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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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First of all: nobody actually insulted the guy, unless you wanna count in " goofy opinions" etc as insults, if so, then this forum is doomed ngl.
Second, before you wanna tell us how to act in here, why not take that moderator to the chest and tell him to stop steering sh*t in here, he is literally ONLY arguing against any idea of karlach getting a good ending, threatens to close a thread over non-existing insults. (btw he also spreads misinformations about the game, so its either he didnt even play it or just didnt pay attention to the story)
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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Folks, please do not derail this thread by further discussion about moderator intervention. I’d recommend getting back on topic, while bearing in mind what Zentu actually asked, which was for folk to calm down and avoid insults and provoking arguments.
EDIT: And I’ve just seen the post from Drakaah, which was published while I was typing the above. They will now be taking a break, as will anyone else who continues to argue with moderators in thread, and especially if they also make unfounded and heated accusations of bad faith about members of our moderation team. And I would strongly suggest that anyone who doesn’t want this thread locked should get back on topic immediately. It’s doing it absolutely no favours to respond in this fashion to Zentu’s request to be civil, avoid insults and not to provoke arguments. If folk had merely done as asked, the thread would now be in no danger of being locked. But continuing to argue about moderation here will quickly increase the likelihood of that outcome.
I would also remind everyone that we moderators are fans of the game and entitled to have and express our views on it here, like any other forum member. That is entirely separate from our role as moderators.
Last edited by The Red Queen; 20/10/23 06:41 PM.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Fixing the game does not equal adding new content lol. Once there is little to no bugs they have no reason to waste more of their resources on a game thats already massive success, the obvious move is to move on to the new project just like Sven already did No studio operates like this. Imagine if CDPR just took their Witcher money and didn't release any DLCs or Capcom didn't release expansions for Monster Hunter. When you have something good going, you keep it going. Swen himself said they weren't done with BG3. He wasn't talking about bug fixes. You didn't answer a single one of my questions. Why bring back VAs for epilogues that no one apparently needs? They just need to fix the Minthara bugs, so why bring the VA back for any new lines? Why would Swen say they'll consider DLCs? He could've just said no. The reality is that Larian isn't done with BG3, and they'll almost certainly release a definitive edition. That entails a bunch of new content to sell to a new player base.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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These forums are a clown show lol
lmao
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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@the red queen
hi, dont want to disturb for long, but i have one question: how exactly can i report a moderator? because i think i saw some cases od mod abuse.
thank you very much for your asnwer
oh by the way, karlach is my favourite companion and i think she does deserve a good ending.
Last edited by Blook88; 20/10/23 06:56 PM.
#JusticeForKarlach!
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2023
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Keep your copium in high doses then, and in a moment of clarity please tell me why would they waste time and resources if 99% is more than happy with the game as it is? I'll kindly ask you to read my post again, if your post was a response to it. Sadly, I am well aware of the fact that Larian might not give a single damn about our request, and for that very reason I chose if instead of when. These forums are a clown show lol
lmao Seriously, let's not piss moderators off. The run it's course sentiment was a heavily biased take, but I guess we'll have to suck it up. It's not like we've won the fancy of either moderator. I want this thread to live long enough to happily break the 100 pages mark! We probably won't get Karlach a decent heart by then, but at least it'll be a big chungus testament that we're really pissed about it. By the way,
let me toss a suggestion for an ending which has been sitting in my mind for the past few days. The whole Karlach thing with having happy and sad moments, it adds an emotional value to the story and, no matter how much it hurts, I like it. Now, all of this would feel cheap if mid-game a heart fix is added (a man can hope), so how about merely making Dammon barge into the epilogue scene as Karlach is about to combust with a perfectly good, Material Plane-friendly heart? Also, of course, for those who prefer current endings, leave them as fail states if you don't collect regular and enhanced infernal iron bits and deliver them to Dammon.
Last edited by SynnLee; 20/10/23 07:09 PM. Reason: Once I read my message prettily formatted, I saw some improvements to flow, so here they go.
Erm, given that I've made this account for this purpose primarily... #JusticeForKarlach!
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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how exactly can i report a moderator? As I mentioned in one of my posts above, you are welcome to PM any of us, or if you use the “report post” functionality then your message will go to all moderators. If that doesn’t resolve your issue, you can also contact Larian support at the email address on their website as we’re ultimately accountable to them. And definitely don’t do what TwistedComplex has done, as they’re now also taking a break.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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The forums are better than most other. Steam is a troll's paradise and the mods on Reddit delete any posts critical of the game. Hell, I got banned from the Beamdog forums for saying the mods were wrong to ban the person who ran their roleplaying sub forum.
The mods here were forum participants before they became mods and some of them are willing to privately discuss mod policy. Are there some mods that are too quick with the ban hammer? Yes. But I don't see those coming around often. Most are decent humanoids.
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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Seriously, let's not piss moderators off. The run it's course sentiment was a heavily biased take, but I guess we have to suck it up. The first sentence there was spot on. The bit that follows is less well-advised at it looks like taking yet another dig at Zentu, despite my requests. It’s very easy to keep this thread open. Just get back on topic and talk about Karlach in a civil fashion, don’t provoke or rise to provocation, and respect the rights of all forum members to hold and express opinions other than your own. If that’s what’s going on here, I and the other mods will have no reason to intervene. But please don’t make me come over here again!
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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I'm posting this because Reddit user redgoesfaster really brought a point in Nom's post on there:
"Mizora tells wyll if he chooses freedom his father dies - we still save his father after he chooses freedom
The emperor says we cannot free Orpheus because he will kill us - Orpheus does not kill us after we free him and is actually pretty chill
Ethel says we cannot save the child if we kill her - we kill her and save the child
Orin says she will kill our party member if we don't kill Gortash and hurry to her - we spend several weeks at a circus with an angry djinn and still save our companion without fighting Gortash
Mystra/Elminster AND Gale say Gale has to sacrifice himself to destroy the elder brain - we destroy the elder brain with Gale very much in tact
Omeluum says we can't save him and have to go for Ravengard - we save him and Ravengard (he even has a great ability making saving Ravengard easier)
Florrick insists all hope is lost and she has to die in her cell - we very easily convince her she's wrong and rescue her
There are a plethora of times through the game we are told something and prove it to be false. The fact that all the "Karlach's ending makes sense" stans parade what Dammon says (again a self defined APPRENTICE infernal smith) as absolute fact is such a silly hill to die on lol. That's not even going into the 5000 ways in dnd canon that we could save her. The fact is Karlach's ending just doesn't make sense, they could make it make sense and still insist on their shoehorned tragedy because angst=good story telling. But instead they lock it behind "one guy said this is how it have to be so this is how it have to be"."
Now add to this that said apprentice infernal smith later in Act 3 figures out a way to do it, to fix it, lines recorded and all but never made it into the released game - most likely because whatever we'd need for him to help her was actually in either Upper City or Avernus cut content - and you realise that this "we cannot fix her/can't fix her outside of Avernus" is very much bs also.
It's an active choice by Larian devs to pluck that out for whatever reason and it's the most jarring thing there is. Simply because we can do the opposite of what we're told we can, if we try hard enough. The devs said themselves, if players have a thought as to how to solve something and it's unconventional (see, crate stacking your way to 10th floor), it will still exist in the game.
Karlach's no engine fix is, once again, pure bullshit and an active dev choice to cut something that should have been there. For whatever (stupid Imho) opinion. I'm just gunna quote this because in the middle of all the derailing y'all seemed to miss a rather thoughtful comment that stayed on topic. Personally I feel like it really goes to show how most of the game followed through with the general idea that yes, just as in DnD, we should be able to affect most of the choices in our story and campaign - which is why Karlach's quest or the lack thereof, and the illusion of a multi-part story where we can actually succeed in the very end, feels so jarring. It's like sore thumb in an overall fantastic game with an enormous tree branching of choice and consequence, flowcharts and hooking onto nodes from previous dialogues and events. Karlach's story has a nice part one, poignant part two, then it just falls flat and throws itself off the cliff with a really well-done pain meeting grief meeting acceptance speech after Gortash. But what was supposed to follow was a finale that never happened, we are told to accept that we did everything but we never got there. It's like getting a story with a proper buildup, coming to a climax and....falling really, really flat. No execution, just emotional edging and never coming to a finish line. This very much explains why so many of us are here, why so many keep posting feedback on other social platforms. This is what we need to focus on. If you wanna talk about mods, PM a respected mod and explain the situation. Have beef with anyone in the thread, take it to their PMs or message a mod. Leave this place clean!
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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how exactly can i report a moderator? As I mentioned in one of my posts above, you are welcome to PM any of us, or if you use the “report post” functionality then your message will go to all moderators. If that doesn’t resolve your issue, you can also contact Larian support at the email address on their website as we’re ultimately accountable to them. And definitely don’t do what TwistedComplex has done, as they’re now also taking a break. thank you very much for your awnser. just sent my report.
Last edited by Blook88; 20/10/23 08:43 PM.
#JusticeForKarlach!
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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By the way,
let me toss a suggestion for an ending which has been sitting in my mind for the past few days. The whole Karlach thing with having happy and sad moments, it adds an emotional value to the story and, no matter how much it hurts, I like it. Now, all of this would feel cheap if mid-game a heart fix is added (a man can hope), so how about merely making Dammon barge into the epilogue scene as Karlach is about to combust with a perfectly good, Material Plane-friendly heart? Also, of course, for those who prefer current endings, leave them as fail states if you don't collect regular and enhanced infernal iron bits and deliver them to Dammon.
I dunno, ideally it sounds nice but I don't think i'd like to do more fetch quests because another issue with Karlach is having to do 2 fetch quests. Having to farm iron for her (and there's a ton in the game) seems a bit too much and doesn't fit with Larian's writing. Unless we loot this big watcher in the foundry, the final boss... or even talk to gondians. I think suggesting that maybe keeping all the Gondians alive and I mean all of them, being mandatory in giving Karlach her good ending? We let them know of Karlach's situation, we introduce them to Dammon, they both work together. I don't know, i'm just disappointed with her barebones questline compared to the rest of origin companions.
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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Oh wow thanks for quoting this post because apparently I missed it somehow with all the stuff that happened, jesus. It's a very interesting read indeed. Makes you really think why was Karlach the only unfortunate one.
It just doesn't add up.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2023
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It's been said before, but it's worth remembering the hints are all there that it could be sorted. You get told Karlach's engine is an old prototype version of the Steel Watcher one, hinting at the idea that Gortash gave Karlach to Zariel to obtain it (don't shoot me if this is false, never figured out the reason otherwise). You have the Gondians who worked on Steel Watchers for gods knows how long, presumably ever since Karlach was sold to Zariel, and thus worked on the same engine Karlach has but just a more advanced version. These Steel Watchers drop Enriched Infernal Iron which has absolutely no purpose in the game right now but is evidently used to maintain the advanced Steel Watcher engine. You have Dammon who has experience working with Infernal Iron and has helped her twice before. You can have the Ironhand Gnomes work together with the Gondians. But instead the Ironhand Gnomes never make mention of it, the Gondians say it's too old and Dammon says he can't figure anything out. Just have all of them work together and they should be able to fix it. Oh wow thanks for quoting this post because apparently I missed it somehow with all the stuff that happened, jesus. It's a very interesting read indeed. Makes you really think why was Karlach the only unfortunate one.
It just doesn't add up. I mean, until Shadowheart gets to save her parents without living in eternal torment, or until Astarion gets to stop burning in the sun without losing his soul, I wouldn't say it should be a purely fortunate ending, but there should be something where they can fix her up to the point where it isn't just "Avernus or bust". Just some kind of "it'll remain stable for now but it won't stop hurting outside of Avernus" state. So you still have to make a somewhat meaningful choice of going there; pain or Avernus, rather than death or Avernus.
Last edited by Michieltjuhh; 20/10/23 09:20 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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There should definitely be some sort of payoff for the fix, for sure. I don't expect the devs to sell a perfect happy ending for her because that will just create an outrage with the other Origin's fans. However, just like I chose to save Sharts parents at the cost of her never getting rid of that pain, and picking Astarion's well-being over the fact that he won't be able to stand in the sun again, I would definitely choose a less powerful Karlach or even forcefully retired Karlach (who wanted to go on adventures in Faerûn after the events of BG3, mind), over a dead Karlach or Karlach back in hell. Endings and Origins discussion below: The only one that really gets out without much of a fallout is Gale when he brings the crown to Mystra. Though I don't know for myself just yet how Mystra taking him back under her wing affects his relationship with Tav (given Mystra's grooming tendencies and Gale's deep connection to her). Lae'zel staying with Tav feels good for the romance part, but comes at the cost of her greatest wish - to become Kith'rak and ride a red dragon and wield a silver sword, now as the liberator of her people and strongest Githyanki alive. So that's a 50/50 choice, much like Shadowheart's parents and pain vs no parents and no pain but deep regrets instead. Astarion is much more evil vs good coded, but what's interesting is that his story never takes him to free himself from vampirism. If that were the case, I feel like curing him and leaving Karlach to die would've made an even greater earthquake re: what's fixable or not with a fantasy realm at hand. Wyll has a solid set of choices Imo, the only part lacking is that his story is so light in content especially in Act 2, which on one hand isn't weird given Shart and the shadow curse take the scene, but I still feel like his story could've used some more meat on those bones.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2023
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Endings and Origins discussion below: The only one that really gets out without much of a fallout is Gale when he brings the crown to Mystra. Though I don't know for myself just yet how Mystra taking him back under her wing affects his relationship with Tav (given Mystra's grooming tendencies and Gale's deep connection to her). Lae'zel staying with Tav feels good for the romance part, but comes at the cost of her greatest wish - to become Kith'rak and ride a red dragon and wield a silver sword, now as the liberator of her people and strongest Githyanki alive. So that's a 50/50 choice, much like Shadowheart's parents and pain vs no parents and no pain but deep regrets instead. Astarion is much more evil vs good coded, but what's interesting is that his story never takes him to free himself from vampirism. If that were the case, I feel like curing him and leaving Karlach to die would've made an even greater earthquake re: what's fixable or not with a fantasy realm at hand. Wyll has a solid set of choices Imo, the only part lacking is that his story is so light in content especially in Act 2, which on one hand isn't weird given Shart and the shadow curse take the scene, but I still feel like his story could've used some more meat on those bones. Some Durge spoilers in addition to origin ending spoilers: Made a post here a good 30 pages ago here regarding this.
Based on origin Gale ending, Mystra will leave him to be with whoever he romanced, so she'll likely leave him with Tav too.
Wyll just needs more content overall, only act 3 is somewhat fine but even then the Emperor steals the show when it was meant to be Wyll's big moment. He also lacks the ability to make the choice himself; we just tell him what to do. Mizora won't stop hunting his dad so he'll presumably die eventually.
Lae'zel will not stop being hunted if she stays, and as it stands only Githyanki Tav gets to go with her if she leaves.
I don't see Shadowheart mentally recovering without Tav romance to fully support her if she lets her parents go. And judging by how she described Shar's pain after the Shadowfell I don't think letting them live is great either unless Shar just kinda stops caring which, judging by how she is, is possible.
If Astarion got an ending better than his current then there would be massive outrage, considering he's already got the most focus out of all origin companions (especially on the romance front). I don't think the conclusions are bad, even if the epilogue portayal of it is miserable (at least he gets one though, poor Shadowheart, lol).
Karlach could easily be in there where she can get fixed without going to Avernus but just has some kind of impactful negative effect. Impactful enough to make the choice to Avernus still an option, but not as silly as it is now where it really isn't an actual option because death is (almost) always worse.
The one that bothers me most is Dark Urge getting a perfect ending, really. How convenient that Bhaal killed the one aspect of you that was bothering you. The worst implication of the outcome is that you might be some sort of Withers' Chosen now, but I don't even see that as being bad considering how chill Withers is, plus he goes back to bed in the epilogue anyway.
Last edited by Michieltjuhh; 20/10/23 09:52 PM.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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By the way,
let me toss a suggestion for an ending which has been sitting in my mind for the past few days. The whole Karlach thing with having happy and sad moments, it adds an emotional value to the story and, no matter how much it hurts, I like it. Now, all of this would feel cheap if mid-game a heart fix is added (a man can hope), so how about merely making Dammon barge into the epilogue scene as Karlach is about to combust with a perfectly good, Material Plane-friendly heart? Also, of course, for those who prefer current endings, leave them as fail states if you don't collect regular and enhanced infernal iron bits and deliver them to Dammon.
There is no real way to keep the impact of the emotional lows while also fixing her engine. We'll have to sacrifice some of that to achieve a more hopeful ending with some actual agency. The movie Stranger Than Fiction perfectly encapsulates this dilemma. Spoilers about the movie (WARNING: very long post): In that movie, Will Farrell plays an IRS auditor who realizes that he's the main character of a draft novel penned by Emma Thompson who plays an author known for her tragic endings. His struggle is to find and convince her that his life is worth more than a masterful conclusion. Will Farrel starts off as a punctual, apathetic loner who grows into an empathetic and spontaneous man. After he fell in love with a kind-hearted anarchist, Will learned to love life and the people around him. Even the annoying ones. But alas, Will isn't supposed to get a happily ever after. He is supposed to die saving a little boy from an oncoming vehicle. That ultimate act of selflessness will bring his character arc to a satisfying conclusion. In the end, he does save the boy. But he survives thanks to shrapnel from his trusty wristwatch, which blocked a vital artery from bleeding out. Emma had changed the ending. But why? As literature professor Dustin Hoffman says to Emma in the final bits of the movie, that new ending's all right, but it doesn't fit with the rest of the book. She says she'll get more time to rework it. But why change it at all? She says it's because she couldn't do it. He asks if this is because he's real, and Emma says no. She explains to Dustin that the original novel was about a man who didn't know he was supposed to die and had no say in what happened to him. But that changes when he learns of his fate. Now that he knows how it all ends and yet still struggles against it, then... "Isn't that the type of man you want to keep alive?" That's the question everyone should ask each time they decide a character's fate. The movie ends with Will in the hospital, all bandaged up. The doctor explains to him with sarcastic bemusement how he miraculously survived thanks to the piece of wristwatch now embedded in him. Even the doc knows how hackneyed this is: A glimpse of that wristwatch is how the movie started and it's what saved him. Cliche af. But it's worth it because he's worth it. His girlfriend soon comes to visit him, bringing Bavarian Sugar Cookies for him. Then the narrator whom he constantly heard in his head throughout the movie finishes up with this: "As Harold [Will] took a bite of Bavarian Sugar Cookie, he finally felt as if everything was going to be okay. Sometimes, when we lose ourselves in
fear and despair, in routine and
constancy, in hopelessness and
tragedy ... there are Bavarian Sugar
cookies.And, fortunately, when there aren't any cookies we can still find reassurance in a familiar hand on our skin ..." We then flash back to consecutive scenes of Will having touched other people's lives as the narrator lists other things that save us: "A kind and loving gesture ... Or a subtle encouragement ... Or a loving embrace ... Or an offer of comfort. Not to mention hospital gurneys ... And nose plugs ... And uneaten Danish ... And soft-spoken secrets ... And Fender Stratocasters ... And maybe, the occasional piece of fiction. And we must remember that all these
things, the nuances, the anomalies,
the subtleties which we assume only
accessorize our days, are in fact
here for a much larger and nobler
cause.
They are here to save our lives.I know the idea seems strange. But I also know that it just so happens to be true. And so it was ... a wristwatch saved Harold Crick." It is an implausible, cliched ending that you'll find on any cheesy Hallmark flick. But you know what? Tragedy is also cheesy these days, and sometimes hope is the better cheese. So why should Karlach live? Because she's suffered enough? Because she deserves better? No. Because she's the type of woman you want to keep alive. Yet you're not allowed to, and therein lies the problem. In a game like this, it should be possible. But it's not. And as for the emotional gravity of her tragic ending... well, who's to say that an uplifting speech by her after all that struggle wouldn't hit you harder than the hopeless one?
Last edited by Walking Kole; 20/10/23 11:02 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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I think that having the fix post gortash fight (having it act as a final flag to progress whatever) might work perfectly well, as the speech back at camp gives you several prompts already to bust out some "what the fuck, we can still try to fix you", I don't even think it would diminish the impact that much tbh, to me it would make perfect sense to have it there time-line wise.
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
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They can't even properly finish the endings that are already in the game and you're talking about dlc? I was very hopeful, now it's time to accept the reality
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
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So what they brought VA's back? It was before the patch 2 so what does it change? And with literally thousands of endings availavble how to you expect them to make a dlc? Or maybe they should add some side story, like phantom liberty from cyberpunk but instead of getting screwed it would allow us to somehow fix Karlach?
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