Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Halsin Romance, Expectations and Obligatory Poly

Come on, folks. I thought I was clear yesterday that I didn’t think it was helpful or desirable to see the same people going over the ground they’ve already covered again.

Let’s not start similar circular arguments again. And let’s recognise that accusations of homophobia or trivialisation of sexual assault are going to be emotive and are likely to lead to strong feelings (I know they also probably come from that place) and heated debate and be very, very careful about how we talk about such topics here as a result. And be particularly aware that we should not keep going round in circles and repeating our point when it’s inevitably going to be stirring things up.

EDIT: Just seen the latest. papercut_ninja, the way you are talking about this and raising difficult real life situations that these forums are not really an appropriate place to discuss makes it feel like you’re trying to back your opponents into defending the indefensible and of course they’re going to be upset by that. I realise you yourself have had a strong and negative reaction to some elements of the story, and are finding it hard to accept that others can read it in a different way, but you have now made your take clear multiple times. Please let’s move on.

I'm tired of rl comparisons and exaggerations. I'm taking a break, this is getting too much for me again. Sorry The Red Queen, I'm already gone.

My apologies, ruining the mood and making people uncomfortable is my superpower. I will see myself out and see if I can go somewhere else and make people miserable

I'm fairly certain it's a bug with his romance flags, as I once tried turning him down after he transforms into a bear once, the scene ends and he still thinks we're together. I get the "night before" dialogue option, kiss, etc. (I've reported it since)

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Anyways, a couple personal thoughts/suggestions on Halsin:

1. I think they should remove or change his dialogue on relationships. It's just weird having that option there the whole time and he just says the same thing every time. Being both mono or poly means being in a dedicated relationship, no? I get whiplash when he says "you are all I want" and yet he doesn't see it as any kind of dedication. It makes me feel...used? I don't know. Maybe it's me lol.

2. Going along with autistichalsin's suggestion, having an option where the player states that they don't want anyone else, maybe dialogue where Halsin says something along the lines of "This is new to me, but you have done so much for me already...I will try being with you.". Then the player can either choose "Feel free to share your heart with others." or "Thank you, let me know if you ever feel smothered.". I think this gives the player a little more agency while at the same time not removing Halsin's fluid nature.

3. I might be a bit ignorant on poly relationships as it's not my thing personally, but having more options for poly romances would be great for the people who want them. I think Karlach and Laezel would be good options for this (I'm legit surprised they aren't already an option in some form).

All in all though even if they don't change a thing I'll still be in love with this dang character. (Except his voice line bugs, please fix those...)

Hi, I'm a polyamorous person (who has been lurking ).

Background: I'm weighing in because there's a lot of back and forth about whether the people discussing this are actually poly. So, I just wanted to give my input, and I hope it's welcomed. I'm part of a larger polycule, with many forms of poly orientation in this constellation.

My request: Would it be possible if we could start referring to Halsin as "consensually non-monogamous" instead of "polyamorous"? Because the way Halsin is represented, he doesn't fit into polyamory.

Halsin's unwillingness to commit to a romantic relationship and his reservations about exclusivity wouldn't really define him as polyamorous. Polyamory typically involves being open to or actively engaged in multiple romantic relationships simultaneously, which doesn't seem to align with Halsin's current disposition.

Halsin's preferences fall more within the realm of non-monogamy or consensual non-monogamy. His specific approach and reluctance to commit to any or more partners means that he doesn't really fit into polyamory.

I would also say that, to me and based on my knowledge of relationship anarchy, he seems more relationship avoidant and R-A.

Personally, within my polycule (and this will not be true for everyone), Halsin would not be considered a part of it, but rather a casual fling. What I don't like about him being referred to as polyamorous is that it conveys people's misconceptions. From my own experience, I'm hurt that people believe I don't really care to invest time and effort into my relationships just because I have more of them. That couldn't be further from the truth. So, I'm actually sad to see this. And Halsin's responses make it seem, to me, like he is there for the temporary fun, but not the actual to make something longterm and of more than immediate value.

I've seen some make the argument that polyamory cannot be depicted in video games, so I would encourage looking into these examples:

When the Night Comes - Lunaris Games: Has two polycule options (four different characters), and they are so adorable, thoughtful, and considerate. There is communication, healing, and the establishment of what the polycule is and will be. There is even a three-way commitment ceremony/marriage, and it's so lovely!

Knight Errant - Lunaris Games: Here, there are also two polycule options. While I think one is better depicted than the other, they are both lovely and respectful.

Establishing these relationships would not have taken more content than what has already been presented in BG3 - which is such a shame. For those who want some wholesome and accurate poly-content, I really recommend these!

I wish that Larian would take a look at these examples, because it is absolutely feasible to add it to the existing content, and make it wonderful.

As a final note: I won't judge whether or not Astarion, Karlach, and Shadowheart are poly-interested, but I will say that as a poly person myself, I would never force the issues with the responses from Karlach and Astarion.

For me personally, if someone in my polycule was as traumatized as Astarion, I would not encourage him to engage in an orgy. If the request specifically came from him, it would be a different matter, but at the state where Astarion is in the game, I feel like I would personally be irresponsible for the part I have played in his well-being. With Karlach, that short discussion would definitely not be comfortable without pressing the issue without further conversation. I am as responsible for what I put into the relationship as they are for their contribution and allowance. People in polycules have different needs and expectations, and as a part of it, it's my responsibility as a partner to prioritize those needs with open communication, compromise, patience and understanding.

In polyamory it is also possible to cheat, and in regards to Karlach, it feels like very pressured consent. With her reaction, I would not leave to go be with Halsin right away, but have stayed with her, reassured her, and loved her, so she felt that it would not mean any loss for her.

Polyamory is about truly and deeply caring and treasuring each relationship, but this comes off as an inconsiderate gimmick at the cost of the characters involved. As a poly person, I felt sad and just wanted to truly love and hug them.

I've seen polyamory done well on a lower budget and resources, so the fact that this aspect is subpar was actually disappointing to me.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk!

Well said, Mizukun! I can only add that Halsin's behaviour is a sudden restriction of sexuality where none was before. Our companions are not straight, gay or anything else - they were made player-sexual for inclusion reasons. Stating "he is this way, deal with it" is kind of contradictory to the theme. Wyll flirts exclusively with girls in banters, while we only meet Astarion's male lovers. Yet, Wyll can perfectly marry a guy Tav and Astarion confesses his love to the girl Tav. It's all up to the player.

I see no reason for Halsin not to do the same thing, depending on what the player wants.

(Has to say it again about the "lore of wood elves". Their polygamy nature is not a DnD rule or lore. It was mentioned in one DnD-related novel. One. Once. Larian can absolutely make it part of their game but since it does not apply to anyone else in the game world, it does not look like a rule there either. More like Halsin's personal nature.)

Oh, I heard about that some time ago here, on this forum. Could you please give a title of this novel? If you know it, of course.
I have a feeling where this "lore" could've come from (and where I found this information too) - it is from Forgotten Realms fandom wiki. So maybe Larian writers used this info.

Based on this article on the Forgotten Realms wiki (see Personality) this seems to be something that has been thematised in the novel The Summoning, though to be fair, I never read it and am not sure of it.

This is what the wiki article says:

Wood elven romantic and sexual relationships were often polyamorous in nature, members of the race freely engaging or ceasing relations with new partners. Feelings of jealousy and possessiveness were as a result viewed by the race as reasons for teasing or mockery. As a result of these perspectives on love, high elves often believed that any relationships engaged with wood elves would be destined to fail from the start.

Thanks for your post, Ember. I'm also someone who lives in a poly situation, and I've wanted to say a similar thing for a while - that the character as described would not be what I would consider poly, and that it's a misnomer in this situation. I dind't want to wade into it in great depth because it would end up being something I had more words than energy to spend on it, and I've also I've not finished my playthrough of the game, and didn't want to speak too closely about things I'm not completely certain about... but going from the interactions described, I desperately wanted to say that I didn't feel the character should be described as such at all, and that in a very real way, it becomes an illustration of the writers and designers not knowing or caring enough to not pass forward bad stereotypes and mischaracterisations when they used the term.

Basically, I'd like to support and second the things you wrote here; Halsin swearing off 'relationships' as a whole is just as much an anathema to poly relations as it is to monogamous ones, and even though every poly situation is different, and they can be healthy and unhealthy just like any other relationship... communication, understanding an a willingness to take perspective of and with your partners is integral in a poly relationship even moreso than it is in a purely monogamous one, if it is to be a healthy relationship... so people calling what Halsin is, and seems to be by all accounts here, 'poly' has always made me uncomfortable.

I know it. And as much as i wanted to love poly in this game, it is just not doing the community or the Halsin character any favors.

All he basically neede dto do was remain as wholesome as he is in the rest of the game in this aspect as well. It makes no sense, to me, to make inclusive representation by placing limitations that or not even in alignment with the poly approach to relationships.

Hey, good post!
I just wanted to ask if "inviting himself" in a drow convo in a brothel is an appropriate behaviour. Also obviously SH banter.
From the point of view if you declined his offer earlier of course.

I mean, to me that would be a breach of "no means no". At that point he has already expressed and interest and then been turned down. It sort of feel like a guy hitting on you at a bar, getting turned down, and then walking up so you when you're with someone else and then trying to get in on it. That's not okay. Even during sex parties (ritual or recreational) this behaviour is not only unwanted, but frowned upon.

If it had been me, I would have made an option for Tav to suggest he join, instead of he suggesting it himself when turned down. It seems that in the constellation of Halsin's sexuality and prefferences he is given agency that should have been awarded the player. But that's how I interpret it.

If what you're saying here is that you think this option should lead to Halsin trying to be monogamous for the player, then respectfully, no, I don't agree with that at all. (Sorry, I can't quite tell if that's what the "smothered" line is supposed to mean.) When I suggested what I did, I meant solely for Tav to be able to say that they personally don't want other partners for themself, with no bearing on how Halsin approaches the relationship. I don't want Halsin to compromise on his beliefs for me- that would make me, personally, beyond uncomfortable.

I can respect that point of view, but then I will say, then by advocating that you should be able to go with him at the end is actually also against the beliefs he has.

Halsin is as he is written now adverse to the entire idea of relationship. And if you want o embrace that, all power to the people who wish that, but then it should also be respected that Halsin's ending should remain as it is and that Tav will not go with him after the game.

Him being monogamous and him taking Tav along, is in this case the same belief: The wish to be entirely unbound and not engaging in any commitment of any sort. And for that his ending is perfect.

I am not saying that halsin should be monogamous, but you can't have him not compromising at all (by adjusting his values to adapt to a new circumstances in his life that is Tav) and have him take Tav with him.

By asking for Halsin to be able to take Tav with him, you are in fact asking for him to compromise his beliefs. And in some degree, all adults who wishes to function in any type of interpersonal relationship will need to compromise in order to sustain relationships.

But it sounds like you really got from his character what you wanted, and that in this case that he doesn't take Tav with him is an uncompromisingly happy ending for him. <3

I want to ask one thing. On one hand I understand what you mean, but also in his last dialogue Halsin says he wants to see Tav again, he will look on the horizon every day waiting for Tav to touch him again. He also has "selfish reasons" for wanting to see Tav again. So... I don't understand this: the man clearly says he wants to see his beloved as soon as possible, he definitely loves Tav, but at the same time for unknown reasons he cannot ask Tav to join him. Why? Also Tav may not have any other things to do. I don't really see logic here.

From my own personal experience I interpret Halsin as placing value on infatuation, but doesn't want to devote time into developing long lasting love. He specifically says he wants Tav to visit, not stay. I think this is very intentionally done, so there is not created expectations of a longlasting and maintained relationship, which is what he makes clear from the beginning.

Example of a polycule and love: Moving between two households, where each partner lives and divioding time and nurturing those relationships.

Long distance relationship: Keeping in touch regularly to develop and maintain the relationship, and then visit for periods of time to develop that love and intimacy further

Long distance physical enjoyment: Not actually putting effort into developing and progressing the attachment beyond the infatuation stage. Keeping the feelings attached to the infatuation stage and to the physical enjoyment of it, until the infatuation stage has run its course, and both parties move on

Halsin is in the last catagory, as he sets very clear boundaries by saying it's not a relationship, he does whatever his instincts wants him to do, and keeps those boundaries in place by leaving without Tav, specifically calling it a visit, and refering to the physical aspects as the main focus throughout the conversation. While there is some debate on if this is in character for act 1 and 2 Halsin, this is entirely in keeping with act 3 Halsin. He has relationship aversion and as such will responsibly make certain that there are no expectations set for it being anything else.

Halsin is very infatuated with Tav, but he makes it very clear throughout act 3 that he does not wish to but in the effort and commitment it takes for it to evolve into what is usually associated with longlasting love.

This entirely in keeping with his relationship aversion, and if people wish for this to remain a part of his character, then him leaving at the end is what is natural for this character.

I just wish people would stop calling him polyamorous, because placing that label on him does make him seem very manipulative and cruel - and I don't believe that was the intention.

Halsin is a casual infatuation romance, that will likely never be maintained because of the firm boundaries he is setting for it.

I'm mono, yet I see no contradiction here. He's just telling you he's willing to share and respects consent. IMO, it feels caring yet straightforward. And then he's very sex positive and GGG, which is awesome.

But later he does not respect consent boundaries. Also, he declares his heart stirring and all that, yet your love interest treats it like a fling. Finally, Halsin has a third perspective later when you ask about your relationship. IMO the writing here muddles the water more than answers any questions.

My feeling is that they weren't sure of an identity for him so it all sends mixed messages. I just want them to pick something and make it more clear. Nor should the player be able to change him to suit their own preferences; let him be what he is and the player can choose to accept that or not.

Isn't that a contradiction in a game, where literally every other character you have some influence over how they turn out? Art, which this is, should be about being as broad, as naunced and inclusive as possible. Seems personally odd to me that the character advocated to be added for inclusion and to please the fanbase is the most restrictive character of all.

If games like "When the Night Comes" - which is almost in exclusively LGBTQ+ game - can keep all these options and nuances open to give a rewarding player experience with a much lower budget and resources, why is it a bad thing to have it in BG3?

Ok, thank you for explanation!
Still, yeah, the mixture of his "believes" looks very messy. Because it is a mixture where each part is not properly developed, as I can see this. If he was only polyamorous or only into fluid relationships maybe it would be easier to develop Halsin's character properly, I don't know. And here we have, what my people say, neither fish nor meat. Players definitely want romantic relathionships, they want love and what we got is... something odd.

Sorry, poor choice of words from me. I'm not trying to suggest for him to become monogamous all of a sudden. What I wanted was Tav/origin to just reassure Halsin about being in a relationship with them since I get the vibe that he's avoiding it due to possible past trauma. Maybe restricted, instead of smothered, would be a better word? I just wanted to suggest an option like that to go along with yours, apologies if it made you uncomfortable.