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member
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Joined: Aug 2023
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H I still think all of this kind of boils down to Upper City and how it was cut. Larian can (and will), of course, always say that every game has cut content and what they did release, was the intended version (saying anything other than that would be a PR disaster). But there's just one little thing. The Community Update #19 - Mechs and the City, from 12th of June, a bit over a month before the game released. It states:
"This weekend, we unveiled the city of Baldur's Gate for the very first time, with a glimpse behind its walls and around its familiar labyrinthine streets. It's been about 20 years since we last had a pint in the Elfsong Tavern or crawled through the sewers beneath the city streets and, as you might have spotted during the PC Gaming Show, many of these locations are back, and many news ones are waiting to be discovered for the first time - giving you a chance to explore the menacing roads of the Outer City, the opulent estates of the Upper City, and the dark alleys and pubs of the Lower City."
Where is this Upper City in the game? I am willing to bet actual money that Karlach's questline would have been featured heavily in that place, but for some reason (technical, performance or similar, most likely) it was cut, and some of the content was hastily plopped down to lower city, cutting the others either short or out of the game altogether. They did move up the release date in order not to compete against Starfield, so maybe something got seriously bugged out just before and they "did all they could" for BG3. Poignant, and fiery.
Maybe they will re-add it in the (most definitely) eventual Definitive/Tadpole/Goty/Whatever edition, maybe they will not. But there will be a definitive edition, as there's absolutely no reason not to. They can make it free, they can make it paid, but they will make it, and they will make a lot of money from it too. And good press as well. Yeah, imagine how much content to Karlachs quest isn't in the game, when Avernus (location basicaly dedicated to her) and upper city, where according datamined content (if it is true) her quest should really end with gondians. Maybe then the quest log can be really compared to other origin characters. I rememeber very well during my first playthourgh (I didn't know how the game will end or about this removed content) that I was basically not able to find doors to Casador mansion and then I figured out , that I had to go through ramparts, which felt very supsicious. After I saw removed content, it made much more sence.
Last edited by Rae; 22/10/23 03:20 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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Based on larians track record for DE, feedback and running themselves broke prior to almost every game release (which ends up being released with bugs or issues)
The chances of a DE edition is high, id even go so far as to say the chances of uppercity being added to the DE is high as it would tie in to almost every issue most ppl have with act 3.
Bg3 is their biggest cashcow game theyve ever made.
I think i said much earlier in the thread near mid sept their rough number for toal sales (bear in mind including the early access sales) was near half a BILLION .
Their lead designer actually *backtracked* on an earlier statment of absolutely no dlcs.
They KNOW continued content will rack in profit for them.
We just dont know 100% if they will do it cause larian keeps that stuff private til its a week before launch lol
But my hopes purely rest on larian seeming like a company that will see thst much extra influx of funds and will actively funnel some of that extra into a more beefed up and expanded DE as a thank you* to their supporters. I coukd be wrong but we really wont know til honestly next summer. Cause a year or so seems to be the standard for there DE releases after launch
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Technically we do explore two opulent estates in the Upper City - Ramazith's Tower and Cazador's mansion. Sounds suspiciously like marketing speak to me. Could be yeah. Still sad that all we see from 'upper city' are the insides of estates. What's weirder for me is the way we enter Cazador's palace as obviously the main gate to it is after the Upper City gate. I don't know if it's just me but I feel like the upper part of map has a whole lot of nothingness (more than the left and bottom parts of map) and gives me the feeling there was supposed to be another part of city but got blacked out/cut. Basically the map, if you press and move it around, there's just so much blackness. Or maybe i'm just reading too much into it haha. Exactly the same  And another thing is that you can even click on the Upper city enter, but Emperor tells you don't go there or something like that. I was 100% sure that It will allows me enter later.
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Joined: Aug 2023
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Thank you mods, both for giving them a break and trying to warn them. Kole seemed to be really trying to offer legitimate conversation but they just didn't care. Moving back on topic though! I did have an idea for an additional ending that isn't... well exactly what the thread is looking for, but something that I thought would be nice under specific circumstances. So this is specifically in regards to if your Tav becomes mind flayer. See one of my biggest problems is that I constantly flip on whether or not I want Tav to make that sacrifice instead of Orpheus. Even more so is the decision to unalive yourself at the end, as you feel yourself, or how I interpret it as your soul, ebbing away. We've seen very few mindflayers with genuine good personalities like Omeluum (I don't count the emperor as one), and it's not like it's a sustainable existence like being vampire where you can feed while both food and you survive. Not to mention everything around not having a soul. So I often think if my Tav goes this route, they would end themselves.
Problem is, this shatters the promise you can make to Karlach about being there when she dies. Not going to fully reiterate something I already wrote some 10s of pages back, but being there in someone's last moments, very important to me. So my brain thought of a horrible compromise.
Die together.
Very much the same scene that's already set. She's burning up, you know she doesn't want to go to the hells, and you as a mindflayer know you'll only be yourself for so long. Why not go together? Why not share one last hug, give her one last embrace as you both turn to ashes. Not spoiling the main part of your, uh, spoiler, but as far as the "die together" option goes - honestly, I could even take that with a Tav who didn't go the route you're describing. Like I'll be lying if I say I didn't have a rogue thought or two about hugging her at the last possible moment and going together. If there was an actual option for that? ...I might've. Does not fix the, uh, everything we've been pointing out in regards to her quest and endings, and a happy-ish option is obviously preferable, but if we're doing tragedy... Go full Romeo & Juliet on that ish :") Speaking of mindflayers, looked at illithid Karlach on YouTube the other day and hearing her voice that calm and monotone destroyed me. Sam did an amazing job as always, but also WHOMST the hell listens to that and says "Ah yes, that's Karlach, she's in there, it's all good"?! Brrr
![[Linked Image from tarraxahum.neocities.org]](https://tarraxahum.neocities.org/buttons/2rdo1pL.png)
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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Yeah, at this point I'd be shocked if there *isn't* a Definitive Edition, based on Larian's history.
Though my perception is likely being shaped by the fact that I really want one, of course. Partially to tie up some of the loose ends in the story like Karlach's story ending with a whimper in a very unsatisfying way, and part of it just for the sake of improving some basic quality of life stuff. (there's a *reason* I'm playing the game with around 7 different UI mods, for instance). I genuinely love BG3, but there's parts of it that could absolutely use some polish.
I guess we'll find out some time next year, if history is any guide.
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member
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Joined: Jul 2023
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Isn't also known the soul is gone the moment you undergo ceremorphosis? Basically, everything from you is gone - from soul to flesh and it's just the tadpole eating your memories and present them as you are said person. Karlach is not Karlach anymore; just a tadpole that took her memories... Withers says illithids have no soul. And he knows this stuff for obvious reasons.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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I know for a fact that the death option would’ve been much more fitting for me if we could have Tav, at least romancing Karlach, hug Karlach through the pain and agony of burning up, and burn up together after telling eavh other that they love each other, or together, or something along the lines of ‘I told you, you’d never have to do this alone. You and me, always’. It would make that ending slightly more appealing to me, not as much as Avernus, and especially not as much as trying to stabilize her forever. Obviously I want us to be able to try to help her and if you follow that quest and succeed, the options we have today wouldn’t be relevant. Mindflayer option is there because out of everybody else, she’s written as doomed, so that would vanish too and I’m here for it. I obviously also wish we could have the Emperor be persuaded to cooperate with Orpheus for the duration of the endgame, since it makes no sense for him to want to join the collective through the netherbrain after everything he’s done to avoid it but returning to Karlach, I wish that in the shittiest of alternatives which is dying, we could die with her. Edit: Also omg JusticeForKarlachsThread the trolls are gone 
Last edited by NomTheBurritos; 22/10/23 04:15 PM.
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member
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Joined: Aug 2023
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Isn't also known the soul is gone the moment you undergo ceremorphosis? Basically, everything from you is gone - from soul to flesh and it's just the tadpole eating your memories and present them as you are said person. Karlach is not Karlach anymore; just a tadpole that took her memories... Withers says illithids have no soul. And he knows this stuff for obvious reasons. Not gone, fully destroyed. Not really a big distinction for narrative purposes but it means normal methods of resurrection can't work. Even a Wish spell will struggle to bring the real person back in the tabletop based on DM discretion because Wish will typically replicate existing magic where it can, but reconstructing a soul destroyed by ceramorphosis is magic the likes of which couldn't be done with magic higher than level 9 that Mystra made impossible to use, and Wish is ONLY level 9.
Last edited by Auric; 22/10/23 05:04 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2023
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Isn't also known the soul is gone the moment you undergo ceremorphosis? Basically, everything from you is gone - from soul to flesh and it's just the tadpole eating your memories and present them as you are said person. Karlach is not Karlach anymore; just a tadpole that took her memories... Withers says illithids have no soul. And he knows this stuff for obvious reasons. and Not gone, fully destroyed. Not really a big distinction for narrative purposes but it means normal methods of resurrection can't work. Even a Wish spell will struggle to bring the real person back in the tabletop based on DM discretion because Wish will typically replicate existing magic where it can, but reconstructing a soul destroyed by ceramorphosis is magic the likes of which couldn't be done with magic higher than level 9 that Mystra made impossible to use, and Wish is ONLY level 9. Which makes Withers' statement make so little sense after you or Karlach become a mindflayer. He'll say "Appearances may change, but they do not mask the one within. This one I know". What exactly is left masked within if we/Karlach are supposed to be soulless? If all that's left is a mindflayer that copied our/her personality?
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Oooof, makes sense. Thanks for letting me know.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
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Possibly Withers is being... uh, politic. He doesn't want things to fall apart at a crucial moment.
But that's just me playing devil's advocate. Larian can homebrew their own rules about what may or may not have happened with your/Karlach's soul. I'd definitely throw out the whole soul-destroying bit if I were running a campaign.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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I would alter the soul destruction to what it was originally: your soul turns to evil. I think Larian put in soul destruction as a) substitute for alignment not thinking about the implications and b) a reasons to have Withers involved. So I agree with @Mictheltjuhn (on *something*  - Withers wouldn't say we haven't changed since Withers cares about souls above all else; this is his reason for opposing the dead three. While he prefers Kelmvor he was able to work with the the three in the past. The soul destruction plan changed that attitude.
The need for a mind flayer in the final act needs to be changed. The only reason its' there is to encourage people to use tadpole powers on a replay.
Last edited by KillerRabbit; 22/10/23 06:10 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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Eh, I can see how people would find the "together in death" thing better than what we have, but at that point you may as well just go with Karlach to Avernus instead of both of you dying. Personally, I think we already have enough sad and tragic endings for karlach without adding yet another one, I'd much rather see some possibility of a somewhat positive outcome, myself.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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I agree with you, 100 %. I don't want that, and when having to face the choices we have, I obviously went to Avernus because I'd rather die fighting for her there than give up. What we need is more hopeful ending, a more proper questline and everything we've covered here already. Tho, it was a simple pointing out that it's weird we couldn't even die with her. Like not even that option was given to us LOL
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Joined: Sep 2023
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Out of all the characters in the game, Minthara is the one that's closest to how we feel about Karlach given the options she currently has:
"You have endured so much, Karlach, and survived it all. You need not endure this pain in silence.
I know what is happening. The engine is failing. You are dying.
I will not let that happen. I hoped we might enjoy the spoils of the city, but we must return to Avernus at once.
We will make Zariel sorry she ever laid eyes on you."
If you tell her you can't go back, she says:
"Zariel is the last of your tormentors who lives. I will find her and punish her, whether you follow me or not.
Would you have me navigate the hells without a guide?"
If you tell her your time has come, she says:
"All of your strength, all of your passion... all of your fire. Extinguished. Such a waste.
I will never understand it, and I do not accept it. But if this is what you choose, I will stay with you until the end."
A true ride-or-die companion.
Last edited by Walking Kole; 22/10/23 07:54 PM.
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Yeah, Minthy really killed it with that one. Right in the feels.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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Were all Minthara right now ....minus the homicide for most of us i suppose lol
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As a side note: only Karlach has a trophy mutually exclusive with every other romance. Does this make her the canon option?
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Joined: Aug 2023
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I'd say there aren't any canon options in RPG games (unless the creators decide to make a comic and have to canonize one plot direction or another, not pointing any fingers)
But this is curious. Do none of the other romances have trophies exclusive to them?
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I'd say there aren't any canon options in RPG games (unless the creators decide to make a comic and have to canonize one plot direction or another, not pointing any fingers)
But this is curious. Do none of the other romances have trophies exclusive to them? Nope, only Karlach as I know so far. I know the night orchid trophy for Shadow but this one you can give it to her w/o romance.
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