|
|
|
Banned
|
Banned
Joined: Oct 2023
|
Except you can change her fate and you can convince her to keep fighting, hell, there's entire cutscene at the end added specifically because players requested it, how do you want even more than that? And we have quite plenty of quality time with Karlach across the acts, obviously it could be more but this is rpg not dating simulator. I can agree that her questline is a bit shorter than some companions but it's still great and nicely ties to the main story with Gortash, makes her feel like a main character, other companions don't have that. As for solutions, well, Dammon tried and failed, we didn't find anything useful with Gortash so yeah, we're kinda out of options. Obviously you can try some gymnastics with DnD mechanics, but with ridiculous options the game offers it would be horrible for the narration because basically everything could be solved with Wish, some divine intervention or whatever so i'm happy Larian sticked to their story. It's a bit similar to the Cyberpunk story, we try many different solutions and fail, that doesn't mean the story isn't rewarding or great. I also don't know why people bring up Wyll constantly, his story is also great so I don't know what more you'd like for him, Halsin for example doesn't have his own dungeon but is still good character You can change her fate only at the very end (or if you decide to turn her into a mindflayer). She doesn't need much convincing to fight with you until the end. That's what she wanted to do before and after her confrontation with Gortash. You have to play your cards very badly in order for her to leave your party. The only thing she needs convincing of is whether to go back to Avernus or not, which happens at the end. That Avernus cutscene is not what players requested. What we've been requesting from the start was a way to fix her. That scene was added because, before that, the Avernus choice literally ended with a cut to black, meaning a cutscene should've been there but was missing. That they added it in such a short amount of time is awesome but it's not what most of us were talking about in our feedback. By quality time, I don't mean dating. I mean having heart-to-heart moments, her spending time with people that she knows, and getting some actual closure. She even suggests going out to dinner with a friend in the city. Why not do that? The scavenger hunt just wastes the time she could've spent doing that instead. Her questline is very, very short. Especially when you compare it to Astarion, Shadowheart, or Lae'zel. Both Shadowheart and Lae'zel's questlines were tailor-made for the main story. Lae'zel's creche subplot is a major part of Act 1, while Act 2 is pretty much Shadowheart's turf. Karlach's only meaningful connection to the main story is Gortash, and that ends quickly. Just look at this post to get an idea of how staggering the difference is.Hard to say she feels like an MC when you can ignore her entire questline and nothing much changes. Astarion has more of a sidequest going, but it's fully fleshed out. Gale doesn't get much out of the main story, but he has a good thing going for him in his own right (if a bit rushed). Wyll on the other hand feels sidelined by the Emperor in his own story. Halsin isn't an origin character, so not having any dedicated content for him is to be expected. Back to Karlach -- you yourself said it. We try (once!) with Dammon. He tells us that if he's worth his salt, he'd have figured something out by the next time we meet. Yet, when we meet him again he says we're out of luck. Not worth his salt, I guess? That's a very abrupt and disappointing development. There's not even an attempt at something new here. As for Gortash, he's directly connected to the quest to save the Gondians. They are infernal engine mechanics who built the Steel Watch (which drop enriched infernal iron). Saving them is infamously frustrating to do and could've yielded a hard-won solution for Karlach, but we're not allowed to pursue that path. Cyberpunk's story is one of tragedy from the get-go. You also try and fail multiple times, not just once, and even then if you play your cards right, you can get a hopeful open ending where you're free from the shackles that bound you to Night City and given a chance to save yourself. Even if her questline is a bit shorter, it's still great and fully fleshed and finished very well. Dammon tried and failed, Gondians and Gortash's tech couldn't help so it's time to accept the harsh reality, like come on how many more things we should try for you to change opinion?(we don't take into consideration cheesy solutions like ressurection scroll etc). Just like Cyberpunk, her story is tragedy and it's a great one, I don't see a reason why this should be changed and even then you still can get hopeful ending in Avernus. As for convincing her, the decision could be made earlier but would that change anything really? She's a stubborn character so it's obvious she'd try to do things her way and could be convinced only at the very end when there is no other choice. I've been following the thread for few day now but decided to add my opinion. I don't quite understand the thread and the whole discussion, you guys got entire patch dedicated just for you, what else do you want? Karlach's story is great, it's all about making peace with the inevetable and making best of your remaining life. She gets her revenge on Gortash and now can spend her last moments with you (or whoever she romanced if you're not playing Tav) and it's beautiful, why would you want to dimnish the narration with some last second miracle or whatever? That would take away the impact of the story and cheapen it What we want is to be able to affect what happens to Karlach. As it stands, you can't. The only choices that truly matter for her story are at the pier -- the very end. Karlach's questline is incredibly short when compared to the other origin characters -- two fetch quests and a boss fight that you need to do anyway. Meanwhile, the others get entire zones, dedicated bosses, and decently long questlines. As for her revenge, her speech right after killing Gortash spells out how empty that vengeance was for her. She is at her lowest point at that moment, having realized it's all hopeless, and killing him did nothing. Her last meaningful moment with you after that is her burning up at the pier. That's not beautiful, it's horrifying. She's seconds away from bursting into flame, and you have to decide if you let her die or if she goes back to the place she so desperately wanted to escape. Even if you believe that her story is about acceptance, that's not what you do most of the time. You spend most of your time with her hunting for a solution, rather than living it out. Karlach herself doesn't come to terms with her situation until after confronting Gortash. Stories about acceptance like the Fault in Our Stars don't waste time hoping for a solution, they give the characters closure and quality time with each other before they meet their end. We barely have any quality time with Karlach and any semblance of closure by killing Gortash is rendered meaningless because it changed nothing. What truly cheapens her story is that it's a tragedy that's forced upon us. We're not even allowed to try and fail to help her. We just watch from the sidelines. Isn't this game supposed to be about choices and weaving your own fate? Where is that for Karlach? The bigger problem, however, is that none of what's happening to her is believable in a DnD setting. You have to go out of your way to stop any potential solutions from being available. What's the point of the Gondians, the enriched infernal iron, all the magic, gods, and demons? You're not allowed to pursue any of them. How Gale was saved was quite literally an act of god, yet his story wasn't cheapened because of it. Given how lacking Karlach's content is, it will take more than one patch for her to even feel like an origin character, rather than a secondary recruit. She and Wyll got the short end of the stick. Except you can change her fate and you can convince her to keep fighting, hell, there's entire cutscene at the end added specifically because players requested it, how do you want even more than that? And we have quite plenty of quality time with Karlach across the acts, obviously it could be more but this is rpg not dating simulator. I can agree that her questline is a bit shorter than some companions but it's still great and nicely ties to the main story with Gortash, makes her feel like a main character, other companions don't have that. As for solutions, well, Dammon tried and failed, we didn't find anything useful with Gortash so yeah, we're kinda out of options. Obviously you can try some gymnastics with DnD mechanics, but with ridiculous options the game offers it would be horrible for the narration because basically everything could be solved with Wish, some divine intervention or whatever so i'm happy Larian sticked to their story. It's a bit similar to the Cyberpunk story, we try many different solutions and fail, that doesn't mean the story isn't rewarding or great. I also don't know why people bring up Wyll constantly, his story is also great so I don't know what more you'd like for him, Halsin for example doesn't have his own dungeon but is still good character Dammon didn't try, gondians didn't try, Mizora didn't try, Raphael didn't try and so on. Yet again and again and again. This whole thread is about the possibility of fixing her, which was in the game but was removed gods know why. In every corner in act 3 there is a clue, that you will fix her, but you cannot, because the game doesn't allow you to try it. And I don't talk about some dnd resurrection scrolls and similar, but about valid possibilities already implemented in the game. But he did try but couldn't fix her. Gortash and Gondians also didn't have solution. Mizora and Raphael are demons, demons already enslaved her before, why would she trust them? The game allows you to try but it's hopeless, pretty much like V's story which is what makes it so great and allows us to appreciate the time we have left with Karlach
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
|
If ppl like her ending thats fine? Its been said through out this thread ADDING an OPTION to save her/ fix her ending doesnt dimmish narration or take away from what the few ppl who like her story....like about it? It just gives us an option to adjust her fate more in line with the others.
And once again for a game of 17k supposed* endings. I dont think its to much to ask to just literally use any of the in game options that are teased to the players but we are never given an option to pursue.
I mean come on ppl. This is an RPG where choice is suppose to matter through out the game. Where you influence your companions from anywhere from redemption to damnation to bloody squidwards.
And for most of the companions they did a great job on that with a few minor hiccups.
But karlach? - two fetch quests that you can ignore at no cost. To then decide she dies. Dies in spirit as a squid or goes back to hell the place for her trauma the place she spends 3 acts actively sounding mad and terrified of.
Give me a break.
If astarions only options were to become ascended or die for cazador for us to gain an ally. After 3 acts of trying to save him. I think alot of astarion fans would understand the feelings we have
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Aug 2023
|
But he did try but couldn't fix her. Gortash and Gondians also didn't have solution. Mizora and Raphael are demons, demons already enslaved her before, why would she trust them? The game allows you to try but it's hopeless, pretty much like V's story which is what makes it so great and allows us to appreciate the time we have left with Karlach I think this is not true. There is zero possibility of try. Gondians have the fix and where is dialogue option "please try to install her new engine"? You cannot ask for it. Mizora is closest person to Zariel and where is possibility to ask her. ”Hi Mizora, can you help me?" No, you can't. Same with almighty Raphael and Dammon is maybe the only one where is a little bit of try, but nothing more. Rest of the game he just repeating I'm trying. Even if all these possibilities fail at the end, it will be ok. But you can't even ask, that's the issue in game where everything is possible with 17000 endings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Banned
|
|
Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
|
They didn't care about straight up lying to their fans, what makes you think they gonna care about some angry minority of fans, that is if there even will be one
|
|
|
|
|
|
Banned
|
|
Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
|
No? Just no lol what are you even talking about
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Sep 2023
|
They didn't care about straight up lying to their fans, what makes you think they gonna care about some angry minority of fans, that is if there even will be one Calm down, please. We're trying to get this thread back on track.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2023
|
Even if her questline is a bit shorter, it's still great and fully fleshed and finished very well. Dammon tried and failed, Gondians and Gortash's tech couldn't help so it's time to accept the harsh reality, like come on how many more things we should try for you to change opinion?(we don't take into consideration cheesy solutions like ressurection scroll etc). Just like Cyberpunk, her story is tragedy and it's a great one, I don't see a reason why this should be changed and even then you still can get hopeful ending in Avernus. As for convincing her, the decision could be made earlier but would that change anything really? She's a stubborn character so it's obvious she'd try to do things her way and could be convinced only at the very end when there is no other choice. That harsh reality shouldn't have to be "Avernus or die". It should have the option to become "Avernus or <negative impact on life but at least remain on Faerun, alive>". Other companions with the exception of Gale (who has one positive outcome) all have tragic outcomes, but they all have the opportunity of healing. The closest you could headcanon for healing for Karlach is finding an infernal smith in Avernus who can fix her up, but it's never implied that'll happen. If astarions only options were to become ascended or die for cazador for us to gain an ally. After 3 acts of trying to save him. I think alot of astarion fans would understand the feelings we have This, pretty much. When I saw the room with Shadowheart's parents and the Mirror of Loss in the back, my heart sank pretty heavily. I thought the only two options I would get is let them rot and keep Shadowheart, or save them but have her use the Mirror of Loss to forget everything and thus lose her. If that were her endings, I'd have rioted until the internet ran out of bandwidth. Instead, the endings still have heavy impact on her, but at least you don't feel as defeated as you do with Karlach's current endings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Banned
|
|
Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
|
Cool, lets go back to repeating the same thing over and over again just like you have been doing for the past 2 months
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Aug 2023
|
Gondians and Gortash's tech couldn't help Did we like. Try though? Was there a single dialogue option to ask a single Gondian? There's one line from a Steel Watcher about an old model and being dismantled, but do we, like, pursue that lead at all? Or do we take what a tin can said on face value? Sure, maybe they couldn't help, but how does our character know that? They can't ask ONCE. Like, respectfully, surely you can see the difference between "tried that option and it didn't work" (like with Dammon) and "didn't try at all". Also, while I understand your general point in regards to the value of such stories, can we not pretend that V's "spent a whole game chasing leads, asked multiple different experts and organizations, got into multiple side-quests for the sheer promise of survival, and even so ended up with multiple endings, one of which sees them fleeing from their place of trauma permanently with a hopeful open ending and one of which now actually cures them, just with a heavy price to pay" is in any way comparable to "directly asked only one person and when he couldn't perform a miracle immediately just gave up, leaving only death and trauma central as options". That's like Cyberpunk being fixed into Arasaka and suicide endings only, regardless of what you did during the game. There would be twice less complaints about Karlach if we could try like half as hard for her as V tries for themselves. (Obviously Karlach is not the main character and in that regard V's storyline is much more akin to Tav looking to get rid of the tadpole - now THAT'S where we ask multiple sources and try multiple approaches - so even a third of that effort for Karlach would be enough. But there's not even that). Also, "a bit shorter" is an understatement. Is it a crime to point out that a great character got noticeably less content than other Origins? Her current questline in its length and player's input is more comparable to Halsin (kill goblins --> fetch a lute --> protect a portal --> find a kid vs. fetch iron --> fetch iron --> kill a guy) than any others. Maybe except Wyll, who also got the shorter end of the stick due to being rewritten and therefore developed less in this iteration than other EA peeps, but even with him we can still feel like we made a difference in the end. Accomplished something. Tried, you know?(hell, to that end even Halsin by the end of the game ends up in a new place - not in the grove anymore, curse cured, new life awaiting. Karlach is still stuck in the same place between Avernus or death as when we first met her. Giving her touch back was a great thing, beautifully written thing, no notes, but it hardly feels like a whole quest done. Isn't this the genre where our choices should affect the outcome?)
![[Linked Image from tarraxahum.neocities.org]](https://tarraxahum.neocities.org/buttons/2rdo1pL.png)
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Sep 2023
|
Even if her questline is a bit shorter, it's still great and fully fleshed and finished very well. Dammon tried and failed, Gondians and Gortash's tech couldn't help so it's time to accept the harsh reality, like come on how many more things we should try for you to change opinion?(we don't take into consideration cheesy solutions like ressurection scroll etc). Just like Cyberpunk, her story is tragedy and it's a great one, I don't see a reason why this should be changed and even then you still can get hopeful ending in Avernus. As for convincing her, the decision could be made earlier but would that change anything really? She's a stubborn character so it's obvious she'd try to do things her way and could be convinced only at the very end when there is no other choice. It's not a bit shorter, it's a lot shorter. And it's not fleshed out because you don't get to do much throughout it. It's just two fetch quests and a boss fight. Everything else you can do with Karlach isn't part of it. We don't know if the Gondians couldn't help because we could never ask them. That's just not an option. It's also not an option to sign any pacts or ask any gods. We just can't ask anyone or do anything. How many things should we be able to try? At least more than the one thing we try in the very beginning would be nice. Her story is not a tragedy, it's just pointless bullying. She barely gets to live, gets no closure, and no chance to fight for herself. You try one thing, and then you're not allowed anything else. How is this a good tragedy? She can't be convinced earlier. Every time you bring up going back to Avernus, she rejects that notion because she would rather die than go back. Except for the very end where she does an inexplicable 180 and agrees to do it anyway. And there's nothing hopeful about going to Avernus. It's practically a suicide mission.
Last edited by Walking Kole; 21/10/23 02:26 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
|
Even if her questline is a bit shorter, it's still great and fully fleshed and finished very well. Dammon tried and failed, Gondians and Gortash's tech couldn't help so it's time to accept the harsh reality, like come on how many more things we should try for you to change opinion?(we don't take into consideration cheesy solutions like ressurection scroll etc). Just like Cyberpunk, her story is tragedy and it's a great one, I don't see a reason why this should be changed and even then you still can get hopeful ending in Avernus. As for convincing her, the decision could be made earlier but would that change anything really? She's a stubborn character so it's obvious she'd try to do things her way and could be convinced only at the very end when there is no other choice.
But he did try but couldn't fix her. Gortash and Gondians also didn't have solution. Mizora and Raphael are demons, demons already enslaved her before, why would she trust them? The game allows you to try but it's hopeless, pretty much like V's story which is what makes it so great and allows us to appreciate the time we have left with Karlach Conrad, i get your point of view. i understand where you're coming from with the V from cyberpunk parallel. But just stating something doesn't make it true. we... didn't try anything with the gondians and the new tech we are nudged towards in the game. We simply didn't. I don't know why you're so adamant about the fact that WE TRIED EVERYTHING, because we really didn't... i'm not talking about DnD mental gymnastics, i'm talking about stuff already present in the game. We are redirected towards it, yet it's never used. Because it was likely cut due to time and money costraints. You can appreciate it what's there regardless, that much is obvious. Doesn't change the fact that part of what you're saying simply isn't true: we didn't try all we could. And Karlach was never written with only these endings in mind, i'll redirect you towards Frazer revealing by accident he indeed recorded scenes and dialogue for a fix dammon finally found: Accidental reveali really think all the endings are valid, as long as also this one is allowed to exist. That wouldn't take away from you and your enjoyment of the character. It doesn't cheapen it, not by a long shot. It just makes the questline, the character, and the world make sense in the context they are in.
Last edited by Enerif; 21/10/23 02:26 PM. Reason: link not working, trying to put it into spoiler tags.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Aug 2023
|
Also re:options and dealing with devils and such, I still find it funny (I understand WHY it is what it is, but like, from a narrative standpoint) that Raphael is talking about "When all hope runs out you'll come to me" and such, but when he tries to make a deal with us it's like. I am not that desperate for the tadpole cure by that point. We have the artefact, we have a plan, there's at least one Netherstone in our pocket. My Tav didn't eat a single tadpole so hers is rather meek still, and some other Tav who ate a lot of them might not even be that afraid anymore, cool powers and all. And the Hammer - well, not everyone might even want to help Orpheus, and my urchin was immediately of the mind to steal it when it was revealed where it is.
Depending on a Tav/Durge, that whole scene can come off not as a devil tempting us with a pact, but as a devil begging us for help instead of vise versa.
But there's this one glaring issue with a ticking timer, one my Tav has no plan for and is frankly terrified about, one laced with love and therefore desperation that could've been manipulated easily, one where hope indeed runs dry and they might be just one step away from doing something they regret about it... And our dramatic devil right there doesn't pull that thread? Doesn't catch me hook line and sinker? Raph, buddy, you're losing your bite.
(Again, I understand that it was clearly never planned for and the tadpole issue by design should be the most pressing one, but, like. In-character? It's funny. Such a lost opportunity for him. Could've had his crown of a silver platter in some playthroughs.)
Last edited by tarraxahum; 21/10/23 02:36 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Banned
|
|
Banned
Joined: Oct 2023
|
If ppl like her ending thats fine? Its been said through out this thread ADDING an OPTION to save her/ fix her ending doesnt dimmish narration or take away from what the few ppl who like her story....like about it? It just gives us an option to adjust her fate more in line with the others.
And once again for a game of 17k supposed* endings. I dont think its to much to ask to just literally use any of the in game options that are teased to the players but we are never given an option to pursue.
I mean come on ppl. This is an RPG where choice is suppose to matter through out the game. Where you influence your companions from anywhere from redemption to damnation to bloody squidwards.
And for most of the companions they did a great job on that with a few minor hiccups.
But karlach? - two fetch quests that you can ignore at no cost. To then decide she dies. Dies in spirit as a squid or goes back to hell the place for her trauma the place she spends 3 acts actively sounding mad and terrified of.
Give me a break.
If astarions only options were to become ascended or die for cazador for us to gain an ally. After 3 acts of trying to save him. I think alot of astarion fans would understand the feelings we have Of course it would dimnish the whole narration. Her entire story is about making peace with inevetable end, so fixing it at the last moment kinda throws away the entire arc. The whole avernus ending is very anti climatic for me and I think it shouldn't be an option but I understand that Larian wanted to give her something hopeful. She's the perfect tragedy because sometimes there is no good ending but at least she can become mindflayer and be the hero of her beloved city. I just can't understand why you guys have problem with that, it's a great piece of narration. But he did try but couldn't fix her. Gortash and Gondians also didn't have solution. Mizora and Raphael are demons, demons already enslaved her before, why would she trust them? The game allows you to try but it's hopeless, pretty much like V's story which is what makes it so great and allows us to appreciate the time we have left with Karlach I think this is not true. There is zero possibility of try. Gondians have the fix and where is dialogue option "please try to install her new engine"? You cannot ask for it. Mizora is closest person to Zariel and where is possibility to ask her. ”Hi Mizora, can you help me?" No, you can't. Same with almighty Raphael and Dammon is maybe the only one where is a little bit of try, but nothing more. Rest of the game he just repeating I'm trying. Even if all these possibilities fail at the end, it will be ok. But you can't even ask, that's the issue in game where everything is possible with 17000 endings. The Gondians don't have the solution because her engine is too old, that's literally the line of the Steel Watcher and it's logical they can't fix her because they shouldn't be able to without some bullshit deus ex machinas. I'll also repeat myself, it were the demons that enslaved Karlach in the first place, why would she crawl back to them to likely be enslaved again and cheated by another contract?
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
|
My dude, you are clearly missing the point of a player choice driven game. Which this was marketed as. Cyberpunk is a natrative driven singular path game. As in you the player are just kind of along for the ride to the end. With some minor choices to get you to the end
This is a dnd inspired Crpg
Similer to dragon age origins in how choice and player infkuence on companions can impact the story. Having options is a strength and appeal to this style of game. Being pigeon hold into something is not. Espically when theres only one glaringly obvious pigeon hold in contrast to every other companion.
I get you like her endings thats fine.
And if an option to save her is implemented. I garentee you, you can still choosr to ignore it and send our girl back to hell, or bask in her explosion.
Ill just be able to have her stay and hug her cause I for one think she has suffered enough. And we will BOTH be happy. So not sure why your fighting so hard against it. For real.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Aug 2023
|
If ppl like her ending thats fine? Its been said through out this thread ADDING an OPTION to save her/ fix her ending doesnt dimmish narration or take away from what the few ppl who like her story....like about it? It just gives us an option to adjust her fate more in line with the others.
And once again for a game of 17k supposed* endings. I dont think its to much to ask to just literally use any of the in game options that are teased to the players but we are never given an option to pursue.
I mean come on ppl. This is an RPG where choice is suppose to matter through out the game. Where you influence your companions from anywhere from redemption to damnation to bloody squidwards.
And for most of the companions they did a great job on that with a few minor hiccups.
But karlach? - two fetch quests that you can ignore at no cost. To then decide she dies. Dies in spirit as a squid or goes back to hell the place for her trauma the place she spends 3 acts actively sounding mad and terrified of.
Give me a break.
If astarions only options were to become ascended or die for cazador for us to gain an ally. After 3 acts of trying to save him. I think alot of astarion fans would understand the feelings we have Of course it would dimnish the whole narration. Her entire story is about making peace with inevetable end, so fixing it at the last moment kinda throws away the entire arc. The whole avernus ending is very anti climatic for me and I think it shouldn't be an option but I understand that Larian wanted to give her something hopeful. She's the perfect tragedy because sometimes there is no good ending but at least she can become mindflayer and be the hero of her beloved city. I just can't understand why you guys have problem with that, it's a great piece of narration. But he did try but couldn't fix her. Gortash and Gondians also didn't have solution. Mizora and Raphael are demons, demons already enslaved her before, why would she trust them? The game allows you to try but it's hopeless, pretty much like V's story which is what makes it so great and allows us to appreciate the time we have left with Karlach I think this is not true. There is zero possibility of try. Gondians have the fix and where is dialogue option "please try to install her new engine"? You cannot ask for it. Mizora is closest person to Zariel and where is possibility to ask her. ”Hi Mizora, can you help me?" No, you can't. Same with almighty Raphael and Dammon is maybe the only one where is a little bit of try, but nothing more. Rest of the game he just repeating I'm trying. Even if all these possibilities fail at the end, it will be ok. But you can't even ask, that's the issue in game where everything is possible with 17000 endings. The Gondians don't have the solution because her engine is too old, that's literally the line of the Steel Watcher and it's logical they can't fix her because they shouldn't be able to without some bullshit deus ex machinas. I'll also repeat myself, it were the demons that enslaved Karlach in the first place, why would she crawl back to them to likely be enslaved again and cheated by another contract? She wouldn't crawl back to them, but Tav should. Can he? No. And Gondians have newer engine, so they could give her a new one. Can you even ask? No And I understand your deus ex machina issue, we spoke about this before on this forum, that they are "engineers", but we need "surgeon". I thing the game just cannot cover everything.
Last edited by Rae; 21/10/23 02:52 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2023
|
Ill just be able to have her stay and hug her cause I for one think she has suffered enough. NO. No hugs. You already got one. Not fair if you get two until other non-Astarion companions get at least one first!
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Aug 2023
|
And don't get me wrong I like actual endings, of course they are very emotional and strong, but the feel that the fix was possible in the past is too obvious in whole act 3.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
|
Lol my bad sorry,  #freehugsforeveryone
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Aug 2023
|
She's the perfect tragedy because sometimes there is no good ending but at least she can become mindflayer and be the hero of her beloved city. I just can't understand why you guys have problem with that, it's a great piece of narration. I think the most honest answer here is "Not everyone agrees that 'no good ending' tragedies - especially the ones that happen by default without an explicit failure on the player's part - are fitting or needed in a fantasy choose-your-own-adventure setting where you can influence everyone else's fate". People die in D&D, sure, but that usually involves stuff like "explicitly gave themselves up for the others to live", or "another character had to choose between saving this and that", or "the rest of the gang tried resurrection and failed" or at the very least "players failed to pick up any related missions which DM tried to give them or screwed the quest up and this is the consequence of that". A somber no-escape tragedy that passively happens to a character works amazingly in other settings (that's also why V works, no happy endings is the cyberpunk genre's whole thing), but to place a doomed character in a D&D and not even make an adventure out of trying to undoom them? Some people will have problems, yes. If that was my DM I would definitely let them hear that as well. Sure, a videogame will always be more limited than literal human imagination, but as other characters in the game demonstrate - that's not the obstacle here. I'll also repeat myself, it were the demons that enslaved Karlach in the first place, why would she crawl back to them to likely be enslaved again and cheated by another contract? I think you're misunderstanding that point a bit. Karlach wouldn't, there's no doubt about that. Tav, however, or whatever character we're playing, might, depending on the player's choices (IF there were such choices presented).
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Sep 2023
|
Of course it would dimnish the whole narration. Her entire story is about making peace with inevetable end, so fixing it at the last moment kinda throws away the entire arc. The whole avernus ending is very anti climatic for me and I think it shouldn't be an option but I understand that Larian wanted to give her something hopeful. She's the perfect tragedy because sometimes there is no good ending but at least she can become mindflayer and be the hero of her beloved city. I just can't understand why you guys have problem with that, it's a great piece of narration.
...
The Gondians don't have the solution because her engine is too old, that's literally the line of the Steel Watcher and it's logical they can't fix her because they shouldn't be able to without some bullshit deus ex machinas. I'll also repeat myself, it were the demons that enslaved Karlach in the first place, why would she crawl back to them to likely be enslaved again and cheated by another contract? Her entire story is about finding a cure for her problem, she doesn't start making peace with it until after Gortash. That's when her quest line ends. Up until then she still held onto hope. So fixing the engine is very much in line with her arc -- you tried once, you failed. Dammon came up with nothing. She loses all hope for a solution after Gortash. But we don't. Through hard work and some heavy sacrifices, we do it. There's likely a big catch to her newfound situation, but at least there's hope now. Avernus perhaps feels anticlimactic to you because we didn't ease into it. If we could actually slowly nudge her throughout the game, it would've felt more natural. But the two options -- dying or going back -- are totally valid. Her going back to Avernus is the story facing her with her biggest fear. As for this idea that "sometimes there is no good ending" -- there has to be a good reason for any bad ending. It can't just be bad for its own sake. What is the narrator trying to impart to the player with her story? That's the most important question. Right now I'm struggling to find a good answer. ... Her engine is a prototype. The Gondians could replace it with the new version that can exist in this plane. But we can't know if they can or can't do that, because we're never given the chance to talk to them about it. The Steel Watcher told her she was defective and needed to go back to the foundry to get fixed up. We can't pursue that line, either.
|
|
|
|
|
