It is a good idea to keep the posts rather short and have several instead - at least for me it is easier to answer then when I have a little time. So I guess back to spoiler tags?

Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
Thanks for the kind words. I'm also enjoying the conversation smile Because this is long and you don't have time to reply I'll respond in more than one post. Two, brief, notes (for now)

Knights of Shield

The Emperor isn't a devil worshiper - it's more like Krolla. The secret lord of the shield is a devil who is seeking to become a god with the portfolio of corruption. Gargauth doesn't really care about the things that the Knights care about - getting rich, gaining new lands and aristocratic titles - he cares about corrupting the governments of Faerun. So while the members of the Knights have the same aims as the members of the Zents and Guild the true aim of the Knights is political corruption just as the Zents were once concerned with spreading Bane's tyranny.

By corrupting Stelmane he is advancing the cause of Gargauth and helping him move from demi god to god.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Gargauth

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Knights_of_the_Shield

Thank you! That is interesting but as I said - we don't get any information (that I found at least) in game for it. So at this point it could be still true but we don't know if Larian went with this route or changed it. But in any case I don't think the Emperor is aware of it (it says in the wiki that the highest lord knows about it but most of the others don't) and if he is,
I don't think he would do anything to empower a devil.
He is aware how dangerous that would be (see his comments about Raphael). So I really wouldn't hold that against him.

You could also say that taking over the knights by enthralling the (possibly devil worshipping) Duke might have steered the order away from their original goal and allowed him to do something better for his city. It doesn't look like was interested in riches but to have influence over the city. And in the ending he says "his city" so it seems he as a certain attachment to the city.


Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
"seek to free of it"

I think had already responded to that with my 'lawyerly' comment earlier but, again, that's a very lawyerly reading and one I think any fair judge would rule against. In that sentence "IT" clearly refers to the tadpole. And, at best, it's a half truth.

I think if you find such sentence construction truthful you have to likewise conclude that Mizora was telling the Wyll the truth about Karlach. Karlach is indeed heartless

I'll say more on this later but as I reconstruct the emperor's evil plan it was: take over the nautaloid, grab some humanoids to infect, get them to become half illithid or full mind flayer and use those transformed humanoids to take down the elder brain.

In a guess about the original plot - where tadpole abuse made you a true soul - it was best make the emperor's lanceboard pawns into half illithids because full mind flayers and thralls are easily controlled by elder brains. The emperor would lose the tug of war for control of the puppets. Also, full mind flayers have a difficult time infiltrating human cities.

When the ship crashed the plan altered and the plan became - manipulate the few pawns it has left.

( I can't figure out how Shar was involved - hopefully the authors will tell us one day)

Yes, the IT definitely means the tadpole as he was talking about that just a sentence before. That much is clear. Still, there is a difference to Mizora/Karlach. Mizora is technically right that Karlach has no heart but because of that either Wyll is punished or Karlach has to die while with the guardian it doesn't really matter. He could have said, "Like you I seek to get my freedom back and not become a thrall to the Absolute" and it would change nothing - aside from you not being able to find some dishonesty in this line.

What he means of course is not the tadpole but the enslavement by the elder brain. He does sees you already as (part) Illithid and says so later - he is just a little further in his evolution process. So I see that this sounds like a lie (and technically is) but for him I think isn't really, as tadpole just means enslavement and this true for both him and you. I also personally don't mind as he was hiding his identity and so while he could have avoided it by choosing a different way to say it, it doesn't really change what he meant for me - he wants freedom, so do I.

It is possible that he believes or knows a cure is indeed possible - the ceremorphosis process is stopped by him / Orpheus powers and we see in the end that the brain can be commanded to kill the tadpole. Meaning even if he was tadpoling us (but we don't know 100% if that was him) and asks us to use the tadpoles and their powers he might know that we can be cured later, so no actually harm is done. But he does prefer us as Illithid / part Illithid at least because we get more powers and are more likely to get the job done.

Still, there is a lot unclear and we can only speculate.

Last edited by Cawyden; 21/10/23 02:27 PM.