Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Which ones are you think about? Are you referring to the theory that the Emperor infected us with the tadpoles to start with? That's he's the opening cutscene illithid? If so I think that's probably correct. It's consistent with it's actions in the dialogues. The guardian dangles the promise of cure before our eyes and the they are forced to reveal their true form they state that tadpoles aren't an infection - they are part of a process of evolution.

I did not meant him being the one tadpoling us - the cinematic is old and it is not a 100% match and there is an issue with the mind flayer at the goblin camp either telling you it is the one tadpoling you (if you do the speak with death spell) or not (if the goblin king is doing it). But I do think it was him. The mind flayer in the cinematic is a renegade one - it was surely him that took out the others. It makes sense that it was the Emperor and I don't mind him doing it. He had not much time and needed allies to help him, there weren't that many options.

I meant other things,
some people saying the Emperor forced the tadpoles onto them (esp. astral one) or forcing them to become a mind flayer. He does no such thing. He asks us to use the powers as it makes us stronger, and that is correct. He does not ask us to transform into a mind flayer, we have to ask him if we can transform. He also asks us to use the astral tadpole but you can decline. Only if someone took tadpoles before you have to make a Wis save if you want to put it away for later (you can always stomp it though) - but this is not his doing but you are basically fighting your own urge (tadpoled influenced) to evolve.
Saying that he constantly is lying to you is also incorrect. Or that he betrays you in the ending - if you free Orpheus he will leave because you betray him - he said several times that he is sure that Orpheus will kill him (and likely tav + co too). And some other stuff like Duke Stelmane was his girlfriend etc. which is not true - he tells you it was not love and she was a business partner. But yes, she apparently was his thrall and I can understand people being upset by this.

He is definitely not an altruistic person, his only goal is his freedom but his goal aligns with yours and both you and him are stuck with each other and I think this is the main problem people have with him
(aside from customizing a hot guardian that turns out to be a (still hot if you are into it) mind flayer
.

I don't know if he knew that in the end your infection will be cured. It doesn't matter that you took tadpoles - you are tadpole free at the end (if you don't transform). He does think that he is a better version of his previous being, that he is superior now. So he encourages us using the powers. But you can play the game without using the powers and he will ask you but never force you to use tadpoles or the power. As I said, I don't know if he suspected a cure is possible (he says the tadpole can't be removed due to the netherese magic so maybe at the end it would be possible) or if he indead thought there is no cure that you would survive and hoped you would embrace becoming a mind flayer and "The greatest ally he could have wished". He is manipulative sure (although not always) but when he tells you that you need more information and normal cures won't work it is actually correct.


Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Now it *is* fun to have to piece together his identity - to critically read his comments, to see the consequences of becoming illithid, to realize that he's yet another villian etc . . . "So you only fed on the brains of criminals but you also ran the largest criminal organization in Baldur's Gate? Sounds like ranching. You brought humanoids into a life of crime and when the were caught you were ready to eat them."

DM can I *please* get an insight check? I've figured this out and want to say something to the mind flayer

Compare this Omelleum who only consumes people who attack the society and is on a search for an alternative. Omelleum comes across as sincere and the Emperor comes across as the manipulator it is.

You can find reports and books about the knights and one is saying that they suspect the Emperor to be (redacted)
(->they might have been suspected him to be a mind flayer at some point) but that they can't find any nefarious actions. And Duke Stelmane was part of the leading council of Baldurs Gate and practically leader (aside from the Emperor) of the knights. There is also the guild and the Zhentarim... the knights weren't the only ones.

But again, it doesn't sound he like was doing "his city" a disservice (compare it with Gortash). And he is a mind flayer - he has to eat. He tries not to eat innocents but criminals (we don't know details - maybe not a simple thief but a murderer etc.). Same with Omeluum - he is eating persons acting against the society whatever that means. He also worked with a Lich before. I very like Omeluum too but he is also a mind flayer that needs to eat.

Omeluum was also manipulating us - he knew the ring he gave us doesn't do anything. He meant well though. Omeluum and the Emperor are mind flayers, illusions and manipulation is their language. They are still quite different from each other - I don't know if Omeluum remembers his past, he appears more alien to be compared to the Emperor, who sounds more like a normal person (for example if Omeluum speaks about him feeling warmth when he sees you). As the Emperor says, not all mind flayers are the same. While Omeluum does his research the Emperor is trying to influence Baldurs Gate 3 - and from what we could see in his hideout not for material wealth. He wasn't destabilizing or hurting the city apparently - and given his past with the city I wouldn't expect him to do anything to hurt Baldurs Gate.

I don't think Omeluum would have been able to do what the Emperor did - like appearing as dream guardian I mean. Just based on the way human speech and behaviour seems a little foreign and alien to him. But given his powers I would expect Omeluum to use manipulation and illusion if it helps him as well (and he does to conceal his presence, which is understandable).

The Emperor manipulates us to make us trust him, so that he can trust us instead - given that he was nearly killed in sleep by his former lover it is understandable that he is careful in this regard.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Well that is the garden path, sure smile The question the OP raises is: why is the alternative path so poorly supported? Yes, I want to: A) take down our manipulator and B) have the choice to resist the tadpole power rewarded

You can take him down at the end, you are betraying him in this case. Yes he manipulates us to help him but I think Tav/player char can do more manipulation. I get it, people hate being stuck with him until the end.


Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I don't play evil either. One of the major flaws of the game is that there isn't an ending for good aligned players. You are forced to go with evil #1 (emperor) or evil #2 (orpheus) and of the two Orpheus is the lesser evil and the one that has never wronged you.

I play good and still like my ending - it was a good ending.
Orpheus is dead but everyone else lives. Including the Emperor. I agree Orpheus isn't much developed, why should I care about Orpheus? Only reason is that in the future his powers might be useful again. But I rather stay with the Emperor who has actually protected us from turning into a mind flayer and becoming a thrall of the absolute and warned us about dangerous situations and who did not betrayed my trust. Orpheus didn't wrong you? He isn't barely there in the game - but if you turn against the Emperor Orpheus doesn't care at all about you and you get a game over. For him you are just a thrall or on your way to become a mind flayer - just like the Emperor told us. We also don't really know about Orpheus - Gith aren't really nice people too. I wouldn't say he is defintely the lesser evil. That would remain to be seen.


Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Did you never feel tempted by Daisy's seductions? I'm not talking about K-I-S-S-I-N-G I mean resolving an issue with AUTHORITY. I mean: [illihid] [detect thoughts], I mean using the power from the Omelleum potion.

After Daisy came to you in a dream you could talk to you companions about how you kissed them or not. With the emperor we get nothing. And the sceptical Tav gets terrible lines. "you disgust me" isn't what I want to say. I want to say. "I know you infected me", I resent you for dangling a cure you never intended to deliver

I didn't use the powers because it was clear that using the powers are tied to Illithid options and making the tadpole stronger and you became more and more dreams by using them. So no, that was not appealing to me. There are enough other ways in the game to get the same results. Yes, some lines are lacking. I think everyone has the issue that sometimes Tav/player character says something that they hadn't in mind. Or they would have wished other lines. The emperor as daisy replacement was a late rewrite and it shows. I think there should be a line to tell the dream guardian that we know this is not his true form - if you speak with your companions after the first dream this is quite obvious.


Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
This is a key point. I've already made but I want to underline it. Daisy's real seduction attempts were not shirtless encounters - they were using the tadpole powers. Daisy's seductions were like the seductions of Raphel - we could take the easy path or hard one.

And this is also true of the Guardian except that good-aligned players are punished for avoiding his seductions

With Daisy if you used the powers one too many time then Nere could dominate you. You have become a true soul and can be manipulated those with greater authority.

With the emperor, players who avoid the tadpoles get nothing. No powers, no satisfying dialogue, no extra boss fight. Avoiding evil? Bad choice Tav

I agree that I think with the powers there should be drawbacks like you said with Nere. It would make it far more interesting and indeed rewarding. But this isn't the Emperors fault but Larians. I do like the Emperor because you can approach him in a playthrough like you hate his guts and don't believe a word he says and be antagonistic to the end or you are trusting him and it does feel different. There is also much we don't really know and with him as renegade mind flayer on top of that I just find him very interesting.

The thing is - hate him or love him, there are issues and I hope we get a more refined version someday. But they won't bring Daisy back when they decided to change it to the Emperor in the last minute. And I am glad they did. But they can improve him and I hope they do.