Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Interesting. We have very different attitudes on coercion. I'm imaging real life me waking up with, I dunno, denge fever, being forced to drive to the hospital AND THEN finding out that the person I gave a ride to the hospital infected me so they could hitch a ride. I imagine I would awfully angry. I wouldn't consider acting against them any form 'betrayal' no matter how nice they were on drive there. Any kind words would pale in comparison to their actions.

True, I understand if people hate him for that - but we don't know 100% that this was him. And Durge was tadpoled before, this is not on him.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Again on coercion - you are right to say that the emperor does not force you take the tadpole but this is clearly coercive, right? Giving someone something that forces them to survive a will check or become infected? It's a bit like a dealer persuading someone to try something once, then getting them addicted and then handing them a free sample once they've kicked the habit. Perhaps not force but a level of coercion that butts right up against boundaries of "force".

Also, if you are aggressive it does threaten to force you. No, it doesn't follow through but there is no mistaking the threat.

The thing is - he asks you to use the powers to be stronger because he thinks you might be to weak. This is why he asks you to get allies too. And he is right - the powers make you stronger. And in the end it doesn't matter, you are healed from the tadpole. So why not use it? But of course we don't know this before - I even wonder if the Emperor could now it. I think (but this is just my opinion of course) that he thinks there is no cure and we are about to transform anyway so could use tadpoles to be stronger and it wouldn't change anything.

He is certainly disappointed if you don't use the astral tadpole. He wants us to be stronger and if we end up as mind flayer he is acutally happy and calls us the "best ally he could have wished for".

He does threaten us if it doesn't work that we trust him. If we don't trust him, he can't trust us and then he resorts to the only thing he has left - he makes it clear that he will do what ever is necessary to get the mission (destroy the brain) done. He wants his freedom but that aligns with our goal and basically with saving the world, so I think we could use better dialog options here too, like telling him that he will work with him because we need to destroy the brain but we are still not trusting him.

But he does not force you, not even if you free Orpheus (which I find strange actually).


Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Do you find the dream vision I linked to be truthful? Are they seeking to be free of his parasite? Is it right when tells us that Orpheus will attack us once freed? Was it being honest when it told us there was nothing of value in Ansur's lair? As you've said it misrepresented the relationship with Stelmane.

Don't think striking back at monster that likely infected you, lied to you and manipulated you can accurately be described as a betrayal. I also think that's a deeply flawed scene that only makes game logic - "oh you aren't going to kill the Lae'zel and the Gith that trusted you? Well say hello to the backup boss! I'm not going hide on another plane, I'm not going to run to the far reaches of the realms I'm going to become a slave again. Because: thing.

Yes, I find the dream guardian to be truthful, just not in his form (as I said, it is clear that this is not the true form). And it fits to what the Emperor says in the game later too - his one goal is freedom (and being alive). Not free of the tadpole but enslavement by the elder brain. And I believe him when he says Orpheus will kill him - he is a mind flayer, Orpheus and his honor guard are gith. They hate mind flayers, they were enslaved by them a long time ago. They would kill them on sight. It is even required for a gith to kill a mind flayer to get a certain status and recognition (Lae'zel talks about that). And on top of that he uses Orpheus power to protect himself and us, basically using him. And Orpheus honor guard attacks us too and even says that we reek of Illithid. And after the fight after the reveal of the Emperor you can ask him what would happen if we would free Orpheus and we will tell you that Orpheus would kill him and us (because with tadpole we are alreay mind flayer to them). And we know from the creche quest that gith cure infected by killing them. And the narrator even says that we can feel Orpheus hate for us. So yes, I totally believe the Emperor when he says Orpheus will kill him and likely us. He can't know that Orpheus can indeed be persuaded.

But I think they need to remove that he just leaves. Either he can be persuaded (with a high DC and maybe only if we have been trustworthy) to work with Orpheus (and Orpheus needs to be persuaded too) or at least he could fight us (although I don't think he has a chance against the full group) or he could at least be persuaded to stay and see what happens - if we have to kill Orpheus because he tries to kill the Emperor he can still eat his brain. Of course if Orpheus drop his protection of us when he is attacked we will all turn to thralls, so game over I guess. But if the Emperor joins the brain he is enslaved anyway so no difference.

And yes, he tells you that there is nothing to be found in Ansurs lair, that the wyrm is dead and that is true from his point of view. He is surprised too that Ansurs ghost is still there. Or did you mean his greatsword as treasure or his helmet? I think for him it is just a waste of time and you have the trials that might hurt you. So I don't see anything wrong with that.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Yes, you are right. I think people resent not having their choices matter. In WOTR you have the choice to work with evil mastermind who manipulates you to bring the hammer of justice down on their head. But because the goal of the good Tav is avoid becoming an evil, soulless monster and save the city at the same time the need to have a mind flayer makes your victory feel like a defeat. And the metaphysics doesn't really satisfy. If Orpheus' mom had the power to bring down an entire empire with swarms of elder brains on its side then Orpheus can disrupt the Netherbrain.

As I wrote before, mind flayers are not soulless and not necessary evil. I don't feel defeat that we have to use a mind flayer - we can use the Emperor who is actually quite reasonable and not like the other mind flayers who are under the brains control only interested in making everyone a slave. The Emperor is not like them. I think the most good ending would be to have both the Emperor and Orpheus.


Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Yes. But someone needs to transform -- you need to destroy the soul of either Orpheus or Karlach even if you have Gale in your party. I tried multiple options - Karlach, Orpheus, Tav + suicide. None of them felt good. I left the game thinking "well that sucked" (despite enjoying much of the game - the ending wasn't fun)

You can use the Emperor then no one else has to transform. If you go with Orpheus there is a way to not have someone transform and using Gale as bomb. But it is tricky, you have to ask the Emperor for the tadpole to transform but then change your mind and free Orpheus anyway. There are more steps, I have found it on reddit and can ask someone if you like to know and don't find it. But yes, it is not something you naturally stumble upon.

In my ending I did not have to kill Lae'zel, I know if you have her with you you can persuade her to be ok with killing Orpheus. I didn't have her with me and so it wasn't a problem either. I could persuade her to stay with me at the end and she was content with that, not following Orpheus or Vlaakith but just her own will.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Yes. But the true goal of the Knights is to corrupt the leaders of Faerun and by making Stelmane a thrall The Emperor was serving the devil inside the shield. And we know from the tunnels after the morphic pool that the Knights were smugglers and thieves - like the Zents and Guild.

It would be like the Penguin saying that he was doing good work for Gotham by cannibalizing members of the Joker's gang. (as well as the members of his gang that were slated for execution anyway) And I don't believe The Emperor - they've been dishonest in all their dealings with Tav thus far. I think it was eating its own criminals, The Emperor was ranching humans.

I wrote it in my other post - we have no information (that I am aware of) about devil worshipping of the knights or the Emperor. And how he talks about Raphael and devils I highly doubt he would worship one. This devil worshipping is from outside the game source I think and I don't know if Larian kept it in the game. Doesn't look like it so I wouldn't put it against the Emperor. Same with the "true goal". Nothing in game that I am aware of (and I try to read everything I find) confirms this. They were a criminal organisation, they even have an assassination list, that much is sure.

There is a book in game that confirms that the Emperor eats criminals - convicted it seems as it was described the person he ate was wearing prisoner clothing. And here I disagree - I don't think the Emperor was always dishonest. He was trying to make us trust him and hiding his true form but that doesn't mean everything he said was a lie or that he was always dishonest. He tells us he is like us (he was an adventurer before and it has a double meaning because we are like him (at least part) Illithid), that he wants to be free, that the tadpole is not an usual one, that it can't be removed without killing us, that we find answers in moonrise towers, that the Gith should not get the artifact, that he prevents us from turning into a mind flayer and become a thrall.... that is all true.

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I accept Omeluum as an exception to the rule but not The Emperor - Omeluum doesn't have any thralls, isn't dominating others, isn't manipulating others and hasn't established a brain ranching system. If Blurg hadn't called on him it would have been content to study mushroom samples in some lab somewhere.

smile And that his "join the Netherbrain" makes little sense. And the forced nature of the "you must have a mind flayer" with you. And it's just a boring boss battle. Auntie Ethel and Raphel are so much better. The battles were more interesting and I felt like a hero at the end. I saved the innocent both of whom become something more than damsel in distress in the end.

I'm glad you enjoyed it but you also kill Lae'zel and the Gith that trusted you. You let an evil mind flayer with plans to restablish the BG branch of a criminal organization controlled by a devil go free.

Omeluum is different but as the Emperor says (and what is true about every human as well) - there are different ones. Omeluum and the Emperor are both renegades and special but different.

No I didn't had to kill Lae'zel as I wrote above. The Devil thing is not in game and we don't know if Larian kept it so no issue for me. I don't think the Emperor is evil though, not good either actually but compare him to Gortash and Orin and tell me he is like them? As you said, the guild and Zhentarim are criminals too and the guild still cares about the city and helps fight for it. Baldurs gate is corrupt, but that doesn't mean the Knights were actually harming the city - as I said, in game book says no nefarious intent could be found.

Ok that is game play reason to not like the Emperor - I did not fight him and still found the end battle nice with the time limit and the dominated dragon and saving the world at the end.


Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Because he is out to destroy a soul devouring lich on verge of godhood. Imagine how much destruction the Gith could do if they had a god on their side and not just an uber-lich. And because Lae'zel trusted you and helped you when you needed it most.

On the lesser evil - the kid in the Creche tells us that Orpheus teaches compassion.

To be honest I don't really care about Lae'zel. I even had to make sure I don't get her killed in the beginning because I won't turn against the tieflings and are not watching her fighting against them. And from my characters point of view I don't even get the hammer because we can still get it later and free Orpheus. When did Lae'zel helped me when I needed it most? Depending on how you play but I had her barely with me and she even tried to kill me before. So basically I don't trust Lae'zel too much.

Also stupid that we can't just resurrect Orpheus.

I guess his compassion ends if you have a tadpole in your head but are not turned yet. Because he will not save you as the game shows us.


I agree that they need to flesh Orpheus out more and it would be good to have an alternative to the Emperor earlier. They praise all the different paths but with the Emperor players are kind of railroaded, that is true. I wouldn't even mind to have Orpheus as romance option.... they also need to rework if you play as gith, from what I heard it really feels like you barely are recognized, only Lae'zel. That is disappointing.

So I think we actually agree a lot but interpret the Emperor differently. Maybe I am biased because I really liked my dream guardian (that voice is amazing) and like the Emperor too. I see his flaws however and understand if people don't like him because of his actions. I just think some things are open to interpretation and it isn't necessarily always meant to be evil and manipulative - there is also room for him to show genuine feelings and care if you interpret it that way and there is also room for these different views.

Sorry if I won't answer directly on new postings from you, I have very little free time due to real life and need some time to play the game too - but I will be back smile

Last edited by Cawyden; 21/10/23 08:46 AM.