|
|
|
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2023
|
Endings and Origins discussion below: The only one that really gets out without much of a fallout is Gale when he brings the crown to Mystra. Though I don't know for myself just yet how Mystra taking him back under her wing affects his relationship with Tav (given Mystra's grooming tendencies and Gale's deep connection to her). Lae'zel staying with Tav feels good for the romance part, but comes at the cost of her greatest wish - to become Kith'rak and ride a red dragon and wield a silver sword, now as the liberator of her people and strongest Githyanki alive. So that's a 50/50 choice, much like Shadowheart's parents and pain vs no parents and no pain but deep regrets instead. Astarion is much more evil vs good coded, but what's interesting is that his story never takes him to free himself from vampirism. If that were the case, I feel like curing him and leaving Karlach to die would've made an even greater earthquake re: what's fixable or not with a fantasy realm at hand. Wyll has a solid set of choices Imo, the only part lacking is that his story is so light in content especially in Act 2, which on one hand isn't weird given Shart and the shadow curse take the scene, but I still feel like his story could've used some more meat on those bones. Some Durge spoilers in addition to origin ending spoilers: Made a post here a good 30 pages ago here regarding this.
Based on origin Gale ending, Mystra will leave him to be with whoever he romanced, so she'll likely leave him with Tav too.
Wyll just needs more content overall, only act 3 is somewhat fine but even then the Emperor steals the show when it was meant to be Wyll's big moment. He also lacks the ability to make the choice himself; we just tell him what to do. Mizora won't stop hunting his dad so he'll presumably die eventually.
Lae'zel will not stop being hunted if she stays, and as it stands only Githyanki Tav gets to go with her if she leaves.
I don't see Shadowheart mentally recovering without Tav romance to fully support her if she lets her parents go. And judging by how she described Shar's pain after the Shadowfell I don't think letting them live is great either unless Shar just kinda stops caring which, judging by how she is, is possible.
If Astarion got an ending better than his current then there would be massive outrage, considering he's already got the most focus out of all origin companions (especially on the romance front). I don't think the conclusions are bad, even if the epilogue portayal of it is miserable (at least he gets one though, poor Shadowheart, lol).
Karlach could easily be in there where she can get fixed without going to Avernus but just has some kind of impactful negative effect. Impactful enough to make the choice to Avernus still an option, but not as silly as it is now where it really isn't an actual option because death is (almost) always worse.
The one that bothers me most is Dark Urge getting a perfect ending, really. How convenient that Bhaal killed the one aspect of you that was bothering you. The worst implication of the outcome is that you might be some sort of Withers' Chosen now, but I don't even see that as being bad considering how chill Withers is, plus he goes back to bed in the epilogue anyway.
Last edited by Michieltjuhh; 20/10/23 09:52 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Sep 2023
|
By the way,
let me toss a suggestion for an ending which has been sitting in my mind for the past few days. The whole Karlach thing with having happy and sad moments, it adds an emotional value to the story and, no matter how much it hurts, I like it. Now, all of this would feel cheap if mid-game a heart fix is added (a man can hope), so how about merely making Dammon barge into the epilogue scene as Karlach is about to combust with a perfectly good, Material Plane-friendly heart? Also, of course, for those who prefer current endings, leave them as fail states if you don't collect regular and enhanced infernal iron bits and deliver them to Dammon.
There is no real way to keep the impact of the emotional lows while also fixing her engine. We'll have to sacrifice some of that to achieve a more hopeful ending with some actual agency. The movie Stranger Than Fiction perfectly encapsulates this dilemma. Spoilers about the movie (WARNING: very long post): In that movie, Will Farrell plays an IRS auditor who realizes that he's the main character of a draft novel penned by Emma Thompson who plays an author known for her tragic endings. His struggle is to find and convince her that his life is worth more than a masterful conclusion. Will Farrel starts off as a punctual, apathetic loner who grows into an empathetic and spontaneous man. After he fell in love with a kind-hearted anarchist, Will learned to love life and the people around him. Even the annoying ones. But alas, Will isn't supposed to get a happily ever after. He is supposed to die saving a little boy from an oncoming vehicle. That ultimate act of selflessness will bring his character arc to a satisfying conclusion. In the end, he does save the boy. But he survives thanks to shrapnel from his trusty wristwatch, which blocked a vital artery from bleeding out. Emma had changed the ending. But why? As literature professor Dustin Hoffman says to Emma in the final bits of the movie, that new ending's all right, but it doesn't fit with the rest of the book. She says she'll get more time to rework it. But why change it at all? She says it's because she couldn't do it. He asks if this is because he's real, and Emma says no. She explains to Dustin that the original novel was about a man who didn't know he was supposed to die and had no say in what happened to him. But that changes when he learns of his fate. Now that he knows how it all ends and yet still struggles against it, then... "Isn't that the type of man you want to keep alive?" That's the question everyone should ask each time they decide a character's fate. The movie ends with Will in the hospital, all bandaged up. The doctor explains to him with sarcastic bemusement how he miraculously survived thanks to the piece of wristwatch now embedded in him. Even the doc knows how hackneyed this is: A glimpse of that wristwatch is how the movie started and it's what saved him. Cliche af. But it's worth it because he's worth it. His girlfriend soon comes to visit him, bringing Bavarian Sugar Cookies for him. Then the narrator whom he constantly heard in his head throughout the movie finishes up with this: "As Harold [Will] took a bite of Bavarian Sugar Cookie, he finally felt as if everything was going to be okay. Sometimes, when we lose ourselves in
fear and despair, in routine and
constancy, in hopelessness and
tragedy ... there are Bavarian Sugar
cookies.And, fortunately, when there aren't any cookies we can still find reassurance in a familiar hand on our skin ..." We then flash back to consecutive scenes of Will having touched other people's lives as the narrator lists other things that save us: "A kind and loving gesture ... Or a subtle encouragement ... Or a loving embrace ... Or an offer of comfort. Not to mention hospital gurneys ... And nose plugs ... And uneaten Danish ... And soft-spoken secrets ... And Fender Stratocasters ... And maybe, the occasional piece of fiction. And we must remember that all these
things, the nuances, the anomalies,
the subtleties which we assume only
accessorize our days, are in fact
here for a much larger and nobler
cause.
They are here to save our lives.I know the idea seems strange. But I also know that it just so happens to be true. And so it was ... a wristwatch saved Harold Crick." It is an implausible, cliched ending that you'll find on any cheesy Hallmark flick. But you know what? Tragedy is also cheesy these days, and sometimes hope is the better cheese. So why should Karlach live? Because she's suffered enough? Because she deserves better? No. Because she's the type of woman you want to keep alive. Yet you're not allowed to, and therein lies the problem. In a game like this, it should be possible. But it's not. And as for the emotional gravity of her tragic ending... well, who's to say that an uplifting speech by her after all that struggle wouldn't hit you harder than the hopeless one?
Last edited by Walking Kole; 20/10/23 11:02 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
|
I think that having the fix post gortash fight (having it act as a final flag to progress whatever) might work perfectly well, as the speech back at camp gives you several prompts already to bust out some "what the fuck, we can still try to fix you", I don't even think it would diminish the impact that much tbh, to me it would make perfect sense to have it there time-line wise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Banned
|
|
Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
|
They can't even properly finish the endings that are already in the game and you're talking about dlc? I was very hopeful, now it's time to accept the reality
|
|
|
|
|
|
Banned
|
|
Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
|
So what they brought VA's back? It was before the patch 2 so what does it change? And with literally thousands of endings availavble how to you expect them to make a dlc? Or maybe they should add some side story, like phantom liberty from cyberpunk but instead of getting screwed it would allow us to somehow fix Karlach?
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Sep 2023
|
I think that having the fix post gortash fight (having it act as a final flag to progress whatever) might work perfectly well, as the speech back at camp gives you several prompts already to bust out some "what the fuck, we can still try to fix you", I don't even think it would diminish the impact that much tbh, to me it would make perfect sense to have it there time-line wise. I'm not sure. Maybe. She pours out her heart and soul into how unfair it all is, narratively implying that there's no solution to her problem (hence the "we did all we could" part of her quest). If you just get right back into it, the tone change will be jarring. Perhaps you keep the tone and the fix if you have her give up on trying to find one but you don't. Then you could have an ending where she tells you how much she loves you for not giving up on her even when she gave up on herself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Banned
|
|
Banned
Joined: Oct 2023
|
I've been following the thread for few day now but decided to add my opinion. I don't quite understand the thread and the whole discussion, you guys got entire patch dedicated just for you, what else do you want? Karlach's story is great, it's all about making peace with the inevetable and making best of your remaining life. She gets her revenge on Gortash and now can spend her last moments with you (or whoever she romanced if you're not playing Tav) and it's beautiful, why would you want to dimnish the narration with some last second miracle or whatever? That would take away the impact of the story and cheapen it
Last edited by Conrad Curze; 21/10/23 07:18 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Sep 2023
|
So what they brought VA's back? It was before the patch 2 so what does it change? And with literally thousands of endings availavble how to you expect them to make a dlc? Or maybe they should add some side story, like phantom liberty from cyberpunk but instead of getting screwed it would allow us to somehow fix Karlach? Actually, they've been working until way after Patch 2. If it was just voicelines, it wouldn't take that long. But voicelines coupled with motion capture take a very long time. Here's Emma Gregory (Minthara) thanking BG3's voice and performance director as well as the voice and mocap production company almost a month after Patch 2. They're probably still recording stuff with the others, likely for the epilogues. What does it change? Well, it defeats your narrative that they won't do anything because they don't have to, given that they are doing a lot of things they apparently didn't need to do. The game having a lot of endings doesn't preclude DLCs. It's the flags that are the problem. Wiring them would be a hassle regardless if it's a side story or not. That's why the path of least resistance for a Karlach fix is an epilogue. However, Larian almost bankrupting themselves over Divinity and releasing a free definitive edition should tell you that they'll go all out for BG3. Again, that's not to say we'll get what we want, but they're definitely not done with expanding the game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Sep 2023
|
I've been following the thread for few day now but decided to add my opinion. I don't quite understand the thread and the whole discussion, you guys got entire patch dedicated just for you, what else do you want? Karlach's story is great, it's all about making peace with the inevetable and making best of your remaining life. She gets her revenge on Gortash and now can spend her last moments with you (or whoever she romanced if you're not playing Tav) and it's beautiful, why would you want to dimnish the narration with some last second miracle or whatever? That would take away the impact of the story and cheapen it What we want is to be able to affect what happens to Karlach. As it stands, you can't. The only choices that truly matter for her story are at the pier -- the very end. Karlach's questline is incredibly short when compared to the other origin characters -- two fetch quests and a boss fight that you need to do anyway. Meanwhile, the others get entire zones, dedicated bosses, and decently long questlines. As for her revenge, her speech right after killing Gortash spells out how empty that vengeance was for her. She is at her lowest point at that moment, having realized it's all hopeless, and killing him did nothing. Her last meaningful moment with you after that is her burning up at the pier. That's not beautiful, it's horrifying. She's seconds away from bursting into flame, and you have to decide if you let her die or if she goes back to the place she so desperately wanted to escape. Even if you believe that her story is about acceptance, that's not what you do most of the time. You spend most of your time with her hunting for a solution, rather than living it out. Karlach herself doesn't come to terms with her situation until after confronting Gortash. Stories about acceptance like the Fault in Our Stars don't waste time hoping for a solution, they give the characters closure and quality time with each other before they meet their end. We barely have any quality time with Karlach and any semblance of closure by killing Gortash is rendered meaningless because it changed nothing. What truly cheapens her story is that it's a tragedy that's forced upon us. We're not even allowed to try and fail to help her. We just watch from the sidelines. Isn't this game supposed to be about choices and weaving your own fate? Where is that for Karlach? The bigger problem, however, is that none of what's happening to her is believable in a DnD setting. You have to go out of your way to stop any potential solutions from being available. What's the point of the Gondians, the enriched infernal iron, all the magic, gods, and demons? You're not allowed to pursue any of them. How Gale was saved was quite literally an act of god, yet his story wasn't cheapened because of it. Given how lacking Karlach's content is, it will take more than one patch for her to even feel like an origin character, rather than a secondary recruit. She and Wyll got the short end of the stick.
Last edited by Walking Kole; 21/10/23 08:27 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Banned
|
|
Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
|
The fact they almost bankrupted and had stand on their heads to not go out of business should prove me wrong? Divinity's DE was a desperation, BG3 DE would be a waste of resources. There is literally zero reason to waste so many resources, DE won't bring much attention to the game, and will cost a fortune. So why would they waste so much money if literally 99% of their fans are not even happy, 99% of fans treats them as gaming industry's messiah
|
|
|
|
|
|
Banned
|
|
Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
|
Also what does it change that Minthata's VA is back? Minthara, aka the most bugged companion needs some work, cool. So tell me what does it change huh? Its Minthara getting something new not Karlach
|
|
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
|
I've been following the thread for few day now but decided to add my opinion. I don't quite understand the thread and the whole discussion, you guys got entire patch dedicated just for you, what else do you want? Karlach's story is great, it's all about making peace with the inevetable and making best of your remaining life. She gets her revenge on Gortash and now can spend her last moments with you (or whoever she romanced if you're not playing Tav) and it's beautiful, why would you want to dimnish the narration with some last second miracle or whatever? That would take away the impact of the story and cheapen it What we want is to be able to affect what happens to Karlach. As it stands, you can't. The only choices that truly matter for her story are at the pier -- the very end. Karlach's questline is incredibly short when compared to the other origin characters -- two fetch quests and a boss fight that you need to do anyway. Meanwhile, the others get entire zones, dedicated bosses, and decently long questlines. As for her revenge, her speech right after killing Gortash spells out how empty that vengeance was for her. She is at her lowest point at that moment, having realized it's all hopeless, and killing him did nothing. Her last meaningful moment with you after that is her burning up at the pier. That's not beautiful, it's horrifying. She's seconds away from bursting into flame, and you have to decide if you let her die or if she goes back to the place she so desperately wanted to escape. Even if you believe that her story is about acceptance, that's not what you do most of the time. You spend most of your time with her hunting for a solution, rather than living it out. Karlach herself doesn't come to terms with her situation until after confronting Gortash. Stories about acceptance like the Fault in Our Stars don't waste time hoping for a solution, they give the characters closure and quality time with each other before they meet their end. We barely have any quality time with Karlach and any semblance of closure by killing Gortash is rendered meaningless because it changed nothing. What truly cheapens her story is that it's a tragedy that's forced upon us. We're not even allowed to try and fail to help her. We just watch from the sidelines. Isn't this game supposed to be about choices and weaving your own fate? Where is that for Karlach? The bigger problem, however, is that none of what's happening to her is believable in a DnD setting. You have to go out of your way to stop any potential solutions from being available. What's the point of the Gondians, the enriched infernal iron, all the magic, gods, and demons? You're not allowed to pursue any of them. How Gale was saved was quite literally an act of god, yet his story wasn't cheapened because of it. Given how lacking Karlach's content is, it will take more than one patch for her to even feel like an origin character, rather than a secondary recruit. She and Wyll got the short end of the stick. I agree with this so very strongly that I logged back in just to reply with support. Really, we’re given so many options with other characters…our actions can very seriously change the entire trajectories of the lives of these people, except Karlach who we can just pat on the back. Plus…as you said, DND is full of deus ex machina workarounds. Is there literally no dwarf in all the city who’s just a little more skilled than Damon, and could this permanently fix her engine? Can’t Akabi, a literal genie, just wish her engine fixed as a reward for winning his dumb game? I’ll stop at those two examples because I’ll flood the thread with all the possibilities. If some players like tragedy, I support that, let them choose a tragic ending for any of the characters; for the rest of us, we could also have a fluffy ending choice and that wouldn’t restrict anyone else’s choices.
#JusticeForKarlach
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Sep 2023
|
The fact they almost bankrupted and had stand on their heads to not go out of business should prove me wrong? Divinity's DE was a desperation, BG3 DE would be a waste of resources. There is literally zero reason to waste so many resources, DE won't bring much attention to the game, and will cost a fortune. So why would they waste so much money if literally 99% of their fans are not even happy, 99% of fans treats them as gaming industry's messiah Yes, it should prove you wrong. They went above and beyond to polish that game, even though they could've just moved on to the next project. If they were desperate for money, they wouldn't have made the DE free for owners of the base game. Plenty of studios make bank with definitive editions. Just look at Rockstar and their GTA trilogy remakes.It's not just fans but the entire gaming community that treats them with reverence. Anything that Larian does will be watched by the gaming community. So DE will bring attention to the game. How much it costs depends on what they add to it, but they can recoup their costs and make a pretty penny out of a second round of sales if what they have is enticing enough.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Sep 2023
|
Also what does it change that Minthata's VA is back? Minthara, aka the most bugged companion needs some work, cool. So tell me what does it change huh? Its Minthara getting something new not Karlach She's back because she's recording new lines and new scenes. Why do that, rather than only fixing the bugs that are locking out her existing lines? If Minthara's back, then so is Karlach and all the others.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Banned
|
|
Banned
Joined: Oct 2023
|
I've been following the thread for few day now but decided to add my opinion. I don't quite understand the thread and the whole discussion, you guys got entire patch dedicated just for you, what else do you want? Karlach's story is great, it's all about making peace with the inevetable and making best of your remaining life. She gets her revenge on Gortash and now can spend her last moments with you (or whoever she romanced if you're not playing Tav) and it's beautiful, why would you want to dimnish the narration with some last second miracle or whatever? That would take away the impact of the story and cheapen it What we want is to be able to affect what happens to Karlach. As it stands, you can't. The only choices that truly matter for her story are at the pier -- the very end. Karlach's questline is incredibly short when compared to the other origin characters -- two fetch quests and a boss fight that you need to do anyway. Meanwhile, the others get entire zones, dedicated bosses, and decently long questlines. As for her revenge, her speech right after killing Gortash spells out how empty that vengeance was for her. She is at her lowest point at that moment, having realized it's all hopeless, and killing him did nothing. Her last meaningful moment with you after that is her burning up at the pier. That's not beautiful, it's horrifying. She's seconds away from bursting into flame, and you have to decide if you let her die or if she goes back to the place she so desperately wanted to escape. Even if you believe that her story is about acceptance, that's not what you do most of the time. You spend most of your time with her hunting for a solution, rather than living it out. Karlach herself doesn't come to terms with her situation until after confronting Gortash. Stories about acceptance like the Fault in Our Stars don't waste time hoping for a solution, they give the characters closure and quality time with each other before they meet their end. We barely have any quality time with Karlach and any semblance of closure by killing Gortash is rendered meaningless because it changed nothing. What truly cheapens her story is that it's a tragedy that's forced upon us. We're not even allowed to try and fail to help her. We just watch from the sidelines. Isn't this game supposed to be about choices and weaving your own fate? Where is that for Karlach? The bigger problem, however, is that none of what's happening to her is believable in a DnD setting. You have to go out of your way to stop any potential solutions from being available. What's the point of the Gondians, the enriched infernal iron, all the magic, gods, and demons? You're not allowed to pursue any of them. How Gale was saved was quite literally an act of god, yet his story wasn't cheapened because of it. Given how lacking Karlach's content is, it will take more than one patch for her to even feel like an origin character, rather than a secondary recruit. She and Wyll got the short end of the stick. Except you can change her fate and you can convince her to keep fighting, hell, there's entire cutscene at the end added specifically because players requested it, how do you want even more than that? And we have quite plenty of quality time with Karlach across the acts, obviously it could be more but this is rpg not dating simulator. I can agree that her questline is a bit shorter than some companions but it's still great and nicely ties to the main story with Gortash, makes her feel like a main character, other companions don't have that. As for solutions, well, Dammon tried and failed, we didn't find anything useful with Gortash so yeah, we're kinda out of options. Obviously you can try some gymnastics with DnD mechanics, but with ridiculous options the game offers it would be horrible for the narration because basically everything could be solved with Wish, some divine intervention or whatever so i'm happy Larian sticked to their story. It's a bit similar to the Cyberpunk story, we try many different solutions and fail, that doesn't mean the story isn't rewarding or great. I also don't know why people bring up Wyll constantly, his story is also great so I don't know what more you'd like for him, Halsin for example doesn't have his own dungeon but is still good character
|
|
|
|
|
|
Volunteer Moderator
|
|
Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
|
@BitterSchizo, you have more than made your point, probably rather too heatedly, that you don't believe Larian will make changes to Karlach's ending. That is not on topic here. Whether or not Larian will do something is irrelevant to the question of whether or not people want them to. So let's not derail the thread with any further posts from you on that subject.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Sep 2023
|
Except you can change her fate and you can convince her to keep fighting, hell, there's entire cutscene at the end added specifically because players requested it, how do you want even more than that? And we have quite plenty of quality time with Karlach across the acts, obviously it could be more but this is rpg not dating simulator. I can agree that her questline is a bit shorter than some companions but it's still great and nicely ties to the main story with Gortash, makes her feel like a main character, other companions don't have that. As for solutions, well, Dammon tried and failed, we didn't find anything useful with Gortash so yeah, we're kinda out of options. Obviously you can try some gymnastics with DnD mechanics, but with ridiculous options the game offers it would be horrible for the narration because basically everything could be solved with Wish, some divine intervention or whatever so i'm happy Larian sticked to their story. It's a bit similar to the Cyberpunk story, we try many different solutions and fail, that doesn't mean the story isn't rewarding or great. I also don't know why people bring up Wyll constantly, his story is also great so I don't know what more you'd like for him, Halsin for example doesn't have his own dungeon but is still good character You can change her fate only at the very end (or if you decide to turn her into a mindflayer). She doesn't need much convincing to fight with you until the end. That's what she wanted to do before and after her confrontation with Gortash. You have to play your cards very badly in order for her to leave your party. The only thing she needs convincing of is whether to go back to Avernus or not, which happens at the end. That Avernus cutscene is not what players requested. What we've been requesting from the start was a way to fix her. That scene was added because, before that, the Avernus choice literally ended with a cut to black, meaning a cutscene should've been there but was missing. That they added it in such a short amount of time is awesome but it's not what most of us were talking about in our feedback. By quality time, I don't mean dating. I mean having heart-to-heart moments, her spending time with people that she knows, and getting some actual closure. She even suggests going out to dinner with a friend in the city. Why not do that? The scavenger hunt just wastes the time she could've spent doing that instead. Her questline is very, very short. Especially when you compare it to Astarion, Shadowheart, or Lae'zel. Both Shadowheart and Lae'zel's questlines were tailor-made for the main story. Lae'zel's creche subplot is a major part of Act 1, while Act 2 is pretty much Shadowheart's turf. Karlach's only meaningful connection to the main story is Gortash, and that ends quickly. Just look at this post to get an idea of how staggering the difference is.Hard to say she feels like an MC when you can ignore her entire questline and nothing much changes. Astarion has more of a sidequest going, but it's fully fleshed out. Gale doesn't get much out of the main story, but he has a good thing going for him in his own right (if a bit rushed). Wyll on the other hand feels sidelined by the Emperor in his own story. Halsin isn't an origin character, so not having any dedicated content for him is to be expected. Back to Karlach -- you yourself said it. We try (once!) with Dammon. He tells us that if he's worth his salt, he'd have figured something out by the next time we meet. Yet, when we meet him again he says we're out of luck. Not worth his salt, I guess? That's a very abrupt and disappointing development. There's not even an attempt at something new here. As for Gortash, he's directly connected to the quest to save the Gondians. They are infernal engine mechanics who built the Steel Watch (which drop enriched infernal iron). Saving them is infamously frustrating to do and could've yielded a hard-won solution for Karlach, but we're not allowed to pursue that path. Cyberpunk's story is one of tragedy from the get-go. You also try and fail multiple times, not just once, and even then if you play your cards right, you can get a hopeful open ending where you're free from the shackles that bound you to Night City and given a chance to save yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Aug 2023
|
I've been following the thread for few day now but decided to add my opinion. I don't quite understand the thread and the whole discussion, you guys got entire patch dedicated just for you, what else do you want? Karlach's story is great, it's all about making peace with the inevetable and making best of your remaining life. She gets her revenge on Gortash and now can spend her last moments with you (or whoever she romanced if you're not playing Tav) and it's beautiful, why would you want to dimnish the narration with some last second miracle or whatever? That would take away the impact of the story and cheapen it What we want is to be able to affect what happens to Karlach. As it stands, you can't. The only choices that truly matter for her story are at the pier -- the very end. Karlach's questline is incredibly short when compared to the other origin characters -- two fetch quests and a boss fight that you need to do anyway. Meanwhile, the others get entire zones, dedicated bosses, and decently long questlines. As for her revenge, her speech right after killing Gortash spells out how empty that vengeance was for her. She is at her lowest point at that moment, having realized it's all hopeless, and killing him did nothing. Her last meaningful moment with you after that is her burning up at the pier. That's not beautiful, it's horrifying. She's seconds away from bursting into flame, and you have to decide if you let her die or if she goes back to the place she so desperately wanted to escape. Even if you believe that her story is about acceptance, that's not what you do most of the time. You spend most of your time with her hunting for a solution, rather than living it out. Karlach herself doesn't come to terms with her situation until after confronting Gortash. Stories about acceptance like the Fault in Our Stars don't waste time hoping for a solution, they give the characters closure and quality time with each other before they meet their end. We barely have any quality time with Karlach and any semblance of closure by killing Gortash is rendered meaningless because it changed nothing. What truly cheapens her story is that it's a tragedy that's forced upon us. We're not even allowed to try and fail to help her. We just watch from the sidelines. Isn't this game supposed to be about choices and weaving your own fate? Where is that for Karlach? The bigger problem, however, is that none of what's happening to her is believable in a DnD setting. You have to go out of your way to stop any potential solutions from being available. What's the point of the Gondians, the enriched infernal iron, all the magic, gods, and demons? You're not allowed to pursue any of them. How Gale was saved was quite literally an act of god, yet his story wasn't cheapened because of it. Given how lacking Karlach's content is, it will take more than one patch for her to even feel like an origin character, rather than a secondary recruit. She and Wyll got the short end of the stick. Except you can change her fate and you can convince her to keep fighting, hell, there's entire cutscene at the end added specifically because players requested it, how do you want even more than that? And we have quite plenty of quality time with Karlach across the acts, obviously it could be more but this is rpg not dating simulator. I can agree that her questline is a bit shorter than some companions but it's still great and nicely ties to the main story with Gortash, makes her feel like a main character, other companions don't have that. As for solutions, well, Dammon tried and failed, we didn't find anything useful with Gortash so yeah, we're kinda out of options. Obviously you can try some gymnastics with DnD mechanics, but with ridiculous options the game offers it would be horrible for the narration because basically everything could be solved with Wish, some divine intervention or whatever so i'm happy Larian sticked to their story. It's a bit similar to the Cyberpunk story, we try many different solutions and fail, that doesn't mean the story isn't rewarding or great. I also don't know why people bring up Wyll constantly, his story is also great so I don't know what more you'd like for him, Halsin for example doesn't have his own dungeon but is still good character Dammon didn't try, gondians didn't try, Mizora didn't try, Raphael didn't try and so on. Yet again and again and again. This whole thread is about the possibility of fixing her, which was in the game but was removed gods know why. In every corner in act 3 there is a clue, that you will fix her, but you cannot, because the game doesn't allow you to try it. And I don't talk about some dnd resurrection scrolls and similar, but about valid possibilities already implemented in the game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bard of Suzail
|
|
Bard of Suzail
Joined: Oct 2020
|
I get the possibilities brought forth for a potentially different ending. As for the way they were not implemented, who knows. It is easy to sit and the cheap seats and arm chair quarterback decisions made for plot line of game development after the devs have put in a ton of work.
I for one however LOVE the storyline they have in place for Karlach. It is not the all the world will be great ending for sure. However at the end when Wyll and I let her know she will never be alone. When three close friends head forth, not to sit around in leisure bit to tackle another adventure together, that to me was almost a tear jerk ending. Then when she smiles and pulls out those cigars, I was laughing and crying all at the same time. That smile and attitude did me in and then we are off to deal with what comes next.
That to me was an amazing ending to her story and fitting for her, a chance to be a warrior on a noble mission of visiting a little payback on those that deserved it. Never alone, always with friends and loved ones.
The cigar moment to me was amazing, I enjoy weekly a night out with my best friend having a cigar and a glass of brandy. Those moments to real comradery are so rare in our world today so that scene did me in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2023
|
I like the cigar ending on Avernus as well, but I honestly would not have if I romanced her, so I understand the frustration from people. I send Wyll with her and it's all good, I'm happy for them, since neither have as much to look forward to on Faerun anyway (unless I romance Wyll, then there's really no positive outcome). But every other origin companion has the possibility to have a 'settle down together' ending. Giving one of those to Karlach doesn't mean they need to remove the Avernus ending, it would just give people the choice to do otherwise.
|
|
|
|
|
