Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

I get your point and even agree, I wish they had not bothered with Halsin personally. However this is a lot of arm chair quarterbacking on the part of the community. Developers look at various aspects of the game and make decisions at those moments based on what they think should or should not be in the game. After the game is done as a single player it is easy to say they did it wrong but did they?

I understand the passion, I have whole sections of the game and story I personally think was poorly done and even outright hate. Those feelings are cool. It is testiement to how good the writing and character acting is that people have as much passion as they do about many of the NPCs.

Solidarity, brother/sister. #freehugsforeveryone and #justiceforkarlach!

It honestly boils down to the combination of both of the above. It's a D&D CRPG so the choices should be there, it doesn't have to be a perfect outcome but it shouldn't only be doom and gloom either unless that makes sense. But the hints are all there that it can be solved, and it's certainly not the easiest mission to come to either since saving all the suicidal Gondians while keeping Dammon and the Ironhand Gnomes (mainly Barcus) alive in your playthrough isn't something everyone will come across.

Tav goes to Raphael, who asks for a deal to get the Orphic Hammer. Tav makes a deal to solve Karlach's issue instead, Raphael accepts. Lae'zel and Voss get angry you didn't make a deal for the Orphic Hammer, Karlach gets happy-angry you signed your soul away for her. Proceed to raid the House of Hope, take the Hammer and your contract, and slap Raphael about. Zariel won't be happy and will keep hunting Karlach, who lost a lot of her power without the engine, so it's not a purely positive outcome. Done.

They set up some relatively easy solutions themselves, all they have to do is implement them. It is of course up to the DM (the writers) to decide not to add them after all. But why hint at the options and set up these perfect solutions then?

I get what your saying to a degree, i do think the developers did the best they could with the time an resources available, i wont bash larian or its writers because of this, i think releasing the game a month early was honestly a smart thing on their part based on starfield coming out in sept. But if it looks like armchairing critque, were just pointing at the things clearly in the game and the signs all show karlachs story was meant to have her be able to be fixed.
Full stop. Now it wasnt implemented. Either due to time restriant funding or last minute desicion making i dont know.
What this thread is for is showing there is a big desire and hope for larian to please take some time and implement said fix.

And honestly were 3 BIG patchs in and they still havnt removed the ungodly amount of enriched infernal iron in act 3.
Which gives me hope its still on the table as an option later down the line. And im willing to wait. But as i wait i am going to still going to actively promote the fixing of her engine cause thats the most i can do *shrug*

Well, I mean, yeah! In the end that's entire point, I think. We all here liked the character so much that not being able to give her at least a happy-ish ending (granted, you can interpret the Avernus option differently, but clearly not everyone saw it as hopeful - I think the fact that all of us see fiction through the prism of our own experiences and convictions plays a big role here for sure) was unbearable enough to start looking for signs that we missed something. And as things stand now, we didn't - but that's where the short quest and the gap in content compared to other origins becomes glaring, 'cause that's the only thing we find when looking for solutions.

In some way all such criticism is "arm chair quarterbacking", I think, especially since none of us (I think?) are devs ourselves. I worked in another similar story-creating industry, I've sat through my fair share of seeing people on social media rage about a plot twist I knew my colleagues put a lot of thought and work into. I've also, however, seen stuff getting rushed because of deadlines or other factors, in which case the blowback was even more frustrating, because we all knew it's correct in some regards, but couldn't just come out and say "yyyeah we agree actually" (no one does that). Sometimes stuff got left as is, because creators stand firmly by their choices, sometimes stuff got corrected 'cause we all knew it wasn't right and were itching to fix it as well, sometimes stuff got changed for sheer fanservice because it became obvious that such change could be profited on (not the best approach, but could be done well depending on the writer responsible).

I don't know what the case is with Larian and Karlach, obviously. Could be an adamant choice they'll stand by, could be a case of some rushed content due to her being added the last, could be something else. I also can't know if they're going to do anything with her further down the line.

But I did love the character, and believe it or not I loved the story, but for me the ability to actually consistently fight for her felt lacking enough that it unfortunately underlined the faults in her questline gameplay-wise, so all I can do now is sit in my chair and talk smack like I know what I'm talking about. (I do try to do it constructively though!)

The devs have already done a phenomenal job. We wouldn't be here if they hadn't. I'm fully confident that they know how her story could've gone differently, especially after the recent slip-up by Dammon's voice actor.

I appreciate where you're coming from. The current story is an emotional rollercoaster. The Avernus ending is the better one out of the two at the pier. Not because she gets to live, but because she now faces her biggest fear -- the one thing she's been figuratively and literally running away from. But as you said, this time she's not alone. Her most traumatic experience down there was crippling loneliness. Now things are different.

But I want you to consider a player who's lost someone dear to them in real life, now faced with the same situation in-game. And they're powerless to stop it. There have been more than a few posters on here that relayed those feelings -- of hopelessness and emptiness -- and lamented the cruelty of it all. Those of us who believe Karlach is a woman worth saving should be allowed to at least give it an earnest try. Our feelings are valid, too.

I think a HUGE catch there could be that, say, Raph only promises to help Karlach after you fulfill the contract. And perhaps he actually does, but if there's a catch in that contract (as there probably is), then, well, that's your open bittersweet ending - Karlach lives, but now you're going to have to figure out how to get your soul back in post-game.

My godness I've been scrolling through this thread for a few day now and my god what an ungrateful bunch you are. Karlach is supposed to be a doomed character, I don't know why you just wont accept it. By god Larian even rushed and added new cutscene just for her, and it's still not enough for you. Clearly there was no plans for her to have a good ending, and it becomes obvious when you listen to devs. They seem to be happy with her story as it is, they think its the fate she deserves and thats it, its their story they can do whatever they want. Just accept it

Guess I won't have my answer then

Lol- at no plans

Pretty much all of this. People talk as if we want those depressing endings removed. These endings will remain: we want ONE good ending for her that doesn't result ending up in Avernus; her prison. The others can get their own good endings just fine.

Because it destroys the narrative. What's the point of her realizing she has few days left and needs to do live to the fullest with the time she has left if the solution magically appears and throws away the whole arc? And you can't save everyone, in act 1 you have to basically chose between Karlach and Minthara because even if you don't side with refugees or absolute, thieflings will die and lock you out of Karlach's questline. You have to side with either Emperor or Orpheus, as Dark Urge you'll be forced to kill Alfira (who's also sweet and Innocent character, yet terrible thing can happen to her btw), don't act like there is always a way out in this game.
Except even after you get her upgrade in act 2, she says that she doesn't care about the engine and wants to use her remaining time now that she can touch someone. The Watcher said her engine should be scrapped (propably alongside her) and Gondians can't help her because if her engine was possible to remove, we wouldn't have a problem but it isn't, that's why new version won't solve the issue.


And how in the world she's supposed to be fine with her (presumably) lover selling their soul to the same monsters that enslaved her? She'd literally rather die than stay in the House of Hope, Tav selling themselves out would be like a knife to the back for her.


And what the hell has Astarion to do with that? Or rather any other companion?

I mean you're free to do whatever you want but for me it's just wrong. I don't even want to imagine how much it costed them, both money and health to make that one cinematic, yet you still complain. Thats so toxic of you

Don't appreciate the personal attack, but that's fine.

"Karlach is supposed to be a doomed character" -- citation needed. Nobody has ever said that. Not Swen, not the devs. No one.

In fact, everything that's present in the game points in the other direction -- the abundance of enriched infernal iron and a bunch of advanced infernal engine mechanics. But you can't interact with them on that one conspicuous point. A bit of a coincidence, don't you think? Doesn't help that Dammon's VA accidentally admitted to there being voicelines of her getting a fix recorded. If she was planned to be a doomed character from the get-go, why have them?

Her Avernus scene filled in what was once an abrupt cut to black when you chose that option. We appreciate the effort they put into it, and some people love that ending as a whole. But we asked for a fix, we didn't ask to send her to hell.

Lastly, getting railroaded into one particular narrative in a game about choices is the last thing you should expect.

Thats of course true, but this is another story with its consequesnces. The main issue remains. Could you try it? Could you ask for it? No and No. You are not allowed by the game and yet it is so obvious that it should be possible.

Whats the point of making a deal with rapheal when you can raid the house of hope?
Whats the point of continuing wylls contract when you can still save his father?
Dude i get you like the depressong stuff and the idea* of making the *hard choice* and in bg3 you have the OPTION* to pursue it in alot of areas.
But no it doesnt dimmish the narrative. To implement the fixed engine ending which was clearly intended baded on stuff alrdy in the game. No ones going to take away your tragedy.
Your good.
For the rest of us we are just spitballing ideas and concerns and hoping Larian takes note.

Haha im the toxic one? Ok i know know yoir either trolling or you havnt been reading this thread at all.
But ok my dude

Literally only 2 or 3 accounts in this whole thread has been actually toxic regarding larian and the rest of us defend the company. But were allowed to critque a product weve bought.

I'll be dead honest with you, I don't think the realizations you gain when dying are in any way diminished or going anywhere if you survive. She still went through all that, still felt all that, it's not going anywhere.

In fact, I believe there are a bunch of stories written all over the world about people going ham on living their lives to the fullest only to learn at the very end that their diagnosis was wrong and they won't die. Never once have I heard anyone call those arcs cheap.


The Watcher is hardly a definite undebatable expert on the subject and at no point can we ask the Gondians (who built it) IF they can help, so how exactly does our character know that? Like, we can come to that conclusion as a player through meta-gaming, because we see the options on the screen, but did anyone give that information to our character?


She probably wouldn't be, that's the beauty of making choices and facing consequences in a role-playing game.


In the most kind, sincere, human and concerned way possible: wouldn't you rather spend all that time on people whose point of view does not annoy you by default?

Aye, would add a nice touch as well in the sense that in the current endings Tav is generally the one who's okay. Would be cool if there was one where Tav was the one making the sacrifice for a companion (one that isn't going full mindflayer). Would need some kind of different solution to raiding the House of Hope for the Orphic Hammer then I suppose, but I'm sure they can think of something.


In my opinion, the opposite is the case right now. So many things hint at her being savable while also giving you hints at what happens if you don't. Which makes sense - it should be a choice and you have to work for the solution, so the game should prepare you for both scenarios. But instead, no matter how hard you work for it and follow all the hints at saving her, it all accomplishes nothing and she's doomed regardless - choice was never actually there and trying to pursue it was pointless. Just a whole list of red herring solutions.

Yes, there are NPCs in the game that are doomed regardless, or require one to be sacrificed to get another. But none of those that you mentioned are origin companions, with the exception of Wyll turning into a demon if you want Karlach. For each other origin companion there is a way out to the point where they can start healing. That doesn't mean that's their only outcomes - they can all meet a dreadful end all throughout the game and in the endings. But the option is there.


It was a joke about how the game needs more options for hugs. Currently only Karlach and Astarion get one.

Oh but sending her back to Avernus, something she despises, is fine? You know, an ending that exists in game. Even before the 'extended scene'. What if Tav doesn't want Karlach to die or go back to Avernus? We are talking about a game where we can have solutions for every single companion. We can either kill them, doom them to their past (Astarion ascending, basically doing what Cazador did even if he likes it, Shadowheart can remain a Shar slave, Wyll can remain as a slave to Mizora and Zariel....) or we can prevent all of those.

We can do literallly nothing for Karlach. And it's off for a game like BG, a game that already provides different outcomes for your companions, minus Karlach. Good, bad, bittersweet. Karlach's endings are all bad.

Not sure why you are against all this, you'll still get your depressing ending anyway. It won't destroy your narrative.

Constructive criticism doesn't mean we don't appreciate the work that they've done.