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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2023
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You are like those people who would bash idk game of thrones or something like this because they killed off your favourite character. Karlach was supposed to be doomed, they even said it in one of the interview, yet for some reason you wanna force them to change entire point of the character Please lets not start this again. If people want to ask for a change let them. This does not hurt anyone and if you do not like the thread, as I said above, just ignore it. And yet the Shadowheart thread got shut down. Why the double standard? I don't think this thread should be closed but the Shadowheart thread should be reopened or at the very least we should be allowed to make a new one.
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
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But it hurts someone when I tell them it's not fair to force creators to change something they made?
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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I'm sorry I must have missed the gun I was holding to the head of Larian commanding them to change Karlach's story or else. Larian requested feedback on their game, I'm giving feedback on their game. I'm not sure why this offends you so much.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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But it hurts someone when I tell them it's not fair to force creators to change something they made? Looking very dejectedly at you right now, pal I promise you, we can't force Larian to do anything they decide they don't want to do. We simply don't have that kind of power. They are in no danger from us and are free to not take this feedback into account if they deem it unreasonable. In my opinion that wouldn't even really count as "Not listening to their players" because they clearly do with all the updates they're doing like magic mirrors and rumored photomodes. The only thing in our power is to stop playing if we can't handle it, which would be our right and wouldn't really hurt anyone seeing as the game is already bought. It is, however, genuinely funny that we're somehow both the "thread on some old forum no one cares about" and "people forcing creators to make changes" (what, at a gunpoint?)  The duality of a fan. This is the point where I would like to re-rail the thread again, but all I have at hand now is "Hey have you guys heard that Miracle of Sound promised a Karlach-centric song? 'Cause I'm hyped!". I do, however, echo that this is my main source of any actual news when they do drop! EDIT: I'm sorry I must have missed the gun I was holding to the head of Larian Jinx!
Last edited by tarraxahum; 21/10/23 05:29 PM.
![[Linked Image from tarraxahum.neocities.org]](https://tarraxahum.neocities.org/buttons/2rdo1pL.png)
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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But it hurts someone when I tell them it's not fair to force creators to change something they made? Feedback is not 'forcing the creators'. Do not try to twist this thread into something that's not. 
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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But it hurts someone when I tell them it's not fair to force creators to change something they made? Forcing creators is really very strong. Most of the feedback here was constructive and with all respect to Larian and the devs.
Last edited by Rae; 21/10/23 05:40 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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Another Karlach song? Do we get 3?!?!
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Another Karlach song? Do we get 3?!?! At the very least! What a testament to how much her character is loved, honestly. Very curious to see which angle this one will take.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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The first 2 were pretty fantastic. I listen to devil with a heart of iron on my runs lol
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Another Karlach song? Do we get 3?!?! Another one for Sam's streaming arsenal.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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I love Karlach as a character. (I'm not sure if we still have to use spoiler tags after 100+ pages, but here goes.) I am glad that the Avernus option was added for Karlach, so that she at least has a chance now. I feel like the fact that she is originally adamant about not going back, but learns to reconsider it once she has true friends who'd be willing to back with her, is a great development. I do think that adding more options for her would be appropriate. If/when a significant content expansion might happen for the game broadly, I think it would be hard to justify not expanding Karlach's content too. In the meantime, it might be appropriate to get to talk to the Gondians about her situation, even if it turns out that there isn't time for them to fix her before things reach a head.
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
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It's unfair to demand author to change the point of the characters story just because you didn't liked the ending
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
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I don't know how over 100 pages of complaining because you have a problem with ending is respectful. It's explained well enough why her engine can't be fixed, so why change the ending if it's good enough?
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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Another Karlach song? Do we get 3?!?! Another one for Sam's streaming arsenal. i may have missed the links for them. can someone post them (again), please?
#JusticeForKarlach!
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Another Karlach song? Do we get 3?!?! Another one for Sam's streaming arsenal. i may have missed the links for them. can someone post them (again), please? Here you go: Devil with a Heart of IronUnchained
Last edited by Walking Kole; 21/10/23 06:36 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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I was supposed to move away from this, but I kinda want to re-iterate myself from before and, perhaps, try to keep the thread on track. So here goes. Baldur's Gate 3 is a really good game, but there's some aspects in its narrative that grinds me the wrong way. When it comes to characters Gale and Karlach, they both share a very similar hurdle; a ticking time bomb in their chest. Now, the game prides itself to have tough choices with consequences, but in this case, there's only consequences without any choices. Let me explain: In the game's narrative, the player gets to help Gale, but no matter what the player's choice is, Karlach's is doomed. It's even worse considering their past, where Gale has had an easy childhood, silver platters all around, being a prodigy, and eventually is the cause of his own problems. Problems which get resolved by a deus ex machina style manner when Elminster pops up out of nowhere and stabilizes him. Karlach on the other hand is of a somewhat frowned upon race (Tieflings), her past is forced upon her with trauma after trauma, and in the end, no matter what the player's actions (or inactions) are, her arc remains the same and she cannot be helped. In a world where anything is possible from sleeping with gods and getting true resurrected from atoms, it's Karlach who cannot be helped. Larian might not have meant this, but it's quite close to slavery allegory, where after escaping captivity, you're never truly free and the only way to stay alive is to return to your "owner".
Here's some bullet points to show their differences:
Gale
Easy childhood
Gets rewarded from his actions (Sleeps with a goddess etc.)
His problem is his own doing, he chose to do it
Gets bailed out by a deus ex machina
Gets a satisfying ending
Karlach
Sold into slavery and forced into servitude
Her problem was forced upon her
Had no choice in her actions
Escapes slavery
Gets teased with hope many times to no avail
No matter the player actions during the game, she either dies, gets sent back to her slaver or loses her identity (Mindflayer)
Looking at these side by side, it just doesn't look good. Especially when there are many, many ways, in-game no less, that might help her. Here's some:
- Enriched infernal Iron. You can loot that, and it does nothing. Convenient.
- House of Hope & Raphael. I'm sure a demon/devil/whatever, who is a direct competitor to ZARIEL, might be interested in a transaction with SOUL COINS. You know, the infernal currency we find throughout the game?
- Divine intervention scroll? No? Anyone?
- Even Mizora might help, just to be spiteful. Or wanting a deal. Them winged ones sure like deals.
- During the game you can help multiple gods. Why wouldn't they want to repay that? Would be just another Tuesday for them.
- You have Withers at your camp. Why can't he true res Karlach for a fee? "But it's a game mechanic" you say? It's still a resurrection. Have permadeath if you think resurrection has no place in DnD.
- Speaking of True Res, Gale has a SCROLL of it later in the game. Perhaps he'd be willing to part with it. Or maybe his cheese buddy Deus Ex Elminster has solutions?
- Wish spell is in the game, Vlaakith uses it on you. After all we did for the world and gods, we'd sure love one wish spell. Is Vlaakith the only god who can wish?
- But, the most obvious are the Gondians. You know, the INFERNAL MECHANICS you save/meet, who have PERFECTED and UPGRADED the same engine Karlach has. Why is this completely brushed off? "But open heart surgery!" Oh come on. There are talking heads. You can sleep with a bear. Magic, gas forms, resurrections, telekineses, submarines and gods are around, and you draw a line at heart surgery?
- Hell, even Gortash might trade them schematics/newer engines for his life. Would fit perfectly with his character. All in all, it's a major narrative whiplash you get when you're told that Karlach cannot be cured. It's a damn common cold compared to Gale's problem, and he gets it fixed just like that. It's way too railroading into a "bittersweet" ending in a game, that prides itself to have choices that will mean something. Then let them mean something. "But we did all we could" Karlach's fiery, poignant and bittersweet endings would work if the game was set in another setting. Set in the modern, real world? Most definitely. Sci-fi? Most probably. Low fantasy? So and so, but could work. High fantasy DnD? Not at all.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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When it comes to characters Gale and Karlach, they both share a very similar hurdle; a ticking time bomb in their chest. Now, the game prides itself to have tough choices with consequences, but in this case, there's only consequences without any choices. Putting Gale and Karlach side by side like that really highlights what a raw deal Karlach got. You wrote the comparison really well. I appreciate that not everything in life is fair, and there's a place for bittersweet stories as well as triumphant ones... but yikes!
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Oct 2023
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And how in the world she's supposed to be fine with her (presumably) lover selling their soul to the same monsters that enslaved her? She'd literally rather die than stay in the House of Hope, Tav selling themselves out would be like a knife to the back for her. Oh but sending her back to Avernus, something she despises, is fine? You know, an ending that exists in game. Even before the 'extended scene'. What if Tav doesn't want Karlach to die or go back to Avernus? We are talking about a game where we can have solutions for every single companion. We can either kill them, doom them to their past (Astarion ascending, basically doing what Cazador did even if he likes it, Shadowheart can remain a Shar slave, Wyll can remain as a slave to Mizora and Zariel....) or we can prevent all of those. We can do literallly nothing for Karlach. And it's off for a game like BG, a game that already provides different outcomes for your companions, minus Karlach. Good, bad, bittersweet. Karlach's endings are all bad. Not sure why you are against all this, you'll still get your depressing ending anyway. It won't destroy your narrative. I wouldn't call it fine because in my opinion it shouldn't be an option at all. Karlach's story is about accepting that your time is running out, her character is all about tragedy and living your last days on your rules, sudden magical fix would simply be disrespectful towards the narrative. Same goes for the Avernus option, it is disrespectful towards the character that made peace with her fate and decided die in Faehrun on her own terms, but I also understand that Larian wanted something a little hopeful for her. As for other origin characters, she isn't some special case of having only bad endings, Wyll can lose his father or become slave to a demon like Karlach, Astarion can either become an abomination or live in the Underdark for the rest of his life and Shadowheart can either kill her parents or live in agony for the rest of her life. I don't know why you think Karlach was treated unfairly when it's clearly not the case
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Oct 2023
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When it comes to characters Gale and Karlach, they both share a very similar hurdle; a ticking time bomb in their chest. Now, the game prides itself to have tough choices with consequences, but in this case, there's only consequences without any choices. Putting Gale and Karlach side by side like that really highlights what a raw deal Karlach got. You wrote the comparison really well. I appreciate that not everything in life is fair, and there's a place for bittersweet stories as well as triumphant ones... but yikes! So you'd rather have a boring explanation with some magical bullshit that fixes everything instead of great story we already have? Yeah, Gale can be saved by Mystra, but she's a literal goddess of magic so knowing her has its profits, Karlach didn't have that luxury which is why we can make her last moments great after all she suffered. That makes it good from narrative standpoint
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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Okay, we all know that this discussion is going to end with folk still having different views, and that is fine. But as I've said before, please recognise when your point has been made and it's time to agree to disagree. And when we are debating, let's do our best to make the discussion friendly and constructive.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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