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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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Moving on to a new PSA for the ppl in the thread that actually enjoy being here to discuss Karlachs content endings and ideas for changes
Try your best to just ignore Conrad and tinheart, they are either trolling hard or actively ignoring the content in the thread weve all alrdy provided. Theres no point in engaging them further as it just derails the thread further.
Cheers!
#Justiceforkarlach
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Banned
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I was supposed to move away from this, but I kinda want to re-iterate myself from before and, perhaps, try to keep the thread on track. So here goes. Baldur's Gate 3 is a really good game, but there's some aspects in its narrative that grinds me the wrong way. When it comes to characters Gale and Karlach, they both share a very similar hurdle; a ticking time bomb in their chest. Now, the game prides itself to have tough choices with consequences, but in this case, there's only consequences without any choices. Let me explain: In the game's narrative, the player gets to help Gale, but no matter what the player's choice is, Karlach's is doomed. It's even worse considering their past, where Gale has had an easy childhood, silver platters all around, being a prodigy, and eventually is the cause of his own problems. Problems which get resolved by a deus ex machina style manner when Elminster pops up out of nowhere and stabilizes him. Karlach on the other hand is of a somewhat frowned upon race (Tieflings), her past is forced upon her with trauma after trauma, and in the end, no matter what the player's actions (or inactions) are, her arc remains the same and she cannot be helped. In a world where anything is possible from sleeping with gods and getting true resurrected from atoms, it's Karlach who cannot be helped. Larian might not have meant this, but it's quite close to slavery allegory, where after escaping captivity, you're never truly free and the only way to stay alive is to return to your "owner".
Here's some bullet points to show their differences:
Gale
Easy childhood
Gets rewarded from his actions (Sleeps with a goddess etc.)
His problem is his own doing, he chose to do it
Gets bailed out by a deus ex machina
Gets a satisfying ending
Karlach
Sold into slavery and forced into servitude
Her problem was forced upon her
Had no choice in her actions
Escapes slavery
Gets teased with hope many times to no avail
No matter the player actions during the game, she either dies, gets sent back to her slaver or loses her identity (Mindflayer)
Looking at these side by side, it just doesn't look good. Especially when there are many, many ways, in-game no less, that might help her. Here's some:
- Enriched infernal Iron. You can loot that, and it does nothing. Convenient.
- House of Hope & Raphael. I'm sure a demon/devil/whatever, who is a direct competitor to ZARIEL, might be interested in a transaction with SOUL COINS. You know, the infernal currency we find throughout the game?
- Divine intervention scroll? No? Anyone?
- Even Mizora might help, just to be spiteful. Or wanting a deal. Them winged ones sure like deals.
- During the game you can help multiple gods. Why wouldn't they want to repay that? Would be just another Tuesday for them.
- You have Withers at your camp. Why can't he true res Karlach for a fee? "But it's a game mechanic" you say? It's still a resurrection. Have permadeath if you think resurrection has no place in DnD.
- Speaking of True Res, Gale has a SCROLL of it later in the game. Perhaps he'd be willing to part with it. Or maybe his cheese buddy Deus Ex Elminster has solutions?
- Wish spell is in the game, Vlaakith uses it on you. After all we did for the world and gods, we'd sure love one wish spell. Is Vlaakith the only god who can wish?
- But, the most obvious are the Gondians. You know, the INFERNAL MECHANICS you save/meet, who have PERFECTED and UPGRADED the same engine Karlach has. Why is this completely brushed off? "But open heart surgery!" Oh come on. There are talking heads. You can sleep with a bear. Magic, gas forms, resurrections, telekineses, submarines and gods are around, and you draw a line at heart surgery?
- Hell, even Gortash might trade them schematics/newer engines for his life. Would fit perfectly with his character. All in all, it's a major narrative whiplash you get when you're told that Karlach cannot be cured. It's a damn common cold compared to Gale's problem, and he gets it fixed just like that. It's way too railroading into a "bittersweet" ending in a game, that prides itself to have choices that will mean something. Then let them mean something. "But we did all we could" Karlach's fiery, poignant and bittersweet endings would work if the game was set in another setting. Set in the modern, real world? Most definitely. Sci-fi? Most probably. Low fantasy? So and so, but could work. High fantasy DnD? Not at all. Not every problem is fixable, that's the whole point of her story. Plus we have two choices: let her become mindflayer and save her beloved city or go into Avernus with her. There is Wyll, there is Astarion, there is Shadowheart, it's not like Karlach's ending is some exception, except for Gale and Lae'Zel the origin characters don't have happy endings and nobody's complaining except you guys. Her story fits the setting perfectly
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member
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Joined: Aug 2023
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The main issue is, that you are not allowed to try fixing her by the game. If Gondians tell me "sorry we can't fix her, because her heart wil explode during the surgery", if Mizora tells me "sorry I cannot help you, because hells order abc123" forbids me to help you" then it will be completely fine. But isn't it strange, that if I play as a good character and romance Karlach, I not able to speak with them about the fix? I can speak with all npcs in the game, very often about nonsense (in a good way), but I'm not allowed to speak about the most important thing for my Tav with npcs directly connected to hell, Zariel and infernal engines?
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Oct 2023
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Moving on to a new PSA for the ppl in the thread that actually enjoy being here to discuss Karlachs content endings and ideas for changes
Try your best to just ignore Conrad and tinheart, they are either trolling hard or actively ignoring the content in the thread weve all alrdy provided. Theres no point in engaging them further as it just derails the thread further.
Cheers!
#Justiceforkarlach So, i'm "trolling" and not allowed to discuss anything because I dare to have different opinion that yours and I'm actually able to form arguments to defend my opinion? I thought that was the point of the discussion and that was the place to do exactly that - discuss
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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So you'd rather have a boring explanation with some magical bullshit that fixes everything instead of great story we already have? Yeah, Gale can be saved by Mystra, but she's a literal goddess of magic so knowing her has its profits, Karlach didn't have that luxury which is why we can make her last moments great after all she suffered. That makes it good from narrative standpoint Okay, let's take a step back here. I never said that I would like Karlach's story to resolve the same way as Gale's. Frankly, Gale is my least favourite of the origin companions. To me, his story has bad fanfic energy. The Elminster stuff is particularly cringe. In all honesty, I actually think that Karlach's story, as it is now, is better written. Her sad ending is bittersweet and respects the values she's insisted on from the start. Her more hopeful ending lets her re-evaluate that in the context of the relationships she's forged (and is decently open-ended - who knows what she and her companion(s) might achieve together to change things up?). Nonetheless, I think Kneecap makes a valid point that the story bends over backwards for Gale and seems to put as much effort into boxing Karlach in. I had not considered the potentially problematic parallels that Kneecap highlighted before reading that post. Can't we all learn something from each other's perspectives?
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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And how in the world she's supposed to be fine with her (presumably) lover selling their soul to the same monsters that enslaved her? She'd literally rather die than stay in the House of Hope, Tav selling themselves out would be like a knife to the back for her. Oh but sending her back to Avernus, something she despises, is fine? You know, an ending that exists in game. Even before the 'extended scene'. What if Tav doesn't want Karlach to die or go back to Avernus? We are talking about a game where we can have solutions for every single companion. We can either kill them, doom them to their past (Astarion ascending, basically doing what Cazador did even if he likes it, Shadowheart can remain a Shar slave, Wyll can remain as a slave to Mizora and Zariel....) or we can prevent all of those. We can do literallly nothing for Karlach. And it's off for a game like BG, a game that already provides different outcomes for your companions, minus Karlach. Good, bad, bittersweet. Karlach's endings are all bad. Not sure why you are against all this, you'll still get your depressing ending anyway. It won't destroy your narrative. I wouldn't call it fine because in my opinion it shouldn't be an option at all. Karlach's story is about accepting that your time is running out, her character is all about tragedy and living your last days on your rules, sudden magical fix would simply be disrespectful towards the narrative. Same goes for the Avernus option, it is disrespectful towards the character that made peace with her fate and decided die in Faehrun on her own terms, but I also understand that Larian wanted something a little hopeful for her. As for other origin characters, she isn't some special case of having only bad endings, Wyll can lose his father or become slave to a demon like Karlach, Astarion can either become an abomination or live in the Underdark for the rest of his life and Shadowheart can either kill her parents or live in agony for the rest of her life. I don't know why you think Karlach was treated unfairly when it's clearly not the case Here is the thing though: Wyll already was a slave to a demon. He did sell himself to Mizora in order to save the city, after all. He gets to either take his freedom and risk his father, or continue serving Mizora. And I say "risk his father", because after all you can save him. Sure, Mizora said she wouldn't stop, but at least you have a fighting chance. As for Astarion, being forced to live in the underdark is a bit different than being forced to go back to your slaver. From what I recall, he didn't even hate the place and called it beautiful - sure, he loved being able to walk in the sun again, but it's still vastly different from having to choose death vs going back to the place that carries a lot of trauma for you. With Shadowheart it's also more of a free choice - her parents want to set her free, and she can accept that, or she can accept the pain that she already dealt with. None of these are perfect fairytale endings. But you know what all of these have in common? You tried, you explored the options you were presented with, you looked at the options the game gave you, both in mentions and in mechanics, and used them. With Karlach, that's not the case. It's giving up before trying. You watch the situation unfold and are forced to just stand by and do nothing, when you clearly could. We don't try to do anything, except go to an apprentice smith and hand him two pieces of infernal iron. There is not even a follow up with the Gondians - you free them and then you can't even inquire about the engine, even though they clearly are the experts? Mind you, they are just one avenue out of many that they show us before refusing to allow us to explore it. It's like having a broken leg and watching it get infected and going "well, thats it, I'm going to die" instead of at least trying to let a doctor take a look at it. That is the main issue with the storyline as it is right now. It's one thing to have some tragedy and a price to be paid, another to railroad the player into it and forcing inaction to the point that it honestly feels like they and the companions do not care, as opposed to trying and failing.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Moving on to a new PSA for the ppl in the thread that actually enjoy being here to discuss Karlachs content endings and ideas for changes
Try your best to just ignore Conrad and tinheart, they are either trolling hard or actively ignoring the content in the thread weve all alrdy provided. Theres no point in engaging them further as it just derails the thread further.
Cheers!
#Justiceforkarlach I think this is a little bit unfair. At least Conrad has constructive feedback, he just sees things differently than the majority here.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Wyll can lose his father or become slave to a demon like Karlach, Astarion can either become an abomination or live in the Underdark for the rest of his life and Shadowheart can either kill her parents or live in agony for the rest of her life. I don't know why you think Karlach was treated unfairly when it's clearly not the case Well, the most obvious point being none of them dying. Also, you can save Wyll's father AND get him out of the pact (although I suppose that leaves his dad in the permanent danger of Mizora taking hers), the drawback that has on Wyll is his forever changed form and him losing his powers. And if I may re-iterate, most of us have been discussing that Karlach's "good ending" would likely include some trade off or a catch as well. Losing powers, being hunted, shortened lifespan, Tav in a pact, etc etc. That would be on par with others. As of now she gets the shortest end of the stick, and maybe that's by design, but that makes some people sad, not content after a game well played. I do agree with The Red Queen, you've made your point loud and clear. If you want to continue the debate, however, may I also repeat such statements as "Unexpectedly surviving does not diminish realizations you have while staring death in the face", "Stories about mistaken terminal illnesses like that have been written for decades and learning that the main character survives at the end has been nothing but cathartic for the viewers, so such stories are not cheap" and "People are different and their reactions to media are shaped by their own experiences therefore not everyone considers 'the character who suffered for a considerable chunk of her life dies in the end' a satisfactory story arc, especially in a high fantasy and a choice-based game with ending reactivity"? Like, we already admitted that you're valid in your liking of the endings. "Agree to disagree" may very well be the point here. People are different. (dear mods I am so sorry you had to keep an eye on this thread for the last couple days :") )
![[Linked Image from tarraxahum.neocities.org]](https://tarraxahum.neocities.org/buttons/2rdo1pL.png)
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member
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And how in the world she's supposed to be fine with her (presumably) lover selling their soul to the same monsters that enslaved her? She'd literally rather die than stay in the House of Hope, Tav selling themselves out would be like a knife to the back for her. Oh but sending her back to Avernus, something she despises, is fine? You know, an ending that exists in game. Even before the 'extended scene'. What if Tav doesn't want Karlach to die or go back to Avernus? We are talking about a game where we can have solutions for every single companion. We can either kill them, doom them to their past (Astarion ascending, basically doing what Cazador did even if he likes it, Shadowheart can remain a Shar slave, Wyll can remain as a slave to Mizora and Zariel....) or we can prevent all of those. We can do literallly nothing for Karlach. And it's off for a game like BG, a game that already provides different outcomes for your companions, minus Karlach. Good, bad, bittersweet. Karlach's endings are all bad. Not sure why you are against all this, you'll still get your depressing ending anyway. It won't destroy your narrative. I wouldn't call it fine because in my opinion it shouldn't be an option at all. Karlach's story is about accepting that your time is running out, her character is all about tragedy and living your last days on your rules, sudden magical fix would simply be disrespectful towards the narrative. Same goes for the Avernus option, it is disrespectful towards the character that made peace with her fate and decided die in Faehrun on her own terms, but I also understand that Larian wanted something a little hopeful for her. As for other origin characters, she isn't some special case of having only bad endings, Wyll can lose his father or become slave to a demon like Karlach, Astarion can either become an abomination or live in the Underdark for the rest of his life and Shadowheart can either kill her parents or live in agony for the rest of her life. I don't know why you think Karlach was treated unfairly when it's clearly not the case Here is the thing though: Wyll already was a slave to a demon. He did sell himself to Mizora in order to save the city, after all. He gets to either take his freedom and risk his father, or continue serving Mizora. And I say "risk his father", because after all you can save him. Sure, Mizora said she wouldn't stop, but at least you have a fighting chance. As for Astarion, being forced to live in the underdark is a bit different than being forced to go back to your slaver. From what I recall, he didn't even hate the place and called it beautiful - sure, he loved being able to walk in the sun again, but it's still vastly different from having to choose death vs going back to the place that carries a lot of trauma for you. With Shadowheart it's also more of a free choice - her parents want to set her free, and she can accept that, or she can accept the pain that she already dealt with. None of these are perfect fairytale endings. But you know what all of these have in common? You tried, you explored the options you were presented with, you looked at the options the game gave you, both in mentions and in mechanics, and used them. With Karlach, that's not the case. It's giving up before trying. You watch the situation unfold and are forced to just stand by and do nothing, when you clearly could. We don't try to do anything, except go to an apprentice smith and hand him two pieces of infernal iron. There is not even a follow up with the Gondians - you free them and then you can't even inquire about the engine, even though they clearly are the experts? Mind you, they are just one avenue out of many that they show us before refusing to allow us to explore it. It's like having a broken leg and watching it get infected and going "well, thats it, I'm going to die" instead of at least trying to let a doctor take a look at it. That is the main issue with the storyline as it is right now. It's one thing to have some tragedy and a price to be paid, another to railroad the player into it and forcing inaction to the point that it honestly feels like they and the companions do not care, as opposed to trying and failing. Very nicely said
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Oct 2023
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So you'd rather have a boring explanation with some magical bullshit that fixes everything instead of great story we already have? Yeah, Gale can be saved by Mystra, but she's a literal goddess of magic so knowing her has its profits, Karlach didn't have that luxury which is why we can make her last moments great after all she suffered. That makes it good from narrative standpoint Okay, let's take a step back here. I never said that I would like Karlach's story to resolve the same way as Gale's. Frankly, Gale is my least favourite of the origin companions. To me, his story has bad fanfic energy. The Elminster stuff is particularly cringe. In all honesty, I actually think that Karlach's story, as it is now, is better written. Her sad ending is bittersweet and respects the values she's insisted on from the start. Her more hopeful ending lets her re-evaluate that in the context of the relationships she's forged (and is decently open-ended - who knows what she and her companion(s) might achieve together to change things up?). Nonetheless, I think Kneecap makes a valid point that the story bends over backwards for Gale and seems to put as much effort into boxing Karlach in. I had not considered the potentially problematic parallels that Kneecap highlighted before reading that post. Can't we call learn something from each other's perspectives? It's not a place to discus Gale so I'll be quick about it. I don't find him particularly interesting either, but he's supposed to be pretty powerful wizard who happens to date a goddess of magic. Whether we like it or not, he'll have quite a lot more options to solve his issues than just a slave that escaped hellish army. The contrast is pretty realisitic and gives a nice flavor to the story, at least for me
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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Your discussion* is her endings are fine. Dont change anything
- we give clear ways hinted at abd reasons why the engine can be ficxd and desire a change (..the WHOLE concept of this thread) you say no - give in all honesty- horrible reasons from a writing stand point in any form be it novel or cinema as to why ANY change to a game with player choice at its core is acceptable.
Your not discussing anything you are just bashing the community that would like another ending to her story.
But apparantly 2 fetch quests that can be ignored to get the same *slightly varied* depressed endings is peak game play and story for you. And thats great i am legit glad your happy with it. But you are not content with enjoying the game as is...instead you come here and complain about what were wanting.
So yeah, id say ignoring you is the best path forward for this thread *shrug*
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Nonetheless, I think Kneecap makes a valid point that the story bends over backwards for Gale and seems to put as much effort into boxing Karlach in. I had not considered the potentially problematic parallels that Kneecap highlighted before reading that post. Can't we call learn something from each other's perspectives? Not only that, if you look at the journal and compare her questline to the rest of origin companions... it's just laughable. You don't even scroll. Everyone can get their good ending, Wyll can become a duke and Shadowheart can live well with a romanced Tav - she literally gets a sweet scene with Tav discussing their future. 'Bad endings' my buttocks, to say the least. Astarion, granted is a vampire so it's to be expected for him to burn under the sun and i've actually seen Astarion fans complaining about his ending being shown as a 'joke'. Yet, he gets a nice scene with Tav and he's alive as since he got his revenge which is what he wanted the most. Karlach wanted to live in her city. She didn't get it.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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It's not a place to discus Gale so I'll be quick about it. I don't find him particularly interesting either, but he's supposed to be pretty powerful wizard who happens to date a goddess of magic. Whether we like it or not, he'll have quite a lot more options to solve his issues than just a slave that escaped hellish army. The contrast is pretty realisitic and gives a nice flavor to the story, at least for me Yeah, it's not a thread for Gale, so I won't comment further on that front. The thing is that, while it's understandable that Karlach's circumstances are tougher than his, Karlach has friends and allies available to help her (including Gale himself) - and, as many have commented, those allies include master inventors who may owe us a debt of honour in a lot of playthroughs. (They certainly do in mine! The number of reloads I needed to save every last one of them from their own terrible AI was preposterous!) To not even be able to bring that up - to not have the option to even try, when Karlach can be a really important person to our characters - is quite jarring. Even if it could be discussed, and they said they would try to fix her engine, but we simply ended up not having enough time... That would at least respect the care involved. And I think in a version of the game where the developers had as much time to polish Act 3 as they did Acts 1 and 2, that probably would have happened.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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if you look at the journal and compare her questline to the rest of origin companions... it's just laughable. You don't even scroll. Oh gosh, you're right. Even the questline for The High Harper scrolls, and she doesn't join us until the end of Act 2!
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Banned
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Nonetheless, I think Kneecap makes a valid point that the story bends over backwards for Gale and seems to put as much effort into boxing Karlach in. I had not considered the potentially problematic parallels that Kneecap highlighted before reading that post. Can't we call learn something from each other's perspectives? Not only that, if you look at the journal and compare her questline to the rest of origin companions... it's just laughable. You don't even scroll. Everyone can get their good ending, Wyll can become a duke and Shadowheart can live well with a romanced Tav - she literally gets a sweet scene with Tav discussing their future. 'Bad endings' my buttocks, to say the least. Astarion, granted is a vampire so it's to be expected for him to burn under the sun and i've actually seen Astarion fans complaining about his ending being shown as a 'joke'. Yet, he gets a nice scene with Tav and he's alive as since he got his revenge which is what he wanted the most. Karlach wanted to live in her city. She didn't get it. And she lives in pain for the rest of her life. Karlach can go to Avernus with two friends (or lover) to fight for new life. Not fairy tale but quite on point with the rest of the companions. So yeah, we still have a choice about Karlach and she can become mindflayer which is unique thing for companion
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Heck, if we had a mini quest in Avernus related to Karlach - house of hope could have been a good start but nooo, once again related to Lae'zel's questline! We could find ways to fight for her heart, meeting Zariel, her giving her some sort of ultimatum or something (some kind of a trade off much like with Shadowheart).
But no, we don't even try. The game literally doesn't allow us to try.
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stranger
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stranger
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Gonna throw a thought in after lurking (I haven't seen it said yet, could be hidden in these 100+ pages): if they do end up creating a definitive edition, perhaps they could have it like they do with D:OS2 where you can play the original or DE. So those that like the current endings can still have them with the original and the DE with updated.
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Heck, if we had a mini quest in Avernus related to Karlach - house of hope could have been a good start but nooo, once again related to Lae'zel's questline! We could find ways to fight for her heart, meeting Zariel, her giving her some sort of ultimatum or something (some kind of a trade off much like with Shadowheart).
But no, we don't even try. The game literally doesn't allow us to try. Because Zariel would've curbstomped our party without much trouble. As for House of Hope, Karlach wouldn't deal with the devil and wouldn't want us to do that. And we tried with Dammon but failed, Gondians couldn't help us, Steel Watch couldn't do it as couldn't Gortash (if he could, he'd try to bail himself out). I know with all the cheesy options that are possible in dnd we could try more, but then we should ask why we couldn't do the same for all other companions. Or ourselves, why can't we make a deal with some demon or Mystra to get the tadpole out?
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I feel like everyone arguing focuses way too much on the narrative point, which it's literally very normal to disagree on, because it's fiction, that's how it works, and more or less ignores the fact that we do, in fact, provide gameplay/mechanics reasoning (short quest, player influence, my head hurts I won't list all of that), which is valid to critique (just as Larian is free not to take that critique into account). "I think her story is satisfactory as is" - Good! You like that type of stories, and we don't, that's a normal human condition. It's literally an agree to disagree type of a thing. "It's totally normal that some origins got significantly less (sometimes almost twice as little iirc) scenes/locations/quest stages/plot forks than some others and it's mean-spirited and ungrateful to point that out about a character you like" - Really? Really-really? Like. Genuinely?Gonna throw a thought in after lurking (I haven't seen it said yet, could be hidden in these 100+ pages): if they do end up creating a definitive edition, perhaps they could have it like they do with D:OS2 where you can play the original or DE. So those that like the current endings can still have them with the original and the DE with updated. Oh hey, didn't know that D:OS2 allowed that. Would be perfect, in the theoretical scenario where something happens.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Because Zariel would've curbstomped our party without much trouble. As for House of Hope, Karlach wouldn't deal with the devil and wouldn't want us to do that. And we tried with Dammon but failed, Gondians couldn't help us, Steel Watch couldn't do it as couldn't Gortash (if he could, he'd try to bail himself out). I know with all the cheesy options that are possible in dnd we could try more, but then we should ask why we couldn't do the same for all other companions. Or ourselves, why can't we make a deal with some demon or Mystra to get the tadpole out? Hey now, we stood before Shar and all she did was throw exposition at us while being a massive bitch and giving poor Shadowheart some horrible memories back. I'm sure we'd be fine in the face of Zariel and if not.. a nice game over, like mocking Vlaakith. Dammon only tried with normal infernal iron. Gondians didn't even try. Combined they didn't try. Remember, Raphael wanted to make a deal with us to get rid of the tadpole, but he was waiting until we had no other options left so we didn't get a chance to sweeten the deal. However, it never got to that because the tadpole ended up no longer being our biggest concern, so he offered something else instead. You can ask Elminster why Mystra doesn't do anything and he'll say that we don't realize how impactful we truly are. She doesn't want to get rid of our tadpoles because she wants Gale to suicide bomb the Absolute and the tadpole lets us infiltrate.
Last edited by Michieltjuhh; 21/10/23 08:10 PM.
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