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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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Being a fan of other swords and sorcery games and media, I decided to buy BG3 a couple of weeks ago. Sadly, I'm not sure how much longer I’m going to keep slogging through. Being rather disappointed and bit frustrated, I’m leaving some suggestions and feedback here on the off chance that Larian reads them. Ahem.
Suggestions and comments:
• Consider enhancing available combat settings to give hardcore strategy players more difficulty if they want it and also give people who are primarily interested in the RPG story aspect a more fluid and even combat experience. For me, the combat is a tedious, save scumming chore. I knew coming in that this was turn based gameplay, however I do not have a background in DnD mechanics and the opening tutorials are of extremely limited insight. As a result, having to try and learn what this game is expecting me to do has felt like some combination of futile and infuriating.
• Overhaul the provided tutorials to provide more detail and examples. You can’t assume that everyone is a veteran DnD campaigner or turn based strategy expert. Just saying “You can use your environment” doesn’t add much. What can I use and how? Why does it seem like enemies always get the first round even when I’m sneaking up on them? Why was that monster able to shoot me through solid rock? Why are my spells and abilities limited to X number of slots per rest when everything I fight seems to go ham with special abilities every turn? etc.
• Add tool tips to explain anything that should be common knowledge to a person in the BG3 world that is not common knowledge to someone in our real world. Name dropping regions, gods and history does nothing but add confusion if I’ve never heard of them before. The lore/world/race/class details are so overwhelmingly vast that I am continually looking things up online as opposed to getting in-game explanations that should have been included in the first place.
• Provide more range of motion with the camera. You created a rich visual environment; let people pan around entirely and immerse in it.
• In the future, consider trying to settle on a tone for the environment and narrative. So far, I have seen elements of high fantasy, sci fi and Cthulhuesque horror all mingling with cartoon level silliness. The result feels uneven and detracts from the potential dramatic stakes.
I'll keep plugging away for now; trying really hard to like this one but it's just not working so far.
Cheers.
Last edited by Levghilian; 29/10/23 07:16 PM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2022
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You weren't supposed to be the target audience.
That's why the game isn't catering to you.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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So if you hit J to open quest log the far right tab on the top will have all your tutorials listed. Right clicking on any creature will give a menu that has examine on it, if you wish to know what passives creatures have it'll be their. Also keep the right side combat log open, hovering over combat text on that will give more details. There's a option in gameplay called Karmic Dice, it's suppose to even out the amount of failed rolls but from what I heard it screws you over. Here's a quick bg3 builder I found a while back, its been pretty helpful personally: https://eip.gg/bg3/build-planner/for who starts when on beginning of battle, its called initiative, if you hover over dexterity (dex) attribute it'll say it their. You can check it out while in combat by the middle top portraits, you can right click those and see npc and player attributes. good luck
Last edited by fallenj; 30/10/23 04:48 AM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
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Heya Levghilian, I can field a few of those complaints with at least some answers, even if they aren't very satisfying... Though I'd encourage you to submit your impressions and experiences as feedback to Larian directly through their feedback form; letting them know how the game led you to experience it is always data they may be able to use. Anyhow... Folks have been asking for a more robust difficulty settings spread, as other contemporary D&D-based or similar games offer, for awhile now. It seems unlikely that we will ever get one, at least not before a theorised definitive edition years from now... For folks used to faster paced play, the large number of enemies that BG3's battle design often pitches at you can leave you twiddling your thumbs for several minutes between taking turns with your characters, which may themselves only take a handful of seconds, before leaving you to wait again. Understandably, a lot of folks who aren't deeply engaged in the combat minutia may find this tedious. The reason that most other contemporary games of this style focus on larger, more dangerous enemies in smaller numbers is precisely for this reason, but it's a lesson that Larian haven't quite learned yet. The camera behaviour during enemy turns doesn't help, since the way it jumps around, often lagging behind creatures actually acting (creatures may begin to act immediately, while the camera may take up to a second to move to or reach them with any clarity, often making it unclear what the creature even did... this is juxtaposed by the equal measure of creatures going brain-dead during their turn and spending upwards of eight or nine seconds doing nothing at all and just bouncing in place. It's not great.) Larian are quick to say that they provide options, and don't 'expect' you to do anything, but rather make the space free for you to be creative. This is only really true at the paint-deep surface level... many fights are set up specifically as set pieces and designed for you to abuse various elements of the environment to win the fight cheaply; some find this funny, and satisfying, but many do not. Playing on the lowest difficulty, the story mode, should provide you a fairly easy run through and let you focus on the story elements themselves; you don't need to be a D&D vet here or have a tweaked build - you can bumble your way through this game without ever using nay of your class abilities at all, and just rely on beating creatures to death with a sack of chain shirts you throw around, throwing enemies into other enemies, and shoving them off cliffs; that's all Larian homebrew and it's more powerful than most of what you might get from your formal D&D class, and if utilising it doesn't bother you, it'll make your play-through very easy. If you want to actually learn about playing D&D, however, you're right that Larian's tutorial information is bare bones, and there exists no in-game resource to check things; there's no glossary, other than what you get popping out individual tooltips, and those are usually lacking in detail, and there's no clear description of the rules of the game. Various folks have been pushing for a compendium-type resource to be present in the game, where you can read up on the mechanics if you choose to, but it's just not the sort of thing that Larian does - they much prefer the "We're not going to tell you, just try it and find out, it'll be funny!" approach. If that isn't something you enjoy, then much of the game may rub you the wrong way. Another example that keeps coming up, even after being grilled repeatedly during EA, is the issue between threatened and ranged attacks; how far do you need to be from a hostile before it stops imposing disadvantage on your ranged attack? Game refuses, utterly, to tell you this. You can be out of opportunity range (which the game also doesn't give you a rule for, just a visual indication), and more than five feet away, but still be told you're too close... you've just got to 'try it to find out', taking gradual steps further and further away until it stops applying the penalty; there's no way to know before hand if you'll be far enough, because the game will not tell you, or explain the rule, anywhere.) Just saying “You can use your environment” doesn’t add much. What can I use and how? Why does it seem like enemies always get the first round even when I’m sneaking up on them? Why was that monster able to shoot me through solid rock? Why are my spells and abilities limited to X number of slots per rest when everything I fight seems to go ham with special abilities every turn? etc. Fallen answered a couple of these, but here's some more: Environmentally, Larian likes blowing stuff up. They like things to be big and flashy and colourful and dramatic, all the time, 100% to the max. That's their philosophy. What they generally mean by 'use your environment' is "shoot the thing that blows up to blow up your enemies". There are other things, like breaking rocks of the ceiling to drop on enemies, or destroying the bridge they're crossing, but a very large percentage of the time, it's blowing things up, and the vast majority of all such interactions are done by shooting them with a projectile, preferably one that's on fire.... Or shoving them off cliffs/into hazards, they love that too. Monsters are often able to shoot through solid rocks and other obstacles, while you can't, because the UI lies to you, and the AI doesn't have to contend with that. It knows where the exact one pixel exists that it can get the shot through, and it doesn't have to worry about wrangling a UI that wants to force-move your character, or tell you that a path is obstruct when it isn't (or not tell you when it is). The other element is that most of Larian's customised monster abilities don't require line of sight or path to target for the enemies to use, while most of yours, derived form D&D abilities, do. It's as simple as that, unfortunately. You have limited uses of your spells and special abilities because that's part of how D&d works, in terms of resource management. A level 20, near god-like, wizard still only has 4 1st level spell slots per day, for example (they have a large amount of other slots too - three 2nds, three 3rds, three 4ths, three 5ths, two 6ths, two 7ths, one 8th and one 9th). You're bound by those rules, but Larian decided that it wouldn't be 'fun' enough if they had their enemies play by those rules as well... so they don't. Their enemy casters have 8 1st level slots off base, even at level 2, and it only goes up from there. As well as this, they homebrewed a lot of offensive bonus action abilities that deal damage, something else that 5e rules don't do for monsters except in very rare occasions, and they gave them to their monsters to use freely every turn as well. Because that's 'cooler'... right? Add tool tips to explain anything that should be common knowledge to a person in the BG3 world that is not common knowledge to someone in our real world. Name dropping regions, gods and history does nothing but add confusion if I’ve never heard of them before. The lore/world/race/class details are so overwhelmingly vast that I am continually looking things up online as opposed to getting in-game explanations that should have been included in the first place. They hinted at starting to do this, in the EA - one of the things they showcased was your character making an internal history check to learn about the Descent, when mention of it came up... however, that turned out to be mostly smoke and mirrors in the end, and the game seems largely destitute of the surrounding lore that would help. There ARE a number of books with stories in them that help, but not nearly enough except for folks already generally familiar with the world space. They act like cool hat tips and nostalgia points for people already vaguely familiar, but don't give enough detail for those who aren't. A glossary and compendium of lore would be excellent, and many would like to see it added, but don't hold your breath. Other contemporary games make names and terms highlightable in dialogue, and popping out a tooltip on them brings up a lore description of what is being referenced, often with further pop-outs available from those if necessary. Short of having an in-game compendium that can be checked, that's a pretty neat solution. What I will say is that the forgotten realms wiki is pretty good at giving background setting information, and it's easy to fall down a rabbit hole of reading about lore bits and pieces there, to give you a broader picture. Provide more range of motion with the camera. You created a rich visual environment; let people pan around entirely and immerse in it. Not much help I can offer on this one, sadly the camera has been jank since day one, and it's still jank now. If you're trying to target something specifically in combat, there's a 'tactics mode' that you can go into by pressing (default) 'O' - this moves it to a more specifically top don view, which, because the game does not actually have any legitimate verticality, or ability for you to target things on the vertical axis (which other contemporary games manage with aplomb), works for most things... though once again, the camera's inability to be moved up and down, or to handle multiple floors properly makes this come undone in many places as well... == You weren't supposed to be the target audience.
That's why the game isn't catering to you. That's extremely unhelpful as a remark, Dex. Larian wanted this game to appeal to as many people as possible and as much of the potential market as they could... that's part of why it turned out as such a tonally inconsistent mess in the first place. They wanted to try to appeal to everyone and couldn't keep their game identity under control... and if fans of fantasy sword-and-sorcery rpgs weren't part of the target audience for BG3, I'd to know who you think were. Who DO you think were the target audience (though if you say dating sim players, I'll probably have to pay that...)? It certainly wasn't D&D veterans; Larian's own scorn of the D&D system, and their wilful obfuscation of its mechanics and potentially unintentional misunderstanding of many elements of them, and their back-handed blame of the 5e system as the thing at fault for any poor game-play or clunky systems (they claimed to have made a faithful implementation and found it wasn't fun, so changed it up; there's no feasible way this is true without severely stretching the meaning of the statement)... well, that mostly speaks for itself, in spite of those determined to defend the game or the company at any cost. It is the D&D enthusiasts who were drawn in on the promise of a 5e D&D game, who have been the ones most commonly left feeling let down by the game. It really feels like the majority of what you do, recently, is come into threads with the intent of blaming the player for any fault they find with the game. Please stop doing that - it really doesn't contribute anything, and there are much more productive ways to offer insights and advice to players that don't heap on a portion of scorn, blame of implied inferiority.
Last edited by Niara; 30/10/23 06:21 AM.
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Joined: Jul 2023
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• Provide more range of motion with the camera. You created a rich visual environment; let people pan around entirely and immerse in it. If you have the chance to play with mods, try WASD Character Movement together with Native Camera Tweaks. These pretty much resolve that issue and feel quite solid. Had the same impression, bg3 doesn't do a good job on introducing dnd gameplay and lore to people that arent fammiliar with it. In an interview Swen Vincke mentioned they wanted to use the dnd rules/mechanics without the need for players to know them. Only that this cannot work: it's hard to make good use of concentration spells without also knowing about constitution saving throw proficiency, just as one example. Playing in story mode and/or using ready-made op character builds from yt should ease things and let you learn dnd on the way if you want to. The "cartoonish level silliness"... it's Larian's signature by now and agreed, doesn't fit the story/setting at all. The key to enjoyment of the game was the role playing aspect: I had a pretty good idea of the character I wanted to play before starting the game and in every situation and dialogue I asked myself: how would this character react here? And then played along with whatever outcome this resulted in. This worked great throughout the game until mid of act 3 where stuff fell apart/wasn't quite finished yet.
Last edited by Staunton; 30/10/23 08:59 AM.
- You are one of us now. - Yes, I suppose I am.
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addict
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Joined: Dec 2022
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You weren't supposed to be the target audience.
That's why the game isn't catering to you. That's extremely unhelpful as a remark, Dex. Larian wanted this game to appeal to as many people as possible and as much of the potential market as they could... that's part of why it turned out as such a tonally inconsistent mess in the first place. They wanted to try to appeal to everyone and couldn't keep their game identity under control... and if fans of fantasy sword-and-sorcery rpgs weren't part of the target audience for BG3, I'd to know who you think were. Who DO you think were the target audience (though if you say dating sim players, I'll probably have to pay that...)? It certainly wasn't D&D veterans; Larian's own scorn of the D&D system, and their wilful obfuscation of its mechanics and potentially unintentional misunderstanding of many elements of them, and their back-handed blame of the 5e system as the thing at fault for any poor game-play or clunky systems (they claimed to have made a faithful implementation and found it wasn't fun, so changed it up; there's no feasible way this is true without severely stretching the meaning of the statement)... well, that mostly speaks for itself, in spite of those determined to defend the game or the company at any cost. It is the D&D enthusiasts who were drawn in on the promise of a 5e D&D game, who have been the ones most commonly left feeling let down by the game. It really feels like the majority of what you do, recently, is come into threads with the intent of blaming the player for any fault they find with the game. Please stop doing that - it really doesn't contribute anything, and there are much more productive ways to offer insights and advice to players that don't heap on a portion of scorn, blame of implied inferiority. I am saying matter-of-factly, that He is not the target audience. Yes, the marketing details and spoke person sure love to say that it's for everyone. Sure. But the game itself designed not for him. It is designed for those who familiar with "Larian Game Design" and/or "Dungeon & Dragons' TTRPG Player and/or "Old Infinity Engine games fans" --- which is why the game doesn't feel the need to explain everything to the player because the player should've known that. Although, I admit I fail to mention that the game does comes with wiki of short. ps. I am sorry that you think I am blaming him or anything, as I am actually in his side, I'm simply telling him, "the dev's probably doesn't care about you, bud" -- but seems like you're intent to see me as villain or some short. I literally wrote 2 short sentences, and you came up with an entire Game Theory episode, do I need to pay rent because it seems to me I'm living in your head rent free.
Last edited by Dext. Paladin; 30/10/23 09:48 AM.
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Joined: Jul 2023
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Coming from dos1/dos2 and kingmaker/WotR, so probably belonging to the target audience, I would say that the points the OP raises are all very valid and should not be dismissed that easily.
- You are one of us now. - Yes, I suppose I am.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2022
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^ yes.
I am betting if the Dev applied all the things OP wants, somebody else (from the target audience), would complain that the game is "hand holdy" or something.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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I do think points OP raises are valid, even though my perspective on some of them differs.
I do think BG3 does a very poor job tutorialising and explaining combat mechanics. Part of it is UI design that doesn't gel with game systems, part of it is Larian insistance on obfuscating game mechanics behind a paint of D:OS2 familiarity. Now I don't think you need to understand those to succeed, and if you do the combat becomes rather boring as it is not well balanced, but if you want to engage with the combat system I think BG3 works against you.
Worldbuilding and storytelling in BG3 is shoddy. Game does namedrop names, places and events as if expecting you to know this stuff, but from hanging in those forums for a while I got impression being Forgotten Realms fan doesn't really help, as Larian also doesn't stay faithful to the IP. That also applies to Larian made characters - there were some characters that I assumed were cameos from other FR realms properties, on account how undeveloped they are, and how the game seemed to expect me to care, but apparently it is not so.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
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I am sorry that you think I am blaming him or anything, as I am actually in his side, I'm simply telling him, "the dev's probably doesn't care about you, bud" -- but seems like you're intent to see me as villain or some short. I apologise, in that case. I felt that your remark was dismissive and player-blaming in its tone, tht was how it felt when I read it... but if that wasn't your intention then I'm sorry for taking it that way. I don't wish to attack anyone here, but I am a bit over-cautious about posters being dismissive of others' concerns, and if I jumped the gun on this one then that's on me.
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member
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Joined: Jul 2023
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I do think BG3 does a very poor job tutorialising and explaining combat mechanics. Part of it is UI design that doesn't gel with game systems, part of it is Larian insistance on obfuscating game mechanics behind a paint of D:OS2 familiarity. Now I don't think you need to understand those to succeed, and if you do the combat becomes rather boring as it is not well balanced, but if you want to engage with the combat system I think BG3 works against you. That obfuscation or deliberate hiding of the dnd mechanics under the surface/ui may just be the root cause of the problem. It's a repeating complaint on the forums by dnd veterans that the game is too easy and by noobs that it's too hard. In order for the mechanic to work for newbies without exposing it to the player the encounters have been made easier than necessary and means of cheesing your way through have been provided. I'd argue it would be much preferable to expose the inner workings of the game, an empowering the noobs kind of approach that looks and feels familiar to the veterans as well. Not saying this would be an easy task ui design-wise, just that hiding stuff away causes more problems than it solves. And this isn't arguing against the "make fights strategic rather than hard" philosophy. Only that please don't hide away the game mechanics, instead give new players the chance to pick up on it without having to consult several dnd guides on the internet. if the Dev applied all the things OP wants, somebody else (from the target audience), would complain that the game is "hand holdy" or something. As long as players can opt-out of tutorials and skip lore introduction I fail to see why.
- You are one of us now. - Yes, I suppose I am.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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I am sorry that you think I am blaming him or anything, as I am actually in his side, I'm simply telling him, "the dev's probably doesn't care about you, bud" -- but seems like you're intent to see me as villain or some short. I apologise, in that case. I felt that your remark was dismissive and player-blaming in its tone, tht was how it felt when I read it... but if that wasn't your intention then I'm sorry for taking it that way. I don't wish to attack anyone here, but I am a bit over-cautious about posters being dismissive of others' concerns, and if I jumped the gun on this one then that's on me. @Dext. Paladin No, your first comment came off as rude my man. I ignored your comment and tried to give tips to OP, sometimes its better to take a second and think about what you should type instead of being flippant.
Last edited by fallenj; 30/10/23 07:20 PM.
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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Hey folks, I can see why people took Dext. Paladin’s comment as dismissive, but they’ve apologised and clarified that’s not what was intended so let’s move on.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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Bard of Suzail
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Bard of Suzail
Joined: Oct 2020
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Dext. Paladin however does have a point. The devs cannot make a game that is for everyone, they design for their own vision, take a little player feedback during EA and this is the game you have. He could have been less blunt with his statement but he is not wrong.
I look at BG3 and while I enjoy it greatly, there is much about it I do not like. I hate the character creation system as it is limited so heavily in creating your look. I hate not having options for alternate Humans and for not using the actual DND racial bonuses. I do not like not having an option to spend points or role stats. I truly hate the fact they removed Deity choice from Paladins, especially since it is large part of the Realms lore. I am not a fan of using the D4 instead of the D20 for initiative. There is more on my list but you get my point.
I have been involved in gaming professional and as a gamer for a LONG time and I understand that no one designs a game the way I want. They have to look at broader audience appeal and make choices based on their vision and what they think will sell.
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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My thanks to everyone who offered constructive feedback to my feedback. I honestly did not expect such thoughtful responses and there are some great tips and background information in here. Also, for what it’s worth, I do not feel slighted at observations that this title may not be for me. I just wanted to express my experience at the time that I was having it.
In the meantime, I’ve relented and dropped the difficulty down to ‘Explorer’ so that I may, well, explore what I can.
Cheers.
Last edited by Levghilian; 31/10/23 01:28 PM.
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There is a phenomena called the 5 minute adventuring day. Enemies always benefit from it. They have nothing to do all day except fight you and fight like they know it's their last hurrah in this world. Because it is. The player is always stronger.
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Oct 2023
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One last bit of feedback now that I've had more time to try and adapt myself to the game. My dislike for the combat and the more absurd aspects of the world building remain, but I've come to realize that I played through those disappointments out of interest in my companions and curiosity as to where the story is going. Unfortunately, though, here in the early stages of Act 3 I've come to realize that the major plot lines just aren't engaging me and I've essentially been logging in for fear of missing out. Gortash and Orin are awful act 3 antagonists. Gortash does not look the part in any way and Orin feels like a edgelordy serial killer ripoff of Harlequin. What's been more problematic for me has been that the entire Elder Brain / Illithid Guardian / Magic Gith Prince backdrop has felt absurd, convoluted and almost entirely unsatisfying. So, yeah, I pretty much hate the writing now on top of the combat. Not a great place to be. Anyway, it's a bit depressing to realize how dissatisfying so many aspect of this game ended up being -- especially when other people seem to be loving it -- but I've given this thing an honest effort along with my $70 and it's ultimately been one disappointment after another. The odd thing is, I'm still thinking about it and trying to figure out how to get 'into' it; it's like the desire for a satisfying fantasy RPG has given me Stockholm syndrome or something. Ah, well. If someone reading this enjoys the game as it currently is, I am happy for you and a bit jealous; hopefully I'll meet where you're at one of these days.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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There are many things that you could sum up as faulty or that could be done better in the BG3 story and cast, but this Orin feels like a edgelordy serial killer ripoff of Harlequin. is a totally wrong statement. In fact it has it all backwards. The seductive evil and cruel mass-murderer woman is a thousands-of-years old archetype in mythology and consequently fantasy literature. (Think of Circe, Medea, Morrigan..) So they really nailed Orin very well as a Fantasy creature. One could see Harlequin as a superhero ripoff from the fantasygenre
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There are many things that you could sum up as faulty or that could be done better in the BG3 story and cast, but this Orin feels like a edgelordy serial killer ripoff of Harlequin. is a totally wrong statement. In fact it has it all backwards. The seductive evil and cruel mass-murderer woman is a thousands-of-years old archetype in mythology and consequently fantasy literature. (Think of Circe, Medea, Morrigan..) So they really nailed Orin very well as a Fantasy creature. One could see Harlequin as a superhero ripoff from the fantasygenre None of the three you mention are homicidal maniacs and none of them are portrayed at the level of a pantomime villain in the ancient texts.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2023
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Oh, I don't know Circe turned men into pigs, Medea turned men into stone until she saw herself in a shield Athena gave Theseus, Morrigan was the Celtic Goddess of War, Death, Sovereignty and Magic. They all sound like nasty pieces of work to me.
May the Force be with you
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