Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

Heck, if we had a mini quest in Avernus related to Karlach - house of hope could have been a good start but nooo, once again related to Lae'zel's questline! We could find ways to fight for her heart, meeting Zariel, her giving her some sort of ultimatum or something (some kind of a trade off much like with Shadowheart).

But no, we don't even try. The game literally doesn't allow us to try.

Gonna throw a thought in after lurking (I haven't seen it said yet, could be hidden in these 100+ pages): if they do end up creating a definitive edition, perhaps they could have it like they do with D:OS2 where you can play the original or DE. So those that like the current endings can still have them with the original and the DE with updated.

Because Zariel would've curbstomped our party without much trouble. As for House of Hope, Karlach wouldn't deal with the devil and wouldn't want us to do that. And we tried with Dammon but failed, Gondians couldn't help us, Steel Watch couldn't do it as couldn't Gortash (if he could, he'd try to bail himself out). I know with all the cheesy options that are possible in dnd we could try more, but then we should ask why we couldn't do the same for all other companions. Or ourselves, why can't we make a deal with some demon or Mystra to get the tadpole out?

I feel like everyone arguing focuses way too much on the narrative point, which it's literally very normal to disagree on, because it's fiction, that's how it works, and more or less ignores the fact that we do, in fact, provide gameplay/mechanics reasoning (short quest, player influence, my head hurts I won't list all of that), which is valid to critique (just as Larian is free not to take that critique into account).

"I think her story is satisfactory as is" - Good! You like that type of stories, and we don't, that's a normal human condition. It's literally an agree to disagree type of a thing.

"It's totally normal that some origins got significantly less (sometimes almost twice as little iirc) scenes/locations/quest stages/plot forks than some others and it's mean-spirited and ungrateful to point that out about a character you like" - Really? Really-really? Like. Genuinely?


Oh hey, didn't know that D:OS2 allowed that. Would be perfect, in the theoretical scenario where something happens.

Hey now, we stood before Shar and all she did was throw exposition at us while being a massive bitch and giving poor Shadowheart some horrible memories back. I'm sure we'd be fine in the face of Zariel and if not.. a nice game over, like mocking Vlaakith.

Dammon only tried with normal infernal iron. Gondians didn't even try. Combined they didn't try.

Remember, Raphael wanted to make a deal with us to get rid of the tadpole, but he was waiting until we had no other options left so we didn't get a chance to sweeten the deal. However, it never got to that because the tadpole ended up no longer being our biggest concern, so he offered something else instead. You can ask Elminster why Mystra doesn't do anything and he'll say that we don't realize how impactful we truly are. She doesn't want to get rid of our tadpoles because she wants Gale to suicide bomb the Absolute and the tadpole lets us infiltrate.

It's been a hot minute since I first played D:OS2 and am slowly working my way through the DE, but the launcher allows you to choose which version you want. I probably should have specified that I'm not 100% that is the case, but I have a strong feeling that it is. Regardless, that's an option they could take.

Exactly, how it is possible to have completed quest with "We did everything we could to save Karlach" note, when we didn't even try? The missing possibilities and dialogs with Dammon, Gondians, even Mizora and Raphael about engine fix are so obvious and yet some people still say, that story is great and absolutely fine.

Because it is. One more dialogue where someone says they can't fix her won't change that. We already knowDammon can't fix that, Gortash doesn't even try to save himself with a deal and Steel Watcher says that her engine is an old model that should be scrapped (and correct me if i'm wrong, scrapping the engine out of Karlach would kill her). When it comes to Mizora or Raphael, dealing with them would be like stabbing Karlach in the back considering she's close to mental breakdown when she enters House of Hope. Hell, that's why I think that dragging her back to Avernus shouldn't even be an option. It's a great tragedy current endings already dimnish it, I can't imagine taking it even further.

I talk about narrative because that's what most important to me. And because gameplay isn't good argument, you can have her permanently in your party so every adventure you have on your way is you two

Very politely, if a bit tiredly: Can't you just. See that we will never agree on what makes a good narrative here and how that narrative interacts with context? Like we got your point, and you clearly aren't open to changing your view either, do you really expect us to see the error of our ways and stop talking? What's the end goal of the debate here, genuinely? I'm always down for a good discussion of different views, but by now it's obvious there's no common ground to be found here. Especially if the gameplay standpoint is a non-argument for you, and that's like at least 50% of what we're talking about, if not more.

We aren't hurting anyone by sitting in a separate thread and "whining" about our questionable tastes in tragedies and dreams for an equal content amount.

And if you're afraid that Larian will actually change something because of us (which, again, they won't if they don't deem it a reasonable addition) and somehow that would ruin your whole enjoyment of the game, then I'm afraid whatever damage we could do we have already done.

As I said two pages ago:


It's perfectly okay to just stop, or talk about something else, rather than replying to people you disagree with once it's clear you're just going round in circles. After all, not everyone can have the last word so if all parties keep trying to then we just go round and round and round. Please consider being the bigger person and just letting things slide .

Oh, and I am purposely not directing this to one individual, and I'll let folk decide themselves whether or not it could reasonably apply to them.

Once again, for the 97th time (circa):

Karlach's engine was meant to be fixable, this is supported by several things (Fazer recording dialogue for Dammon fixing the engine / the items we find / the questlog being as short as it is)

It's useless to discuss on wether you prefer it like it is right now or not, chekhov's gun is not an opinion; it's a narrative shortcoming.

If some people want so desperately to prove their point that "this is a tragedy" they should advocate for the removal of the stuff that clearly point at it not being meant to be a tragedy. If you DON'T think some elements should be removed or rearranged to make her a doomed character it means you are selectively choosing to ignore them. That isn't good narrative, you know? Seeing what you want to see while ignoring what doesn't fit your headcanon doesn't make a story good. It just means you got married to an idea and are willing to ignore the points that might make it seem less appealing.

I don't bring conjecture, those are cold hard facts.
You are allowed to like the ending as it is, it's your god given right.
You are however for the love of all that is holy NOT allowed to keep ignoring the elements that got people discussing in the first place, if you all want to toss your two cents in this you should at a minimum consider all the elements present. entitled to your own opionion and all that, but if you blatantly keep ignoring the elements (in game and outside it) that make your arguments crumble, that's not a very good look for you.

I never typed "Chekhov's gun" so much in my life like this entire thread, jeez.

But it is not true. Exactly these few dialogs will close the whole issue, you will know for sure, that you can't help her. In actual state we are all looking for obvious solution which should be in game (and Im 100% sure, that the gondians were ment to be the solution), but we cannot find it, because it is not implemented. Damon should use enriched infernal ore which is in the game but doesn't have any purpose. Why? Because he can't. Gondians better not speak to you at all. Why? My romanced character stays next to me and I'm not able to say can you fix her? Why? Raphael and Mizora can help us, of course Karlach can hates us then, but is is my choise, Im Tav, not her. Can I ask them? No. Why? What steel watcher told us doesn't really matter. Yes she had old engine and should be scrapper and what? We're still looking for solution, we already know that she can die. BG3 is awesome game, I think one of the best ever, but the removed content hurts. And that Act3 is not completed is known thing, it is basically mentioned in every BG3 review.

Finally well said.

I must say, it's been interesting following the past couple of pages. Sudden influx of people who would die on the hill that is "Karlach deserves to die because tragedy is storytelling and she's doomed and sometimes shit just be like that".

Okay, let's for a second give the fellas a moment shall we. Indulge me, please, why don't you.

To those who choose to still think that Karlach deserves to die or go back to hell, despite everything my friends have said so eloquently multiple times over, I want to ask: Why do you believe she deserves to die? How would the option of furthering the quest with Dammon and the Gondians hurt the overall story? How would a late Act 3 quest and success in making her able to durvive on the material plane make the story worse? Especially if the choices we have now remain, as that is what we've said all along we want.

Why does (specifically) Karlach deserve to die? Why doesn't Gale? Why doesn't Astarion? Lae'zel, Shadowheart, Wyll?

Why do you think that she, specifically, deserves to die? Why does it have to be her? Why is it better she dies than we try to use the items and allies already implemented in the game to try and help her?

This is a genuine question and we know the answers to the opposite, because we've 103 pages of those. Now all I've heard from "the opposition" is that it should *just be* like that. Because. Because sometimes shit happens to good people.

But aren't the other companions good people? Who are we to decide that Karlach's just the odd one out, even when compared to the temporaries?

If it was meant to be fixable they would have done this. Maybe they planned it but during the development they just decided it won't be. Right now they seem happy with the ending, and they even stated multiple times that not every companion will have a good ending

Well it's really simple - the devs decided that and there's no helping with that. There are many fictional characters who suffered an unfair fate, so I don't exactly get your point. Someone above mentioned thay Dammon's VA recorded the finish to her questline or something like that. If it was true, why would they cut it from the game?

Well, for me her engine was never supposed to be fixable (same as V's Relic in Cyberpunk) so I naturally assumed that the little hints were just supposed to be that - hints that ultimately fail. I see now that at least among this small group of players (to be honest I've never seen anyone complaining about anything outside here) that's the issue so yeah. Enriched iron should be removed and few lines from Gondians should obviously be added to make clear that the engine is impossible to fix if that helps.

No offence, but you seem a bit too emotional when it comes to just a fictional character. You make it seem like me (and the few others that agree with me) have some weird hatred towards Karlach but that's not the case. I already explained that but maybe I wasn't clear enough so I'll try to be now. For me, personally it's all about the narrative and narrative is the most important part of the story (once again, for me). The option to fix her engine would break that narrative because some sudden magical fix would be something propably 90% of the players would chose, making her whole story invalid. For example, imagine if V suddenly got the option to just fix their brain without going to Mikoshi or dealing with FIA without any conseqences (or very minor ones), obviously people would pick that and render rest of the choices mostly not used. Hell, that's already the case in Witcher 3, the ending where Ciri dies is mostly got by accident. Same for Mass Effect 3, people are biased towards Destroy ending because that's the only one where Shephard can survive so for many it's not really a choice. Same thing here. Karlach's story is about accepting unavoidable death, what's the point of accepting it if everything can be fixed at the very end? You talked about other companions, the thing is their stories are about something different. Lae'Zel is about breaking free from toxic enviroment, Gale is about overcoming the odds. If Karlach suddenly got fixed, that would just make her female Gale, why tell the same story twice? Astarion for example is about overcoming trauma, we don't see people complaining that we can't cure him out of vampirism.

Well Karlach for me its Unfixable and proof of that its the State of the game know..
Since they Start Trying to Fix her and Minthara they Broke All other Romances and Most of the Game..
and Since 3.0 i just had to Gave up on the Game becouse of that..
She was Shoehorned at the Last Moment and actually Broke the Narrative of the Game in my Opinion, so i always treat her like a NPC becouse for me she dosent Worth a single beat bringing into the Fold
Becouse of the AMOUNT of Bugs she brings to the game with her..
The Only Single Run i Made with her was the Worst Experience i had in this Game and i Beated already 7 times and have dont know 500 hrs so far going to 600.
Sorry for Her Fans but she is Unfixable.. Better just Cut her out of the Stuff and make her a NPC for Wyll quest.. Same as Halsin.. he would work better as a NPC at your camp.
Yu would still be able to Romance her and all but she would just Become a Especial NPC.. like others in this game.

Cutting her out is a bit harsh but I can totally understand devs just giving up on her, since there is so much trouble with her. After all they basically get perfect scores everywhere, so it's only natural they will want to keep majority happy, and hey as much as people here hate to admit it just Astarion alone is more popular than her, now add literally all other companions to the mix and the answer becomes obvious