotta say Larian doesn't really have emotions like "enjoyment" and all the "happy" expressions seem too much. It needs to be soft tense, more sensual.

By the way, different faces can have different impressions. I play a half elf, she has a face like that, when neutral she still looks kind of cheerful.

Yes, there is a lot of focus on Astarion's face: when he is examining Tav, even in the kneeling kiss, he takes a pause and watches Tav, the poster smirk, etc.
Personally I do like it, also that Astarion looks evil here and there: confident, proud, dominant and still enjoying it, even grining, and the poster smirk is a cherry (yeah, of course it's not loving, it's sadistic, but really pleasant to see - for certain people). But Tav's sad faces, also the focus on them, makes their great work to zero, I agree.


It's mean yes. The Karlach kiss for Spawn Astarion is interesting, indeed. Astarion likes to be dominant and to be in control before ascension. I know that some people wished this Karlach kiss for AA, though I never liked this kiss much, because it was so short and fast. Astarion likes to decide when to start and end the kiss, that's interesting. His powerplay can be pleasant to see for certain people, pushing Tav down or away, the slap, shaking his head, smirking, never expected Larian to make such a great animation for Astarion. There is nothing I dislike on that. Oh, his villainousness. The more I find it odd, that they decided to show Tav being pissed-off. Come on, let it hurt or perhaps you like to degrade yourself, and he knows it. Yeah, the narrator knows it, Astarion knows it, Tav knows it, the player knows it. Just the person responsible for the facial expressions for Tav didn't know it.


Yes, of course with the patch you could overlook it because Tav will be happy afterwards. So it wouldn't be so bad.
But if anyone happens to know the modders, feel free to ask or let them know whether the initial faces can also be changed. This is definitely a contempt/fake smile (one-sided) paired with sadness and concern. I have no idea what Larian calls that expression in their data, but it's not a real or happy smile. This is what I would look like if I saw a person who had done me harm or injustice (sadness) and whom I despised (contempt smile) and while shaking that person politely the hand in a public area, thinking: "I need to stay polite and shake your f** hands now, but - - f** you!". Or something smiliar.


Ah, I just see your answer. Well, it shows some concern in the eyebrows, yes, which you could call "confusion". But a little smile or a positive connotation, it's not, in my opinion. It's contempt smile, which indicates resentment, hatred or disdain, signaling, that the person dislikes, what is going around them. I would suggest Larian to look it up. Also in the Gur post-ascension scene, someone made the facial expressions of Astarion worse and inconsistent in patch 5. Such things (facial expressions) need to be done carefully and with knowledge. The audience are reading them. Like if they - accidently - put contempt into a face (believing it would be a "confusion" with a little positive smile), instead of a real, genuine smile, it has the opposite effect, that person than is disliking and despising the situation/person, instead of being happy or positive.

Very interesting.. My characters face seem to get the negative emotions very pronounced even when it's supposed to be neutral.

Soft, tense and sensual I can get behind that. Sounds like perfect expressions during a vampire kiss.


I liked the Karlach kiss the least when Patch 6 dropped (Astarion forcing her head into all these different position, Tav just looking like a sad ragdoll), but after having it modded it's now my favorite. I really like the way he looks at Tavs neck before kissing her. And Tavs smile right before and after the kiss in the Happy mod makes it perfect. I really do not get the pissed-off expression in Patch 6 either. What was the dev process during this, I can only wonder.

For sure, the sadness of the kisses pulls the story down and makes it all very confusing and inconsistent. I recognized the face Astarion made looked like the game poster, which I thought was neat and it was like a cheeky shoutout to the fans, but having said that, I wish that they would have prioritized making the kisses simply look enjoyable for our Tavs. They could leave in the excitement and the tension without the absurd scared faces.
They did seem to put a lot of effort into those animations but I don't understand why they went in the direction that they did with them.

Wow, thank you for sharing that about the Origin Karlach + AA romance kiss! In that context it does make sense. It was cool that they added a special kiss for the two of them. The way it is right now, it could be interpreted as AA inspecting you like you're an object, which is how I interpreted it the first time. But he could also be admiring your beauty, as he does say more than once he thinks you are so beautiful. And now you will be beautiful forever.

His devious smirking expressions are hot! I got shivers during the part where he slowly leans down towards the kneeling Tav, when the camera focuses in on his face there (dark, kind of sinister, intense, and obviously enjoying it). That part actually felt sensual and exciting to me.
I was not the biggest fan of the way he appears to slap and laugh at Tav, nor the shove, but I think the change in Tav's facial expressions here could still make a striking difference.

Totally agree. When making those kiss scenes it's like they lost the plot.

This is my wish as well. I hope some kind of improvement is on the way, although they've been quiet. Just hoping that it's being worked on quietly.

How is this still going 56 pages in?
Jesus Christ.

@Tuco Well.. you see, it's a pretty f*ked up thing to do. Forcing the player character to look disgusted, sad and scared when being with their romance partner.
We where just discussing the difference between the new kissing mods and Patch 6 maybe you would like to chime in on the changes it did in your game?

What a helpful comment!

Yeah it's still going because Larian hasn't done anything...

I'd love to be able to stop telling a game company that suddenly including DV and nonconsensual in their game with NO content warning, half a year after release while people have already enjoyed the game multiple times without, is a horrible move, and is careless and insulting to their customers.

Kind of seems like they should know that. And maybe even, idk, own up to the extremely poor form. But they seem more concerned about making female characters fun-dolls that fit every little male player fantasy, instead respecting female/queer players as basic human beings.

So silly how that works.

I see a lot of people opposing a trigger warning for the game, it frankly seem like the most controversial thing about this out there and it shocks me. I do not fall in the category that needs that trigger warning, but still I would want victims of DV and sexual violence to be warned so they do not get hurt. It is not catering to every little whim of players trauma. There are SO MANY victims of DV, new ones every day, it is not the same as censoring a game for the sake of a small precentage of gamers.

So to anyone reading this that was triggered by this, I do support you as a non DV-victim. You did NOT deserve this! You do not have to admit you like abuse to any troll. This is entirely on Larian.

I feel the same. I'm not a victim of DV myself but I have nothing but empathy and understanding for those who have gotten hurt by this very careless action by Larian. There are victims who only wanted to enjoy their game as a source of happiness and escape, and to enjoy their romance, only to click for a kiss with him and have all of those horrible feelings or trauma flooding back. There will be more who get affected by it the longer nothing is done about it. Frankly, it's shameful and reckless not to acknowledge that it's a problem.
Why would the thread not keep going? Player agency still hasn't been restored.
I shouldn't be shocked by how many people victim-shame and even make fun of the issue, but it is disgraceful.

I want to say that mods is good, of course. But I haven’t played with them for a long time, I don’t want to think about how to install them, update them, and so on. And there are a lot of such people, I think. And I will still remember that in the game, without mods, everything is the same, the same fear on Tav’s face. I want Larian to officially fix Tav's face when kissing Astarion, and not shift this matter to the modders. So, in no case should you deviate from this topic.

When the content that traumatizes people is corrected, then this topic will no longer be relevant. If a topic is created that affects a lot of people - people write posts, posts make pages - this is normal forum practice. Nothing surprising.


I don't know of any other case in the gaming industry where players have been so psychologically injured in a game due to the sudden addition of DV content. And it's still going on to this day. And it will continue as long as developers ignore it. Unfortunately, the lack of any reaction or statement from the company about this, only creates a favorable environment for bullers who try to bully victims of violence. Dear Larian, please stop pretending that nothing is happening and everything is fine and wonderful in your game.


I agree, I used to not play games with mods at all, with few exceptions. In the case of BG3, mods act as the only help for those who want to continue to enjoy the game (and are only available to PC users), and as a hope for an improved story in the future. But the mimicry of a victim of violence on the player character's face - that shouldn't be in the main version of the game. Larian should officially fix it.

The reason I did bring up the Patch 6 vs mods debate was to maybe help Larian to see how they might change the kisses. And comparing notes is always interesting since we are all a little bit different in what we prefer and what we notice the most. But it will always be Larians responsability to clean up this mess, it should not be left in the game as it is now. Anyone with a shred of empathy will find the kisses uncomfortable to watch if they vibe with their main character at all.
How those expressions was picked for a romatic moment I really can not imagine. I for one would not think of disgust and fear when thinking of romantic kissing.

Forcing player character to do things they obviously dont want to is kinda Larian thing tho ... :-/

It's great PC players get a break from the kiss torture unfortunately us console plebs still have to suffer them,
I am doing several Durge runs at the moment the most recent are the all evil foursome , Minthara , DJ Shadowheart , Embrace and Astarion and out the 4 of them Astarion X Durge have that stupid kiss.

Thanks I Hate It !!

The only thing I can think of is the moment when That made me very uncomfortable. But the difference is that in the Patch 6 AA kisses it's forced character emotion on a repeatable action that is supposed to be enjoyable to watch. What is romance if it is not enjoyable?

I see. Especially in the romance dialog. Here
1 - I wanna power. 2 - F me. 3 - School. 4 - F u

I think this face into kiss is over the edge and already inappropriate. Literally replace after 7 months of release the happy kiss with a scared kiss when even the whole script contradicts that kiss. (14 feb btw)
3 - for a scared Tav
12 - for a consenting lover Tav.

Mods are doing fine, but I will never support no Larian products, no Hasbro products, DnD, why, what for? To create a character, neutral-evil, choose to kiss on Feb 14 and see my character shake with fear?
And then look at the 12 lines of consonant dynamics for the vampire couple in this RPG.