Except you can change her fate and you can convince her to keep fighting, hell, there's entire cutscene at the end added specifically because players requested it, how do you want even more than that? And we have quite plenty of quality time with Karlach across the acts, obviously it could be more but this is rpg not dating simulator. I can agree that her questline is a bit shorter than some companions but it's still great and nicely ties to the main story with Gortash, makes her feel like a main character, other companions don't have that. As for solutions, well, Dammon tried and failed, we didn't find anything useful with Gortash so yeah, we're kinda out of options. Obviously you can try some gymnastics with DnD mechanics, but with ridiculous options the game offers it would be horrible for the narration because basically everything could be solved with Wish, some divine intervention or whatever so i'm happy Larian sticked to their story. It's a bit similar to the Cyberpunk story, we try many different solutions and fail, that doesn't mean the story isn't rewarding or great. I also don't know why people bring up Wyll constantly, his story is also great so I don't know what more you'd like for him, Halsin for example doesn't have his own dungeon but is still good character
You can change her fate only at the very end (or if you decide to turn her into a mindflayer). She doesn't need much convincing to fight with you until the end. That's what she wanted to do before and after her confrontation with Gortash. You have to play your cards very badly in order for her to leave your party. The only thing she needs convincing of is whether to go back to Avernus or not, which happens at the end.
That Avernus cutscene is not what players requested. What we've been requesting from the start was a way to fix her. That scene was added because, before that, the Avernus choice literally ended with a cut to black, meaning a cutscene should've been there but was missing. That they added it in such a short amount of time is awesome but it's not what most of us were talking about in our feedback.
By quality time, I don't mean dating. I mean having heart-to-heart moments, her spending time with people that she knows, and getting some actual closure. She even suggests going out to dinner with a friend in the city. Why not do that? The scavenger hunt just wastes the time she could've spent doing that instead.
Her questline is very, very short. Especially when you compare it to Astarion, Shadowheart, or Lae'zel.
Both Shadowheart and Lae'zel's questlines were tailor-made for the main story. Lae'zel's creche subplot is a major part of Act 1, while Act 2 is pretty much Shadowheart's turf. Karlach's only meaningful connection to the main story is Gortash, and that ends quickly. Just look at this post to get an idea of how staggering the difference is.
Hard to say she feels like an MC when you can ignore her entire questline and nothing much changes.
Astarion has more of a sidequest going, but it's fully fleshed out. Gale doesn't get much out of the main story, but he has a good thing going for him in his own right (if a bit rushed). Wyll on the other hand feels sidelined by the Emperor in his own story. Halsin isn't an origin character, so not having any dedicated content for him is to be expected.
Back to Karlach -- you yourself said it. We try (once!) with Dammon. He tells us that if he's worth his salt, he'd have figured something out by the next time we meet. Yet, when we meet him again he says we're out of luck. Not worth his salt, I guess? That's a very abrupt and disappointing development. There's not even an attempt at something new here.
As for Gortash, he's directly connected to the quest to save the Gondians. They are infernal engine mechanics who built the Steel Watch (which drop enriched infernal iron). Saving them is infamously frustrating to do and could've yielded a hard-won solution for Karlach, but we're not allowed to pursue that path.
Cyberpunk's story is one of tragedy from the get-go. You also try and fail multiple times, not just once, and even then if you play your cards right, you can get a hopeful open ending where you're free from the shackles that bound you to Night City and given a chance to save yourself.
Even if her questline is a bit shorter, it's still great and fully fleshed and finished very well. Dammon tried and failed, Gondians and Gortash's tech couldn't help so it's time to accept the harsh reality, like come on how many more things we should try for you to change opinion?(we don't take into consideration cheesy solutions like ressurection scroll etc). Just like Cyberpunk, her story is tragedy and it's a great one, I don't see a reason why this should be changed and even then you still can get hopeful ending in Avernus. As for convincing her, the decision could be made earlier but would that change anything really? She's a stubborn character so it's obvious she'd try to do things her way and could be convinced only at the very end when there is no other choice.
Originally Posted by Rae
Originally Posted by Conrad Curze
Originally Posted by Walking Kole
Originally Posted by Conrad Curze
I've been following the thread for few day now but decided to add my opinion. I don't quite understand the thread and the whole discussion, you guys got entire patch dedicated just for you, what else do you want? Karlach's story is great, it's all about making peace with the inevetable and making best of your remaining life. She gets her revenge on Gortash and now can spend her last moments with you (or whoever she romanced if you're not playing Tav) and it's beautiful, why would you want to dimnish the narration with some last second miracle or whatever? That would take away the impact of the story and cheapen it
What we want is to be able to affect what happens to Karlach. As it stands, you can't. The only choices that truly matter for her story are at the pier -- the very end.
Karlach's questline is incredibly short when compared to the other origin characters -- two fetch quests and a boss fight that you need to do anyway. Meanwhile, the others get entire zones, dedicated bosses, and decently long questlines.
As for her revenge, her speech right after killing Gortash spells out how empty that vengeance was for her. She is at her lowest point at that moment, having realized it's all hopeless, and killing him did nothing.
Her last meaningful moment with you after that is her burning up at the pier. That's not beautiful, it's horrifying. She's seconds away from bursting into flame, and you have to decide if you let her die or if she goes back to the place she so desperately wanted to escape.
Even if you believe that her story is about acceptance, that's not what you do most of the time. You spend most of your time with her hunting for a solution, rather than living it out. Karlach herself doesn't come to terms with her situation until after confronting Gortash.
Stories about acceptance like the Fault in Our Stars don't waste time hoping for a solution, they give the characters closure and quality time with each other before they meet their end. We barely have any quality time with Karlach and any semblance of closure by killing Gortash is rendered meaningless because it changed nothing.
What truly cheapens her story is that it's a tragedy that's forced upon us. We're not even allowed to try and fail to help her. We just watch from the sidelines. Isn't this game supposed to be about choices and weaving your own fate? Where is that for Karlach?
The bigger problem, however, is that none of what's happening to her is believable in a DnD setting. You have to go out of your way to stop any potential solutions from being available. What's the point of the Gondians, the enriched infernal iron, all the magic, gods, and demons? You're not allowed to pursue any of them. How Gale was saved was quite literally an act of god, yet his story wasn't cheapened because of it.
Given how lacking Karlach's content is, it will take more than one patch for her to even feel like an origin character, rather than a secondary recruit. She and Wyll got the short end of the stick.
Except you can change her fate and you can convince her to keep fighting, hell, there's entire cutscene at the end added specifically because players requested it, how do you want even more than that? And we have quite plenty of quality time with Karlach across the acts, obviously it could be more but this is rpg not dating simulator. I can agree that her questline is a bit shorter than some companions but it's still great and nicely ties to the main story with Gortash, makes her feel like a main character, other companions don't have that. As for solutions, well, Dammon tried and failed, we didn't find anything useful with Gortash so yeah, we're kinda out of options. Obviously you can try some gymnastics with DnD mechanics, but with ridiculous options the game offers it would be horrible for the narration because basically everything could be solved with Wish, some divine intervention or whatever so i'm happy Larian sticked to their story. It's a bit similar to the Cyberpunk story, we try many different solutions and fail, that doesn't mean the story isn't rewarding or great. I also don't know why people bring up Wyll constantly, his story is also great so I don't know what more you'd like for him, Halsin for example doesn't have his own dungeon but is still good character
Dammon didn't try, gondians didn't try, Mizora didn't try, Raphael didn't try and so on. Yet again and again and again. This whole thread is about the possibility of fixing her, which was in the game but was removed gods know why. In every corner in act 3 there is a clue, that you will fix her, but you cannot, because the game doesn't allow you to try it. And I don't talk about some dnd resurrection scrolls and similar, but about valid possibilities already implemented in the game.
But he did try but couldn't fix her. Gortash and Gondians also didn't have solution. Mizora and Raphael are demons, demons already enslaved her before, why would she trust them? The game allows you to try but it's hopeless, pretty much like V's story which is what makes it so great and allows us to appreciate the time we have left with Karlach
