BG1/BG2/and particularly Icewind Dale's soundtrack is bloody legendary. I mean, its not even close.
Last edited by Count Turnipsome; 27/10/2302:03 PM.
It just reminded me of the bowl of goat's milk that old Winthrop used to put outside his door every evening for the dust demons. He said the dust demons could never resist goat's milk, and that they would always drink themselves into a stupor and then be too tired to enter his room..
Inventory management et all I feel will only ever improve significantly in future Larian games if the CoOp thinking behind that stops being the main focus. If you play DOS and BG3 with a little help from your CoOp friends, that's less of an issue. Here everybody is managing their inventory. If not, however...
Originally Posted by Ixal
There definitely are things wrong with BG3. Watch Honor among Thieves. That really feels like D&D and FR. BG3 does not really.
I liked that movie. Saw it in the cinema and also bought it on blu-Ray. It may feel like D&D, but it has a wholly different tone to BG1+2. I mean, they have cast Hugh Grant as the Big Bad! It's absolutely hilarious, but it's a tonally completely different thing all around. The movie is a lot about laughs in general... and people even compared it to Guardians Of The Galaxy.
BG1+2 have a lot of goofy stuff going on in between. For most of that, you don't even need to look for it. It finds you and follows you and barely lets go of goofing around (Noober anyone?) But ToB included, it's still very obviously the story about
the offspring of the God Of Goddamn Murder battling it all out who may eventually succeed him -- with BG2 as the "distraction" from the main arc being about a dude not shy about killing and torturing people to get what he wants also.
Hugh Grant as Irenicus or Sarevok and Firkraag Ye Mighty Dragon being overweight to play it all for laughs? Probably not.
Inventory management et all I feel will only ever improve significantly in future Larian games if the CoOp thinking behind that stops being the main focus. If you play DOS and BG3 with a little help from your CoOp friends, that's less of an issue. Here everybody is managing their inventory. If not, however...
Originally Posted by Ixal
There definitely are things wrong with BG3. Watch Honor among Thieves. That really feels like D&D and FR. BG3 does not really.
I liked that movie. Saw it in the cinema and also bought it on blu-Ray. It may feel like D&D, but it has a wholly different tone to BG1+2. I mean, they have cast Hugh Grant as the Big Bad! It's absolutely hilarious, but it's a tonally completely different thing all around. The movie is a lot about laughs in general... and people even compared it to Guardians Of The Galaxy.
BG1+2 have a lot of goofy stuff going on in between. For most of that, you don't even need to look for it. It finds you and follows you and barely lets go of goofing around (Noober anyone?) But ToB included, it's still very obviously the story about
the offspring of the God Of Goddamn Murder battling it all out who may eventually succeed him -- with BG2 as the "distraction" from the main arc being about a dude not shy about killing and torturing people to get what he wants also.
Hugh Grant as Irenicus or Sarevok and Firkraag Ye Mighty Dragon being overweight to play it all for laughs? Probably not.
It might be different tonally, but when i see it I feel that the creators liked D&D/FR, accepted all its quirks and rolled with them, even though they also change things around like how time stop works. The same happens when I played BG1 and 2.
But it happened multiple times, it got better after getting farther into the game. I did try co-op with my buddy and he straight up quit because of that.
You are totally confusing objective data and subjective criticism/flaws as proven by the quote and your answer to Niara.
To be honnest it is really hilarious to read that "the greater number of lootable vase in BG3" is "definitely a thing that make BG3 better". Don't get me wrong I'm glad it is something you enjoy... But I've seen A LOT more complaints about inventory management and looting in BG3 than I read complaints about the lack of checks in dialogs in 2 games that were released 20 years ago.
I could even say that inventory management and looting is even more enjoyable in those 2 old games than in BG3^^ But sure it is subjective... exactly like your definition of a "better" role playing game.
I initially planned to give you objective data too but to be honnest it looks totally useless to talk with you and I'm done with endless discussions about BG3^^ BG3 is an awesome game but it's a very poor representation of the world in which it takes place... Which is at least as much important to me than "dialogs checks" to be a "better" role playing video game.
What would you consider as better representation of the world? Is this going to be an endless debate of what you personally think how the world looks and insist that it is indeed *the* world representation and how million other players probably wrong, but yours is not? Just checking.
Also yes, definitely, how many vase you can loot = better game. There is no possibility in the world that it was a sarcasm at all.
I did not create the Forgotten Realms. Go read books, play other video games, watch films or read internet articles if you are not inspired.
Then come back and tell me if throwing a potion at someone's feet would heal him in that world, if arrows are creating a wierd arc when shot, if cows climb ladders, if meteo doesn't exist and if time is frozen, if after walking 6 minutes characters can see a druid grove + a forest + a village + a ruined temple, if teleportation runes are common,...
These exemples only exist in Larian's personnal representation of this world. Of course you can insist that it is indeed *the* world representation and how million other players are probably wrong !
So the fact that you then proceeded to... do exactly that and list a handful of metrics by which one game exceeded the other, tells me that you did not engage with what was said, and did not read it with a discerning eye; you just wanted to look for something to argue about.
The difference is I'm trying to show you how foolish your list are. It's a sarcasm. Which you know and yet you think I'm serious, that I'm doing "exactly that".
What I was trying to do is to stop "abstract" assertion that "BG2 wuz better" by asking -specifically- what is it that make you think that, and ideally, admit that it's just rose-tinted biased opinion, which I believe it actually is.
Let's talk *specifically* which quest in BG2 vs specific quest in BG3, so that I can prove that Dex 10 and Dex 18 matters more in BG3 than BG2, because BG3 objectively better designed RPG Dialogue.
Let's talk *specifically* which dialogue lines in BG2 that you feel better vs specific dialogue in BG3 that prove Irenicus is better Villain than the entirety of BG3 villain gallery.
Let's talk *specifically* which aspect of Action combat RTS-esque of Infinity Engine games that feels more like DnD than literally DnD inspired "in your face" dice rolls in BG3.
Let's talk *specifically* why BG2 biowarean dialogue with astonishing amount of 2 Dialogue checks is better than BG3 Larian-whimsical writing with 100+ dialogue checks, somehow.
I respect that you want to move on to other topic.
I did not create the Forgotten Realms. Go read books, play other video games, watch films or read internet articles if you are not inspired.
Then come back and tell me if throwing a potion at someone's feet would heal him in that world, if arrows are creating a wierd arc when shot, if cows climb ladders, if meteo doesn't exist and if time is frozen, if after walking 6 minutes characters can see a druid grove + a forest + a village + a ruined temple, if teleportation runes are common,...
These exemples only exist in Larian's personnal representation of this world. Of course you can insist that it is indeed *the* world representation and how million other players are probably wrong !
I am sorry and I apologize in advance if I sound rude.
How on earth is this relate to "coherent at all with the world in which the story take place"?
These example exist because Rule of Cool. So please, take your "no fun allowed sign" out of here and put it somewhere else.
If you disagree, we can dig Gygax grave together and scream in his face that this shouldn't be written as DnD fundamentals. The only one who allowed to write is professional writer with their own headcanon to which I specifically agreed with.
I did not create the Forgotten Realms. Go read books, play other video games, watch films or read internet articles if you are not inspired.
Then come back and tell me if throwing a potion at someone's feet would heal him in that world, if arrows are creating a wierd arc when shot, if cows climb ladders, if meteo doesn't exist and if time is frozen, if after walking 6 minutes characters can see a druid grove + a forest + a village + a ruined temple, if teleportation runes are common,...
These exemples only exist in Larian's personnal representation of this world. Of course you can insist that it is indeed *the* world representation and how million other players are probably wrong !
I am sorry and I apologize in advance if I sound rude.
How on earth is this relate to "coherent at all with the world in which the story take place"?
These example exist because Rule of Fun. So please, take your "no fun allowed sign" out of here and put it somewhere else.
Your answer does not sound rude man... it just sound ridiculous^^ "TW3 would have been SO MUCH funnier if we could fast travel through teleportation runes rather than sign post" => This is ridiculous and this is your answer.
BG3 would have been a slightly better representation of the Forgotten Realms if fast travel was possible through sign post (or something like that) rather than through magical teleportation runes that doesn't exist in this world.
But as I said in the first answer talking with you is pointless. The guy trying to "prove" he's objective talking about Rules of fun
At least say yes or no, whether Rule of Cool is applicable or not (I typed "fun", but cool is often fun), which likely the reason of these changes, because video games indeed needs to be fun.
Edit: About "Objectivity".
If we want to talk about how it relates to Objectivity, which one is more fun: you cannot throw a potion, a physical object, within a game in which you are allowed to throw a non attached physical object (not all of them, but most of them, within relatively reasonable logic) *or* you can throw a potion vial, a physical object, within a game in which you are allowed to throw a non attached physical object.
I would like an explanation too on how does that even remotely - is or isn't - "coherent" at all to the world of Faerun. If possible. If such thing even exist.
I don't find "teleportation runes" more cool or fun than sign post. I don't find animal climbing ladders fun at all, nor the fact that night is only happening at camp when I click a button, nor the fact that arrows trajectory and speed looks like my 5 yo children suction pad projectile. And I absolutely don't find surfaces potions cool or fun... it looks ridiculous, it is absolutely overpowered and makes dying almost impossible, which is not something I find "cool" in a tactical turn based game.
Of course this is subjective. What is NOT is that it is not how things work in the FR. It doesn't need explanation man, just slight knowledge of what we're talking about.
I only speak about objectivity, as in "which one is objectively better in which game (BG2 vs BG3)" on specific topic, specifically stuff that both exist in BG2 and BG3.
You listed your gripes in BG3, subjective gripes. I tried to pick one example, throwing potions, explained it to you why it needs to be there since it's how the physical rule within the game world works. (none of these things exist in BG2 btw, which is not a compliment.)
It is subjectively fun, objectively coherent to the version of the world Larian made, subjectively part of the Rule of Cool, objectively part of general consensus as to what made BG3 a better game..... these are my subjective opinion, it can only subjective because there is no comparison to it, if there is a comparison then we can now which one is *objectively* a better implementation of the mechanics.
Your complain is the same as if I was to complain that nobody in Balder Goot 1 and 2 can jump. Does the concept of Jumping is not part of "how things works in Faerun"?
Got that?
Second. How does thing works in Forgotten Realms? Does nobody ever throw a vial which contain liquids ever in the world of Faerun? Does Vial of Liquids never fell down from a table? Does rule of physic as we know it does not applies in Faerun?
You are coming across as confrontational, fractious, and more than a little bit facetious, Dex. If it's not your intention to come cross that way, then please understand that that is how the tone of your posting reads. You 'sound' as though you are spoiling for a fight and wanting other people to 'come at you'. Again, if that's not what you're trying to do, then it might be best if you take some extra time to check your posts and vet them for tone before you post them - I have to do this quite often, and usually give my posts three or four passes until their language is acceptable. Even then, I sometimes come across too harsh.
(Response to the above 'challenge' remark, spoilered for moderate off-topic since the conversation is trying to move on)
Originally Posted by Dext. Paladin
The difference is I'm trying to show you how foolish your list are. It's a sarcasm. Which you know and yet you think I'm serious, that I'm doing "exactly that".
What you're demonstrating is that you did not read or engage with what I said, and that you're still not doing so. You come across as fishing for an argument which I'm not interested in having with you. Yes; you do sound rude. Yes; you're using confrontational language and baiting terms in this thread. No; I'm not interested.
Here's the point of my original post:
You said:
Originally Posted by Dext. Paladin
Because literally everything else outside the Story is objectively worse than BG3.
You claimed that literally Everything outside of the subjective story element, was Objectively better in BG3. That is what you said. There's no “I was only talking about this specific thing when I said that” - you said it bluntly as a universal.
Max responded asking you not to claim something so obviously false and silly, presumably because he, like others here, find that it undermines anything else of value you might have to contribute:
Originally Posted by Maximuus
Don't say "objectively" when you are giving your own opinion... No, everything else is not worse in BG2.
You responded by doubling down on your assertion:
Originally Posted by Dext. Paladin
I am sorry because I'm gonna say exactly that. BG1/2 is objectively worse than BG3 on everything else except for story which are highly subjective.
You repeated, with no qualification and as an absolute universal, that BG1 and 2 are objectively worse in every way, and by every metric of comparison, except subjective story-related ones. You claimed this was an objective truth, external to anyone's subjective opinion. That is what you said, and reiterated; no hedging, qualifying or side-stepping, you were very clear.
Everyone here knows that this statement is ridiculous, but more importantly, that it is Objectively False. Everyone talking here knows that it's a rather silly thing to assert, and will just make you look like you're not interested in having a serious conversation, moreso for trying to defend it after the fact.
It takes away from the weight or value of anything else you might say or any other way you might contribute to the discussion, because it is so silly a claim to try to assert; maybe it's sarcastic hyperbole - and presumably it is - because I don't think anyone here thinks you're that stupid; I certainly don't... but the point being made to you is that using hyperbole like that throws a lot of shade on your own legitimacy in the conversation, and actively undermines the chances of anything else you have to say being taken seriously - or even read at all, by some folks.
That is all I dropped in to say. Don't do that; it detracts from your ability to get your point across or to be taken seriously by others.
Quote
What I was trying to do is to stop "abstract" assertion that "BG2 wuz better" by asking -specifically- what is it that make you think that, and ideally, admit that it's just rose-tinted biased opinion, which I believe it actually is.
By all means do that – but don't do it by using nonsense hyperbole that makes you look the fool and detracts from the value of anything else you might say.
For the record: You also may have missed the point where I said I was not forwarding my own opinion on the matter at all (which I have at no point given on this topic), just illustrating an issue in your comment using the examples that others had already talked about in the thread.
Quote
Let's talk *specifically*....
No. That is not and was not in any way related to the point I was asking you to consider in respect to your discussion habits.
Challenge away; this isn't a fight or an argument, and I'm not interested in your apparent desire to make it one. I'm only offering some advice to you, that you are free to take or leave as you see fit. I can't offer it any more clearly than this, so that is the end of this tangent as far as I'm concerned.
Outside of that, I will say that the things most recently brought up for specific discussion on are all, every one of them, subjective matters. The claim that having your character ability scores affect your dialogue options, and having dialogue checks rolled for conversation options is 'better' than if those things were not being present is, itself, a subjective opinion; Dex may 'prove' all they like; there are others who feel that your character scores should not determine what you can or cannot say in roleplay, and that certain things should not require checks at all - that requiring checks is actually a hindrance to character play, and that having in-your-face dice rolls across the screen in the middle of conversations is immersion-breaking and ultimately bad for investment in the story and immersion in scenes. One may attempt to 'prove' all they like – any opinion that any of that makes one game superior over another is subjective.
Second. How does thing works in Forgotten Realms? Does nobody ever throw a vial which contain liquids ever in the world of Faerun? Does Vial of Liquids never fell down from a table? Does rule of physic as we know it does not applies in Faerun?
Do I really have to write it is about the potion effects applying when someone is walking/standing in the liquid or when someone throw the potion on your body for you to understand what this specific point is about ?
I'm done with you. You are close minded and/or just don't want to discuss.
Second. How does thing works in Forgotten Realms? Does nobody ever throw a vial which contain liquids ever in the world of Faerun? Does Vial of Liquids never fell down from a table? Does rule of physic as we know it does not applies in Faerun?
Do I really have to write it is about the potion effects applying when someone is walking/standing in the liquid or when someone throw the potion on your body for you to understand what this specific point is about ?
I'm done with you. You are close minded and/or just don't want to discuss.
I agree about the potion throwing, which is, why i never use that. It is like you throw a bottle of coghing drops at someones feet and hope, that will cure their coughing. It just doesn't work that way with substances, that are supposed to be consumed.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Guys lets watch how we are phrasing replies so they do not come across in unintended ways.
To address a few points made:
Tranportation Portals: The wide use of the transportation portals is a concession to computer gaming and the fact that a HUGE number of players will hate on a game without fast travel options. While the portals like this is not "lore", it is a normal and often expected CRPG game mechanic.
Throwing Potions: This one is a stretch for sure. I think the most likely answer is that this was a game mechanic Larian had used before and they thought it was cool. Personally I agree it is out of place and even it was viable I hate the implementation. If the throwing potion works then you should only get the MINIMAL effect possible from the potion as a huge part of it is wasted. However I agree this just should not exist.
Second. How does thing works in Forgotten Realms? Does nobody ever throw a vial which contain liquids ever in the world of Faerun? Does Vial of Liquids never fell down from a table? Does rule of physic as we know it does not applies in Faerun?
Do I really have to write it is about the potion effects applying when someone is walking/standing in the liquid or when someone throw the potion on your body for you to understand what this specific point is about ?
I'm done with you. You are close minded and/or just don't want to discuss.
I agree about the f potion throwing, which is, why i never use that. It is like you throw a bottle of coghing drops at someones feet and hope, that will cure their coughing. It just doesn't work that way with substances, that are supposed to be consumed.
Indeed, it is not because something is allowed in the game that one must use it. On tabletop, everything is in principle possible , except that which the DM does not allow. So I also won't use things that I, as a DM, I would not allow myself. Potion throwing, but also for instance picking up an enemy and throwing it from a height. I saw that on a vid. Didn't imagine you could do this. But it would just not fit the gameplay for me. It's like it wasn't there at all. But maybe it's not too bad to offer all kinds of options for different styles of play than worm everyone in a strict pattern. What do I care if others make use of crazy options. As long as the "normal" actions are there, like actually drinking the potion, then it 's ok.
I do use fast travel though. But it's just to avoid wasting time running up and down the same roads over and over again.
Guys lets watch how we are phrasing replies so they do not come across in unintended ways.
To address a few points made:
[list] [*]Tranportation Portals: The wide use of the transportation portals is a concession to computer gaming and the fact that a HUGE number of players will hate on a game without fast travel options. While the portals like this is not "lore", it is a normal and often expected CRPG game mechanic.
The game mechanic called "fast travel" (that I also like in that kind of "open world" map) exist in many games in which there are no teleportation portals... It has nothing to do with concession, it has to do with the choice they made to design the system arround "not lore" magical portals. This is one exemple among many others in which they could have made a better representation of the world without even changing the mechanics at all.
@Ido58 Not playing TT but I find it hard to imagine that a DM would allow players to throw potions at each other to heal, especially when the rules say "drink". And please don't come back with the "don't use it" argument again... the AI use it all the time.
Guys lets watch how we are phrasing replies so they do not come across in unintended ways.
To address a few points made:
[list] [*]Tranportation Portals: The wide use of the transportation portals is a concession to computer gaming and the fact that a HUGE number of players will hate on a game without fast travel options. While the portals like this is not "lore", it is a normal and often expected CRPG game mechanic.
The game mechanic called "fast travel" (that I also like in that kind of "open world" map) exist in many games in which there are no teleportation portals... It has nothing to do with concession, it has to do with the choice they made to design the system arround "not lore" magical portals. This is one exemple among many others in which they could have made a better representation of the world without even changing the mechanics at all.
@Ido58 Not playing TT but I find it hard to imagine that a DM would allow players to throw potions at each other to heal, especially when the rules say "drink". And please don't come back with the "don't use it" argument again... the AI use it all the time.
Does it really ? I'm lucky then that none of my partymembers has ever been lifted up and thrown away from a height by a strong monster. I really can't recall seeing the baddies throwing a potion of haste or invisibility in a crowd who then all benefit from it. Granted some of the big battles switch so rapidly from one point to another that it may have happened with a healing potion without me noticing.
The game mechanic called "fast travel" (that I also like in that kind of "open world" map) exist in many games in which there are no teleportation portals... It has nothing to do with concession, it has to do with the choice they made to design the system arround "not lore" magical portals. This is one exemple among many others in which they could have made a better representation of the world without even changing the mechanics at all. .
I get your point... I even agree.. Magic Portals are in and of themself lore based but the all over the place nature is not. Looks like they took a minor lore function (seen them used in many books but for very specific locations) and then thought what a cool idea and just used them for fast travel. Your right however, I think use of road signs would have worked just as well and even been better but even that does not work as some of the locations would not have had road signs. They wanted an all in one type solution and this is what they chose.
