Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous vs BG3

Instead of being vague, you could give specific examples of what you think is the "hardcore propaganda" being "shoved down your throat" (in a game that you play by your own choice). You might also provide evidence that many people find these things "revolting, disgusting and immoral" rather than just making the evidence-free assertion.

I wish this wasn't the 103 pg thread dedicated to comparing these two games.

There are interesting comparisons to make. Most have already been made. If you want to read them you have to wade through a bunch of landmines and fraught language and affective polarization.

It should probably have been closed on page 3, after the initial moderation warning was mostly ignored.

WotR has been out for two years already, I think we could maybe move on.

Heated and judgemental language about anyone’s political views, of whatever stripe, is not okay here. It is inappropriate on a forum about gaming and is not on topic. If folk want to talk about that, there are other places on the intranet.

And it’s definitely not on when that language is used specifically in challenge to moderator requests to avoid it, and when there has already been a reminder that moderation guidance should be respected in thread and any comments or queries picked up by private message.

Teclis23 will therefore be taking a break.

And I take on board Black_Elk’s suggestion that perhaps we should close this thread and start a new one. Outbreaks like this of folk not adhering to standards for constructive, civil and respectful debate with others who have different perspectives can make the thread unpleasant as well as tedious to wade through. I’ve been unwilling to do that because there’s also lots of good debate here, but let us ponder that suggestion.

If, in the meantime, someone does start a new thread with a thoughtful, constructive and balanced comparison of the games now both are out, then that could help decide the issue!

Isn't it great that the biggest BG3 thread is a celebration of the differences in the two best RPGs of recent times?
I say let it live on!

These two are my most played games.

I certainly don't want this thread closed. It is one of my most favorite threads in this forum, precisely because for me WotR is, hands down, the better game.

For now, the thread stays up. However, the conversation must focus on the games and the stories as expressed in their respective worlds, and not matters of real world race, sexuality, or politics, particularly statements to such effect which involve dehumanising or aggressively charged language. That is our only request here.

In the unlikely event of a lock of thread, a new one will be made that compares the games without the initial charged language by OP.

Just finished my second playthrough (Durge, after a Tav playthrough initially). Enjoyed the game immensely. It has its flaws (some very baffling design choices) but the goods are so immensely good that I still give it top marks.

For me, BG3 beats out WoTR pretty handily as a full RPG experience - even though I do love WoTR and think it does various elements better than BG3. But I am someone who highly value the non-combat side of RPG gameplay (exploration, problem solving, character ability interactivity with the world). In that regard, I think BG3 has overtake Deadfire as my "top gameplay" CRPG, whereas Planescape/Disco still definitely top from a pure storytelling perspective (since BG3's plot is pretty barebones by design).

I do find it interesting that BG3's core follows much more in the footsteps of games like Arcanum - with its very open-ended quest/scenario designs and world/ability interactivity, as opposed to the more constructed, restricted, beat-by-beat CRPG style of the Bioware and Pathfinder games.

As a HUGE Arcanum fanboy it is very validating to me to see BG3's succeed financially - to see that kind of more "open" CRPG approach explode into the mainstream, since I always felt like the Arcanum approach was a very valid evolution of CRPGs but died a very unfortunate death.

I would say, if you prefer the more constructed CRPG experience WoTR is definitely still a fantastic go-to for that type of CRPGs.
Though I find it hard to go back to Owlcat's encounter design nowadays.


I'm quite excited to see what kind of updates we'll get for BG3 and what part of its flaws get addressed. Ironically, I think I actually enjoyed Act3 the most, of all acts in BG3 - I do agree it has some really low lows, but also some extreme highs (some of the most interesting/fun set-pieces in CRPG I've experienced). Playing the Durge origin was also a treat in Act 3 - it honestly made me subscribe to the theory that Durge was meant to be the default story, before Larian chose to split it off into its own origin.

In terms of the drop in reactivity in Act 3 - I noticed that mostly with [Race] tags, but [Class] remained pretty solid throughout. The other thing I notice being a big drop in quality is the availability of Speak with the Dead targets.

STORY: BG3 >>> WOTR (matter of preference, IMO, WOTR story is cringeworthy and edgy)

WRITING: BG3 > WOTR (but BG3 is just less bad than WOTR)

COMPANIONS: BG3 > WOTR (Regill is great, Daeran is OK, rest are cliches. Clear Win for BG3)

GAYNESS: BG3 > WOTR

COMBAT: BG3 = WOTR (BG3 has superior encounter design, positioning has impact, tactical elements are present. In WOTR win or lose is decided only by how much pre-buffing you did. Install a mod that does all buffs in one click and you win Unfair. But! Still, breaking combat with OP builds of your own making and huge dmg numbers flying about are satisfying)

BUILD DIVERSITY: BG3 <<< WOTR (I love Pathfinder and theorycrafting, WOTR is much deeper mathematically)

GRAPHICS: BG3 >>> WOTR

VOICE ACTING, SOUND DESIGN, MUSIC: BG3 > WOTR

IMMERSION, ATMOSPHERE: BG3 > WOTR

KINGDOM MANAGEMENT: BG3 >>> WOTR (Yes, absence of it is a huge Win for BG3. Owlcat's "kingdom management systems can *** off)

CONSOLE VERSION: BG3 >>> WOTR (WOTR is unplayable on console)

LARIAN >>> OWLCAT (OWLCAT game releases are actual "early access" releases dressed as final versions. OWLCAT games start properly working (on PC only) only a year after release. Also, OWLCAT have extremely negative responses to criticism, releasing public rants about Youtubers who dare to point out the numerous flaws in their games)

Pretty much, but I'd argue on the second-to-last one that such a version isn't needed in the first place. Having to keep things cross-platform when the game was barely put together for the PC feels like a waste of resources that could go into polishing the original experience and adding things like the DM mode and the toolset (the latter we might not even get thanks to cross-platform).

I disagree with pretty much everything, especially the first 3.

The story of BG3 is full of holes and simply doesnt work when you look closer at it. The writing is severly inconsistent and often contradicting to what happens in the game.
And Larian can do exaxtly 3 character tropes. Which they use for the BG3 companions multiple times and the rest is filled out with sex and thirsting. None of the companions is especialy memorable outside of people simping over them.

I find the claim that wotr is more edgy in its story an interesting one. I feel as though Wrath has the trappings of edginess - demons, gore, etc - but they exist as a natural consequence of the story and events. To me edginess implies revelling in the dark and the gritty and the over the top, drawing attention to it and almost patting itself on the back for putting it in and crucially, edginess kind of ignores the impact of the darkness and gore, which I don't think Wrath ever does. I haven't played any of the evil paths so maybe that happens more in those, but I don't think the game ever glosses over the horror of what happens and in fact, I think it really commits to that horror and tragedy and what it's like on a more human scale, especially in the first two acts, but it still sprinkles that stuff in throughout. And in fairness to BG3, with the exception of durge, I don't think it's as edgy as I expected it to get either. Both games have their moments of it though, to be fair.

On a wider level, overall I think Wrath is the better story and, in my personal opinion, the better game overall but just in terms of story, I think Wrath is more coherent throughout. Its not perfect, but I always understood the motivations of everyone and understood how things broadly tied into each other. Both stories are actually fairly simple at their cores, I think the problem with BG3 is that there's just a lot of... vestigial stuff hanging onto the main plot. Like, the whole githyanki, orpheus plot. Really, there's nothing about the potential githyanki civil war that needs to be part of the main plot. All that matters is that the prism can protect us from becoming thralls. The gith plot doesn't actually inform the main story to any significant degree despite being ostensibly tied to it. The same goes for all the shar stuff. There's so much shar in act 2 specifically, and sharrans stole the prism, but ultimately as far as the main story is concerned, the shar bits function as plot devices and there didn't need to be as much focus put on it as there was. The result is a main plot that's just cluttered, a bunch if individual plots that don't inherently have a reason to connect to the plot.

Meanwhile in Wrath, every quest and plot is thematically tied to the main plot by virtue of it being a war zone that touches every single thing. But more than that, the actual main plot doesn't get cluttered with stuff that is entirely extraneous. It's not a perfect plot, but we don't have factions or sides doing their own thing entirely unconcerned with the main plot.

And just as a parting note here is my obligatory defense for the crusade management. I love it and think it makes the game better to have it in.

Same. I also would vehemently disagree with most of the meaningful comparison dimensions made above. And the ones I'd agree with, such as graphics and VA, are ones that are completely irrelevant to me.

I have played WotR 3 times already, BG3 I perhaps overplayed - started a second run through then abandoned it when I reached baldur's gate. I feel I have seen everything noteworthy (I did all companions quests, al major side quests etc) and the things I didn't like still annoy me, and push me away from replaying it. I enjoyed BG3 - a lot - but it didn't 'stay with me' in the way the WotR did (although I must admit to not liking crusade management....in the same way I disliked kingdom management).

Anyway, in WotR, I loved diverse the mythic paths, setting and the properly implemented mechanics of PF1. 5e is so simple by comparison and Larian couldn't get that right - which definitely impacted my enjoyment. BG3 is a visually more pleasing game, but I didn't find the story convincing - it was like they tried to shoehorn everything in to make it 'cool'. As various people have pointed out, the plot was riddled with inconsistencies, the tadpole proved no bother at all really and the final chapter felt incomplete and rushed compared to earlier parts of the game. I think a lot of people were won over by the companions and their stories (which I enjoyed) and the 'pretty visuals and cinematics. The latter don't matter to me - I would happily trade them for better game systems and tactical depth, or a more convincing story.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a Winner!

Oh you forgot to flick your finger in this corner of the map while casting x spell, while this quest still active within 69 pm to 420 AM??

Too bad. No secret ending for you

Roleplaying? What roleplaying. I'm busy pre-buffing and playing meaningless Clash of Clans-esque city mini games and too busy for actual adventuring.

Yeah, WotR is the by far better game. The only thing BG3 has is visuals, the name, and unhealthy simping for "mommy Karlach" and "Bear Sex Halsin".
Sadly sex sells for the masses and BG3 is the more successful game. Reality is rarely fair.

And you are right, replayability is much better in WotR. Each path adds a lot more content than a origin and the game does feel different despite most of it being the same. Meanwhile Larian cant even manage to make an evil path.

Replayability to pre-buff before every single fight lmao.

If you cant or dont want to engage in optimizing and pre buffing, unlike BG3 WotR has very customizable difficulty settings to adjust to your taste.

But good that you mention the secret ending. At least WotR has a secret ending (and normal endings).
Things that you can miss during playing.
Larian sadly decided to dumb things down in BG3 to prevent anyone from ever accidentally missing something because of their actions. Hence the consequence free tadpoles and Mass Effect 3 style ending selection.

The consequence-free tadpoles are an enormous letdown, that much I wholeheartedly agree with - especially in contrast with the previous game and...


Granted, the PF games are instead VERY arcane about certain endings and resolutions (and Kingmaker relied on you grinding out the kingdom layer, which was miserable). But we could have at least gotten a Mask of the Betrayer-like situation where you have an affliction and what seems like an easy way out/means to benefit from it, which come with (severe) consequences.

Not eating tadpoles could mean that you get periodical cravings or fits of feebleness (disadvantage on all checks or something) unless you rest or consume one, or eventually learn to resist the influence and shake them off - in return being able to defy the Emperor/Absolute on account of not being as well-attuned to them or something like that.

@The Red Queen @All

To clarify I don't want this thread locked. I used the subjunctive 'I wish' mood, because it seems that when threads lead off a certain way it creates throughlines downstream. I think our users have done this thread a lot of justice by walking point and moving the general convo off the landmines in good faith, and that makes me like to see the thread maintained as an exemplar of how people can de-escalate and achieve detante in order to still have a conversation that yields insight.

Affective polarization is insidious though, and it just makes fruitful conversations much harder. To use a BG3 turn of phrase, it has a way of worming back in again, and again.

This is because new people don't read the middle of a giant thread. They read the first page then the last page and most of what's in the middle is just sorta lost usually.

A counterpoint would probably be any of the megathreads in that section. These were merged together at various points with an eye towards keeping the conversation focused, but also that just makes the thread less active overall and then they become sort of archival. Stickies in-section can be the same way, but at least that way they do take the load off duplicate threads in the same section. As an example from another section, if we wanted a stickie in feedback say, it should maybe be for feedback subjects that constantly see new duplicate threads pop up on the same topic, as opposed to stuff like say Spells that were in EA at one point. Even though I enjoy Niara's thread and it is an example of a nice lead off from an OP, but the topic isn't as broad, and hasn't seen replies since we got most of the spells now. General section is harder though, because it's so general.

On topic...

WotR felt in every way closer to my BG2 memories and the gameplay is mechanically much closer to what I remember from playing those games. It was highly satisfying for me to play that game while waiting for BG3 to be built out during EA. It scratched all sorts of itches for me.

BG3 felt in every way closer to, I'm not sure what to call it, the feeling I had when I first played BG1? Which is ephemeral and I don't quite know how to put my finger on that. Where I just sort of marvel at how much I want to keep playing because... well I just can't help it! Hehe

I love them both, but also love them differently, if that makes sense.

^ This is the correct opinion to have, every other opinion is sub standard thus should be ignored (joke. or am I?)

Anyway,

I don't know if this allowed by mod or not but allow me to inform "muh RTwP" folk of this Kickstarter project:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/grapeocean/black-geyser-dlc-tales-of-the-moon-cult?ref=6hhijf

Black Geyser (game already exist) is a RTwP game that inspired by ye olde Badurian's Gata (specifically the original one). It is not popular and thy have been struggling since Day 1, but depsite their financial struggle, the game got released and it was, in all account: "Good".

But apparently RTwP is so niche, the market cannot sustain the company, thus they need help to release their DLC.

I personally like the game, it might be not the best game ever but with its limitation it had done splendidly.