After finishing the game with romanced Astarion I have to say this is my favourite character and romance in any game I've played, so thank you Larian for giving us such a delicious treat! Despite the romance being generally fulfilling there are still things that could use improvements and some extra dialogues and scenes are sorely missing. Here are my observations and suggestions after finishing my Tav's story and watching vids of alternative routes, organised according to the acts of the game.
Act 1 1. The mirror scene - after it or during the scene as an alternative approach Tav should be able to suggest to Astarion to use the tadpole so he can physically see himself through their eyes, just as he sees
his scars during the ascension scene.
Another possibility is teaching him to conjure up a mirror image if Tav is magically inclined or asking Gale to help out. Let Astarion finally see his own face!
2. At the end of the first romance scene triggered before the grove celebration Astarion asks Tav to leave before more people thank him for saving their tails, which is clearly a thing from early access where it was impossible to be with him before the grove battle. He should have a different line there.
3. When propositioning Tav the second time during the grove celebration Astarion says he'd find them after everyone was asleep. When they eventually meet up they are actually standing right where they saw each other last (in my game I still saw people walking around in the background). I think they should reunite either while exiting the camp or somewhere outside of it altogether. What would really elevate this scene is some extra playfulness, for example Astarion grabbing Tav's hand and sneakily running off together (they should be more comfortable with each other at this point after all) or, if they do meet up in a different location, Astarion could pull Tav in for a kiss.
4. My Tav was a drow and I honestly cannot remember him ever making a comment about it. I was expecting him to be a bit mistrustful due to drow race's backstabbing reputation and asking her at some point if she intended to treat him like a glorified pet as is customary in the majority of their matriarchal society. There should have been extra RP options for Lolth-sworn characters to be more intimidating and dominant and maybe him showing some discomfort about it as a prelude to his trauma reveal and for Seldarines to say they reject the rules of that society and see him as an individual and not a plaything.
Act 2 1. During early access I remember seeing a video from mmogurl where Gale propositioned Tav knowing they had already been involved with Astarion and it was possible to refuse him on the account of not wanting to hurt Astarion and Gale even commented that Astarion was lucky and that loyalty like that was a rare thing. In the release version I saw no such dialogue, in fact Gale invited my Tav to see the starry sky, professed his love and there was zero mention of our lovely vampire. The only way to refuse Gale was saying we didn't love him back. It would be nice to have that option restored. For science, I tested what would happen if we kissed Gale but not gone all the way. He then talks about being excited that Tav is in love with him (Tav never said it) and how wonderful their honks was, which never even happened lol. Afterwards, Astarion wants Tav to choose between them, and when he is picked, he is happy telling her she can consider herself well and truly taken. It looks like Wyll is not informed about that because right afterwards he tries to seduce her with the dance scene. After kissing Wyll there is yet another dialogue with Astarion asking to choose him or Wyll, finished on the same note about Tav being properly taken. It looks like the romance flags here are completely wonky. And if it's actually supposed to be this way somehow, Astarion should be upset with Tav for getting involved with someone else when they're supposed to be a thing already. Interestingly enough, Gale only propositions Tav before talking to Araj Oblodra, afterwards there is no projection of his during the evening and Astarion can safely confess to Tav. The dance scene with Wyll never triggers then as well.
2. When killing the
rat figure before encountering the orthon Tav has no way to honour the deal with Raphael once they start talking to Yurgir. Astarion gets very angry and has the same reaction as he does when agreeing to help the orthon fulfill his contract before finding the rat person. He should definitely have different lines because at that point Tav has literally no clue they are sabotaging Astarion. Perhaps Astarion could realise his deal is about to become void when Yurgir explains what is happening to him and urges Tav to kill him quickly before Raphael shows up to collect the devil.
3. The confession scene after talking to Araj Oblodra should be expanded and reworked. The only way for him to express his feelings is to ask him why he slept with Tav. It would be nice if he said how he felt no matter what. In this scene he also never tells Tav that intimacy with them still feels tainted to him, which is a crucial part of his romance so the option to tell him to abstain from sleeping together seems to come out of nowhere. We can easily headcanon here they never take a break, which is not what actually happens.
4. Apparently, after the 'I want us to be something real' confession scene we can still force Astarion to bite Araj and he won't have anything to say about it afterwards. That's an oversight.
5. Astarion needs a heartfelt, infinite hug option after his confession or at least during more painful parts of his storyline.
6. I'd like to hear other companions make comments about Tav and Astarion's relationship after they decide to be something real. Some extra camp gossip is always fun!
Act 3 1. It would be nice to have a small conversation with Astarion after the love test with the dryad to hear what he has to say about her verdict.
2. When Halsin propositions Tav and we ask Astarion what he thinks about the idea, there needs to be an option to tell him we only wanted to hear his opinion about it but had no intention of going through with it because he's the only one for us and then be able to reject Halsin despite Astarion's theatrical approval. He does say he'd wondered when Tav would mention it and had seen Halsin's yearning since the grove itself, he deserves some extra reassurance of love here after all the anguish and uncertainty he'd quietly gone through.
3. If engaging in polyamory with Halsin, Astarion has zero dialogue afterwards, which is rather strange. It's only logical they'd both want to check up on each other how they're doing. Astarion also wouldn't fail to make fun of Halsin some more and ask Tav about his performance. Tav could say that a) it was everything they wished for b) it was wilder than they expected and they may need some time to recover from it (the bear form exclusive option) c) it was good and they're curious to see what happens next d) it was fun but nowhere near as fun as with Astarion, but for now they'd see how it goes e) it was fine, but they kept thinking about Astarion throughout the night and are still unsure if they want to keep it as a one time thing or keep going f) they regret it, it doesn't compare to the bond with Astarion and they would break up with Halsin the next time they talk g) they didn't do it after all (if Tav changes their mind during the scene)
4. Astarion should have a conversation post- drow twins scene - he is clearly not ok during the act and Tav should be able to comfort him afterwards.
5. The Haarlep scene - Astarion should honestly be shouting at Tav and asking them what the hell they are doing.
He was abused for centuries and seeing Tav getting coerced and selling themselves like that should make his blood boil and evoke a very emotional response. There needs to be a persausion check to tell Astarion to calm down. Even then, if he gets persuaded to not interfere, after Haarlep gives away certain secrets and prepares to leave, gloating about misusing Tav's body, he should sneak up on the incubus and murder him in cold blood before he gets away. Spawn Astarion should do it very angrily and ascended with cold precision saying something very mean to him while shanking him.
6. After meeting
Araj again in act 3 and being asked to drink the disgusting potion, Astarion tells Tav to dispose of the bottle but I think he should also protest and pressure Tav into refusing to take the bottle in the first place. The potion would mess with their blood and since Tav is his little treat he would not want their 'bouquet' to be contaminated with filth. In my game I accepted the bottle, destroyed it and told her about it. Astarion swiftly killed Araj when she turned hostile but to my disappointment he had no comment about what happened. As an ascendant he says he wants to see her dead before entering her house and as spawn that he pities her. He should either be gloating over her corpse, or feel somewhat remorseful but also relieved depending on his identity.
7. Considering
Raphael's involvement in Astarion's storyline, him being a devil and Mephistopheles's son, there really needs to be a conversation where Raphael is in awe if we went through with ascension. Per his own words - the ritual was diabolical and so vile, no one'd ever done it before. It should be a big deal to him that it actually took place and he should also have some extra comments towards vampire lord Astarion if he's in the party. I imagine he might make some snide remarks about spawn Tav as well, after all he trashes them for romancing the Emperor. Maybe even give Tav a sick burn in response when stealing the hammer from him?
8. After ascending Astarion
and meeting the Gur, when Ulma asks us to side with her and kill Astarion, we should have a romance specific line saying something like 'I will not let you lay a finger on my lover; back away or die.'
9. Post ascension conversation when Astarion asks Tav how he can reward them should be a bit longer with Astarion using more persuasion techniques. Secondly, this scene could use some extra options.
In act 1 he mentions feeling Tav's shakes of excitement, right after ascension he can hear their heartbeat and them holding their breath - clearly he can read Tav's body language easily (plus the worm connects them) and he should say something similar here too, like he can tell they want it but they're too scared to follow their desires, sneer that they still choose to be naive (reference to early act 2 dialogue) when they can become more powerful and never have to worry about losing him and dying of old age. What's more, why can't we tell him we would like to go on a date with him? Spend some quality time together away from the rest of the group? We can only be thirsty for his body or his power, lecture him or be upset with him. Some more romantic and playful options would have been neat too. Of course, he would still spin the conversation so he can offer vampirism. An option to tease him if that is his idea of a marriage proposal would be funny. A serious one to be able to call him out on him manipulating Tav and pushing them to make a decision and demanding his sincerity is also welcome, where he'd reply similarly as he does post rejection where he mentions he was really trying with Tav and doing things the only way he knew how.
10. It's possible to finish the game
without turning into a spawn and still staying with ascended Astarion as a romance partner by jumping through hoops, but for the sake of extra options it would also be nice if we could tell him we wanted some time to decide when he offers to turn Tav the evening after ascension. He could at least give them one day to make up their mind, that's not too much to ask for. It would be nice as well to be able to discuss it with other companions to hear what they think about Astarion's proposal.
11. When Tav joins Astarion in immortality their look doesn't change whatsoever. We can use the magic mirror as a workaround to change Tav's eyes to red and make their skin lighter but they will still miss vampiric fangs.
12. Everyone should have something to say to Tav about them becoming a spawn, it's a drastic and permanent change for the character, same as DU choice. There is this one dialogue with Karlach about Astarion if we talk to her after the ritual. However, if we trigger it before becoming a spawn we miss out on her input about Tav.
13. It would have been cool if there was a new option for mortal Tav who rejected ascended Astarion's offer to have a change of heart before the end of the game, for example after dealing with the Chosen. It could be a scene during a long rest where Tav wakes up at night reminiscing and regretting how things turned out (Astarion does tell Tav they'd regret leaving him, let's see that actually happen!). The narrator could then ask distressed Tav if they wanted to approach Astarion about it or not. After selecting 'yes' a dialogue option would open up where Tav would be able to tell Astarion how they missed him and realised their mistake, how they didn't want to have a future without him, etc. I reckon he'd need some persuasion checks to forgive Tav but eventually he'd cave in. It would lead to the same romance scene but he would be a bit more pushy and even aggressive if Tav hesitated. For some extra angst, perhaps, similar to the outcome where he refuses to break up with Tav, and only if he was provoked sufficiently enough, he would actually attempt to turn Tav no matter what (he admits in a threatening manner he should have done it after the break up - I imagine in this scenario he would lose his restraint). Tav would then decide to give in or fight him. There could be a constitution or strength check where Astarion succeeds or fails and in case of failure he'd leave the party permanently. After succeeding, the morning afterwards there would be several options to initiate a dialogue, including a throwback to the time he kills Tav while drinking from them the first time with angry Tav wanting to punch him and complaining he killed them yet again.
14. It is not entirely clear who Tav is as a vampire. Astarion says they're his spawn, yet Tav can actually use the bite on him, which would turn them into a true vampire, according to Astarion's own testimony. Unless that only works when he consents to it with an actual intention of making Tav a true vampire? Moreover, I heard of theories that suggest that he actually turns Tav into a vampire bride by offering his blood during the transition. Although it is only a drop of blood, but maybe it's enough for the ascendant spawn? If Tav is a bride, he actually shouldn't be able to compel them, because even without the tadpole they would keep their free will, but of course he could still manipulate them into thinking he can and use physical force and magic to keep them nearby. Or maybe as ascendant he can still compel even a bride and a true vampire? Too many questions.
15. Spawn Tav never has the option to tell ascended Astarion they love him if they stay with him till the end. He still deserves love and kindness, right?
16. The last kiss that should count for something is ridiculous. It's the same chaste peck on the lips like all the other kisses Tav can share with him! It should be unique and memorable.
17. There is a scene where we can have a discussion about becoming
an illithid after accepting the worm from the Emperor.
However, Astarion has nothing to say to Tav after
freeing Orpheus and taking a moment to decide if they will sacrifice themselves. It's unbelievable if we blatantly refuse the Emperor right away but also quite bad if we did indeed have the previous debate. It is his last chance to convince them to remain his beautiful lover and he's silent? No way! He's never particularly fond of Tav playing a hero and he should be desperate to keep them away from tentacles at that point; with ascended being all 'Don't you even think about it! You are NOT doing this and turning into a slimy freak. I've given you immortality, just think of our glorious future together! Surely you wouldn't discard my love and my gift just like that? I don't care how many people have to die there or if I personally have to shove a worm inside someone's skull, you will NOT throw away everything we have and CAN have for some dumb heroics. I will NOT lose you to this.'; and spawn 'You MUST reconsider this. Think about what will happen to you, to us. We've come so far together, I don't want to lose you, I don't want you to lose yourself! You will no longer be YOU. Leave heroics out to someone else this time, alright? There has to be some desperate hero out there without a beautiful vampire lover by their side who can have this dubious honour in your stead'.
18. Romanced ascended Astarion as one of the allies in the final battle should have a unique response to Tav when offering his support, for example: 'My dark forces are at your disposal in the battles ahead, my love. Our foes don't stand a chance against our might.'
19. Ascended Astarion tries to persuade Tav to
control the brain so they can rule together
but it's actually not possible in the game and he will become
Tavzador's thrall for eternity. If the Chosen could rule together, why can't Tav/DU and him?
20. The 'good' spawn ending is depressing and disrespectful to Astarion.
He sacrificed himself for the dubious greater good, acting completely against his own nature and he's rewarded with lame comments from other companions and indifference from his lover, while he runs for his life and, as depicted in his origin ending, ends up completely alone, sulking behind some cargo in a fetal position. #JusticeforAstarion!
21. The ending conversation
with ascended Astarion is well written and his excited laugh at the end is a chef's kiss. One thing however that I found questionable is Astarion saying their enemies had fallen but then Tav has the option to say 'let's put our enemies to the sword'. Which enemies? Aren't they already dead? Meanwhile, spawn Astarion's interaction is just... sad. He is still very insecure about their relationship despite him and Tav already having decided they want to be committed to each other during the graveyard scene - the dialogue should reflect their previous declaration. After abandoning the ritual it's understandable he seems lost and unsure what to do next, but at the end of the game he should at least have some kind of idea of what he'd like their future to look like, yet he still has no plans and even suggestions and basically leaves everything up to Tav to decide if they stay together and what their next steps are. Despite him saying they are equals, it really doesn't look that way.
22. The 'good' ending conversation should generally be more intimate and engaging. It doesn't even look like they're truly celebrating their victory. They stand away from each other like strangers and are quite business like. Why won't ascendant hold Tav in his lap and spawn cuddle up with them on the bed with his arm around them, why don't they hold hands for a bit while they talk, touch each other's arms and faces? Actually act like people in love who are relieved they finally have a moment to themselves after all the hard work?
23. Spawn Tav/DU
who broke up with Astarion before the end of the game and is alive, not a squid, not involved with anyone else and not gone to other planes,I think should have an ending scene with him where he decides to reeducate them and remind them they made an eternal commitment and are still bound to him. He should offer them one last chance to get back with him, and if initially refused he should threaten them with confinement until they change their mind or simply say they'd have to stay with him regardless as his thrall and right hand and they can only choose to make their life more or less pleasant.
24. Mortal Tav/DU
who refused to be his spawn but accepted to be his partner in crime should also have a unique ending with him where they scheme together and Astarion would cheekily ask if they are still sure they don't want to mix business with pleasure and Tav can admit willingness to get back with him and even becoming his spawn immediately or eventually. This scene should also occur for illithid Tav, but play out similarly to the romanced spawn Tav who became an illithid with Astarion refusing to have any romantic connection with them.
25. Some epilogue cutscenes or slides would be great. For example,
ascendant redecorating the Szarr mansion with his consort (he hates the distasteful art and ugly carpets after all), throwing a party, sitting on a throne together, spawn burning the mansion down, Astarion and Tav leaving Baldur's Gate to travel the world, buried in books investigating how to make Astarion walk in the sun, settling in somewhere, etc.
26. When evil DU
prepares for the confrontation with Bhaal in the 'good ending' and Astarion can indeed compel them, he should notice something is off about them and use his powers in that moment to fight with Bhaal for control over DU's murderous instincts. DU should have a saving throw where they either submit to Bhaal or Astarion or stab themselves.
The Araj convo should be two different conversations. Talk about what happened with her first and then move on to the confession. Now it's even possible to make him bite her and still keep the romance through very questionable dialogue choices.
The dryad's love test in Act 3: even if you take the test after freeing Astarion from Cazador, the answers are still the same. His greatest desire is vengeance on Cazador. This breaks immersion a lot for me. Would be nice to see some change in his responses. Ascended version might crave to rule the whole world with his consort, the non-ascended version might be more sincere, just 'want to live'.
But I imagine this is problem for all the companions, although I am not sure, never tried it in the game. For example I doubt there is any difference between Selunite and Sharan version of Shadowheart or with Lae'zel if she is still loyal to Vlakith or not.
I absolutely agree! Thank you for writing it all down.
I would just add one thing regarding the Halsin romance:
After we refused Halsin`s proposition (for players that donīt want a "polyromance" ) we could still talk about it with Astarion where he gives his consent at first, which Tav sees through via an insight check or reading his mind. If they succeed and they realise that Astarion is indeed lying about beeing ok with the whole Halsin thing, they could tell Astarion that he can talk about everything with them and he confesses that he agreed only because he was afraid to loose Tav. After their talk Astarion could hug Tav (we have far too few romantic interactions in my oppinion :)) and Tav could reasure him of their love and devotion to him and that he is the only one for them.
It would fit with his story much better but if someone wants to pursue a relationship with both, they still can.
(There should be consequences after submitting to Mizoraīs advances...just saying)
And the old romance scene from before the patch should be reinstated, the new one lacks somehow the hotness from the old one!
I love this and agree or somewhat agree with most of these, although they are pretty ambitious suggestions. Here's what I'm thinking:
Act 1
Ad 1. I would accept any way of of showing Astarion how he looks like, some of them are already in the game! For example, artisan Tav could just draw him. He could have additional dialogue after Act 3
where you can buy a statue of him
. In act 3 you could also ask specifically
for the painter to paint him
.
Ad 2&4. Definitely agreed there.
Act 2
Ad 1. In general, if you are already involved with any companion, any other romance scene triggering after that should have a gentle let-down option (just like Halsin) of "I am with X, I will not do anything to compromise that."
Ad 3. In this particular scene, hugging him should not end the conversation. Iirc there are 2 options to act
(tadpole or a hug
and some options to say something. These should be split.
I am specifically upset I cannot hug him first, then tell him I will wait for as long as he takes for him to be ready
.
Ad 5. All companions do. At the very least all romanceable companions, like the kiss option.
Ad 6. Again I think applicable to any romanced companion. Have them all say something after Tav commits to someone.
Act 3.
Ad 2. YES! I have specifically followed through to hear the
EnJoyInG tHe FrEedOM oF nAtUrEs gIFtS
line, but then was locked into the Halsin scene. Moreover
I backed out and still got Halsin thinking we are a thing.
Ad 4. I would like instead an insight check option with an additional dialogue option along the lines of "I don't think this was a good idea after all, you are not okay, should we stop?". Checking in during the act and stopping it is a great option to allow Astarion the space to explore while being conscious of his trauma responses.
Ad 5. Any romanced companion should have something to say, after all
ThEy Are RIgT tHeRe!!
when you do it. Meanwhile, Astarion should
100% enter stabby rage mode afterwards, ensuring Tav does not end up bound to Harleep. I am not sure if there is a scene or dialogue if you go through with the Harleep deal and THEN kill him, but if he does not he definitely should express happiness that Tav is not enslaved. Although perhaps if you do this before Cazador, perhaps him just standing there is accurate - after all his self-esteem is trash at that point
Ad 12. Agreed, they all have stuff to say if you
eat tadpoles
Ad 16. Yup, latest patch added some new and cute, unique animations for companion kisses in general I think - but not for all of them. They should all get a unique one to add variety.
Ad 17. Yes and the lines you wrote out are ridiculously in character for him
Ad 20. And then there is also Gale
snarkily commenting they will never see him again. Who is we sir? I am going with my husband to the Underdark. And you are lucky I do not fireball you on the spot for even suggesting that. And if Tav romanced Astarion, they should run after him and either stay with him behind the crates, or at least reassure him they will meet later.
Additionally, spawn Astarion storyline could again be tidied up by fleshing out something ALREADY in the game
the creepy necromancy book combined with the creepier necromancy book you find in act 3. Together, if read, they should provide at least a recipe to craft a sun immunity ring/cape/diadem - whatever. Or a spell to bring him back from the undeath.
.
Ad 25. Ending slides or scenes would be great. Like the one
they patched in for Karlach
. Alternatively a DLC
like the Citadel for Mass Effect.
Bottom line: Larian let me hug my husband at will! He needs it.
After finishing the game with romanced Astarion I have to say this is my favourite character and romance in any game I've played, so thank you Larian for giving us such a delicious treat! Despite the romance being generally fulfilling there are still things that could use improvements and some extra dialogues and scenes are sorely missing. Here are my observations and suggestions after finishing my Tav's story and watching vids of alternative routes, organised according to the acts of the game.
Act 1 1. The mirror scene - after it or during the scene as an alternative approach Tav should be able to suggest to Astarion to use the tadpole so he can physically see himself through their eyes, just as he sees
his scars during the ascension scene.
Another possibility is teaching him to conjure up a mirror image if Tav is magically inclined or asking Gale to help out. Let Astarion finally see his own face!
2. At the end of the first romance scene triggered before the grove celebration Astarion asks Tav to leave before more people thank him for saving their tails, which is clearly a thing from early access where it was impossible to be with him before the grove battle. He should have a different line there.
3. When propositioning Tav the second time during the grove celebration Astarion says he'd find them after everyone was asleep. When they eventually meet up they are actually standing right where they saw each other last (in my game I still saw people walking around in the background). I think they should reunite either while exiting the camp or somewhere outside of it altogether. What would really elevate this scene is some extra playfulness, for example Astarion grabbing Tav's hand and sneakily running off together (they should be more comfortable with each other at this point after all) or, if they do meet up in a different location, Astarion could pull Tav in for a kiss.
4. My Tav was a drow and I honestly cannot remember him ever making a comment about it. I was expecting him to be a bit mistrustful due to drow race's backstabbing reputation and asking her at some point if she intended to treat him like a glorified pet as is customary in the majority of their matriarchal society. There should have been extra RP options for Lolth-sworn characters to be more intimidating and dominant and maybe him showing some discomfort about it as a prelude to his trauma reveal and for Seldarines to say they reject the rules of that society and see him as an individual and not a plaything.
Act 2 1. During early access I remember seeing a video from mmogurl where Gale propositioned Tav knowing they had already been involved with Astarion and it was possible to refuse him on the account of not wanting to hurt Astarion and Gale even commented that Astarion was lucky and that loyalty like that was a rare thing. In the release version I saw no such dialogue, in fact Gale invited my Tav to see the starry sky, professed his love and there was zero mention of our lovely vampire. The only way to refuse Gale was saying we didn't love him back. It would be nice to have that option restored. For science, I tested what would happen if we kissed Gale but not gone all the way. He then talks about being excited that Tav is in love with him (Tav never said it) and how wonderful their honks was, which never even happened lol. Afterwards, Astarion wants Tav to choose between them, and when he is picked, he is happy telling her she can consider herself well and truly taken. It looks like Wyll is not informed about that because right afterwards he tries to seduce her with the dance scene. After kissing Wyll there is yet another dialogue with Astarion asking to choose him or Wyll, finished on the same note about Tav being properly taken. It looks like the romance flags here are completely wonky. And if it's actually supposed to be this way somehow, Astarion should be upset with Tav for getting involved with someone else when they're supposed to be a thing already. Interestingly enough, Gale only propositions Tav before talking to Araj Oblodra, afterwards there is no projection of his during the evening and Astarion can safely confess to Tav. The dance scene with Wyll never triggers then as well.
2. When killing the
rat figure before encountering the orthon Tav has no way to honour the deal with Raphael once they start talking to Yurgir. Astarion gets very angry and has the same reaction as he does when agreeing to help the orthon fulfill his contract before finding the rat person. He should definitely have different lines because at that point Tav has literally no clue they are sabotaging Astarion. Perhaps Astarion could realise his deal is about to become void when Yurgir explains what is happening to him and urges Tav to kill him quickly before Raphael shows up to collect the devil.
3. The confession scene after talking to Araj Oblodra should be expanded and reworked. The only way for him to express his feelings is to ask him why he slept with Tav. It would be nice if he said how he felt no matter what. In this scene he also never tells Tav that intimacy with them still feels tainted to him, which is a crucial part of his romance so the option to tell him to abstain from sleeping together seems to come out of nowhere. We can easily headcanon here they never take a break, which is not what actually happens.
4. Apparently, after the 'I want us to be something real' confession scene we can still force Astarion to bite Araj and he won't have anything to say about it afterwards. That's an oversight.
5. Astarion needs a heartfelt, infinite hug option after his confession or at least during more painful parts of his storyline.
6. I'd like to hear other companions make comments about Tav and Astarion's relationship after they decide to be something real. Some extra camp gossip is always fun!
Act 3 1. It would be nice to have a small conversation with Astarion after the love test with the dryad to hear what he has to say about her verdict.
2. When Halsin propositions Tav and we ask Astarion what he thinks about the idea, there needs to be an option to tell him we only wanted to hear his opinion about it but had no intention of going through with it because he's the only one for us and then be able to reject Halsin despite Astarion's theatrical approval. He does say he'd wondered when Tav would mention it and had seen Halsin's yearning since the grove itself, he deserves some extra reassurance of love here after all the anguish and uncertainty he'd quietly gone through.
3. If engaging in polyamory with Halsin, Astarion has zero dialogue afterwards, which is rather strange. It's only logical they'd both want to check up on each other how they're doing. Astarion also wouldn't fail to make fun of Halsin some more and ask Tav about his performance. Tav could say that a) it was everything they wished for b) it was wilder than they expected and they may need some time to recover from it (the bear form exclusive option) c) it was good and they're curious to see what happens next d) it was fun but nowhere near as fun as with Astarion, but for now they'd see how it goes e) it was fine, but they kept thinking about Astarion throughout the night and are still unsure if they want to keep it as a one time thing or keep going f) they regret it, it doesn't compare to the bond with Astarion and they would break up with Halsin the next time they talk g) they didn't do it after all (if Tav changes their mind during the scene)
4. Astarion should have a conversation post- drow twins scene - he is clearly not ok during the act and Tav should be able to comfort him afterwards.
5. The Haarlep scene - Astarion should honestly be shouting at Tav and asking them what the hell they are doing.
He was abused for centuries and seeing Tav getting coerced and selling themselves like that should make his blood boil and evoke a very emotional response. There needs to be a persausion check to tell Astarion to calm down. Even then, if he gets persuaded to not interfere, after Haarlep gives away certain secrets and prepares to leave, gloating about misusing Tav's body, he should sneak up on the incubus and murder him in cold blood before he gets away. Spawn Astarion should do it very angrily and ascended with cold precision saying something very mean to him while shanking him.
6. After meeting
Araj again in act 3 and being asked to drink the disgusting potion, Astarion tells Tav to dispose of the bottle but I think he should also protest and pressure Tav into refusing to take the bottle in the first place. The potion would mess with their blood and since Tav is his little treat he would not want their 'bouquet' to be contaminated with filth. In my game I accepted the bottle, destroyed it and told her about it. Astarion swiftly killed Araj when she turned hostile but to my disappointment he had no comment about what happened. As an ascendant he says he wants to see her dead before entering her house and as spawn that he pities her. He should either be gloating over her corpse, or feel somewhat remorseful but also relieved depending on his identity.
7. Considering
Raphael's involvement in Astarion's storyline, him being a devil and Mephistopheles's son, there really needs to be a conversation where Raphael is in awe if we went through with ascension. Per his own words - the ritual was diabolical and so vile, no one'd ever done it before. It should be a big deal to him that it actually took place and he should also have some extra comments towards vampire lord Astarion if he's in the party. I imagine he might make some snide remarks about spawn Tav as well, after all he trashes them for romancing the Emperor. Maybe even give Tav a sick burn in response when stealing the hammer from him?
8. After ascending Astarion
and meeting the Gur, when Ulma asks us to side with her and kill Astarion, we should have a romance specific line saying something like 'I will not let you lay a finger on my lover; back away or die.'
9. Post ascension conversation when Astarion asks Tav how he can reward them should be a bit longer with Astarion using more persuasion techniques. Secondly, this scene could use some extra options.
In act 1 he mentions feeling Tav's shakes of excitement, right after ascension he can hear their heartbeat and them holding their breath - clearly he can read Tav's body language easily (plus the worm connects them) and he should say something similar here too, like he can tell they want it but they're too scared to follow their desires, sneer that they still choose to be naive (reference to early act 2 dialogue) when they can become more powerful and never have to worry about losing him and dying of old age. What's more, why can't we tell him we would like to go on a date with him? Spend some quality time together away from the rest of the group? We can only be thirsty for his body or his power, lecture him or be upset with him. Some more romantic and playful options would have been neat too. Of course, he would still spin the conversation so he can offer vampirism. An option to tease him if that is his idea of a marriage proposal would be funny. A serious one to be able to call him out on him manipulating Tav and pushing them to make a decision and demanding his sincerity is also welcome, where he'd reply similarly as he does post rejection where he mentions he was really trying with Tav and doing things the only way he knew how.
10. It's possible to finish the game
without turning into a spawn and still staying with ascended Astarion as a romance partner by jumping through hoops, but for the sake of extra options it would also be nice if we could tell him we wanted some time to decide when he offers to turn Tav the evening after ascension. He could at least give them one day to make up their mind, that's not too much to ask for. It would be nice as well to be able to discuss it with other companions to hear what they think about Astarion's proposal.
11. When Tav joins Astarion in immortality their look doesn't change whatsoever. We can use the magic mirror as a workaround to change Tav's eyes to red and make their skin lighter but they will still miss vampiric fangs.
12. Everyone should have something to say to Tav about them becoming a spawn, it's a drastic and permanent change for the character, same as DU choice. There is this one dialogue with Karlach about Astarion if we talk to her after the ritual. However, if we trigger it before becoming a spawn we miss out on her input about Tav.
13. It would have been cool if there was a new option for mortal Tav who rejected ascended Astarion's offer to have a change of heart before the end of the game, for example after dealing with the Chosen. It could be a scene during a long rest where Tav wakes up at night reminiscing and regretting how things turned out (Astarion does tell Tav they'd regret leaving him, let's see that actually happen!). The narrator could then ask distressed Tav if they wanted to approach Astarion about it or not. After selecting 'yes' a dialogue option would open up where Tav would be able to tell Astarion how they missed him and realised their mistake, how they didn't want to have a future without him, etc. I reckon he'd need some persuasion checks to forgive Tav but eventually he'd cave in. It would lead to the same romance scene but he would be a bit more pushy and even aggressive if Tav hesitated. For some extra angst, perhaps, similar to the outcome where he refuses to break up with Tav, and only if he was provoked sufficiently enough, he would actually attempt to turn Tav no matter what (he admits in a threatening manner he should have done it after the break up - I imagine in this scenario he would lose his restraint). Tav would then decide to give in or fight him. There could be a constitution or strength check where Astarion succeeds or fails and in case of failure he'd leave the party permanently. After succeeding, the morning afterwards there would be several options to initiate a dialogue, including a throwback to the time he kills Tav while drinking from them the first time with angry Tav wanting to punch him and complaining he killed them yet again.
14. It is not entirely clear who Tav is as a vampire. Astarion says they're his spawn, yet Tav can actually use the bite on him, which would turn them into a true vampire, according to Astarion's own testimony. Unless that only works when he consents to it with an actual intention of making Tav a true vampire? Moreover, I heard of theories that suggest that he actually turns Tav into a vampire bride by offering his blood during the transition. Although it is only a drop of blood, but maybe it's enough for the ascendant spawn? If Tav is a bride, he actually shouldn't be able to compel them, because even without the tadpole they would keep their free will, but of course he could still manipulate them into thinking he can and use physical force and magic to keep them nearby. Or maybe as ascendant he can still compel even a bride and a true vampire? Too many questions.
15. Spawn Tav never has the option to tell ascended Astarion they love him if they stay with him till the end. He still deserves love and kindness, right?
16. The last kiss that should count for something is ridiculous. It's the same chaste peck on the lips like all the other kisses Tav can share with him! It should be unique and memorable.
17. There is a scene where we can have a discussion about becoming
an illithid after accepting the worm from the Emperor.
However, Astarion has nothing to say to Tav after
freeing Orpheus and taking a moment to decide if they will sacrifice themselves. It's unbelievable if we blatantly refuse the Emperor right away but also quite bad if we did indeed have the previous debate. It is his last chance to convince them to remain his beautiful lover and he's silent? No way! He's never particularly fond of Tav playing a hero and he should be desperate to keep them away from tentacles at that point; with ascended being all 'Don't you even think about it! You are NOT doing this and turning into a slimy freak. I've given you immortality, just think of our glorious future together! Surely you wouldn't discard my love and my gift just like that? I don't care how many people have to die there or if I personally have to shove a worm inside someone's skull, you will NOT throw away everything we have and CAN have for some dumb heroics. I will NOT lose you to this.'; and spawn 'You MUST reconsider this. Think about what will happen to you, to us. We've come so far together, I don't want to lose you, I don't want you to lose yourself! You will no longer be YOU. Leave heroics out to someone else this time, alright? There has to be some desperate hero out there without a beautiful vampire lover by their side who can have this dubious honour in your stead'.
18. Romanced ascended Astarion as one of the allies in the final battle should have a unique response to Tav when offering his support, for example: 'My dark forces are at your disposal in the battles ahead, my love. Our foes don't stand a chance against our might.'
19. Ascended Astarion tries to persuade Tav to
control the brain so they can rule together
but it's actually not possible in the game and he will become
Tavzador's thrall for eternity. If the Chosen could rule together, why can't Tav/DU and him?
20. The 'good' spawn ending is depressing and disrespectful to Astarion.
He sacrificed himself for the dubious greater good, acting completely against his own nature and he's rewarded with lame comments from other companions and indifference from his lover, while he runs for his life and, as depicted in his origin ending, ends up completely alone, sulking behind some cargo in a fetal position. #JusticeforAstarion!
21. The ending conversation
with ascended Astarion is well written and his excited laugh at the end is a chef's kiss. One thing however that I found questionable is Astarion saying their enemies had fallen but then Tav has the option to say 'let's put our enemies to the sword'. Which enemies? Aren't they already dead? Meanwhile, spawn Astarion's interaction is just... sad. He is still very insecure about their relationship despite him and Tav already having decided they want to be committed to each other during the graveyard scene - the dialogue should reflect their previous declaration. After abandoning the ritual it's understandable he seems lost and unsure what to do next, but at the end of the game he should at least have some kind of idea of what he'd like their future to look like, yet he still has no plans and even suggestions and basically leaves everything up to Tav to decide if they stay together and what their next steps are. Despite him saying they are equals, it really doesn't look that way.
22. The 'good' ending conversation should generally be more intimate and engaging. It doesn't even look like they're truly celebrating their victory. They stand away from each other like strangers and are quite business like. Why won't ascendant hold Tav in his lap and spawn cuddle up with them on the bed with his arm around them, why don't they hold hands for a bit while they talk, touch each other's arms and faces? Actually act like people in love who are relieved they finally have a moment to themselves after all the hard work?
23. Spawn Tav/DU
who broke up with Astarion before the end of the game and is alive, not a squid, not involved with anyone else and not gone to other planes,I think should have an ending scene with him where he decides to reeducate them and remind them they made an eternal commitment and are still bound to him. He should offer them one last chance to get back with him, and if initially refused he should threaten them with confinement until they change their mind or simply say they'd have to stay with him regardless as his thrall and right hand and they can only choose to make their life more or less pleasant.
24. Mortal Tav/DU
who refused to be his spawn but accepted to be his partner in crime should also have a unique ending with him where they scheme together and Astarion would cheekily ask if they are still sure they don't want to mix business with pleasure and Tav can admit willingness to get back with him and even becoming his spawn immediately or eventually. This scene should also occur for illithid Tav, but play out similarly to the romanced spawn Tav who became an illithid with Astarion refusing to have any romantic connection with them.
25. Some epilogue cutscenes or slides would be great. For example,
ascendant redecorating the Szarr mansion with his consort (he hates the distasteful art and ugly carpets after all), throwing a party, sitting on a throne together, spawn burning the mansion down, Astarion and Tav leaving Baldur's Gate to travel the world, buried in books investigating how to make Astarion walk in the sun, settling in somewhere, etc.
26. When evil DU
prepares for the confrontation with Bhaal in the 'good ending' and Astarion can indeed compel them, he should notice something is off about them and use his powers in that moment to fight with Bhaal for control over DU's murderous instincts. DU should have a saving throw where they either submit to Bhaal or Astarion or stab themselves.
Originally Posted by onebadEVEning
I absolutely agree! Thank you for writing it all down.
I would just add one thing regarding the Halsin romance:
After we refused Halsin`s proposition (for players that donīt want a "polyromance" ) we could still talk about it with Astarion where he gives his consent at first, which Tav sees through via an insight check or reading his mind. If they succeed and they realise that Astarion is indeed lying about beeing ok with the whole Halsin thing, they could tell Astarion that he can talk about everything with them and he confesses that he agreed only because he was afraid to loose Tav. After their talk Astarion could hug Tav (we have far too few romantic interactions in my oppinion :)) and Tav could reasure him of their love and devotion to him.
It would fit with his story much better but if someone wants to pursue a relationship with both, they still can.
(There should be consequences after submitting to Mizoraīs advances...just saying)
And the old romance scene from before the patch should be reinstated, the new one lacks somehow the hotness from the old one!
I love love LOVE these suggestions. If these were added, I would have absolutely 0 complaints about the Astarion romance or story. I've found so many moment so lacking and disappointing and so many moments giving me things I didn't even know I wanted that it's just an up and down relationship with this game's romances! Astarion is so unique and likely my favorite fictional character at this point. My mind would explode if these were added.
The dryad's love test in Act 3: even if you take the test after freeing Astarion from Cazador, the answers are still the same. His greatest desire is vengeance on Cazador. This breaks immersion a lot for me. Would be nice to see some change in his responses. Ascended version might crave to rule the whole world with his consort, the non-ascended version might be more sincere, just 'want to live'.
Yes, the answers should definitely be different post-Cazador.
Originally Posted by onebadEVEning
I would just add one thing regarding the Halsin romance:
After we refused Halsin`s proposition (for players that donīt want a "polyromance" ) we could still talk about it with Astarion where he gives his consent at first, which Tav sees through via an insight check or reading his mind. If they succeed and they realise that Astarion is indeed lying about beeing ok with the whole Halsin thing, they could tell Astarion that he can talk about everything with them and he confesses that he agreed only because he was afraid to loose Tav. After their talk Astarion could hug Tav (we have far too few romantic interactions in my oppinion :)) and Tav could reasure him of their love and devotion to him.
It would fit with his story much better but if someone wants to pursue a relationship with both, they still can.
The insight check and a followup would be really nice, pre-Cazador it's clear he's only agreeing to it out of fear of losing Tav and not being confident to say no. Even romanced Shadowheart can step away from Tav at some point to let Astarion have them, saying he's fragile deep down and she can see he's not into sharing. He's not even fond of Halsin! He calls him annoying if he's obducted by certain someone, mocks him for being obsessed with nature, doesn't appreciate his comments about Tav and Astarion's relationship in party banter. His approval post-Cazador still feels forced, he speaks in a somewhat passive aggressive manner and it seems like he treats it as a reluctant reward for Tav for helping him out.
Originally Posted by onebadEVEning
And the old romance scene from before the patch should be reinstated, the new one lacks somehow the hotness from the old one!
Which scene? What was changed? I saw that they removed the last full body shot with Astarion's hips gyration (how could they?!) during the ascended romance scene.
Originally Posted by Juicebox1696
Here's what I'm thinking:
I would accept any way of of showing Astarion how he looks like, some of them are already in the game! For example, artisan Tav could just draw him. He could have additional dialogue after Act 3
where you can buy a statue of him
. In act 3 you could also ask specifically
for the painter to paint him
.
These are good suggestions too!
Originally Posted by Juicebox1696
I am specifically upset I cannot hug him first, then tell him I will wait for as long as he takes for him to be ready.
I wish I could use the tadpole first so he eases up and gets all warm and fuzzy and then be able to give him a hug.
Originally Posted by Juicebox1696
I would like instead an insight check option with an additional dialogue option along the lines of "I don't think this was a good idea after all, you are not okay, should we stop?". Checking in during the act and stopping it is a great option to allow Astarion the space to explore while being conscious of his trauma responses.
Yes! You could then decide to stop, continue without Astarion or say nothing and keep going but want to have a chat afterwards. The next conversation would be about the outcome of that encounter.
Originally Posted by Juicebox1696
Yup, latest patch added some new and cute, unique animations for companion kisses in general I think - but not for all of them. They should all get a unique one to add variety.
I love that Astarion approaches Tav now, makes it look like he's more into it (although it makes the end of the world kiss less unique). Sadly, it's still that lame peck. And when you compare it to that new Karlach and Halsin kiss... oofffff it feels bad. The kiss is also a bit broken now, the spoken dialogue doesn't always match up with ingame text, Astarion sometimes makes weird faces and says nothing. His lines still cut off mid sentence. I also saw two new written lines when asked for a kiss where he supposedly says something like 'you don't need to ask but it's nice that you do' and a super "romantic" 'if you must' lol.
Originally Posted by Juicebox1696
Ad 17. Yes and the lines you wrote out are ridiculously in character for him
Thanks!
Originally Posted by Juicebox1696
Additionally, spawn Astarion storyline could again be tidied up by fleshing out something ALREADY in the game
the creepy necromancy book combined with the creepier necromancy book you find in act 3. Together, if read, they should provide at least a recipe to craft a sun immunity ring/cape/diadem - whatever. Or a spell to bring him back from the undeath.
.
It really feels like there was some cut content related to the necromancy book. I wish there was also an option to allow him to read the book after Tav does it to not miss out on extra dialogues with him. If Tav reads it themselves, they should be able to share more information about the rite of profane ascension as well.
Originally Posted by Juicebox1696
Ad 25. Ending slides or scenes would be great. (...) Alternatively a DLC
like the Citadel for Mass Effect.
I would love a small celebration before going to the point of no return and a reunion party DLC.
I was also wishing for romance specific lines during combat and apparently they DO exist but they never triggered in my game! He only kept shouting 'get up gods damn you' when my Tav was downed I feel so salty after watching this:
And now I wonder how to trigger the start conversation because it's impossible to target Tav when selecting to interact with them as Astarion. I performed a test after patch 4 and he also has generic shouts when casting heals as a cleric and bard, no romantic tones. Does it only work during Astarion origin playthrough? Also, that 'maybe they like being restrained?' and 'you look good helpless' coupled with Loviatar's priest scene (especially the 'I had my hopes' line when talking to Shadowheart) and DU tying up remark. He obviously wants to get kinky with Tav but somehow only gets confident enough to do it as ascendant. Could we get an extra scene related to that in act 2 or 3 perhaps? :3
And the old romance scene from before the patch should be reinstated, the new one lacks somehow the hotness from the old one!
Which scene? What was changed? I saw that they removed the last full body shot with Astarion's hips gyration (how could they?!) during the ascended romance scene.
So... we can have Minthara doing everything she does in her "romance" scene, but we can't have Astarion move his hips a little?
Yeah, same as Karlach explicitly enjoying her 'hot date' from multiple angles. And honestly, I always wondered, why is he suddenly half-dressed shortly after leaving the bed, while Tav remains naked? I think it would be more in character for him to stand there fully exposed enjoying the effect he has on Tav and to make them more willing to submit to him. Plus, it's not like the game doesn't allow you to remove his underwear and see what's underneath. You can even have his naked statue in your camp now! Unless the scene is meant to hammer in that he's the one wearing pants in the relationship from now on. xD
Yeah, same as Karlach explicitly enjoying her 'hot date' from multiple angles. And honestly, I always wondered, why is he suddenly half-dressed shortly after leaving the bed, while Tav remains naked? I think it would be more in character for him to stand there fully exposed enjoying the effect he has on Tav and to make them more willing to submit to him. Plus, it's not like the game doesn't allow you to remove his underwear and see what's underneath. You can even have his naked statue in your camp now! Unless the scene is meant to hammer in that he's the one wearing pants in the relationship from now on. xD
Yes, sometimes they treat his character as if they donīt like him at all. Mintahara gets new romance lines apparently, since the actress was called and Iīm not even talking about her "romance scene" from every angle. And now they take even the last hot scene with him away from us. I donīt understand it. His charater could be so much better with just a few adjusments, but I doubt they will do it. It makes me so sad.
Originally Posted by Ametris
The insight check and a followup would be really nice, pre-Cazador it's clear he's only agreeing to it out of fear of losing Tav and not being confident to say no. Even romanced Shadowheart can step away from Tav at some point to let Astarion have them, saying he's fragile deep down and she can see he's not into sharing. He's not even fond of Halsin! He calls him annoying if he's obducted by certain someone, mocks him for being obsessed with nature, doesn't appreciate his comments about Tav and Astarion's relationship in party banter. His approval post-Cazador still feels forced, he speaks in a somewhat passive aggressive manner and it seems like he treats it as a reluctant reward for Tav for helping him out.
Thatīs what bothers me the most if Iīm honest. He agrees oviously only because he doesnīt want to lose Tav but we as players canīt do or say anyting to help him or reassure him that he is the only one for us. We definitely should get an opportunity to react to it and help him if we want to.
I was also wishing for romance specific lines during combat and apparently they DO exist but they never triggered in my game! He only kept shouting 'get up gods damn you' when my Tav was downed I feel so salty after watching this:
And now I wonder how to trigger the start conversation because it's impossible to target Tav when selecting to interact with them as Astarion. I performed a test after patch 4 and he also has generic shouts when casting heals as a cleric and bard, no romantic tones. Does it only work during Astarion origin playthrough? Also, that 'maybe they like being restrained?' and 'you look good helpless' coupled with Loviatar's priest scene (especially the 'I had my hopes' line when talking to Shadowheart) and DU tying up remark. He obviously wants to get kinky with Tav but somehow only gets confident enough to do it as ascendant. Could we get an extra scene related to that in act 2 or 3 perhaps? :3
They are such cute lines, but I believe itīs only for the origin playtrough as Astarion, sadly, or they didnīt trigger correctly in my playthrougs.
And there should be a proper kiss available not just a peck. I cannot shake the feeling that they donīt like his character very much, as I mentioned before, since every other companion gets improved, getīs better romance scenes or better lines or just better kisses...maybe Iīm just overthinking this lol, but I cannot shake the impression, since after every patch it only getīs worse for him.
And the old romance scene from before the patch should be reinstated, the new one lacks somehow the hotness from the old one!
Which scene? What was changed? I saw that they removed the last full body shot with Astarion's hips gyration (how could they?!) during the ascended romance scene.
So... we can have Minthara doing everything she does in her "romance" scene, but we can't have Astarion move his hips a little?
Itīs so frustrating! Now not even the peck works correctly anymore. I love this character so much and it pains me to see it somehow.
And the old romance scene from before the patch should be reinstated, the new one lacks somehow the hotness from the old one!
Which scene? What was changed? I saw that they removed the last full body shot with Astarion's hips gyration (how could they?!) during the ascended romance scene.
So... we can have Minthara doing everything she does in her "romance" scene, but we can't have Astarion move his hips a little?
Wait, they really censored Astarion's Ascended romance scene? All of this romance scenes are so vanilla to start with, why would they do that? Ascended romance was always so much more steamy; it felt so appropriate given who he is now.
This upsets me...like, it's a literal millisecond so it shouldn't matter that much but, I already thought we could use more explicit detail for Astarion anyway, at least his first scene and Ascended (don't touch the graveyard scene, the sweetness makes complete sense) but now they've made it even more PG?
*sigh* I hope it's just a bug. That's disappointing.
Yes, sometimes they treat his character as if they donīt like him at all. Mintahara gets new romance lines apparently, since the actress was called and Iīm not even talking about her "romance scene" from every angle. And now they take even the last hot scene with him away from us. I donīt understand it. His charater could be so much better with just a few adjusments, but I doubt they will do it. It makes me so sad.
Astarion was the most hyped companion during early access, heck they even made a special video with him (Only Fangs) for April Fool's Day. He's also the most prominent character in the launch party animatic. They showed the statistic with 100K people getting rejected by him during their gameplay as well. Right after the game's release he got pushed to the side and major patches break his romance. Sad times.
Well...he turned out to be a power crazed morally reprehensible piece of work - it's almost like light switch was flipped, and then he was an absolutely evil degenerate. All that was missing wa sthe crazed laughter *aha!hahahahahah!* (he did a bit of that too)
In my1st playthrough I convinced him to not ascend - but otherwise treated him much the same, did the Thayan codex stuff etc -> fine, decent chap (for a vampire) I thought....
In my second (just concluded) playhrough, I essentially did the same, but encouraged him to Ascend...yes, I know he had to sacrifice all these turned vampires, but it was for the 'greater good'; i.e. him being more powerful could help saving *all* Faerun (and possibly this plane of existence) ...so possible morally defensible. But wow. Any qualms he had about treating people decently from that point went out the window *despite* his history of monstrous abuse. He seemed quite willing to perpetrate the same on thousands of others...That doesn't gel. All that careful digging through his past - and sympathy etc - but he shows that ultimately he's like his much maligned masters. In that case, I should have had the option to end his existence at the end (realizing what I had unleashed)...Also, the powers he acquired were...*massively* underwhelming for all the talk about this near omnipotent ascended vampire.
That's what happens to someone who becomes a true vampire in dnd. The game tells you that in Act 1. There is a reason why ascending is the "bad" ending for Astarion's personal quest. Doesn't matter what kind of person he was before.
And I would also love him to be as OP as expected, but that would break the gameplay.
That's what happens to someone who becomes a true vampire in dnd. The game tells you that in Act 1. There is a reason why ascending is the "bad" ending for Astarion's personal quest. Doesn't matter what kind of person he was before.
And I would also love him to be as OP as expected, but that would break the gameplay.
Is it morally questionable to choose his ascended quest line? Yes, without a doubt.
Am I going to choose it every damn time? You had better believe it! ??
(...) it's almost like light switch was flipped, and then he was an absolutely evil degenerate.
It's understandable for him to be overjoyed when all of his plans succeed and he manages to execute his perfect revenge. He waited 200 years to get it. Plus, he feels an intense rush of power from the ritual - he's practically high then. Just because he talks about wanting to do some things, doesn't mean he will follow through, he's always free to change his mind. He does relax later though and Tav can even sway him in some ways at the end.To be honest, there were multiple instances throughout the game where the darker side of him was emerging. I think he was keeping it supressed so as to not alarm Tav, while fishing for their reactions to see if they were similar to him. That conversation where he mentions Tav is naive to the ways of the world but they have potential and tries to find out if they'd be up for some world domination is very telling. To me, as ascendant he simply unleashes his shadows when he sees that Tav is willing to do anything for him, believing they will condone this side of him and join him as his kindred soul.
But if someone sees him as a danger to the society that needs to be eliminated after the final battle, they should also have that option ingame.
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
That's what happens to someone who becomes a true vampire in dnd. The game tells you that in Act 1. There is a reason why ascending is the "bad" ending for Astarion's personal quest. Doesn't matter what kind of person he was before.
True, but since he's ascended these rules may not necessarily apply to him. He's a whole new being. I really wish Larian expanded on it and fleshed him out more post-ascension.
Regarding him getting less updates than other companions, I kind of get it from the standpoint that:
1. Arguably he was the least broken romance on release. We can be suggesting all the improvements above but as we kind of agreed to begin with, he already has a great romance. Meanwhile, we still cannot kiss Minthara, she says she will come to us at night but never does and Gale went from harassing us to giving us the "we are not that close" treatment betweeen patches. He is not a priority right now, but I am sure things that need fixing will be fixed.
2. Someone did a summary of the time each companion has in dialogue/personal quests and Astarion's story is iirc 1.5x longer than Wyll's. We have to remember that this is *technically* not an Astarion dating sim and it is at this point more important to improve/add stuff to other companions to improve the game as a whole.
And regarding him becoming a monster post ascending - that is the whole point. Disregarding dnd lore and how true vampires should behave - if we only look at psychology... It is a real thing that abused people can either heal and break the cycle, or refuse to heal and be doomed to repeat it. In ascending him, you are confirming his core fear - that he is not enough just as he is, that he needs to become more powerful to earn respect. He does not even know how to be a better vampire ascendant, because the behaviour blueprint he has is shit. Meanwhile, if you convince him not to ascend, you are showing him he is worthy of love just as he is, he does not need to become an improved version because this version is what you love.
You also get multiple warnings and foreshadowing that this is who he will become after you do it. I'm fine to leave his ascended story as is - although for you feral ascended fans, I do hope they fix the camera . If Minthara's scene is as explicit as you guys say, then I see no reason why we have fade to black in almost every other romance. Maybe it should be a toggleable option? Like showing full nudity is?
Regarding him getting less updates than other companions, I kind of get it from the standpoint that:
1. Arguably he was the least broken romance on release. We can be suggesting all the improvements above but as we kind of agreed to begin with, he already has a great romance. Meanwhile, we still cannot kiss Minthara, she says she will come to us at night but never does and Gale went from harassing us to giving us the "we are not that close" treatment betweeen patches. He is not a priority right now, but I am sure things that need fixing will be fixed.
2. Someone did a summary of the time each companion has in dialogue/personal quests and Astarion's story is iirc 1.5x longer than Wyll's. We have to remember that this is *technically* not an Astarion dating sim and it is at this point more important to improve/add stuff to other companions to improve the game as a whole.
And regarding him becoming a monster post ascending - that is the whole point. Disregarding dnd lore and how true vampires should behave - if we only look at psychology... It is a real thing that abused people can either heal and break the cycle, or refuse to heal and be doomed to repeat it. In ascending him, you are confirming his core fear - that he is not enough just as he is, that he needs to become more powerful to earn respect. He does not even know how to be a better vampire ascendant, because the behaviour blueprint he has is shit. Meanwhile, if you convince him not to ascend, you are showing him he is worthy of love just as he is, he does not need to become an improved version because this version is what you love.
You also get multiple warnings and foreshadowing that this is who he will become after you do it. I'm fine to leave his ascended story as is - although for you feral ascended fans, I do hope they fix the camera . If Minthara's scene is as explicit as you guys say, then I see no reason why we have fade to black in almost every other romance. Maybe it should be a toggleable option? Like showing full nudity is?
+1 on all this, except everyone's story is longer than Wyll's and I don't think he got anything new this patch either. Apart from some bugs.
I once saw someone describe Minthara's scene as softcore porn and honestly that's accurate. None of the male companions come even close (though I haven't seen Halsin's). So it's interesting that they felt the need to censor ascended Astarion.
I once saw someone describe Minthara's scene as softcore porn and honestly that's accurate. None of the male companions come even close (though I haven't seen Halsin's). So it's interesting that they felt the need to censor ascended Astarion.
See I have not seen Minthara's scene bc I got her as companion through "good playthrough recruitment mod". But I just did Halsin's yesterday
Basically you get full nudity on both him and Tav, he then goes down on Tav but camera zooms to Tav's face, you get some moans from Tav, then they lie down on the moss and kiss. And then camera goes towards the sky and fades to black. Oh and the patch 4 Halsin kiss is taken from this intimacy scene.
So it is more spicy than Astarion's forest scene, but definitely less spicy than ascended Astarion's.
In ascending him, you are confirming his core fear - that he is not enough just as he is, that he needs to become more powerful to earn respect. He does not even know how to be a better vampire ascendant, because the behaviour blueprint he has is shit. Meanwhile, if you convince him not to ascend, you are showing him he is worthy of love just as he is, he does not need to become an improved version because this version is what you love.
I find it fascinating and awesome how differently and in so many ways Astarion can be interpreted!
To me it was giving him everything he wanted and allowing him the freedom to choose for himself and be responsible for his own actions - even if he may regret it later (which he clearly doesn't). I did the same for all companions - stayed silent or gave neutral responses telling them they could do what they wanted with their life. Everyone's life is their own business after all. The fact that Astarion has to be persuaded out of the ritual (unlike Shadowheart and Lae'zel for example when making decisions during their own storylines) means that he never changes his worldview and desires because of game events and Tav's influence, and in this case Tav is telling him what to do, which I don't feel they have the right to do. He's suffered for centuries, wanted to live his life on his own terms and achieve his vampiric dreams and then Tav shows up, they spend a couple of weeks together and suddenly they know what's best for him? He should totally focus on his own needs, live a full life and not self-sacrifice for a relationship that may or may not even end soon. Personally, I don't see versions of him, I see him as a whole and full package - both dark and light. We call him spawn and ascendant for reference but in essence he's still the same guy, just someone who made different choices. Persuading him feels like Tav asking him to be a good hero because they want him to behave in a certain way (he doesn't want that and straight up tells Tav he can't be what they want to see in him and that he's not a fairytale prince). The game even shows several examples how "well" and "sweet" self-sacrificing and doing the 'right thing' often ends up on a personal level in the end:
Wyll becomes a devil and may end up bound to Mizora forever, Karlach becomes a squid and loses her soul becoming an imitation of herself, Shadowheart loses her parents before she can enjoy a life with them, and of course the dreadful, hated scene that should totally be changed where Astarion ends up burning in the sun while his so-called friends mock him when he runs away.
On another note, since the companions are getting their own unique kisses, I'd like to see Astarion get the same treatment and even have two variants after dealing with Cazador - one for ascendant and one for spawn. We deserve it after how dirty patch 4 did him.
The thing is, he does not want to be an ascended powerful vampire lord! Multiple dialogue bits here and there show you this. What he wants is to be safe and so that no one can hurt him again. He is convinced the only way to do that is through ascending. If you persuade him to not do that, he later thanks you and confirms that he was close to losing himself completely. Moreover, you can tell the spawn Astarion "don't worry, I will keep you safe" and he will be like "I appreciate the sentiment, it would have been nice to be able to protect myself but oh well". Ultimately he has no regrets about not ascending, more than that, he expresses that he prefers that outcome to the alternative. And if you still want to make him a vampire leader, there is still one way to do that!
See sometimes traumatised people think they want something, but what they need is a completely different story. You can support their rights and wrongs (lol) or you can be the reason they do a little bit of thinking before diving off the edge.
He wants it all, & I want it all. Please make his romance better. The kisses as of patch 4, not even a traumatized vampire would be this middle school. Plus this is an 18+ game, please give us better & more mature sex scenes, hugs, kisses, the whole thing (I like the toggle option idea because even as a woman, I do not mind a more graphic sex scene. I am not a flowers and chocolates type of woman.). Astarion says he wants it all. Either way, the story goes, make it worthy of him, because there are a lot of us out there that were drawn to him to begin with. I +1 a lot of the suggestions, but patch 4 has about killed my desire for the game because I want to know this particular character and he is the reason I play the game. Not only for the fun DnD gameplay but for the friendship, romance, the whole Astarion play-through that you drew us in with. Please fix this obvious error and/or bug.
He is also a new being that has not existed before, so we don't know if our Tav is a bride or a spawn due to her drinking his blood, able to walk in the sun after becoming his consort since even Astarion doesn't know. But the changes to our Tav's teeth are a must, no question. Not sure if her heart is still beating like Astarion's though, that is something that needs to be clarified with a newly created creature that technically doesn't exist in the DnD lore.
As far as the trauma, some of us see him as always traumatized. Some of us think they need to tell him what to do. Take a step back and look at him as a whole person and each person never sits perfectly in a box of psychology or how a person acts towards the original trauma. If he made his own decisions, he would live with the consequences. It is your choice if you want to go on with him to discover what the rest of his life looks like, ascended or not. It is your choice if you want to be there with him, for all the world or not. Don't get judgy when someone likes one version over the other, please. Personally, I would stick with him either way. That is my choice.
Ultimately, Larian...............please fix our boy & the much-needed additions to his story to flush it out more completely instead of laughing at him burning when we are supposedly in love with him at this point, leave Karlach with the other friends and make sure he is ok. Expand and improve. Give us it all, please. Respectfully.
Last edited by DarkAngelBeckons; 07/11/2312:35 PM. Reason: spelling error, oops
He wants it all, & I want it all. Please make his romance better. The kisses as of patch 4, not even a traumatized vampire would be this middle school. Plus this is an 18+ game, please give us better & more mature sex scenes, hugs, kisses, the whole thing (I like the toggle option idea because even as a woman, I do not mind a more graphic sex scene. I am not a flowers and chocolates type of woman.). Astarion says he wants it all. Either way, the story goes, make it worthy of him, because there are a lot of us out there that were drawn to him to begin with. I +1 a lot of the suggestions, but patch 4 has about killed my desire for the game because I want to know this particular character and he is the reason I play the game. Not only for the fun DnD gameplay but for the friendship, romance, the whole Astarion play-through that you drew us in with. Please fix this obvious error and/or bug.
He is also a new being that has not existed before, so we don't know if our Tav is a bride or a spawn due to her drinking his blood, able to walk in the sun after becoming his consort since even Astarion doesn't know. But the changes to our Tav's teeth are a must, no question. Not sure if her heart is still beating like Astarion's though, that is something that needs to be clarified with a newly created creature that technically doesn't exist in the DnD lore.
As far as the trauma, some of us see him as always traumatized. Some of us think they need to tell him what to do. Take a step back and look at him as a whole person and each person never sits perfectly in a box of psychology or how a person acts towards the original trauma. If he made his own decisions, he would live with the consequences. It is your choice if you want to go on with him to discover what the rest of his life looks like, ascended or not. It is your choice if you want to be there with him, for all the world or not. Don't get judgy when someone likes one version over the other, please. Personally, I would stick with him either way. That is my choice.
Ultimately, Larian...............please fix our boy & the much-needed additions to his story to flush it out more completely instead of laughing at him burning when we are supposedly in love with him at this point, leave Karlach with the other friends and make sure he is ok. Expand and improve. Give us it all, please. Respectfully.
In general, I agree with your post, it's a good suggestion. But I would like to clarify something.
We have a quest with an artist or the opportunity to order a statue. It would be much more logical. It's enough for them to add Astarion's reaction to this quest.
Astarion, judging by his phrases, loves drow and is not afraid of them. But I would like more answers with the drow tag for Astarion, because he is an elf.
I would generally like to see the opportunity to play as monogamy character... Give me phrases where I can say that my partner is important to me.
You can get a confession scene without a blood dealer and it actually looks more natural. The problem is that it starts not from relationships, but from the course of history.
A big plus to gossip about relationships. In general, I would like the companions to communicate with each other more often.
We need more information about the ritual. I don't care if it's a piece of paper or something, at least something. Raphael's words are not enough for me. You introduce such a serious thing into the game and there is almost no information about it.
I want you to notice that after Ascension, all the player's dialogues are negative or stupid. The dialogue after Ascension should be reworked, especially the answer to the question "what do you want". I should be able to answer "nothing" or "to make you happy" or "to be with you." I find the options "your body" or "being a vampire" strange. The other two options are negative and aggressive.
You can also breakup with Ascended Astarion in this dialogue and the next scene in four different ways. Do you know what I want? So that you can breakup with spawn. You can't leave the graveyard scene. You can't say to Astarion, "No, I'm not going anywhere with you." It's not fair. Why can't I say no to him? I literally can't give up the graveyard scene. it's very strange.
You see how the writers treat your character. If you have made Astarion a spawn, then you cannot respond to him as an evil character. If you have a relationship with Ascended Astarion, then you do not have a neutral reaction to his behavior. It's as if you're a disgruntled kind character again, or a stupid evil character who doesn't care about Astarion.
His scenes after the ritual are devoid of rolleplay.
That's what happens to someone who becomes a true vampire in dnd. The game tells you that in Act 1. There is a reason why ascending is the "bad" ending for Astarion's personal quest. Doesn't matter what kind of person he was before.
And I would also love him to be as OP as expected, but that would break the gameplay.
Oh no... you mean "evil" not "bad". He gets everything he aspired to as a corrupt magistrate. You reminded me of something else. Please bring back the damn corrupt magistrate. Bring back his past at least with documents or newspapers. Don't build his whole story around the fact that he's just a victim of Cazador. Early Access players know who he was.
I mean both evil and bad. He's not a corrupt magistrate in full release and it's not how he wants to end up.
Have you not passed Ansur quest and not played Astarion's origin? He's still a corrupt magistrate. But without the upper city, we can't get information about it. The magistrate cannot live in the lower city. He wanted power from the very beginning and that's why he got involved with vampires. So getting power is literally his main goal. If you want to think about freedom, then look at Karlach. She is the best example of freedom and she never say that we need to capture a cult or manipulate people with tadpoles.
Oh nice, it's Nyloth! I love your vids and shorts with ascended Astarion!
Originally Posted by Nyloth
Astarion, judging by his phrases, loves drow and is not afraid of them. But I would like more answers with the drow tag for Astarion, because he is an elf.
That's great, because I was worried he might have something against female drow. The only time I remember him mention the race was when I was looking through alternative options when talking about saving my drow buddy Nere. There were definitely not enough tags.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I want you to notice that after Ascension, all the player's dialogues are negative or stupid. The dialogue after Ascension should be reworked, especially the answer to the question "what do you want". I should be able to answer "nothing" or "to make you happy" or "to be with you." I find the options "your body" or "being a vampire" strange. The other two options are negative and aggressive. (...) If you have a relationship with Ascended Astarion, then you do not have a neutral reaction to his behavior. It's as if you're a disgruntled kind character again, or a stupid evil character who doesn't care about Astarion.
Exactly! I mentioned that in the OP. Honestly, it feels like the game is judging me by assuming I ascended him only for his powers and to have reward sex. The only alternative is telling him you're basicly disappointed in him. It took me a lot of time reloading to check the dialogues and staring at the screen not knowing what to do because I didn't want to pick any of the options. Eventually, I settled for 'I hoped you learned to love me' to make the exchange have a tiny semblance of romanticism.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
You can also breakup with Ascended Astarion in this dialogue and the next scene in four different ways. Do you know what I want? So that you can breakup with spawn. You can't leave the graveyard scene. You can't say to Astarion, "No, I'm not going anywhere with you." It's not fair. Why can't I say no to him? I literally can't give up the graveyard scene. it's very strange.
That's a very good point! You can roleplay your character to be terrified of ascended Astarion's attitude and be disgusted with him but can't for example roleplay losing interest in spawn Astarion because suddenly he's too soft and human for their liking and they wanted an edgy, seductive vampire, being a pragmatist who only helped him so Cazador's lackeys never stalk your group again, or persuaded him out of ascension because they didn't want to have a potential powerful enemy if things turned sour, or an obsessive vampire lord lover harassing them Imhotep from "The Mummy" style breaking into their room at night trying to turn them into his spawn, etc.
Originally Posted by DarkAngelBeckons
He wants it all, & I want it all. Please make his romance better. The kisses as of patch 4, not even a traumatized vampire would be this middle school. Plus this is an 18+ game, please give us better & more mature sex scenes, hugs, kisses, the whole thing (I like the toggle option idea because even as a woman, I do not mind a more graphic sex scene. I am not a flowers and chocolates type of woman.). Astarion says he wants it all. Either way, the story goes, make it worthy of him, because there are a lot of us out there that were drawn to him to begin with.
Wholeheartedly agree! I would like to see more content and improvements for both paths.
So I have been mulling over my reply to these suggestions, while I agree about most points you made Ametris, there are some I don't so I will break it down.
Act 1
1. I don't think Tav is at this point with Astarion yet (what approval this convo appears on again? Medium?) where Tav would just let Astarion see him through Tav's eyes, but painting a picture or that entire mirror image suggestion of yours, yeah definitely(speaking of, if Astarion becomes an arcane trickster he should have access to mirror image so I guess it's an oversight by the devs lol). Also, I think there is that whole romantic aspect of the mirror convo!
2. That line has been changed ages ago already. In patch 2 or 3 iirc.
3. Yep, agreed.
4. Yes and no. I also played as a drow on my 1st run (and imagine my surprise that after meeting Araj, Astarion was talking about "that vile drow" in front of another drow, got a chuckle out of me - the irony of it all). But yes, I agree, having race unique interactions with him would be cool (like tieflings can first of all recognize the language his scars were written in without a skill check - rest need to pass an arcana to know it's written in infernal, but also when he's trying to read them later, they can just straight up translate them) but also, too much work for Larian and other romances would also need such race specific lines. Also, no because the way WotC has been going on lately, about nullifying racial uniqueness and making everyone pretty much the same... which yeah, it's kinda sad that they basically treat races as make-up lately.
Act 2
1. During early access Tav could sleep with Gale right after the tiefling party, or AFTER AFTER the party if Tav flirted with Gale at all. The cutscene you are referring to was moved to act 2 and completely rewritten, so it doesn't account for any active romances anymore (but I agree, it should). Also, let's not forget that in EA Gale could sleep with Tav, and then morning after tell Tav that he also banged Mystra and still has some unresolved feelings towards her. Obviously Tav would feel deeply betrayed by him not mentioning it earlier and because of it you could break the romance then and there. A lot of people were unhappy with this gaslighting behavior of Gale's so yeah, it's been completely rewritten and we know much much earlier that he banged Mystra so we know what kind of situation we're walking into if we pursue Gale. Just a little tidbit.
2. Yes and no. I mean, what kind of route people have to take to kill ratman before meeting Yurgir, I mean, sure on my latest run I almost ran into the ratman before meeting Yurgir cause I was curious if that was even possible. Imho, what Larian should do to prevent people from doing that is make the displacer beast's spawn points depending on player's approach, rather than having her appear in only 1 spot. So meeting Yurgir would be harder to miss.
3. & 4. Thing is, there are 2 confession scenes. One was the 'Do you have a moment?' (the 'I want us to be something real') and the 'I want to thank you' (the Araj Oblodra one). The 1st one used to be really easy to trigger, all you needed to do was to reach Moonrise Towers (didn't even need to talk to Ketheric), have at least very high approval with him (again, easy at this point, even if playing an uber goody-two-shoes, heck it's super easy to be max 100 exceptional at this point in game) and rest and it would happen. Then some genius at Larian decided to move that scene (I guess due to the thing where you could get into relationship with him super easy and then get Astarion to suck Araj for the +2 str potion totally consequence free) to killing Yurgir for Raphael (what I am not sure about is - if you kill the ratman, Yurgir goes free if that would still trigger that scene or not, I am betting not) which yeah, is easy to accomplish but at the same time you will only trigger it at the end of act 2, what kind of sucks. Also, you still need very high + approval with Astarion in this case anyway, but like I wrote - approval isn't a problem at all. By the end of act 2 generally everyone but Halsin are sitting at exceptional approval anyway.
The way I would fix it is: make it so 'I want us to be something real' conversation just needs very high or exceptional approval, make it so it doesn't require us to visit Moonrise Towers either (so we could get it much earlier in the act, even before Wyll's stupid dance, so that would cut Wyll trying to woo us with that ballet thing), and make it so our decision with Araj has way higher impact. Make it so if you let him suck her blood, he breaks up with us with absolutely no way to talk ourselves out of that. And if we don't let him suck her, make it so he's still thankful, dunno, let us hug him again or something. No more stupidity.
5. True and agree. Everyone needs more hugs honestly. Like friendly hugs too!
6. That is already in the game but is not triggering. Companions do comment (in banters) on our slowly blossoming relationship with Astarion, there are banters for all acts as well but currently they're not triggering at all. All Larian has to do is flip a switch and make it so they trigger finally.
Act 3
1. Sure, but you have to remember that if it's done for Astarion, it has to be done for all other romances as well. And THAT would be a lot of extra work for Larian.
2. Agreed. I wish there was a way indeed to talk to Astarion to hear his opinion without that also meaning that we can't say no to Halsin if Astarion agrees lol.
3. Yeah, I guess if people want them both that would be a way to do it.
4. True, agreed.
5. Yep, as much as I think House of Hope is masterfully written, I do hate that nobody has any reaction to sleeping with Haarlep right in front of their eyes. Like everyone seems to give 0 fucks (just like Durge's death scene), and all they do is disapprove at best. I think that entire scene should be remain, but be completely rewritten, give all companions, not only romances, some goddamn reactions to what is about to unfold. Make romances furiously plead with Tav to reconsider, anything really.
6. Eh, no. The fact that we're meeting her again is enough.
7. No, Raphael played his role. At best maybe have him comment on present companions when we're exiting HoH, and maybe have him comment on Astarion's current state (ascendant or spawn, and if Tav is a vampire spawn, have him make a comment on that as well), but then have him make such comments on all companions' states (so like Sharran vs Selunite SH, etc etc).
8. Agreed.
9. Agreed on both counts again, but that also applies to all other romances, all romances imho should have a date, not only Karlach. Especially spawn Astarion who's lacking content compared to ascended lol.
10. Wait, really? How? What hoops are those. But yeah, having some time to decide would be nice. But then again, it would be hard to implement with the way this game is structured.
11. True, a vampire spawn with no fangs is no fun.
12. True, but all of them kind of do (in that vid I linked earlier). Cowards just have no courage to tell it to your face lol.
13. While on paper that sounds like a wonderful idea, it just would require too much work to implement. Also, I hear that there is a special cutscene for Tavs who rejected Astarion's immortality offer right after the docks, where he comes to you and kind of wants you back. I dunno how true it is, since I never went that route. Might test it one day.
14. Umm, I think that entire vampire bride is just people grasping at straws and headcanoning stuff. And sure, as spawn you could bite him and it is tragic he has absolutely no reaction lol. But I think that Tav is just his spawn, nothing special or elaborate.
15. Sure, but the problem is that both Astarion (and Tav if spawn) change. Like entirely change, so what they feel towards each other is more akin to extreme possessiveness and not pure (innocent) love. Heck, when Astarion tries to convince Tav and says he loves them he does so in a very mocking manner. So not having the option to tell him you love him is actually pretty true to vampire lore in D&D. Altho, I guess vamp spawns, especially as fresh as Tav still retain some feelings in them (Astarion was 200 years a spawn and he could still feel love, so why not Tav?).
16. Yep, even after patch 4 the kiss is the most chaste peck I have ever seen. Generally I think there should be different kissing animations for all companions and dependent on their story progression. So 3 different kissing animations for Astarion. Pre-Cazador we can have that dumb peck. Post ritual: something really spicy for ascendant and something grabby and sweet for spawn.
17. The entire Emperor/Orpheus ending sequence needs massive rework and appropriate reactions from all companions between the cutscenes. That entire section is a mess narratively.
18. I guess? Again, so much work for Larian for such a small change. Quite odd they didn't actually think of it tbh (just proves that act 3 was rushed to hell).
19. True, it's pretty funny and clearly an oversight by Larian (rushed act 3 and rushed endings tsk tsk tsk).
20. & 21. & 22. There is already a lengthy topic about spawn Astarion & the docks scene out there.
The enemies Tav might be referring to might be our companions, I have seen what the endings look like if you played as Astarion - and he can actually decide to declare our companions his enemies and wish to either convert them into vampires or murder 'em. Or, y'know, clerics or Lathander. Or us vs the world. Plenty of enemies to be found.
But yeah, about the spawn Astarion I complained pretty much relentlessly. It's just so damn out of character for him to be so damn insecure out of nowhere. Not to mention after the graveyard scene, he really thinks we'd leave him? Sure, ascended is the only one you can't leave in the ending sequence, so I guess Larian wanted to give us a chance to just drop him like a sack of potatoes (can be done to pretty much all romances from what I've seen on youtube, even Wyll who proposes to you much earlier in act 3 trololol). But what I find extra tragic is if you compare spawn Astarion with a normal Tav/Durge vs mind flayer one. In MF version he suddenly remembered he loved us. Hmmmm. I will use his own words from the party scene: "I hate it!".
23. & 24. & 25. You really really love ascendant Astarion, don't you? But yeah, agree with all these points.
26. Hard disagree. Astarion is never going to be stronger than an actual deity, even if a quasi deity (after 2nd sundering that's what the Dead 3 have been reduced into: quasi deities). Sure Astarion could notice something is off, but in best case he'd be laughed at by Bhaal, in worst case he'd end up dying for interfering.
Now to add my own thoughts and ideas, since yeah, this topic covers a lot of my own thoughts on potential improvements to Astarion's romance as it is.
What I would add is: add different dialogues for when we ask him 'What are we , to you?'. Pre-Cazador and spawn Astarion have only 1 answer to that. Ascended has like 5 different replies. That needs to be changed, sure I'd add an extra confused reaction to that question to pre-Cazador Astarion and at least 2 extra to spawn (to at least bring it a little closer to ascendant's reactivity).
Spawn Tav should be able to offer Araj to suck her blood for that damn potion, it's not like she cares who does it as long as it has pointy teeth and is cold to the touch, right? Seems like an oversight to me.
With romanced Astarion we should be able to ask him how he is doing just like we can ask Gale that, and it would be fun if he, just like Gale, had different answers to that depending on what we've done in the story etc etc.
Definitely need a date scene with Astarion (and all romances) a'la Karlach one.
A nitpick, but it would be nice if we could actually find Astarion's grave in the damn graveyard, why does it have to be a cutscene specific thing? Heck, if you approached that thing with ascendant Astarion he could have a pretty strong reaction to it. Can you imagine the possibilities? Ho ho!
1. It would be nice to have a small conversation with Astarion after the love test with the dryad to hear what he has to say about her verdict.
2. When Halsin propositions Tav and we ask Astarion what he thinks about the idea, there needs to be an option to tell him we only wanted to hear his opinion about it but had no intention of going through with it because he's the only one for us and then be able to reject Halsin despite Astarion's theatrical approval. He does say he'd wondered when Tav would mention it and had seen Halsin's yearning since the grove itself, he deserves some extra reassurance of love here after all the anguish and uncertainty he'd quietly gone through.
3. If engaging in polyamory with Halsin, Astarion has zero dialogue afterwards, which is rather strange. It's only logical they'd both want to check up on each other how they're doing. Astarion also wouldn't fail to make fun of Halsin some more and ask Tav about his performance. Tav could say that a) it was everything they wished for b) it was wilder than they expected and they may need some time to recover from it (the bear form exclusive option) c) it was good and they're curious to see what happens next d) it was fun but nowhere near as fun as with Astarion, but for now they'd see how it goes e) it was fine, but they kept thinking about Astarion throughout the night and are still unsure if they want to keep it as a one time thing or keep going f) they regret it, it doesn't compare to the bond with Astarion and they would break up with Halsin the next time they talk g) they didn't do it after all (if Tav changes their mind during the scene)
Shart needs this too! I'm dying for an option to jsut say that I was checking and actually want to stay exclusive.
And if engaging in polyamory with Halsin, SH asks for details, but you actually can't tell her "details", because you have zero dialogue options.
1. I don't think Tav is at this point with Astarion yet (what approval this convo appears on again? Medium?) where Tav would just let Astarion see him through Tav's eyes, but painting a picture or that entire mirror image suggestion of yours, yeah definitely(speaking of, if Astarion becomes an arcane trickster he should have access to mirror image so I guess it's an oversight by the devs lol). Also, I think there is that whole romantic aspect of the mirror convo!
Well, the companions communicate through the tadpole on multiple occasions, from time to time the merge even happens automatically. You enter Astarion's mind during his very introduction and see things from his perspective. You can also use the tadpole when he tries to bite you at night to see if you can trust him (again you see scenes as if you were in his body). It wouldn't be a stretch (if you previously rummaged through his brain twice, maybe you could return the favour?), especially if you want to roleplay your Tav as someone who enjoys having mind powers and feels a strong connection with Astarion. The scene also happens after Tav lets him drink their blood. If giving him blood is ok, then sharing the mind for a second shouldn't be a problem. I honestly don't care if he can see his beautiful face this way or another. I just want him to be able to have that experience and to hear his comments afterwards.
Originally Posted by Nicottia
2. That line has been changed ages ago already. In patch 2 or 3 iirc.
I checked for it before submitting my post and now again. It's still there.
Originally Posted by Nicottia
6. That is already in the game but is not triggering. Companions do comment (in banters) on our slowly blossoming relationship with Astarion, there are banters for all acts as well but currently they're not triggering at all. All Larian has to do is flip a switch and make it so they trigger finally.
Not only do I want these to trigger but I also want to have an actual conversation about it. Karlach, Shadowheart and Lae'zel can comment on you hanging out with Astarion during the grove party but when the relationship progresses suddenly they have nothing to say.
Originally Posted by Nicottia
7. No, Raphael played his role. At best maybe have him comment on present companions when we're exiting HoH, and maybe have him comment on Astarion's current state (ascendant or spawn, and if Tav is a vampire spawn, have him make a comment on that as well), but then have him make such comments on all companions' states (so like Sharran vs Selunite SH, etc etc).
All I'm asking for is a conversation with him acknowledging that's he aware that the ritual took place and what he thinks about it, vampire lord Astarion and Tav. If you kill
Raphael and talk to diabolist Helsik she mentions there is quite a stir in the hells afterwards. I reckon there would also be one if the ritual no one had ever dared to perform happened and 7007 souls suddenly ended up in hell.
Originally Posted by Nicottia
10. Wait, really? How? What hoops are those. But yeah, having some time to decide would be nice. But then again, it would be hard to implement with the way this game is structured.
Yes, you can stay mortal and continue to be together with ascended Astarion!
You have to skip the long rest after ascending him and immediately go to the point of no return to finish the game. Because it's in the game, it is canon then that he would keep trying to persuade Tav who's still hesitating. Hence my other suggestions.
Originally Posted by Nicottia
Also, I hear that there is a special cutscene for Tavs who rejected Astarion's immortality offer right after the docks, where he comes to you and kind of wants you back. I dunno how true it is, since I never went that route. Might test it one day.
I heard about it too but there is no video about it. I'll believe it when I see it.
Originally Posted by Nicottia
15. Sure, but the problem is that both Astarion (and Tav if spawn) change. Like entirely change, so what they feel towards each other is more akin to extreme possessiveness and not pure (innocent) love. Heck, when Astarion tries to convince Tav and says he loves them he does so in a very mocking manner. So not having the option to tell him you love him is actually pretty true to vampire lore in D&D. Altho, I guess vamp spawns, especially as fresh as Tav still retain some feelings in them (Astarion was 200 years a spawn and he could still feel love, so why not Tav?).
As mentioned before, as soon as you ascend him (and are still mortal) the game assumes you only want to stay with him because you want to become a vampire and to get physical with him. I guess it also believes you don't really love him and only continue the relationship because he's so powerful and hot. Besides, we don't know how much they change because Astarion is a new being (and by extension so is spawn Tav) and not a classic d&d vampire. Raphael says the Ascendant can enjoy all the good stuff humanity has to offer - love is part of that, isn't it? Astarion also mentions how his senses are sharper after the ritual - his feelings might also become more intense. He totally becomes more possessive but it doesn't have to be due to his transformation but instead to him simply being so confident and arrogant after the ritual. In the origin run there's never any comment from the narrator that he feels like his alignment/worldview/personality is changing, only his biology. He stops mincing words, gets super blunt, ropes Tav into bdsm - to me it seems that because he finally feels powerful he allows himself to speak and behave in the way he truly wants to, without self-censorship. Before ascension he sees himself as weak and pathetic. When you reject him and tell him 'there's nothing of the man I loved left in you' he even imitates and mocks his old behaviour strongly indicating that was just a persona he doesn't need anymore. He's indeed acting all cagey and manipulative when persuading Tav. Don't forget it's right after the ritual where he's still fully in the 'I'm an effing winner, suck it Cazador, I stole everything from you, buahahahaha' mode. I read it as him striking while the iron is still hot and wanting to turn Tav immediately to secure them for himself before they have the time to process what happened, feel remorse, and change their mind about him. He doesn't even expect Tav to help him with the ritual in the first place (he says so afterwards - 'I can't believe you let me do that, a pleasant surprise'). That's why he temporarily reverts to his seductive ways from act 1 to make sure Tav doesn't leave him - that's the only way he knows how to behave (to get what he wants) according to his own words post-breakup. He calms down and behaves all excited about the relationship like in act 2 and 3 as soon as you become his consort. At that point he truly feels no fear.
Originally Posted by Nicottia
In MF version he suddenly remembered he loved us. Hmmmm. I will use his own words from the party scene: "I hate it!".
Indeed it's odd that this is his most loving exchange.
Originally Posted by Nicottia
23. & 24. & 25. You really really love ascendant Astarion, don't you? But yeah, agree with all these points.
Guilty as charged. He's delightful. <3
Originally Posted by Nicottia
A nitpick, but it would be nice if we could actually find Astarion's grave in the damn graveyard, why does it have to be a cutscene specific thing? Heck, if you approached that thing with ascendant Astarion he could have a pretty strong reaction to it. Can you imagine the possibilities? Ho ho!
Agreed, I looked through all the graves hoping to find it and hear ascended Astarion make a comment. Tsk.
I heard new complaints that now when you reach the point of no return and share the end of the world kiss you can no longer kiss him again afterwards. I just checked my savegame and can confirm it to be true. WHY is he so broken after patch 4?
Guys! Astarion has a new kiss animation after the hotfix! He now grabs Tav's hip and pulls them closer to him. The kiss is longer and more passionate than all the previous iterations! Sadly broken for me, because he kisses the air in front of my Tav's forehead. The ascended romance scene is still pg13 unfortunately.
I checked for it before submitting my post and now again. It's still there.
I think it might be a case of patch incompatibilities. On release, with my drow I had that line, then on my 1st Durge it was still there and my 1st Durge was created after Patch 1. And my current tiefling Durge was created in patch 3 and had no 'saving their tails' line either. He just said 'let's stop wasting our time and go'. Maybe if you create a new save and romance him again you'll get the correct line? Or maybe he's just being extra sensitive to mentioning tails cause my Durge is a tiefling? I dunno.
Originally Posted by Ametris
Not only do I want these to trigger but I also want to have an actual conversation about it. Karlach, Shadowheart and Lae'zel can comment on you hanging out with Astarion during the grove party but when the relationship progresses suddenly they have nothing to say.
True, but half the time Lae and SH in particular are getting quite bugged and they don't notice anything, heck on my tiefling only Karlach had that line at the party, SH just wanted some private time without mentioning Astarion, and Lae wanted to bang lol. On my 1st Durge all 3 of them noticed the relationship with Astarion though. I don't know what bugs are those and what triggers them. It's really inconsistent when it comes to the party I gotta say. But it would be nice having the option to discuss our romance with pretty much anyone, hear some opinions (especially from Jaheira and Minsc lol). And it should be a feature for ALL romances too, not just Astarion.
Originally Posted by Ametris
Yes, you can stay mortal and continue to be together with ascended Astarion!
You have to skip the long rest after ascending him and immediately go to the point of no return to finish the game. Because it's in the game, it is canon then that he would keep trying to persuade Tav who's still hesitating. Hence my other suggestions.
Ooooooooh I just learned something new! DAMN Thanks for illuminating me! I had no idea it was even possible and that it has ending lines for it too! DAAAAAAAYUM! Mind blown!
Originally Posted by Ametris
I heard about it too but there is no video about it. I'll believe it when I see it.
Yeah same, like I said, I will test it one day and if it works like that then I will upload it lol. I blame it on the game being too new.
Originally Posted by Ametris
As mentioned before, as soon as you ascend him (and are still mortal) the game assumes you only want to stay with him because you want to become a vampire and to get physical with him. I guess it also believes you don't really love him and only continue the relationship because he's so powerful and hot.
Hmm true, you are correct! The game does treat Astarion not like a person but a toy post his ascension, which yep, is hella depressing!
Originally Posted by Ametris
I heard new complaints that now when you reach the point of no return and share the end of the world kiss you can no longer kiss him again afterwards. I just checked my savegame and can confirm it to be true. WHY is he so broken after patch 4?
I am gonna check it now! Also, the game has had a hotfix 10 which made his kiss.. even funnier! Both better and worse! I even made a vid of it and uploaded it, also, forgive my loud laughter but it's just hilarious!
I think it might be a case of patch incompatibilities. On release, with my drow I had that line, then on my 1st Durge it was still there and my 1st Durge was created after Patch 1. And my current tiefling Durge was created in patch 3 and had no 'saving their tails' line either. He just said 'let's stop wasting our time and go'. Maybe if you create a new save and romance him again you'll get the correct line? Or maybe he's just being extra sensitive to mentioning tails cause my Durge is a tiefling? I dunno.
My savegame is from patch 2 but patch 4 should still override it when testing things. I don't know why it's happening. Maybe I would need a whole new save indeed.
Originally Posted by Nicottia
Yeah same, like I said, I will test it one day and if it works like that then I will upload it lol. I blame it on the game being too new.
I hope the scene is there and it's not just a fake rumour.
Ah, I see the kiss is just as broken for you and it's even worse in other cases, hahaha! I wish Astarion's answers to 'what are we to you?' were fixed already. He's still unable to finish his lines.
My savegame is from patch 2 but patch 4 should still override it when testing things. I don't know why it's happening. Maybe I would need a whole new save indeed.
I mean, some things do stick to your saves, like for example, on my 1st Durge I had the 'I want us to be something real' scene without meeting the updated patch3/4 requirements (killing Orthon) and on reloading it still triggers. I did notice that some patches do work backwards while others don't.
Originally Posted by Ametris
Ah, I see the kiss is just as broken for you and it's even worse in other cases, hahaha!
Yup, disguise self FTW! The most useful spell in the game imho (I use it mostly to talk to corpses my party slaughtered)!
It feels like the updated version was only tested for normal bodied males lol. Females just get kissed somewhere between nose/forehead, and masculine bodied females/males are just.... laughing stock! But you know what is weird? I do recall that in the very first original kissing animations females would just stand on their toes to reach his mouth, I don't understand why it's not employed here, like instead of holding her hand he could just grab her back and bring her closer so that she'd kind of have to stand on her toes anyway... Larian still has some work cut out for them lol. But it's getting better.
Oh and yeh, I checked the end game kiss, it indeed disappears once selected and it's still the same old chaste kiss, Larian has again some work cut out for them lol.
Hmm, to me it looks like he grabs Tav by their hip in the new scene. I do like the detail with his deep breath after the kiss. They definitely do have things to work on but I'm glad they're putting in the effort. Hopefully they implement more of our suggestions as well.
Oh, a hip? Nah, it's definitely a hand holding reminiscent of his graveyard scene, all we need is to find someone with that free camera movement mod to confirm which one of us is correct!
But in all seriousness, that heavy breath is indeed a cool detail.
Also checked my Netherbrain fight saves to see if the ending sequences got changed/updated, but nah, still broken lol.
I think it might be a case of patch incompatibilities. On release, with my drow I had that line, then on my 1st Durge it was still there and my 1st Durge was created after Patch 1. And my current tiefling Durge was created in patch 3 and had no 'saving their tails' line either. He just said 'let's stop wasting our time and go'. Maybe if you create a new save and romance him again you'll get the correct line? Or maybe he's just being extra sensitive to mentioning tails cause my Durge is a tiefling? I dunno.
My savegame is from patch 2 but patch 4 should still override it when testing things. I don't know why it's happening. Maybe I would need a whole new save indeed.
No, the line is definitely still in the game. Experienced it yesterday with a Patch 4 Tav, romance scene before the grove party.
That said, I'm glad that Larian listens to the feedback. I'm pretty happy with the new kiss. Even if it's bugged for most body types atm, they got the right idea! Hope they just fix the body alignment and don't change it again.
No, the line is definitely still in the game. Experienced it yesterday with a Patch 4 Tav, romance scene before the grove party.
So I reloaded my save from my tiefling Durge to check if I was wrong, but it looks like you guys are correct, that line was gone for a bit but somehow somewhere got put back in the game lol. I remember on patch 3 it was not there (it was when my tiefling Durge was created and I was shocked that it was gone) but now patch 4/hotfix 10 he actually mentions it again. So yup, you are correct! And I am wrong! I stand corrected!
Originally Posted by Veranis
That said, I'm glad that Larian listens to the feedback. I'm pretty happy with the new kiss. Even if it's bugged for most body types atm, they got the right idea! Hope they just fix the body alignment and don't change it again.
Yup, same, I like the newest kiss animation the most it's just like you said, the body alignment is kinda cursed right now!
Same here! Love the new kiss, even if my character kisses the air. The subtle hip grab gave me chills...it's sexy now.
Wanted to check the ascension sex scene and it still camera pans to that dumb candle. No sexy hip-thrust for us yet...
But considering the kiss animations have been annoying for quite some time, I'm so happy to see progress! Woohoo! It's getting believable that Astarion is a devilish seductress
Same here! Love the new kiss, even if my character kisses the air. The subtle hip grab gave me chills...it's sexy now.
Wanted to check the ascension sex scene and it still camera pans to that dumb candle. No sexy hip-thrust for us yet...
But considering the kiss animations have been annoying for quite some time, I'm so happy to see progress! Woohoo! It's getting believable that Astarion is a devilish seductress
Come on, Larian, fix the hip thrust! Just as soon as you finish fixing the kiss scene (it cant be that hard)!
Oh, a hip? Nah, it's definitely a hand holding reminiscent of his graveyard scene, all we need is to find someone with that free camera movement mod (...)
Speaking of free cam... The graveyard scene is so much hotter in reality than what we see in the game! We completely miss out on that delicious leg slide.
I'd like to see the ascended romance scene restored to it's previous glory and the graveyard scene have better angles and be more similar to what's shown in the video.
Speaking of free cam... The graveyard scene is so much hotter in reality than what we see in the game! We completely miss out on that delicious leg slide.
That leg slide....dayum. *clears throat* Props to the mocap folk.
So, I just found this video that shows what could happen to Tav who tried to toy with ascended Astarion and dump him after becoming his spawn, pretty much being the worst case scenario of what I suggested in point 23 in the OP. That would have been one dark and angsty ending, that's for sure. Fitting actually, there should be dire consequences for messing with a possessive vampire lord.
Oh, a hip? Nah, it's definitely a hand holding reminiscent of his graveyard scene, all we need is to find someone with that free camera movement mod (...)
Speaking of free cam... The graveyard scene is so much hotter in reality than what we see in the game! We completely miss out on that delicious leg slide.
I'd like to see the ascended romance scene restored to it's previous glory and the graveyard scene have better angles and be more similar to what's shown in the video.
Um....*nervous swallow* that uh....that needs to be in the game...damn...
So, I just found this video that shows what could happen to Tav who tried to toy with ascended Astarion and dump him after becoming his spawn, pretty much being the worst case scenario of what I suggested in point 23 in the OP. That would have been one dark and angsty ending, that's for sure. Fitting actually, there should be dire consequences for messing with a possessive vampire lord.
That was a cool video. Definitely love the vampire lord energy that it was giving off.
Oh, a hip? Nah, it's definitely a hand holding reminiscent of his graveyard scene, all we need is to find someone with that free camera movement mod (...)
Speaking of free cam... The graveyard scene is so much hotter in reality than what we see in the game! We completely miss out on that delicious leg slide.
I'd like to see the ascended romance scene restored to it's previous glory and the graveyard scene have better angles and be more similar to what's shown in the video.
Seen this vid earlier in my recommended on youtube.
But yeah, I agree on both counts, I don't freaking get it why Larian changed the camera angle (or made that candle obscuring hip thrusts thicker) in his ascended love scene... but at least I am happy that Astarion is actually touching Tav in the newest kissing scene. Now if only that scene was also included in the end of the world kissing scene, or made even hotter... like that Ailyn x Isobel kissing. Those 2 (well together with Karlach now) have the best damn kissing scenes in this damn game lol.
Oh, a hip? Nah, it's definitely a hand holding reminiscent of his graveyard scene, all we need is to find someone with that free camera movement mod (...)
Speaking of free cam... The graveyard scene is so much hotter in reality than what we see in the game! We completely miss out on that delicious leg slide.
I'd like to see the ascended romance scene restored to it's previous glory and the graveyard scene have better angles and be more similar to what's shown in the video.
Ascended scene and in cemetery are the same. It's just Ascended shows us a little more of the process and continuation. He lies down on you and spreads legs is exactly the same. So I think if they change the angles in the cemetery scene or extend it, then it will be the same. The push is also used in two scenes, but at different times.
Yeah, they definitely created this game only thinking about what they assume guys like to see and what they assume guys do not like to see. This is an adult game with multiple very adult scenes; we have a "choose penis" option; why are they so insistent on hiding them? lololol
And the old romance scene from before the patch should be reinstated, the new one lacks somehow the hotness from the old one!
Which scene? What was changed? I saw that they removed the last full body shot with Astarion's hips gyration (how could they?!) during the ascended romance scene.
So... we can have Minthara doing everything she does in her "romance" scene, but we can't have Astarion move his hips a little?
Yeah, they definitely created this game only thinking about what they assume guys like to see and what they assume guys do not like to see. This is an adult game with multiple very adult scenes; we have a "choose penis" option; why are they so insistent on hiding them? lololol
Ascended scene and in cemetery are the same. It's just Ascended shows us a little more of the process and continuation. He lies down on you and spreads legs is exactly the same. So I think if they change the angles in the cemetery scene or extend it, then it will be the same. The push is also used in two scenes, but at different times.
Hmm, didn't notice they were the same (other than the push being there in two scenes). Then again, it's not like the game allows us to see these details. Would be nice to see a comparison video.
Okay, so I really, really love the new kiss for Astarion - it's a masterclass of both hot and sweet, and I especially love the reciprocity in the holding/arm gestures. 10/10, will smooch even more than I was already doing.
Still... while I was disappointed in the original kiss change where we got the really quick peck on the lips, a part of me was like "you know what, yeah. This suits someone who wants to show affection but isn't comfortable with his sexuality and is still figuring out how to express himself." My real disappointment was that it stayed that way after you wrapped up everything with him and he was willing to explore his sexuality again (one way or the other), and that it was just doubling down on the anticlimax of the 'final hour let's make this last kiss count' ridiculousness.
So while I'm happy with the change - I almost wish we had the chaste peck pre-Cazador, and then the current kiss after you've done his personal quest (or after the graveyard scene if you don't ascend him, I guess, since that would be a slightly more natural place to put it.) I adore this current kiss, but it doesn't feel like something he'd be doing right after the Act 2 confession, you know?
Slightly but today Neil Newbon received a Golden Joystick award for Best Supporting Performer and it's so well deserved! He truly brought Astarion to life!
I recently found out the vocal version of this song plays when you jump on a ledge behind Astarion in the first camp in Act 1. Imagine if we could actually hear him hum this ingame!
Oh, a hip? Nah, it's definitely a hand holding reminiscent of his graveyard scene, all we need is to find someone with that free camera movement mod to confirm which one of us is correct!
The mystery is solved! This is what I ran into today (the website won't let me embed the short for some reason)
Oh, a hip? Nah, it's definitely a hand holding reminiscent of his graveyard scene, all we need is to find someone with that free camera movement mod to confirm which one of us is correct!
The mystery is solved! This is what I ran into today (the website won't let me embed the short for some reason)
damn you Larian for giving us the most scuffed of angles for both kissing and love scenes...
The ingame angles are so prudish. I'd like to see this scene start off from the same back angle as in the short (so we can properly see the sexy grab), then switch to the profile shot and also allow us to see him using his second hand, then just continue with what is already there.
Ascended scene and in cemetery are the same. It's just Ascended shows us a little more of the process and continuation. He lies down on you and spreads legs is exactly the same. So I think if they change the angles in the cemetery scene or extend it, then it will be the same. The push is also used in two scenes, but at different times.
Hmm, didn't notice they were the same (other than the push being there in two scenes). Then again, it's not like the game allows us to see these details. Would be nice to see a comparison video.
Well you can use the free camera mod. He makes exactly the same movement with his leg and then kisses you. Like I don't think I can upload it here because they're not wearing clothes!
Not sure if you guys have seen or brought up the vampire bride / groom theory for the ascended route, but I actually find it incredibly convincing. It answers basically all the open questions I still had about Astarions behavior immediately post ascension and after making the PC into a spawn.
It even creates a fitting justification for why the spawn PC does not burn up in the dock cutscene even if you kill Astarion, and it also justifies why Astarion would let spawn DUrge kill themselves on the dock in front of him after betraying Bhaal as his prophet. Theyre not a spawn, but a bride / groom which are only bound to Astarion by a link that ensures they cant actually injure one another without injuring themselves. They cant actually be compelled.
Not sure if you guys have seen or brought up the vampire bride / groom theory for the ascended route, but I actually find it incredibly convincing. It answers basically all the open questions I still had about Astarions behavior immediately post ascension and after making the PC into a spawn.
It even creates a fitting justification for why the spawn PC does not burn up in the dock cutscene even if you kill Astarion, and it also justifies why Astarion would let spawn DUrge kill themselves on the dock in front of him after betraying Bhaal as his prophet. Theyre not a spawn, but a bride / groom which are only bound to Astarion by a link that ensures they cant actually injure one another without injuring themselves. They cant actually be compelled.
I've been thinking some more and have come up with new suggestions for the romance. I'll start with the one that would need the most work, down to the least complicated one.
1. An extra scene in act 3 after finishing Astarion's quest, basicly a date scene. - If Tav is Astarion's consort he could take them out into the night to teach them more about vampirism and how to hunt. Also, he could show off his new powers without prying eyes nearby. - If Astarion is a spawn he could take Tav out into the city and show them his favourite and/or secret spots where he used to hang out.
2. New options after passing the dryad love test if the romance was discontinued earlier.
Larian said before the release they wanted the romances to feel very real. One of the things that can happen in real life is that sometimes people break up, even end up with someone else, but then they get back together with their initial partner. You can't do that in the game. Once you break up with a companion, there's no way to rekindle the relationship. I think there should be a moment in act 3 where you can change your mind about your previous decisons. The love test is a fun gimmick scene but it could actually become something more and serve this purpose. You can ask any companion to do it with you and you basicly admit then that you have feelings for them. Surely that would make them think and see Tav in a new light, right? I think it would only work if Tav had heard Astarion's confession, and they had high approval. If you passed the test, he could tell Tav afterwards that although the whole thing had been pretty entertaining, he was wondering about Tav's motivation for doing it with him if they'd previously offered to just be his friend or got involved with someone else. Tav could then pick one of the following options:
a) although at the time they thought it was the right thing to do, they can't stop seeing him as more than a friend, the feelings are still there b) they still have feelings for him and regret getting involved with someone else c) they still have feelings for him but it might be better to stick to the current arrangement c) it was just for fun and the dryad is clueless (a total lie)
If interest in him is expressed then Astarion would ask Tav if what they meant is that they wanted to get back with him. Then the next lines would depend on his approval: - if exceptional he would say he'd never stopped having feelings as well and that that is what he would like. - if very good that he'd thought about it a couple of times and he would then ask for a confirmation if Tav was sure about it. - If good, Tav would have to persuade him to get back together. - if lower then he would turn Tav down.
If Tav was with someone else, then Astarion would ask them to deal with their current partner before they proceed.
3. Romanced Astarion should have different dialogues when he's dismissed from the party.
It's quite jarring when he's telling Tav 'I thought we had something special' when it's already established that that's the case, even more so after finishing his quest. He should have different lines for Act 2/pre-Cazador and then new lines post-Cazador for spawn and ascendant paths. Maybe he could even have different lines if he'd been dumped at some point.
4. A gifting option for Astarion.
Shadowheart can get a flower and I'd like to give him a small gift too! He has this funny banter with her about missing his calling as a perfumer, so I think a perfume would be a nice present for him.
5. Astarion should totally have a funny comment when distracting disciple Z'rell with lusts for him.
I mean, everyone has a unique comment depending on how we've dealt with the goblins a moment later. It should be the same in this situation, especially if you choose such a hilarious deflection and Astarion is right there and he can hear Z'rell drooling over him.
I've been thinking some more and have come up with new suggestions for the romance. I'll start with the one that would need the most work, down to the least complicated one.
1. An extra scene in act 3 after finishing Astarion's quest, basicly a date scene. - If Tav is Astarion's consort he could take them out into the night to teach them more about vampirism and how to hunt. Also, he could show off his new powers without prying eyes nearby. - If Astarion is a spawn he could take Tav out into the city and show them his favourite and/or secret spots where he used to hang out.
I'm almost sure we need Upper City for this. Astarion even has a comment about upper city. I am sure this is his real location, not the lower one.
If Tav is Astarion's consort he could take them out into the night to teach them more about vampirism and how to hunt. Also, he could show off his new powers without prying eyes nearby.
I really dont think Durge needs help in that department.
There is no doubt about it in mind, we are his Ascended Bride. Astarion still attempts to probably control us through manipulation by telling us we are a spawn, but we are most definitely a bride. Period. I just want everything when it comes to Astarion. Ascended, Non-Ascended. I want more in the story & cut scenes. Hell, I would watch movies of cut scenes of the life after the game with Astarion. Neil & the writers who brought Astarion to life have made my perfect pixel man. In all the aspects of him, the whole package. Either way, he is the reason I play the game. If it was not for this character, I don't know if I would play as much as I do. Period. So I have high hopes for how much more they will show us of the amazing story of this character. I seriously want it all.
There is no doubt about it in mind, we are his Ascended Bride. Astarion still attempts to probably control us through manipulation by telling us we are a spawn, but we are most definitely a bride. Period. I just want everything when it comes to Astarion. Ascended, Non-Ascended. I want more in the story & cut scenes. Hell, I would watch movies of cut scenes of the life after the game with Astarion. Neil & the writers who brought Astarion to life have made my perfect pixel man. In all the aspects of him, the whole package. Either way, he is the reason I play the game. If it was not for this character, I don't know if I would play as much as I do. Period. So I have high hopes for how much more they will show us of the amazing story of this character. I seriously want it all.
Astarion makes me feel greedy and, honestly, Im happy with that!
I'm almost sure we need Upper City for this. Astarion even has a comment about upper city. I am sure this is his real location, not the lower one.
I'm hoping we get to see it one day and that they relocate Cazador's mansion. Astarion talks about it being imposing and such and then we see it awkwardly perched above the Lower City and have to access it through some random guard tower. It needs a proper grand entrance!
Originally Posted by Yharmeru
I really dont think Durge needs help in that department.
They could always tailor the scene to Durge like they do with other origins.
Originally Posted by DarkAngelBeckons
There is no doubt about it in mind, we are his Ascended Bride. Astarion still attempts to probably control us through manipulation by telling us we are a spawn, but we are most definitely a bride. Period. I just want everything when it comes to Astarion. Ascended, Non-Ascended. I want more in the story & cut scenes. Hell, I would watch movies of cut scenes of the life after the game with Astarion. Neil & the writers who brought Astarion to life have made my perfect pixel man. In all the aspects of him, the whole package. (...)
I find the whole bride explanation both extremely touching and silly of Astarion. He finally finds someone who truly cares about him after 200 years of pure shit and then he's so desperate to keep them that he 'marries' them as soon as he can. And then he can tell them he doesn't intend to die, if they don't. Retreating into the palace for a decade to spend time together also sounds like his idea of a honeymoon. He's such an adorable love sap sometimes.
Originally Posted by Darkangel1211
Astarion makes me feel greedy and, honestly, Im happy with that!
There is no doubt about it in mind, we are his Ascended Bride. Astarion still attempts to probably control us through manipulation by telling us we are a spawn, but we are most definitely a bride. Period. I just want everything when it comes to Astarion. Ascended, Non-Ascended. I want more in the story & cut scenes. Hell, I would watch movies of cut scenes of the life after the game with Astarion. Neil & the writers who brought Astarion to life have made my perfect pixel man. In all the aspects of him, the whole package. Either way, he is the reason I play the game. If it was not for this character, I don't know if I would play as much as I do. Period. So I have high hopes for how much more they will show us of the amazing story of this character. I seriously want it all.
I have a lot of negativity about the game, storytalling i mean, but only Astarion keeps me in the game for 700 hours. i hope Larian give us new content or DE or DLC. I want tolk only good singth about this game =D
I've been playing computer games since the days of Daggerfall (yes I'm that old - sigh) and I don't think in all those years any other game character has had as much impact as Astarion. Most game NPC companions are just fun with a few quests, or eye candy, or basically pack mules. Astarion actually touches my heart in a way I never expected a pixel character to ever manage. Like another poster said earlier, he's probably the only reason I'm still playing this game instead of moving on to others.
Neil and the writing team did a superlative job - well, until last battle and the end anyway and I'm honestly unconvinced that the same writer wrote the end scenes.
But thats why his unascended ending on the docks is such a kick in the teeth, you can't make us care about characters then pull the rug out from under like that. It not only disrespects the character, but it disrespects their entire narrative throughout the game and the players who become fond of him.
I'm going the bride path this time out, simply because the so called 'good route' is the worst ending for a character I care about that I could imagine and the total lack of anything remotely resembling a proper wrap up ending just makes it 100 times worse.
I also believe, with a few other posters here, that Larian has a downer on his character. Every patch breaks something integral to his romance as if we are not supposed to get together with him. Much as I like kissing Astarion I would prefer it to be on the mouth not him kissing my forehead sigh. His actual romance scenes often cut dialogue short now and we get the infamoous 'continue' when they played perfectly pre patch 3. And apparently we can't see him naked in sex scenes without strategically placed candles or the camera deciding that the ceiling looks lovely at this time of year? So sex with a bear is OK but not with Astarion? Really Larian? - grow up!
One thing that really annoys me is the lack of any reference to previous games and vampire lore from them. Even the cut withers end dialogues still waffle on about Astarion and Tav searching through old tomes to find a cure for Spawn Astarion. If Jaheira is alive all they have to do is ask her, she is a cured vampire herself from BG2. Continuity with previous games (and the lore they created) is a least something they should give a passing nod to. Game went to the trouble of putting Astarions age and apparent length of time as a vampire sufficiently far under the point of no return time span to make a cure possible. It just doesn't make sense that if shes alive she wouldn't tell Tav or if she's dead that one of her kids dooesn't find her notes on it and pass them on. I mean in real life if you know something that can make a friends life easier you'd tell them right?
Be believable Larian, plot holes for the sake of angst and poignancy with nothing to back them up make zero sense, something that happens a lot in this game towards the end and not just to Astarion.
I agree with nearly everything said by the OP and many of the suggestion they make, and comments from other posters, are things that I believe almost every Astarion fan has either thought or posted about before.
i agree with op too. And i want add, Kazador/Astarion storytale must be more long. We have 5 minutes dialog and it is strange. In EA time, i think this will be more dramatic and informative. But all i get this 5 minuts. I dont say about cut content and political Kazador role... In this topic or another somebody saing about bal in Kazador castel. I was thinking the same thing. Maybe something like Winter Palace in DAI.
Be believable Larian, plot holes for the sake of angst and poignancy with nothing to back them up make zero sense, something that happens a lot in this game towards the end and not just to Astarion.
I agree with nearly everything said by the OP and many of the suggestion they make, and comments from other posters, are things that I believe almost every Astarion fan has either thought or posted about before.
I can't say this is a plot hole. Apparently, this must be an artistic trick in which Astarion deserves redemption by sacrificing the sun for the sake of the people he ruined. Redemption must be bitter. Another thing is that I hate all our actions at the end. We can't run after him. We can't comfort him or anything like this. I also hate how he reacts to our suicide. All final reactions are performed very poorly. Also, do not forget that Astarion is 200 years old, many options for curing vampirism do not work for him. If they add some cure to the game, then his lesson will not be learned.
Another thing is that I hate all our actions at the end. We can't run after him. We can't comfort him or anything like this. I also hate how he reacts to our suicide. All final reactions are performed very poorly.
Originally Posted by Bethra
Neil and the writing team did a superlative job - well, until last battle and the end anyway and I'm honestly unconvinced that the same writer wrote the end scenes.
But thats why his unascended ending on the docks is such a kick in the teeth, you can't make us care about characters then pull the rug out from under like that. It not only disrespects the character, but it disrespects their entire narrative throughout the game and the players who become fond of him.
I'm going the bride path this time out, simply because the so called 'good route' is the worst ending for a character I care about that I could imagine and the total lack of anything remotely resembling a proper wrap up ending just makes it 100 times worse.
It honestly feels like they slapped the ending together just to have something there for the release but didn't focus on any details whatsoever. Too many things, reactions and options are missing in there. Enjoy the ascended route, Bethra! It's much more coherent.
Originally Posted by Bethra
One thing that really annoys me is the lack of any reference to previous games and vampire lore from them. Even the cut withers end dialogues still waffle on about Astarion and Tav searching through old tomes to find a cure for Spawn Astarion. If Jaheira is alive all they have to do is ask her, she is a cured vampire herself from BG2.
Isn't the cut epilogue merely a followup to the option to look for a way for Astarion to walk in the sun again? He never expresses willingness to revert to being a mortal in the game so it wouldn't make sense for Withers to refer to that. I think what they could give the players instead is the ability to convince Jaheira to let Tav use her Rite of the Timeless Body scroll to perform the druidic ritual so they can slow down their aging. This way they can extend their time with Astarion.
If anyone was curious if the hotfix 11 patched anything related to our romance grievances... It didn't. At least the broken kiss was promised to be fixed in the future.
If anyone was curious if the hotfix 11 patched anything related to our romance grievances... It didn't. At least the broken kiss was promised to be fixed in the future.
Dang it, still waiting for Larian to fix the stupid candle scene in AA romance
I remembered a line from the devs before launch how Astarion's romance starts once we allow him to feed on us and that that's just how it works with him. Let's compare it to Gale's (weave scene) and Wyll's (dance scene) romance beginnings, which are clearly romantic and intimate in nature. Although, the bite is without a doubt intimate due to it's physical proximity aspect, there is nothing amorous about it. In fact, throughout the scene Tav looks like they're suffering and struggling to break free. We could argue it's Astarion's first time and he's very hungry and not gentle at all, but then later on, he comments on noticing how we'd enjoyed it and we can actually admit it to be true. The words just don't match the actions. It seems this scene was designed to be neutral and noncommital so it would work for both friendship and romance paths, and I'd prefer if it did in fact have more suggestive undertones, like with other male romances. I think there should be an extra option where we can select that Tav is feeling excitement with Astarion being suddenly so close to them and finding the whole thing pleasurable. The animation should change then to a more relaxed and sensual one, maybe with Tav putting their hand on his back and him leaning down a bit lower or even straddling Tav during the last persuasion check when he's losing himself in the bloodlust. If Tav can tell him they enjoyed it, I want to actually see them do that in the scene and not writhe in agony.
I think there should be an extra option where we can select that Tav is feeling excitement with Astarion being suddenly so close to them
This is exactly how i justify some of my characters letting him bite them. I was surprised such an obvious option wasn't available. Especially if the scene serves as a starting point for the romance.
It's especially grating when we have 5 opportunities to stake him during the scene but 0 options that would make it clear Tav is into him or at least curious about the bite.
Apparently this scene happens if we kill the Gur before entering the city, so they don't end up slaughtering the servants.
Since it's a legit outcome in the game, there need to be extra dialogues, because the whole thing is clearly unfinished. Astarion IS the new master after all. Spawn Tav should have something to say as well. They could actually decide together how to deal with them: a) keep them for the lulz until they're no longer useful b) instruct them to do hilarious things to show their devotion to their new lord c) dispose of them to remove traces of Cazador and have a clean slate d) decide to wait with the decision until the worm issue is taken care of
Apparently this scene happens if we kill the Gur before entering the city, so they don't end up slaughtering the servants.
Since it's a legit outcome in the game, there need to be extra dialogues, because the whole thing is clearly unfinished. Astarion IS the new master after all. Spawn Tav should have something to say as well. They could actually decide together how to deal with them: a) keep them for the lulz until they're no longer useful b) instruct them to do hilarious things to show their devotion to their new lord c) dispose of them to remove traces of Cazador and have a clean slate d) decide to wait with the decision until the worm issue is taken care of
I love that their new lord and master is *right there* and they dont react lolz.
It's especially grating when we have 5 opportunities to stake him during the scene but 0 options that would make it clear Tav is into him or at least curious about the bite.
Yeah and then you suddenly can agree with him when he says you enjoyed it. Thanks for letting me know that was an option, game. I guess.
Those 5 opportunities are bullshit because in the same game there are occasions when you get zero opportunities to do some obvious nice normal thing.
Apparently, this must be an artistic trick in which Astarion deserves redemption by sacrificing the sun for the sake of the people he ruined. Redemption must be bitter. Another thing is that I hate all our actions at the end. We can't run after him. We can't comfort him or anything like this. I also hate how he reacts to our suicide. All final reactions are performed very poorly. Also, do not forget that Astarion is 200 years old, many options for curing vampirism do not work for him. If they add some cure to the game, then his lesson will not be learned.
I think he's been a vampire for less than 200 years, he says Sebastian was 'one of my first' and that Seb had been there for 170 years. That leaves 30 years unaccounted for. I doubt Cazador let him sit in his room doing nothing all that time, so my personal feeling is that at most by the time Sebastian became the target Astarion had been a vampire for probably less than 10 years. (I did work out the maths at one point - to get 7k spawn between 7 siblings - some of whom came after Astarion, they would have had to be out in the city gathering up people an awful lot in the course of a year, a bit unrealistic ). It's telling that he remembers Sebastian whereas he didn't remember the children, he obviously didn't start dissociating himself until later. From what I remember of DnD lore 200 years as a vampire is the cut off for some cures, not how old he is and he's a high elf so a long life span anyway (up to 750 I think). If he refused to do anything his body would carry out the order without his volition as he says himself - or if it was something that needed him to participate and he refused he was severely punished. So how can he be held responsible for what he was made to do? I really doubt given the option anyone would choose to be buried alive for a year no matter how noble they purport to be, at least not more than once anyway.
In any case being treated as an abused slave for 170 to 180 ish years is more than enough punishment for whatever sins (the released game never mentions any such) he may or may not have committed prior to being turned.
He does voice unhappiness with his vampire status several times in the game, nothing as a major dialogue but little remarks here and there, like not being able to use a mirror as 'Just another thing I've had taken away from me' in tones of utter discontent followed by slamming the mirror onto the ground. And we all know he wants to be able to walk in the sun. It's not just the sunlight thing either, its easy to forget that line from the narrator early in Act 1 'Slave to Sanguine Hunger'. Unascended Astarion at game end will have to deal with no sunlight ever again on top of needing blood, instead of coffee and a sandwich. He won't be able to travel easily (running water) and campsites are out. I doubt a tent will cut the sun out completely, unless Baldurs Gate tentmakers are used to working with blackout fabric. And now that Cazador is dead that life is all he has left - for eternity. Without Tav if romanced, they will die their natural death and leave him alone. I don't think I'd wish that fate on my worst enemy let alone my lover.
Nothing about a cure is ever raised in BG3 so he can't voice an opinion on it. We don't know if he would consider it or not, as its never offered as an option we could work towards. My personal feeling is he might jump at the idea as it would completely free him from the hunger, a spawn has nothing special in the way of power to lose, allow us to travel as easily as we have been doing all game, and allow him to walk in daylight for the rest of his naturally long life.
My point is that the possibility should have been mentioned as previous games dealt with it and that is a plot hole. They have the one person who would intimately know how to cure it in the game, actually possible to have her in your camp with her tent only a few feet away from his at Rivington, and it never gets mentioned.
So yeah for Unascended Astarion I want one of our chats with him to mention the possibility of going to talk to Jaheira at the very least. Is that so hard? I want to be able to help him at the docks (or not have that scene at all) and have Jaheira come and chat to us, mention the possibility and leave us to talk about it. I want to be able to hug him and say I'll support whatever decision he feels is right for him. Not decide for him - I've pretty much done enough of that. I don't even need to know what that decision is if Larion doesn't want to go down that rabbit hole, but to know the possibility exists for him would be enough. Other than that more hugs. more proper kisses not one second wonders, more responses that make sense for new lovers and where we treat each other as equals not me deciding everything and him going along with it.
For Ascended Astarion I don't think as much is missing, but more chat responses would be nice and more hugs.
Less of this standing 5 feet apart and folding our arms please, this is our lover, not the damn window cleaner we're talking to.
Now that I've played through the new epilogue with AA and watched alternative options, here are my observations:
1. I'm conflicted about the new animations for post final battle private chat. They look more fluid and Astarion doesn't look as stiff with hand gestures but I think the frequent close-ups on his face are a bit distracting, especially since in some of them his skin looks extremely pale compared to other shots. I also miss the little head bow after selecting 'I wouldn't want it any other way', his cute smile when he says 'that makes US the most powerful people in the world' and I preferred it when he closed his mouth after the laugh - now he looks a bit derpy as the screen blackens. I like extra smugness on his face when he talks about the power and his newly added smile during the line 'true... freedom'. Tav looks happier too and doesn't cross their arms like before, which is a big plus.
2. The intro made sense for my choice (staying in Baldur's Gate) but it doesn't after selecting the option to travel together - the narrator should say they received the letter while staying somewhere and you simply changed your travelling schedule to attend the party.
3. I LOVE his outfit during the celebration, though I wish female Tav would arrive wearing a robe or generally something more feminine.
4. Astarion turning into a bat and flying around spying on people is adorable and hilarious!
5. He can see himself in the mirror! Finally! So happy this was included!
6. 'I may have power, but it would be nothing without you. You complete me. And together, we are unstoppable. So Heavens help the fool that tries to get in our way.' - amazing lines!
7. 'I will be watching. I am always... watching.' - Yandere Astarion, haha, he is delightful The way AA pronounces that last 'watching' does things to me. Neil Newbon knocked it out of the park once more. <3
8. I like how he's thoughtful with the 'We have en eternity for chit-chat, my love. The others only get you for tonight. I can't keep you all to myself', as well as other lines and yet still making it clear the power dynamic thing is not gonna go away if Tav can express doubts about the relationship flourishing. It shows that he doesn't see Tav as a slave, but that he's obssessed and very protective of them.
9. Please give us an option to kiss AA, only him and ascended Gale don't have have any intimate options. It would also reflect the lustful tone of the relationship, while spawn has a hug to higlight the romantic tone. Taking into account how he enjoys that others see them being happy together, I'm sure he wouldn't mind an extra show of affection.
10. In the OP I was suggesting a possible scenario for mortal and spawn Tav who rejected him, but I'm happy with what's in the game now. Although some extra angst might have been interesting, I think I actually prefer it that he calms down even more and is civil with Tav. He doesn't even get triggered anymore if he's compared to Cazador. It shows character growth. Though, seeing how much he misses Tav, his talk about seeing them again in the future, etc. I think Tav should have an option to suggest getting back together. I think there should have been some differences if they stayed as partners in crime as well. Then they could indicate that it's not the first time they see each other since the original ending.
Overall, I'm quite pleased with the party scenes. He is still the arrogant, magnificent bastard I love. Just please add that kiss option and a line asking Astarion if he'd like to get back together if he was broken up with, and then I'll be completely satisfied with the epilogue party.
Now that I've played through the new epilogue with AA and watched alternative options, here are my observations:
1. I'm conflicted about the new animations for post final battle private chat. They look more fluid and Astarion doesn't look as stiff with hand gestures but I think the frequent close-ups on his face are a bit distracting, especially since in some of them his skin looks extremely pale compared to other shots. I also miss the little head bow after selecting 'I wouldn't want it any other way', his cute smile when he says 'that makes US the most powerful people in the world' and I preferred it when he closed his mouth after the laugh - now he looks a bit derpy as the screen blackens. I like extra smugness on his face when he talks about the power and his newly added smile during the line 'true... freedom'. Tav looks happier too and doesn't cross their arms like before, which is a big plus.
2. The intro made sense for my choice (staying in Baldur's Gate) but it doesn't after selecting the option to travel together - the narrator should say they received the letter while staying somewhere and you simply changed your travelling schedule to attend the party.
3. I LOVE his outfit during the celebration, though I wish female Tav would arrive wearing a robe or generally something more feminine.
4. Astarion turning into a bat and flying around spying on people is adorable and hilarious!
5. He can see himself in the mirror! Finally! So happy this was included!
6. 'I may have power, but it would be nothing without you. You complete me. And together, we are unstoppable. So Heavens help the fool that tries to get in our way.' - amazing lines!
7. 'I will be watching. I am always... watching.' - Yandere Astarion, haha, he is delightful The way AA pronounces that last 'watching' does things to me. Neil Newbon knocked it out of the park once more. <3
8. I like how he's thoughtful with the 'We have en eternity for chit-chat, my love. The others only get you for tonight. I can't keep you all to myself', as well as other lines and yet still making it clear the power dynamic thing is not gonna go away if Tav can express doubts about the relationship flourishing. It shows that he doesn't see Tav as a slave, but that he's obssessed and very protective of them.
9. Please give us an option to kiss AA, only him and ascended Gale don't have have any intimate options. It would also reflect the lustful tone of the relationship, while spawn has a hug to higlight the romantic tone. Taking into account how he enjoys that others see them being happy together, I'm sure he wouldn't mind an extra show of affection.
10. In the OP I was suggesting a possible scenario for mortal and spawn Tav who rejected him, but I'm happy with what's in the game now. Although some extra angst might have been interesting, I think I actually prefer it that he calms down even more and is civil with Tav. He doesn't even get triggered anymore if he's compared to Cazador. It shows character growth. Though, seeing how much he misses Tav, his talk about seeing them again in the future, etc. I think Tav should have an option to suggest getting back together. I think there should have been some differences if they stayed as partners in crime as well. Then they could indicate that it's not the first time they see each other since the original ending.
Overall, I'm quite pleased with the party scenes. He is still the arrogant, magnificent bastard I love. Just please add that kiss option and a line asking Astarion if he'd like to get back together if he was broken up with, and then I'll be completely satisfied with the epilogue party.
200%! Nothing further to add on my end, Id love a kiss scene with him; any chance to give that man a smooch, honestly *blush*
Now that I've played through the new epilogue with AA and watched alternative options, here are my observations:
1. I'm conflicted about the new animations for post final battle private chat. They look more fluid and Astarion doesn't look as stiff with hand gestures but I think the frequent close-ups on his face are a bit distracting, especially since in some of them his skin looks extremely pale compared to other shots. I also miss the little head bow after selecting 'I wouldn't want it any other way', his cute smile when he says 'that makes US the most powerful people in the world' and I preferred it when he closed his mouth after the laugh - now he looks a bit derpy as the screen blackens. I like extra smugness on his face when he talks about the power and his newly added smile during the line 'true... freedom'. Tav looks happier too and doesn't cross their arms like before, which is a big plus.
2. The intro made sense for my choice (staying in Baldur's Gate) but it doesn't after selecting the option to travel together - the narrator should say they received the letter while staying somewhere and you simply changed your travelling schedule to attend the party.
3. I LOVE his outfit during the celebration, though I wish female Tav would arrive wearing a robe or generally something more feminine.
4. Astarion turning into a bat and flying around spying on people is adorable and hilarious!
5. He can see himself in the mirror! Finally! So happy this was included!
6. 'I may have power, but it would be nothing without you. You complete me. And together, we are unstoppable. So Heavens help the fool that tries to get in our way.' - amazing lines!
7. 'I will be watching. I am always... watching.' - Yandere Astarion, haha, he is delightful The way AA pronounces that last 'watching' does things to me. Neil Newbon knocked it out of the park once more. <3
8. I like how he's thoughtful with the 'We have en eternity for chit-chat, my love. The others only get you for tonight. I can't keep you all to myself', as well as other lines and yet still making it clear the power dynamic thing is not gonna go away if Tav can express doubts about the relationship flourishing. It shows that he doesn't see Tav as a slave, but that he's obssessed and very protective of them.
9. Please give us an option to kiss AA, only him and ascended Gale don't have have any intimate options. It would also reflect the lustful tone of the relationship, while spawn has a hug to higlight the romantic tone. Taking into account how he enjoys that others see them being happy together, I'm sure he wouldn't mind an extra show of affection.
10. In the OP I was suggesting a possible scenario for mortal and spawn Tav who rejected him, but I'm happy with what's in the game now. Although some extra angst might have been interesting, I think I actually prefer it that he calms down even more and is civil with Tav. He doesn't even get triggered anymore if he's compared to Cazador. It shows character growth. Though, seeing how much he misses Tav, his talk about seeing them again in the future, etc. I think Tav should have an option to suggest getting back together. I think there should have been some differences if they stayed as partners in crime as well. Then they could indicate that it's not the first time they see each other since the original ending.
Overall, I'm quite pleased with the party scenes. He is still the arrogant, magnificent bastard I love. Just please add that kiss option and a line asking Astarion if he'd like to get back together if he was broken up with, and then I'll be completely satisfied with the epilogue party.
I support you, especially about the kiss. I'm sure he'd like to do something revealing. Although I'm not sure about the clothes. There is a wardrobe in the camp where you can change clothes. I think they made a beautiful gender-neutral costume. But if you don't like it, then you can go to the chest and choose any other one. Although I would certainly like a unique costume, but in this case it is the same for everyone, even if you appear alone.
I know about the chest, I switched to the drow outfit, but it still felt kinda meh that I had to choose from old outfits and didn't get a shiny new feminine one from the start. It is especially jarring when Astarion is wearing basicly the same thing just with different textures. They arrived looking like two bros and I noped out of that. It's fitting for male Tav but not for female Tav imo.
Lord Astarion in party: We share a palace, share power, live lives eternal in each other's arms. What more could anyone want?
Arms over here. Right now. Cuddle.
The weirdo-kiddo who loves yandere and edgy dark romance novels got candy. Thank you, Larian. But I'm too greedy to stop at one.
We have some good answer choices to play a couple of villains. But I really want to play an even more romantic Tav. Apparently, Lord Astarion thinks "sentimentality" is too much, as he said in a friend-dialog. His romance is more wild than sweet. It's just: my Tav is decadent, but still playfully-gentle. I'd like to try play like this. It would improve my experience. I don't know for sure how he'll react (I think he'll give himself a hug, though, only with some spicy thing maybe), either way I surely want to see it.
I'm still hoping for epilogues for the epilogue (?) Just I saw the epilogues as something cinematic for each companion and each endings. Specifically, for Astarion. We have these pearls from the game files:
- He and his love scour tomes and ancient texts, seeking a way to return him to the light. Their search hath bourne no fruit yet, but they hunt on.
- Though one guest is notably missing. A former lover. From time to time, Astarion doth ponder inviting her, but deemeth it beneath a lord. - Rumours of their debauchery abound, but all agree a night revelling with them will be the greatest or most horrifying night of your life. - His former master destroyed, thousands of souls sacrificed, and his place as the Vampire Ascendant secured. His parties alone are worthy of ballads and legends. Though no ballads are ever writ, such is the fear that doth swirl about Astarion and his bloody consort - The Vampire Ascendant. He chose to leave Baldur's Gate with his consort and travel the world, indulging in every delight it offered.
The party looks like good conversation, it was needed too, really. But here are clips like the epic first one I think will please everyone. True, It takes a lot of time for those. I also want to see the lavish halls and the huge lush late-medieval fantasy ship with dragon ornaments, aw.
I'd certainly love to see both a kiss and a hug but I have doubts we'd get both. But who knows? Maybe one day they will add extra slides, though I'm already quite happy with what we received this patch. Withers' 'It is over. For NOW' does make me wonder if they will reconsider and give us a DLC.
Yandere Astarion is even better seen talking to the MC from 1st person perspective: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jfb8qXi4pfg I love that people are posting these shorts nowadays. Also, a while ago we were trying to guess the logistics of Astarion's newest kiss, namely where he keeps his hands. Now that they fixed the kiss, it looks like they also... enhanced it a little bit as Nirraart posted on her channel showing interesting pics. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB...?lb=UgkxIxo53DtCFeAadZlb_GOcI1dC2NNvonoO
Nyloth posted a short with Astarion seeing himself for the first time in the mirror after ascending! It's so beautiful and touching! Awww, I'm so glad Larian listened! <3
Does anyone know if romanced Wyll can be kissed or hugged in the epilogue? Because after seeing that ascended Gale actually got a new cutscene where he kisses the MC, so far it seems only ascended Astarion cannot have an intimate moment with his consort. It's not nice.
Nyloth posted a short with Astarion seeing himself for the first time in the mirror after ascending! It's so beautiful and touching! Awww, I'm so glad Larian listened! <3
Also, a while ago we were trying to guess the logistics of Astarion's newest kiss, namely where he keeps his hands. Now that they fixed the kiss, it looks like they also... enhanced it a little bit as Nirraart posted on her channel showing interesting pics. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB...?lb=UgkxIxo53DtCFeAadZlb_GOcI1dC2NNvonoO
Oh my! I wish the camera would be zoomed out more. Now if they could just spice up the Endgame kiss - I thought I read in the patch notes that they did implemented new ones, but I guess that was just wishful thinking as it's still the same old peck.
Yes, we deserve better angles for this kiss to see all the good stuff! I posted about the endgame kiss in the patch notes thread earlier, hopefully it is on their radar. Actually the first kiss during act 1 sex scene is not aligned for me. My Tav kisses his chin while he kisses the side of her nose. And ascended Astarion needs a kiss during the epilogue party too. So many kisses that need work!
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
Now only if Larian let us give him that portrait if he doesn't ascend.
Apologies, I haven't (yet) read the while thread but I still wanted to share my suggestion for the romance epilogue scene with unascended Astarion. I put the actual quotes from the game in italics. _____________________________________________
The Epilogue for Astarion and his romantic partner is severely lacking emotional depth and intimacy. Astarion and the PC are in love, yet it's not shown at all. It looks more like they barely want to be in the same room with him.
Astarion: 'Hello darling. I was just thinking about freedom. How I'm free of the parasite - free of Cazador. How I'll never be in someone's power again. And all it cost was my life in the sun. Now I belong to the shadows. So. What happens next?' I like that part aside from 'What happens next?'. I'd prefer 'What are we going to do next?'.
(I'm going to only talk about one of the possible answers here since that's the one I prefer and therefore I don't have an opinion on the others.)
PC: 'I'll help you find a way to walk in the sun again.' That line sounds incredibly condescending to me. They are in a relashionship as equals after all. Better were something along the lines of 'We could search for a way for you to walk in the sun again, love. Would you like that?'
Astarion: 'You - do you think it's possible? I suppose there is a chance. And if there's a chance, no matter how small, I'm going to take it. And it would mean setting off on another adventure together. Is that what you want? Is this what you want?' I actually really like that part as is.
Astarion: 'I would understand if you wanted to go your own way.' I think, it makes not much sense but don't really mind it being there.
PC: 'No, this is what I want.' This sentence shows no emotions whatsoever, it's completely hollow and disappointing. Please, let me tell him 'I love you, Astarion. To be with you is what I want.'
Astarion: 'Good, because selfless as I am, I really did not want to let you go.' Minor change with huge impact would be: 'Good, because I love you too and selfless as I am, I really did not want to let you go.' Astarion should take PC's hands during that sentence, drawing them closer together.
Astarion: 'We are rather excellent together, you know. And united, there is nothing we can't do. I can't say what the future holds for us, but I know we'll be facing it together.' Why don't they kiss?
Astarion: 'And we're going to have a lot of fun.' Here they should embrace each other in a tight hug, both happily smiling, before it fades to black.
Very nice suggestions how to improve that scene! Have you checked it again after the patch? Because they did tamper with animation in the ascended outcome. Have they changed anything in the unascended scene? I hope they will eventually add proper intimacy so the characters behave like an actual couple.
Unfortunately not. I haven't updated yet because my current playthrough is modded and I want to finish it first. Haven't heard of changes in that scene yet.
To have them act like a proper couple is all I want really (well, in that scene. I also want the docks scene fixes, transmog, etc. lol)
Have they changed anything in the unascended scene? I hope they will eventually add proper intimacy so the characters behave like an actual couple.
madforhoran on tumblr said: "the only thing I noticed different is cam angle is now facing Astarion instead of Tav when he asks "is that what you want?" after picking what's next"
So they did tamper with the scene. I hope the'll continue to work on it.
Somebody at Larian understands our need to stare at that perfect face.
I'm slowly working my way towards the endgame on my current save, but boy do I not want to experience that ending scene again. Ascended Astarion might be the first one who makes it to the party.
Also, I did the drow thing with Astarion and Halsin today, because curiosity killed the cat and all that and, well. It's still bad.
madforhoran on tumblr said: "the only thing I noticed different is cam angle is now facing Astarion instead of Tav when he asks "is that what you want?" after picking what's next"
So they did tamper with the scene. I hope the'll continue to work on it.
That's great that the crossed arms are gone from both paths! I also noticed after comparing this video with an old one that Astarion has different facial expressions when he says 'How I'm free of the parasite - free of Cazador. How I'll never be in someone's power again.' He looks more somber and melancholic, no longer smiling a bit smugly when mentioning Cazador.
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
Also, I did the drow thing with Astarion and Halsin today, because curiosity killed the cat and all that and, well. It's still bad.
I saw they added different animations for the start of the scene, as well as a shot of all participants sleeping on the floor afterwards. It sucks there's still no reactivity when Tav sees Astarion's discomfort.
I also noticed after comparing this video with an old one that Astarion has different facial expressions when he says 'How I'm free of the parasite - free of Cazador. How I'll never be in someone's power again.' He looks more somber and melancholic, no longer smiling a bit smugly when mentioning Cazador.
Finally had time to compare them side by side and you're right! It's definitely a few steps in the right direction and a very welcome change. Still hoping they do more - I sound like a spoiled brat, don't I?
I saw they added different animations for the start of the scene, as well as a shot of all participants sleeping on the floor afterwards. It sucks there's still no reactivity when Tav sees Astarion's discomfort.
Yeah, you can even tell him you're looking at him to make sure he's fine, but it doesn't mean anything. And then later you see he's not fine and do nothing. With Halsin in a mix it's really kind of gross how he invites himself and disapproves if you tell him no. But I didn't know that Astarion also disapproves, just like SH. Which makes even less sense for him because he doesn't even like Halsin.
Still hoping they do more - I sound like a spoiled brat, don't I.
Nothing wrong with that, after all Larian spoiled us in the first place with such an amazing character. It's only natural to want improvements to make the experience even better.
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
With Halsin in a mix it's really kind of gross how he invites himself and disapproves if you tell him no. But I didn't know that Astarion also disapproves, just like SH. Which makes even less sense for him because he doesn't even like Halsin.
I don't understand this disapproval either. You'd think he'd be happy without him getting involved. The only way I can possibly explain it is that he wants him to keep the drow twins busy so he can focus on Tav himself.
I don't understand this disapproval either. You'd think he'd be happy without him getting involved. The only way I can possibly explain it is that he wants him to keep the drow twins busy so he can focus on Tav himself.
Somebody probably thought it would be funny if he disapproved. "Would be funny" doesn't always make good writing though.
So today I saw that Gale God has his own cutscene with a partner, and Justiciar Shadow can be kissed twice and then hugged. Ascended Astarion is the only one who does not have a romantic interaction? I guess I don't understand something...
I still haven't seen anyone upload a romanced Wyll epilogue video, which would settle the matter for good. But yes, it seems it's only ascended Astarion who got shafted like this.
I noticed another thing that got changed. When Astarion ascends and talks about the delicious feeling and we can make a comment, the companions who are standing behind us now have different facial expressions. Previously, they looked sad and worried, and now they look intrigued.
Ascension really makes that side of him come out more, heh.
Yup, it totally does. His comment that it's good the others can see them side by side and that only a fool would try to get in their way tells me he likes to show off and treats Tav like a trophy wife. It's mind-boggling he doesn't do anything suggestive with Tav during the party to proudly prove that Tav is his (in case anyone who tried to romance them in the past still had lingering feelings).
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
Someone at Larian is really into BDSM lol. We have Lae'zel in Act 1, Ascended Astarion, Minthara at the goblin party, Haarlep,..
It's mind-boggling he doesn't do anything suggestive with Tav during the party to proudly prove that Tav is his (in case anyone who tried to romance them in the past still had lingering feelings).
Probably thinks it's beneath him.
Also, I got to the endgame today and now before the spawn romance epilogue narrator says you're "almost entirely free." I'm pretty sure that line belongs exclusively to ascended Astarion.
Originally Posted by Veranis
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
He can tell Durge they will be sitting on his lap, and Larian missed an opportunity to make that happen at the party?
I also hope that the lack of a romantic interaction for Ascended Astarion in the epilogue is either an oversight, the result of some kind of blocker, or content to be added in the future. It does seem like an odd choice to have made deliberately. The relationship is one of complete and total power imbalance, but given Ascendant Astarion's obvious obsession with decadence in general and Tav in particular it's hard to imagine it as anything other than passionate.
I do love that Tav finally gets the option to ask if he wants anything, though. His answer to that is perfect, and feels like exactly how he would have responded if Tav could have asked prior (for example, during the conversation before being turned).
I do love that Tav finally gets the option to ask if he wants anything, though. His answer to that is perfect, and feels like exactly how he would have responded if Tav could have asked prior (for example, during the conversation before being turned).
This seemed like the least interesting thing to say to him, considering I enjoyed the chat and didn't want to tell him I was going away already. That answer is perfect indeed, though! He just has to say the best thing to make you not want to leave, haha.
Now that I finally saw one vid with romanced Wyll, I made a summary of interactions with romanced companions in the epilogue party (feel free to add things if I missed something):
Minthara - can be kissed twice (the second kiss is more passionate), you can tell her you love her (humanoid and MF Tav) Selunite Shadowheart - can be hugged and kissed, she will insist on the kiss if you try to leave early (humanoid and MF Tav), can adopt the owlbear Sharran Shadowheart - can be hugged and kissed twice (humanoid and MF Tav) Human Gale - can be kissed and will tell you he loves you (humanoid and MF Tav) God Gale - takes you to heaven, kisses you and makes you a Goddess/God, kisses you when saying goodbye if you refuse to go with him Karlach - can be kissed (also if you or her are a MF) Halsin - can be hugged and kissed twice (humanoid and MF Tav), can adopt the owlbear Lae'zel in Faerun - can be kissed, you can tell her you love her, she will adopt the boy hatched from the githyanki egg with you and talk about him Lae'zel in the Astral - can be hugged and kissed, will call you 'my love' which, coming from her is a big deal Wyll - tells you he loves you and tosses a kiss your way (still waiting for MF Tav videos to confirm they stay together) Spawn Astarion - can be hugged Ascended Astarion - ...
Honestly, why does Astarion have so little content in comparison? And Ascendant nothing at all? This is the type of behaviour I expected from AA:
As it is right now, Tav has no option to tell Ascended Astarion 'I love you' throughout the entire game and we have zero romantic gestures in the epilogue. #JusticeforAscendedAstarion!
I agree, somehow the writers seem to have decided for us that if you choose to Ascend Astarion than your character can't possibly love him. The question of whether an Ascended Astarion can return that love is an entirely separate issue. I think it's perfectly legitimate for Tav to have fallen in love with the darker side of Astarion's character from the start, and to prefer that aspect of him. This is roleplay. Characters should be able to have any number of motives driving them, pure and otherwise.
Honestly, this is a topic I could write pages about. Astarion is just that layered.
Yes, it's clear that Tav will never be an equal in Ascended Astarion's eyes, and they will never be free from him. Neither of those things suggest to me that the relationship would be passionless. To the contrary, a lot of his comments suggest that there's a great deal of attraction.
I do love that Tav finally gets the option to ask if he wants anything, though. His answer to that is perfect, and feels like exactly how he would have responded if Tav could have asked prior (for example, during the conversation before being turned).
This seemed like the least interesting thing to say to him, considering I enjoyed the chat and didn't want to tell him I was going away already. That answer is perfect indeed, though! He just has to say the best thing to make you not want to leave, haha.
Now that I finally saw one vid with romanced Wyll, I made a summary of interactions with romanced companions in the epilogue party (feel free to add things if I missed something):
Minthara - can be kissed twice (the second kiss is more passionate), you can tell her you love her (humanoid and MF Tav) Selunite Shadowheart - can be hugged and kissed, she will insist on the kiss if you try to leave early (humanoid and MF Tav), can adopt the owlbear Sharran Shadowheart - can be hugged and kissed twice (humanoid and MF Tav) Human Gale - can be kissed and will tell you he loves you (humanoid and MF Tav) God Gale - takes you to heaven, kisses you and makes you a Goddess/God, kisses you when saying goodbye if you refuse to go with him Karlach - can be kissed (also if you or her are a MF) Halsin - can be hugged and kissed twice (humanoid and MF Tav), can adopt the owlbear Lae'zel in Faerun - can be kissed, you can tell her you love her, she will adopt the boy hatched from the githyanki egg with you and talk about him Lae'zel in the Astral - can be hugged and will call you 'my love' which, coming from her is a big deal Wyll - tells you he loves you and tosses a kiss your way (still waiting for MF Tav videos to confirm they stay together) Spawn Astarion - can be hugged Ascended Astarion - ...
Honestly, why does Astarion have so little content in comparison? And Ascendant nothing at all? This is the type of behaviour I expected from AA:
As it is right now, Tav has no option to tell Ascended Astarion 'I love you' throughout the entire game and we have zero romantic gestures in the epilogue. #JusticeforAscendedAstarion!
Yes, I'm just convinced they hate this version of the character. Why add two development options at all if you hate it so much. Awful...
Writers hate him and automatically assume that we should hate him too or he should be unpleasant because he's a "narcissistic asshole" and all that.
I think writers in this case do not like to write evil at all, because even in Durge preview, the introduction is "I have to get rid of dark impulses", and not "I have to figure this out" or "accept dark impulses". That is, the game automatically directs you to "fix" something. I have a lot of problems with any evil and morally questionable action in the game. The fact that evil players were deprived of content and were not given variably evil endings (for example rule with Gortash) shows.
In early access, I expected Astarion to be some kind of villain who would burn down cities for you. But they did everything completely differently and presented it as "not freedom." Although we have Minthara, she doesn't have any content at all, and I'm not interested in female characters as a love interest. So we only have one evil male companion and that's what we get. (apart from the bulling by spawn fans) Like, I don't want to fix villains and turn them into the likeness of heroes. I want my characters to be evil couples! When they burn the world down for each other. Is it really that difficult?
Spawn Astarion - can be hugged Ascended Astarion - ...
Honestly, why does Astarion have so little content in comparison? And Ascendant nothing at all?
They were too busy putting Orin's outfit on him.
Originally Posted by Ametris
This is the type of behaviour I expected from AA:
Astarion has an unfair amount of content that you only get if you play as Karlach, which in my case is never. That kiss really should be available for Tav/Durge. It's beautiful.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
In early access, I expected Astarion to be some kind of villain who would burn down cities for you.
I imagine if the upper city had made it into the game, both versions of Astarion would've been better. And could cause some actual chaos.
Think about this. You can play as an evil character, but when leaving Dark Lands, narrator will still say that you are sorry you did not remove the curse. You can remain an evil durge by refusing to accept Bhaal and choosing the option "I'm still evil." But at the end of the game, the narrator will tell you that you are worried about Isabelle's death.
At the moment of the ritual, the emphasis is on how evil the ritual is, however, the narrator does not mention that releasing thousands of spawns puts thousands of people at risk. Living people. The narrator speaks negatively only about the ritual. Instead, they could show a neutral opinion, for example: "If you perform the ritual, then thousands of souls you have ruined will go to hell. But if you release them, thousands of people may suffer from their actions." The second is never mentioned, although later in the game it is shown that spawns do cause damage to living creatures. This dual position shows how the "negative" is shown only where it is convenient for them. And yes, I don't like it.
I'm saying this because that's why Ascended Astarion fans found themselves in such a position. Whoever wrote the game doesn't seem to consider the possibility that your character might be evil. Or they considers it, but from the position of "you feel guilty for this", "you should be unhappy", "we will teach you a lesson for this choice."
It's like we're not playing a game for the sake of a moral lesson. Why give a choice in this case. Like it doesn't even concern only Astarion, but the whole evil route. If you give people a path to choose from, you should please them equally on both paths, not punish them. No player wants to be punished during the game. Then who would even want to play for evil? Like you get nothing but a salty taste in your mouth and insults.
We need kiss animations at the party and the option to tell him we love him (Id accept it at the party but Id love to see an option for us to say it after he turns the MC too, if romanced).
Just because its his evil ending doesnt mean my MC doesnt love AA any less than as a spawn. This whole trope of you cant love him now, hes evil, is such bad quality writing, imo. You have the option to go through with the ritual and commit 100% to the outcome of it.
And I love AAs new zest; his passion and possessiveness tick all the right boxes and our MC should have the option to be just as passionate and possessive too.
Think about this. You can play as an evil character, but when leaving Dark Lands, narrator will still say that you are sorry you did not remove the curse. You can remain an evil durge by refusing to accept Bhaal and choosing the option "I'm still evil." But at the end of the game, the narrator will tell you that you are worried about Isabelle's death.
At the moment of the ritual, the emphasis is on how evil the ritual is, however, the narrator does not mention that releasing thousands of spawns puts thousands of people at risk. Living people. The narrator speaks negatively only about the ritual. Instead, they could show a neutral opinion, for example: "If you perform the ritual, then thousands of souls you have ruined will go to hell. But if you release them, thousands of people may suffer from their actions." The second is never mentioned, although later in the game it is shown that spawns do cause damage to living creatures. This dual position shows how the "negative" is shown only where it is convenient for them. And yes, I don't like it.
I'm saying this because that's why Ascended Astarion fans found themselves in such a position. Whoever wrote the game doesn't seem to consider the possibility that your character might be evil. Or they considers it, but from the position of "you feel guilty for this", "you should be unhappy", "we will teach you a lesson for this choice."
It's like we're not playing a game for the sake of a moral lesson. Why give a choice in this case. Like it doesn't even concern only Astarion, but the whole evil route. If you give people a path to choose from, you should please them equally on both paths, not punish them. No player wants to be punished during the game. Then who would even want to play for evil? Like you get nothing but a salty taste in your mouth and insults.
You can choose to kill them even if you don't do the ritual. Or just leave them locked up.
But yeah, the evil route in this game is shit. The ending narration especially doesn't fit if you destroy the brain. Like, I didn't do it to save the city. I did it because I don't want a tentacle infestation in a city I'm planning to rule.
The game does a great job of providing dialogue paths for those who want to tell the story where their character has buyer's remorse and is essentially trapped in the relationship. I like these options, because it is definitely a valid narrative arc to pursue.
What's lacking is the content for anyone who decides they made a good bargain and are happy with the arrangement, conditions and all. Which I strongly believe is also a fair perspective to have on how matters play out. The conversation prior to be turned isn't particularly subtle. I think it's made clear what the main character is getting and what it will cost them, so if they choose it they're not necessarily being duped or manipulated.
I'd actually be happy with a scenario where they add a kiss, but it feels transactional. For example, as a reward for actually going out and gathering a juicy tidbit of gossip from one of your companions. A bit more dialogue wouldn't go amiss either, perhaps reminiscing about one of the parties you hosted together and how tame this one is in comparison.
I agree, somehow the writers seem to have decided for us that if you choose to Ascend Astarion than your character can't possibly love him. The question of whether an Ascended Astarion can return that love is an entirely separate issue. I think it's perfectly legitimate for Tav to have fallen in love with the darker side of Astarion's character from the start, and to prefer that aspect of him. This is roleplay. Characters should be able to have any number of motives driving them, pure and otherwise.
I really hate it they decided this for us. It's also unfair since apparently Durge can properly express their feelings for him during their own story, but not Tav. There are enough examples in the game that he does in fact return the love. It's just not the same puppy love like in Spawn Astarion path, but something darker. This is exactly how I roleplayed my Seldarine chaotic neutral drow who was trying to get away from the stereotypical evil drow character and create a new life on the surface for herself away from Lolth fanatics, but she still had that darkness inside her (life in the Underdark took a toll on her) that Astarion reignited and kept progressively stoking, until the ritual happened and there was no going back anymore. In fact, she was into him even more when he ascended. The confidence he gains is amazing and very appealing! From that moment on it's always 'we' and 'us' and I love that detail. In the end they both embraced their dark desires. And corrupted Gale in the process too, who even admitted he learned to enjoy the chaos, haha.
Originally Posted by melgreg
Yes, it's clear that Tav will never be an equal in Ascended Astarion's eyes, and they will never be free from him. Neither of those things suggest to me that the relationship would be passionless. To the contrary, a lot of his comments suggest that there's a great deal of attraction.
There's definitely a lot of attraction there. The game shows multiple times that he really enjoys being in the dominant position, so I'd say that the power dynamic actually adds to the passion.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I think writers in this case do not like to write evil at all, because even in Durge preview, the introduction is "I have to get rid of dark impulses", and not "I have to figure this out" or "accept dark impulses". That is, the game automatically directs you to "fix" something. I have a lot of problems with any evil and morally questionable action in the game. The fact that evil players were deprived of content and were not given variably evil endings (for example rule with Gortash) shows.
Yeah, that is really crappy and shows they have a clear preference and want to steer the narrative according to it. I went for rule with Gortash option and was very disappointed how it panned out. I really wanted to see more of him, more political drama and how it affected the city.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
In early access, I expected Astarion to be some kind of villain who would burn down cities for you. But they did everything completely differently and presented it as "not freedom." (...) Like, I don't want to fix villains and turn them into the likeness of heroes. I want my characters to be evil couples! When they burn the world down for each other. Is it really that difficult?
I'm sad they almost completely cut his magistrate background. I also don't want to fix them, because I often prefer villains in fiction. Goody-two-shoes characters just bore me these days. I wish we saw more of the evil couple dynamics.
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
Astarion has an unfair amount of content that you only get if you play as Karlach, which in my case is never. That kiss really should be available for Tav/Durge. It's beautiful.
I second that. It's just wasteful that the companion for who it makes no sense to end up with him actually has the hottest kiss. I wouldn't mind if they changed it and kept the newly added kiss for Spawnstarion and gave this one to the Ascendant.
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
I imagine if the upper city had made it into the game, both versions of Astarion would've been better. And could cause some actual chaos.
At the moment of the ritual, the emphasis is on how evil the ritual is, however, the narrator does not mention that releasing thousands of spawns puts thousands of people at risk. Living people. The narrator speaks negatively only about the ritual. Instead, they could show a neutral opinion, for example: "If you perform the ritual, then thousands of souls you have ruined will go to hell. But if you release them, thousands of people may suffer from their actions." The second is never mentioned, although later in the game it is shown that spawns do cause damage to living creatures. This dual position shows how the "negative" is shown only where it is convenient for them. And yes, I don't like it. I'm saying this because that's why Ascended Astarion fans found themselves in such a position. Whoever wrote the game doesn't seem to consider the possibility that your character might be evil. Or they considers it, but from the position of "you feel guilty for this", "you should be unhappy", "we will teach you a lesson for this choice."
This would have been so much better than what we got! Totally agree with your comments about how the evil path is shafted. I keep the moralisers of the team at camp and hang out with the pragmatists capable of seeing shades of grey. I don't need the game itself trying to make me feel bad when I'm enjoying myself.
Originally Posted by Darkangel1211
Just because its his evil ending doesnt mean my MC doesnt love AA any less than as a spawn. This whole trope of you cant love him now, hes evil, is such bad quality writing, imo. You have the option to go through with the ritual and commit 100% to the outcome of it.
Exactly! If we can fully commit to it why can't we say nice things to back it up?
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
Like, I didn't do it to save the city. I did it because I don't want a tentacle infestation in a city I'm planning to rule.
I did it because it seemed too risky to dominate it when that bugger already showed it had a lot of tricks up its sleeve, and I was SO tired of hearing its annoying, agitated voice. I just wanted to see it dead and to shut up forever. Same with the Emperor. Finally be free of the tentacle nonsense and have a nice, decadent life with Astarion.
Originally Posted by melgreg
A bit more dialogue wouldn't go amiss either, perhaps reminiscing about one of the parties you hosted together and how tame this one is in comparison.
He actually talks about it in banter. He says: 'This is nice. A little tame compared to one of my parties, but it has a quaint charm.' I think he could suggest a private afterparty in the clearing for old times' sake.
I'm not giving up hope for an epilogue kiss just yet. We know Larian is still working on kissing animations, and that Astarion's have been bugged previously. If they had one, but it wasn't working properly, I can imagine Larian just setting that content to the side for now in order to ship the epilogue out. Something like that would also explain why Astarion's epilogue content seems somewhat lacking in general (for both spawn and Ascendant) when compared to the other companions. They would have needed to snip any dialogue pathways leading up to a kiss.
Even Spawn doesn't have a kiss, just a hug whereas from what you've said other companions have BOTH kiss and hug options
Not all of them have both hug and kiss options, though Gale, Karlach, Shadowheart, Halsin and Minthara can also be hugged as friends. I edited my inital post listing all epilogue interactions because I just saw that romanced Lae'zel in projection form can still be snogged. Wyll's smooch doesn't involve physical contact, but it's still some form of this type of affection. Astarion is literally the ONLY LI that doesn't have any kiss at the party!
Recently, I was also talking about the act 1 bite night how there is no option to actually enjoy Astarion nibbling on us (despite being able to tell him later that we did) and the animation only shows Tav being in pain. There's a vid of the scene with new camera angles and it shows even better how Tav is clearly struggling and likely just waiting for it to be over. Like it's a visit at the dentist or something.
Again, according to Larian, this is supposed to be the starting point of the romance, but there is nothing remotely romantic about it. Since they just modified the act 1 sex scene I want them to revisit this one as well and add a more intimate variation that we can select.
That whole scene is stupid. As if the smartest way to feed a starving vampire you met a few days ago is to lie down completely defenseless and bare your neck for him. And then if you change your mind you literally pull a stake out of your ass. And successfully stab a dude while barely being able to stand.
Having a more intimate variation would also be hilarious when you don't stop him from drinking you dry. Imagine having to talk to him in the morning after you let him kill you because you...were distracted.
Since they just modified the act 1 sex scene I want them to revisit this one as well and add a more intimate variation that we can select.
As nice as this would be, I wouldn't hold my breath. Most cutscenes have one set of reaction, no matter what your character says or does. For example in the scene with the hyena birthing the gnoll when you are durge, the narrator explains how giddy you are about the smell of blood and offal, while the animation shows our character retching. Or in scenes where you can draw your weapon in dialogue but the character does not do it in the animation. At the end of the bite scene you can tell Astarion that you look forward to watching him fight while the character looks after him in a mixture of disgust and consternation.
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
Having a more intimate variation would also be hilarious when you don't stop him from drinking you dry. Imagine having to talk to him in the morning after you let him kill you because you...were distracted.
That would indeed be hilarious (though I gotta admit unashamed that I do prefer to punch him for it)
Having a more intimate variation would also be hilarious when you don't stop him from drinking you dry. Imagine having to talk to him in the morning after you let him kill you because you...were distracted.
That would indeed be hilarious (though I gotta admit unashamed that I do prefer to punch him for it)
That punch would be a perfectly valid way to express your extreme embarrassment.
For the bite scene I honestly wonder which part, if any, was supposed to indicate that our character is kinda into this. The first "let him continue", because then you lean into him?
Having a more intimate variation would also be hilarious when you don't stop him from drinking you dry. Imagine having to talk to him in the morning after you let him kill you because you...were distracted.
That would indeed be hilarious (though I gotta admit unashamed that I do prefer to punch him for it)
That punch would be a perfectly valid way to express your extreme embarrassment.
For the bite scene I honestly wonder which part, if any, was supposed to indicate that our character is kinda into this. The first "let him continue", because then you lean into him?
That's how I always interpreted it and I think the narration reflects that with the "you lean into him losing yourself". And the first time I did that I of course rolled a critical failure on the following roll and died. So, I guess it indeed was a punch because of embarrassment after that.
I know you can die by failing rolls to stop Astarion from draining you. However, the game also provides two options that amount to let him keep going that also result in your characters death.
I really do think the game could distinguish a bit between these two paths. Since in one you really are letting him kill you, so being indignant about it is a little hypocritical. Really, darling? You seemed perfectly happy to die in my arms last night. Funny how I dont remember you asking me to stop.
That's how I always interpreted it and I think the narration reflects that with the "you lean into him losing yourself". And the first time I did that I of course rolled a critical failure on the following roll and died. So, I guess it indeed was a punch because of embarrassment after that.
Would make more sense if the option itself was "lean into him", not just do nothing. Because now you have no idea that this is what your character will do when you pick that the first time. (Especially with a Durge you can have other reasons)
Originally Posted by melgreg
I know you can die by failing rolls to stop Astarion from draining you. However, the game also provides two options that amount to let him keep going that also result in your characters death.
I really do think the game could distinguish a bit between these two paths. Since in one you really are letting him kill you, so being indignant about it is a little hypocritical. Really, darling? You seemed perfectly happy to die in my arms last night. Funny how I dont remember you asking me to stop.
Yeah if you just let him go on your death is just natural selection lol. But not many would admit that after being revived.
I know you can die by failing rolls to stop Astarion from draining you. However, the game also provides two options that amount to let him keep going that also result in your characters death.
I really do think the game could distinguish a bit between these two paths. Since in one you really are letting him kill you, so being indignant about it is a little hypocritical. Really, darling? You seemed perfectly happy to die in my arms last night. Funny how I dont remember you asking me to stop.
To be fair, not asking him to stop does not give him a carte blanche to kill you, so I don't think the game needs to distinguish between the two paths (though it'd be perfectly in character for him to cast the blame on you). He told you beforehand that it'd "only be a taste". The character was just stupid enough to trust the hungry vampire.
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
Would make more sense if the option itself was "lean into him", not just do nothing. Because now you have no idea that this is what your character will do when you pick that the first time. (Especially with a Durge you can have other reasons)
Agree, that would make it much clearer. But then people would whine again about the sexual undertones in case they just want to be nice and feed him out of friendship reasons...
To be fair, not asking him to stop does not give him a carte blanche to kill you, so I don't think the game needs to distinguish between the two paths (though it'd be perfectly in character for him to cast the blame on you). He told you beforehand that it'd "only be a taste". The character was just stupid enough to trust the hungry vampire.
Never trust someone who is doing something they've never done before and tell you they've got this.
Originally Posted by Veranis
Agree, that would make it much clearer. But then people would whine again about the sexual undertones in case they just want to be nice and feed him out of friendship reasons...
It could be both "lean into him" and "let him continue".
It could be both "lean into him" and "let him continue".
That's exactly what I would like to have in the game. Let him continue would be a neutral/friendly option, while lean into him would be more intimate with Tav doing something extra like grabbing his hair or putting their hand on his back, and Astarion getting more comfortable in turn. Tav should also stop wriggling about so much, they look like a dying fish moving their legs like that.
Btw, he had some new lines for his kisses in Patch 4 ("if you must" and something else), but the dialogue was bugged and when they fixed it I never heard them again. Do they ever trigger for anyone?
These lines seem to be gone for good now. 'If you must' was a very strange and cold line to get in response if you ask for a kiss, so it's good that they fixed it.
I've run across a video with epilogue outcomes for romanced and dumped spawn Astarion and there is something entirely unique in the one where
he was encouraged to seek out the other spawn in the Underdark and was broken up with afterwards.
In this epilogue he actually shares information with you that you cannot get in any other no ritual path. Scroll to minute 27:20 and he will tell you what happened to Cazador's Palace. It's a shame that none of it is mentioned if you stay together.
Would have been cool to hear about his and Tav's little pyromaniac adventure from the narrator and have them reminisce about it during the party.
I've read that the mortal Tav ending with AA is somewhat lacking but haven't seen mentions of all the details related to it. Now that there is an actual video about it, I will put it here as a source of reference because this outcome needs improvements as well.
Tav who asked to be turned into a vampire but then changed their mind during the conversation with Astarion should either still be mortal and Astarion could potentially be a bit annoyed about it or they should be a vampire already like they are now, but there needs to be a mention (by the narrator in the opening of the scene would make most sense) what exactly happened there and why Tav changed their mind. If Tav never asked to be a vampire and they actually aren't one in that scene then Astarion's dialogue needs to be different.
Also, I'm pleased that it was officially confirmed in an interview that AA is still the original Astarion and that the ritual doesn't magically change who he fundamentally is as a person (other than alters his body and gives him new abilities), and that he simply embraces his darker personality traits once he feels powerful.
I still think/hope something got mixed up in his romanced dialogue at the party in general. You can for example always tell Minsc that you and Astarion are looking for a cure for him, no matter if you chose the ending specific to finding a way to walk in the sun or not. Otoh if you chose the "we should settle down" path, this does not get reflected by the narration at all.
As for bite night. It is weirdly hilarious that if you play as the nuke, you do get to make fun of him a little if he insists on drinking from you despite already knowing about the orb and warning him off, but you still have the option to let him nibble from you in nights to come. Especially since when discussing the vintages of the party members later on, the dialogue was modified and instead of confessing the PC was his first, he is salty and once again complains about how Gale's taste has put him off of his blood.
Speaking of Gale... when he's encouraged to retrieve the crown and Tav is with AA, I find it interesting how at the end of the game
he still seems to have feelings for Tav (if you sorta or fully romanced him but then rejected him) and even tells you that if you ever felt differently, then there would be a place in the heavens for you with him. Then in the epilogue, he is the only one who acknowledges that you're a vampire and tells you that you both have eternity to catch up with each other. He also implies that you might be able to ascend one day if you're ambitious enough. To me it seems like he's still thinking about Tav and maybe one day he could even offer to whisk them away to Elysium if they spent more time together. Rather funny that he's cheeky enough to say such things with Astarion nearby, likely listening in with his heightened senses. And then Astarion says he almost wishes that someone would get in his and your way to have a fun challenge. Like... didn't just Gale make ambiguous suggestions, darling? I also heard that in dev notes it is said that AA is jealous of Gale reaching godhood. Looks like a potential for angst and drama, with Tav also having a way to escape from Astarion if they're being roleplayed as trapped in the relationship.
Another thing, when we kill Cazador without Astarion in the party, and when he tries to dump Tav for doing it, he cannot actually do it (like Tav cannot leave AA). The romance also gets very buggy, especially at the end of the game. Larian please look into it.
Speaking of Gale... when he's encouraged to retrieve the crown and Tav is with AA, I find it interesting how at the end of the game
Oh dear ... I mean, ambition, right? XD My play-throughs are entirely too wholesome for such revelations it seems. Btw ...
Did you snack on God-Gale? Mystra did a poor job curing human Gale, his blood is still poisonous at the party - and Withers brought only wine.
I was also surprised that finding a way to allow Spawnstarion to walk in the sun again turned into curing vampirism. I thought, we'd find him a fancy ring or something less drastic.
Did you snack on God-Gale? Mystra did a poor job curing human Gale, his blood is still poisonous at the party - and Withers brought only wine.
I checked it now. It's still vile. He said 'Careful!' to me.
Originally Posted by Anska
I was also surprised that finding a way to allow Spawnstarion to walk in the sun again turned into curing vampirism. I thought, we'd find him a fancy ring or something less drastic.
It is strange indeed, especially since there is no conversation before that if he'd ever want to cure vampirism. The cure comes out of nowhere. It seems like the majority of epilogue decisions are hand-waved. Just like you cannot settle down with Spawnstarion, you also cannot travel with AA.
Still wondering why Astairon chose to remain a mere Spawn when he could've became a True Vampire just by drinking Cazador's blood, it might not be Ascension, but it's still a step up from a Spawn at least, like a nice middle ground, you know
I was also surprised that finding a way to allow Spawnstarion to walk in the sun again turned into curing vampirism. I thought, we'd find him a fancy ring or something less drastic.
It is strange indeed, especially since there is no conversation before that if he'd ever want to cure vampirism. The cure comes out of nowhere. It seems like the majority of epilogue decisions are hand-waved. Just like you cannot settle down with Spawnstarion, you also cannot travel with AA.
The way Astarion talks about vampirism (my affliction) and that he took Cazador's offer only because the alternative was to bleed to death, made me always think he'd prefer to not be a vampire. At least I cannot recall him ever talking positive about being a vampire. To me, 'find a way to walk in the sun' was a euphemism for 'find a cure for vampirism' all along.
The way Astarion talks about vampirism (my affliction) and that he took Cazador's offer only because the alternative was to bleed to death, made me always think he'd prefer to not be a vampire. At least I cannot recall him ever talking positive about being a vampire. To me, 'find a way to walk in the sun' was a euphemism for 'find a cure for vampirism' all along.
Could be, then again he seems to be pretty ok with it during his friendly epilogue conversation and faced with the astral tadpole, he says that he never wants to change into anything else again either. I don't rule it out, that he might want to cure vampirism but it would be nice to talk about it and hear his opinion on the matter.
Still wondering why Astairon chose to remain a mere Spawn when he could've became a True Vampire just by drinking Cazador's blood, it might not be Ascension, but it's still a step up from a Spawn at least, like a nice middle ground, you know
Cazador would have had to agree to let Astarion drink his blood for Astarion to become a true vampire. Or so Astarion believes. It's entirely possible this is something that is tied to the vampire's control over their spawn (they can't bite their master without permission), and Astarion could've forced it by just draining Cazador, but he doesn't think it would work, and the game doesn't work that way (if you ascend Astarion, let him turn you and then bite him, you won't become a true vampire for example).
So it's not so much that Astarion chose to remain a spawn instead of becoming a true vampire, it's that (he believes, possibly incorrectly) his only choices were remaining a spawn or ascending, and you convinced him not to ascend.
I was also surprised that finding a way to allow Spawnstarion to walk in the sun again turned into curing vampirism. I thought, we'd find him a fancy ring or something less drastic.
It is strange indeed, especially since there is no conversation before that if he'd ever want to cure vampirism. The cure comes out of nowhere. It seems like the majority of epilogue decisions are hand-waved. Just like you cannot settle down with Spawnstarion, you also cannot travel with AA.
The way Astarion talks about vampirism (my affliction) and that he took Cazador's offer only because the alternative was to bleed to death, made me always think he'd prefer to not be a vampire. At least I cannot recall him ever talking positive about being a vampire. To me, 'find a way to walk in the sun' was a euphemism for 'find a cure for vampirism' all along.
The artbook said that he was looking for eternal life. In Jaheira's quest, he will also say that immortality is hard to resist. I think his story should have been a little different. Now it's hard to say whether he wanted it or not.
The artbook said that he was looking for eternal life. In Jaheira's quest, he will also say that immortality is hard to resist. I think his story should have been a little different. Now it's hard to say whether he wanted it or not.
The artbook was created way before BG3 released and a lot was changed or removed back then. Thus I'd have a hard time to see it as canon. Going to do Jaheira's quest again soon, I might have overheard it the first time. Thanks for pointing it out, I'm going to make sure to pay attention.
I'm not saying, my opinion is the only correct way to see it. Just voiced my personal thoughts about it.
I would like if romance with Ascended Astarion to be like this...
They're both happy. I don't know why writers decided to use some kind of image "abusive asshole" and "his victim" While these are card from MTG and it clearly show that DnD vampires can be happy together. I don't understand why the "realism of toxic relationships" didn't work with Minthara, whose relationship is also unhealthy, but it worked with Astarion. It's terribly disappointing.
Cazador would have had to agree to let Astarion drink his blood for Astarion to become a true vampire. Or so Astarion believes. It's entirely possible this is something that is tied to the vampire's control over their spawn (they can't bite their master without permission), and Astarion could've forced it by just draining Cazador, but he doesn't think it would work, and the game doesn't work that way (if you ascend Astarion, let him turn you and then bite him, you won't become a true vampire for example).
It's possible that Astarion doesn't give the player all the information about the change into a true vampire either, only the short, simplified version. Currently, it looks like a plothole and I wish it was addressed and clarified how it works exactly. Since we can only make assumptions, I believe that he does not only need to drink the blood, but also be given permission to actually drink it with the purpose of becoming free and the vampire lord consensually relinquishing control of the spawn in the process of being drained. This would explain why Tav can bite Astarion for sustenance or intimacy but won't stop being a spawn.
I also don't believe he really doesn't remember anything from his life as a mortal - Cazador being there at the moment of his demise is very convenient and although the artbook might be outdated, I still think he was involved in some shady stuff that involved vampires, and just doesn't want Tav to know about it, so they're more willing to help him out and be sympathetic to his cause. But that's a whole different topic altogether.
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I would like if romance with Ascended Astarion to be like this...
They're both happy. I don't know why writers decided to use some kind of image "abusive asshole" and "his victim" While these are card from MTG and it clearly show that DnD vampires can be happy together. I don't understand why the "realism of toxic relationships" didn't work with Minthara, whose relationship is also unhealthy, but it worked with Astarion. It's terribly disappointing.
MTG has some really amazing artwork when it comes to vampires, and it's how I imagine this couple to be like. I don't care that the writers hate AA, I will still roleplay the relationship as happy and harmonic, as much as the game allows me to. My Tav went into it knowing exactly what she was agreeing to, down to sensing his bs about willing to turn her into a true vampire later ('trust me, it doesn't happen' line is quite memorable after all). She gave Astarion everything and he gave her everything she wanted in turn. At least I can call him 'my love' as his spawn now.
The artbook said that he was looking for eternal life. In Jaheira's quest, he will also say that immortality is hard to resist. I think his story should have been a little different. Now it's hard to say whether he wanted it or not.
Personally when it comes to enternal life, Vampirism is still better than the alternative
I was more confused by the fact that Tav has expensive clothes, but Astarion does not. xD
This. Especially since my "Tav" in question was Gale, who apparently taken to knitting now - and I'd assume him to be the type of knitter who makes highly elaborate lace knits that he the showers on the family. ^^
I guess they were going for nostalgia with his EA outfit?
Rather funny that he looks fancier and more elegant after being abducted by aliens and having crash landed on a beach, than at a reunion party where everyone's trying to look good.
I think they just couldn't be bothered to make a new one because they already had that one. I wish they had given him something more interesting at least for the ending where he goes to the Underdark. Drow armors look so good on him.
I think they just couldn't be bothered to make a new one because they already had that one. I wish they had given him something more interesting at least for the ending where he goes to the Underdark. Drow armors look so good on him.
I think all of them wear outfits that are supposed to reflect their standard friendly paths of life - though why Cazador-alive-Spawnstarion and Adventurer-Spawnstarion wear the same stuff, I don't know. The description makes most sense for someone on the road with the repaired shoes and all.
I wish they had given him something more interesting at least for the ending where he goes to the Underdark. Drow armors look so good on him.
Originally Posted by Anska
I think all of them wear outfits that are supposed to reflect their standard friendly paths of life - though why Cazador-alive-Spawnstarion and Adventurer-Spawnstarion wear the same stuff, I don't know. The description makes most sense for someone on the road with the repaired shoes and all.
It would be cool if they gave him different outfits for these outcomes. Wyll for example has a different look when he's a ranger, comes back from Avernus and is a Grand Duke.
I thought about making the post more detailed, but that will probably be in the spring. Poor English, I tried my best with DeepL translator.
15. More love for the Ascended Astarion - indeed!
Such a dark, deep character and love line just can't be found nowadays. Well, not unless it's Japanese. Big-big Monopolist in this niche. A charming medieval Dark Fantasy set in the world of Faerun. Lord Astarion It's still Astarion, the culmination of his dark desires that have been with him always.
I hope if there is any content, it keeps the complexity of the dark romance, like possessiveness, but real caring, love-obsession. The art and charm of Dark Romance is very subtle, it needs balance.
Everyone plays Tav\Durage differently. If toxicity realism should work, Astarion on the beach at the beginning too - huge, red as a tomato But we have a whole love plot with him.
I'm glad that it is possible play the dynamic of two villains\just two darkly in love, who are on the same page and\or who are mutually obsessed with each other, who have incredibly strong feelings for each other. Such a concept is already in DnD for vampires. I wish there was more of that. A lot of guys and girls adore Minthara so much too.
Not sequels I think, but within the story, improvements. The epilogue was a good, after adding the hug\kiss it will be a great.
The Magistrate's past
Revealing Astarion's evil past as a Magistrate, which will make his story deeper and give a better understanding of the character. This will be especially interesting for the path of evil. Honestly, for me, his story doesn't work very well without it. I wish his quest had been deeper anyway, with complex morally gray issues. I'm only hoping for the dusty pages. In Cazador's safe\in a castle\somewhere that he kept as a keepsake because he was obsessed with Astarion, that little detail about his past made him laugh. Or any other way.
It also has romantic potential. If you add dialog that the player found out about it and decided to tell Astarion. I think there should be several versions here - before the ritual, Lord and Spawn. I'd like to answer in all cases: "I see and it doesn't change things. I love you". There should also be an option to reject the relationship, even the option to read Astarion's mind, his thoughts.
Early Access
And I'm just going to ask for scenes back from EA that literally change nothing about the character's understanding, only expand on it, and do it perfectly. I haven't played EA, but I understood Astarion like I did. Then I found the EA scenes. A completely harmless (well, when we're talking about Astarion ThInG) scene-talking after the barn, or after Mayrina. Maybe the scene in the mushroom colony, but um-m even it didn't surprise me. So to see these great tiny scenes in the definitive edition, for example, would be wonderful.
4. Reactions to races and classes. How true what you said about the races! The reactions of all companions to certain races is what I want.
I play as a half elf and even the magic mirror said "My master is no filthy half-breed". Lae'zel: Mark my word: The half-elf's an abyss of lies and secrets. 'Shadowheart' indeed I love Faerun, it's so... edgy :>
Half-Elves are actually different in personalities, there is a rumor about them that they are friendly, "welcome everywhere, but struggle without a community to call their own". True, incidents of racism against half elves seem to be pretty rare.
I wonder what Astarion thinks of this. He's a high elf. And he's pretty edgy too. How does he feel about half-elves does he have prejudices? Depending on approval, let's say. I also play good, so it's great to hear from Astarion: "You're so... diplomatic because of your origin, or you just silly. That's good for me, but could you not get too into it much" kind of thing would be fun. I wouldn't even be surprised he says if Tav do something ~that Astarion approves ~ "I thought half-elves could only strum a lute"\"For a little half elf girl/boy, you have incredible promise". Or when a player does something risky\strange out of sheer curiosity (half-elf trait): If he likes "Your blood calls you to new experiences", If he doesn't like: "Your curious little half-elvish nose might get bitten some day".
And the Drow - they have such a rich lore! Globally, I could see people not being very happy that by Act 3, whether you're a Drow or not doesn't mean much. So, I hope details will be added.
9. The talk after the Ascension has so much potential.
I understand if Astarion ends the relationship if we don't want to become his completely. It shows perfectly that he's a love-control fella. It makes sense - Tav\Durage is the first person in his life he can trust, who is dear to him - he doesn't want to let go of someone like that, ever.
However, we have a mortal ending where he's at ease that Tav doesn't want that yet. I think we should add the "conviction" to wait with this, which may or may not be successful. I'd also like the use of charisma in this situation. This piece will connect the mortal end too. Of course, that should affect the epilogue.
The mortal ending in the epilogue will definitely improve. If you don't mention vampirism at all Tav is still mortal in the epilogue. It should all be with dialog, references, at least to the narrator. I think Astarion's answers should be detailed depending on the player's race. Astarion can apparently appease his yandere-thing, but it's there. Makes sense he's a vampire, his vampire-love belongs to Tav and it's a dark romance. If the player is an elf Astarion's calmness is understandable, they live so long and are long young. If Tav's life isn't that long, Astarion can show genuine worry that she'll be gone someday and he just won't accept it. It's wild, but suddenly it can be added, after the dialog at the party where Tav agreed to become immortal, after the toast, Cutscene as Astarion bites her. But that's already a global expansion of the epilogue. I think such a dialog with mortal Tav is not really suitable for the epilogue, there is more fanservice, and this conversation can be serious. It's a celebratory atmosphere and this silly couple just Where it will be possible to play the breakup\conviction\agreement. So, I have nothing against just small details, that will simply connect the pieces.
Let's go back to the scene after the ascension.
So It's understandable why relationships end when he's rejected. It's not clear why the relationship ends when player refuses to "get on knees". It's a bit odd and unrealistic considering that he reacts to the freedom-seeking Tav quite calmly in the epilogue. The act of domination he desires is clear: however, if the player agrees to take the gift of eternity and be bound to Astarion forever - that means more kneeling and should be enough, it's giving him everything.
What kind of special vampire tradition is that? It could be. But the player has too many bonds to Astarion, and after a while is chilly to even turning, not to mention kneeling. Astarion loves the knee-thing so much that if the player doesn't, he's alienating the man who cares for him for the first time in 200 years? I insist there has to be "conviction", "charisma", are the options here, to kind of calm his fire a little bit, and if it fails, it's either yes or no.
Ahem, and speaking of the Drow Supremacy. They have a very strong matriarchy. Astarion has ascended, has not forgotten the history of Faerun. He offers to kneel to a Drow woman. 99% she has to refuse, well 90%, and his response is only seen to me as "I had to try, okay" (assuming she agrees to the rest). And if the Drow woman agrees Astarion will probably make one of the most satisfied faces he can.
Speaking of the Bard. There's no way the Bard wouldn't make a joke\something playful about this. (during the scene and the morning after). The universe is almost collapsing, there's no Bard-joke on that in the game. And I wish Astarion actually liked the joke (or there were two of them). Also of course we have the companions' reactions to Tav's spawn in little small talk. But I would like full dialogs with everyone. And then talk to Astarion about it and just there the potential for dialog, and for Bard jokes is huge too.
It's a quirk of mine in general, I'd like to see Lord Astarion truly satisfied. He's like a beloved well-fed lion.
A New Year is coming, I wish Larian success and all the best.
Thank you so much, Ametris, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
I really really wish people would quit the whole bad vs good BS narrative. He is morally grey. Either way, he chooses, Ascended or Not. He is a complete whole person and he has a personality that is unique to him. No ritual will change that. He is not a TRUE VAMPIRE, he is the Vampire Ascendant. He has elvish feelings just like before the ritual. He has all the urges of any male elf, whichever path he chooses. This debate needs to stop because all of that is still in that one elf's body. Regardless of what one side thinks or not. Period. No one gets over trauma in a day, I do not care what anyone thinks about that. It is a lifetime of working on it. Even Larian stated that Ascended Astarion is still Astarion. He is not like a true vampire. He is the one and ONLY Vampire Ascendant. (This does not EXIST in DnD, nor in their books, nor in their lore, nor anywhere!!!!!! GET OVER IT!!!!)
Those of us who Ascended Him are ACTUALLY IN LOVE WITH HIM just as much as those who did not. There is no difference. Relationships are hard and take work, especially with people who have an ego the size of our beautiful elf. He does not like everyone to know about his business. He is secretive with everyone except Tav because he never had someone to confide in, EVER. He was an elf teenager when he died, so he needs time to grow up. That takes a while as well. Plus he is also mischievous, so that is also something that a lot of people do not understand a lot of the time.
This is also how I think of the relationship as well:
Originally Posted by Nyloth
I would like if romance with Ascended Astarion to be like this...
They're both happy. I don't know why writers decided to use some kind of image "abusive asshole" and "his victim" While these are cards from MTG and it clearly shows that DnD vampires can be happy together. I don't understand why the "realism of toxic relationships" didn't work with Minthara, whose relationship is also unhealthy, but it worked with Astarion. It's terribly disappointing.
Beautifully done with that amazing card Nyloth. Anyways, at least Larian gave us a mostly better romance with a vampire and quit trying to turn it into a damn Twilight type of fest. I wanted a Dracula, Lestat, Eric Northman, Straud type of romance. Worthy of DnD and worthy of a vampire. And worthy of an 18+ game. Now if they can top it, I will be happier. And I want to be able to run after him if he is not ascended. Screw Karlach. He is my chosen. Not her. But for the love of the GODS, stop with this bad vs good BS...................PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is a whole entire flushed-out elf and story to boot.
I really really wish people would quit the whole bad vs good BS narrative. He is morally grey. Either way, he chooses, Ascended or Not. He is a complete whole person and he has a personality that is unique to him. No ritual will change that. He is not a TRUE VAMPIRE, he is the Vampire Ascendant. He has elvish feelings just like before the ritual. He has all the urges of any male elf, whichever path he chooses. This debate needs to stop because all of that is still in that one elf's body. Regardless of what one side thinks or not. Period. No one gets over trauma in a day, I do not care what anyone thinks about that. It is a lifetime of working on it. Even Larian stated that Ascended Astarion is still Astarion. He is not like a true vampire. He is the one and ONLY Vampire Ascendant. (This does not EXIST in DnD, nor in their books, nor in their lore, nor anywhere!!!!!! GET OVER IT!!!!)
Those of us who Ascended Him are ACTUALLY IN LOVE WITH HIM just as much as those who did not. There is no difference. Relationships are hard and take work, especially with people who have an ego the size of our beautiful elf. He does not like everyone to know about his business. He is secretive with everyone except Tav because he never had someone to confide in, EVER. He was an elf teenager when he died, so he needs time to grow up. That takes a while as well. Plus he is also mischievous, so that is also something that a lot of people do not understand a lot of the time.
Beautifully done with that amazing card Nyloth. Anyways, at least Larian gave us a mostly better romance with a vampire and quit trying to turn it into a damn Twilight type of fest. I wanted a Dracula, Lestat, Eric Northman, Straud type of romance. Worthy of DnD and worthy of a vampire. And worthy of an 18+ game. Now if they can top it, I will be happier. And I want to be able to run after him if he is not ascended. Screw Karlach. He is my chosen. Not her. But for the love of the GODS, stop with this bad vs good BS...................PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is a whole entire flushed-out elf and story to boot.
If you're talking about Strahd, that's a bad example, I personally wouldn't want to see something similar. All because Strahd's relationships are more built on unrequited love, and I'm tired of this hackneyed cliché that if a character is evil, it's impossible to love him. However, I like Lestat's dynamic because despite all his selfishness and hysterical behavior he was able to show feelings for both vampires and mortals. And really bonded with them.
Revealing Astarion's evil past as a Magistrate, which will make his story deeper and give a better understanding of the character. This will be especially interesting for the path of evil. Honestly, for me, his story doesn't work very well without it. I wish his quest had been deeper anyway, with complex morally gray issues. I'm only hoping for the dusty pages. In Cazador's safe\in a castle\somewhere that he kept as a keepsake because he was obsessed with Astarion, that little detail about his past made him laugh. Or any other way.
It also has romantic potential. If you add dialog that the player found out about it and decided to tell Astarion. I think there should be several versions here - before the ritual, Lord and Spawn. I'd like to answer in all cases: "I see and it doesn't change things. I love you". There should also be an option to reject the relationship, even the option to read Astarion's mind, his thoughts.
I've been thinking about a potential scenario like this too and would love to have this in the game! I can only imagine the tough conversation with Tav and him having to admit that he'd manipulated them into helping him out and if they'd known about his past, they'd have looked at him differently.
Originally Posted by LiryFire
Early Access
And I'm just going to ask for scenes back from EA that literally change nothing about the character's understanding, only expand on it, and do it perfectly. I haven't played EA, but I understood Astarion like I did. Then I found the EA scenes. A completely harmless (well, when we're talking about Astarion ThInG) scene-talking after the barn, or after Mayrina. Maybe the scene in the mushroom colony, but um-m even it didn't surprise me. So to see these great tiny scenes in the definitive edition, for example, would be wonderful.
I bought the game in EA but didn't play it then and now you got me curious. I'll have to check these scenes out.
Originally Posted by LiryFire
Let's go back to the scene after the ascension.
So It's understandable why relationships end when he's rejected. It's not clear why the relationship ends when player refuses to "get on knees".
This scene looks kind of like a joke to me. 'No', 'Yes', 'No', 'K bye then!' I think they should get into a proper, angsty discussion there.
As for his motivation - I think there are multiple reasons. He's still so high on the power from the ritual that he's doing it for his own pleasure to fulfill his domination kink. Also as a way to test the water to see if Tav would be obedient and to set the mood for the relationship going forward. Moreover, since he's making it clear that he wants to be the dominant one, it seems to be his way to bring Tav down to his level and a display of full acceptance of him. He still sees them as a better person than he is (the insight check about degradation, which actually talks about continuing the relationship with him). When he admits he wants what's best for Tav too he's clearly lying, because he believes that for them it is to be with another - someone nicer and not a monster like him, who'd manipulated them from the start and possibly even groomed them to join the dark side. If he's to be Tav's lord, they cannot be better than him, equal at best. Thus, it's a small act that actually has a lot of meaning to him, and if Tav doesn't humour him, then they reject the whole premise of their relationship as two vampires.
Originally Posted by LiryFire
Ahem, and speaking of the Drow Supremacy. They have a very strong matriarchy. Astarion has ascended, has not forgotten the history of Faerun. He offers to kneel to a Drow woman. 99% she has to refuse, well 90%, and his response is only seen to me as "I had to try, okay" (assuming she agrees to the rest). And if the Drow woman agrees Astarion will probably make one of the most satisfied faces he can.
I think he should always force it, even more so with a drow female for the extra smug satisfaction. He could even make a chuffed remark about it to give playing a drow something unique.
Originally Posted by LiryFire
Thank you so much, Ametris, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Thank you too, LiryFire! Enjoy these days as well!
In the way I meant it was by being a vampire, not in a twilight-sparkling manner. Not their individual ways of treatment or selective manners. I was just giving examples of vampires that have a personality that is more akin towards the types of what I am thinking. If you don't like Straud, then strike him off the list. But he is better than a sparkles boy.
I have a few more suggestions and concerns I'd like to mention.
1. During the bite night scene when you let Astarion drink more, Tav doesn't have a bleeding neck, like they do after using the first persuasion check, so it's clearly a bug.
2. Why is there no explanation why Astarion thinks biting an elf during their trance is a good idea? From what I've read elves are fully aware of their surroundings while in that state, so of course they'd sense his presence and confront him. I know he at least has a poor excuse in Karlach's case that he's so hungry that he conveniently forgot about her untouchable condition.
3. I've mentioned it already in a couple of threads, and I'll mention it here too: I would love there to be a scene before the point of no return where you spend some time together with your partner, comment on your journey so far and prepare for what's to come. It's just strange and sad there are no camp events after completing your LI's story. With the Ascendant we could go to the Crimson Palace and start making plans for the future, talk about redecorating the interior, etc. With Spawn Astarion we could go watch the sunset or sunrise together, like it was suggested by Hula Noob in their thread in the feedback forum.
4. As was discussed in another thread too, when Ascended Astarion urges you to
take control in the ending choice, we should have an opportunity to have a short discussion with him about it to let him know what we are planning to do. Likewise, I'd like there to be another one in the epilogue where we talk about the aftermath. Right now, it looks very awkward that he asks us to do something, we don't communicate with him, do the opposite and he has nothing to say about it afterwards. He completely forgets about it after the dock scene. There is only random chance in there to hear him say he's glad the "stupid worm" is gone from his head. Compare it to Minthara who also wants to usurp the brain's powers and does have a chat with Tav about them abandoning that idea post final battle.
5. I would have liked Astarion to have a reaction to our dialogue when we lie to his brethren in his support when they try to abduct him. He takes notice of you telling them they can take him if they want to, so it would be nice if he could express extra gratitude when we back him up. We also don't have any dialogue here reinforcing our stance that we'll help him ascend. There are only neutral and negative responses.
6. It's not specific to his romance, but I'd still like to say that I really like the menacing way Astarion's eyes look during ascension. It would be cool if his eyes would glow like that again when he enters combat to show him utilising his new powers.
Another point that was previously mentioned is that the game doesn't acknowledge the choice to travel the world with Ascendant and deciding to settle down with Spawn. There is also disregard for the MF Tav choices. I think MF Tav who agreed to the alliance should go to the party with Astarion, just not as a romantic partner. What blew my mind is when I recently found out that Lae'zel CAN actually romance a MF Tav. Her projection is all horny for the tentacles. Like... what? It's so weird! Still, it means that Astarion has even less epilogue content in comparison to others.
Anyways, I'd like to see something like this in the epilogue, either the way it's presented in the video or with roles reversed.
Another point that was previously mentioned is that the game doesn't acknowledge the choice to travel the world with Ascendant and deciding to settle down with Spawn.
I wonder if Larian even knows.
Originally Posted by Ametris
What blew my mind is when I recently found out that Lae'zel CAN actually romance a MF Tav. Her projection is all horny for the tentacles. Like... what? It's so weird! Still, it means that Astarion has even less epilogue content in comparison to others.
The epilogue feels weirdly short, yes. Especially with an Origin because otherwise almost everyone you can talk to at the party seems to have unique dialogue lines for them. With romanced Spawn-Astarion you also seem to be looking for a cure no matter which option you picked, as it is always a discussion topic with Minsc.
I'd like to gift Spawn Astarion the portrait you can get as a quest reward (in case that ever gets fixed). Not just as him mechanically being able to get painted, but as dialogue option you can offer to him.
I'd also like to be able to do this in the palace (as part of the pre-final battle scene I suggested).
Originally Posted by t1mekill3r
Originally Posted by Ametris
What blew my mind is when I recently found out that Lae'zel CAN actually romance a MF Tav. Her projection is all horny for the tentacles. Like... what? It's so weird! Still, it means that Astarion has even less epilogue content in comparison to others.
Astarion has standards.
He does! And I hope they never retcon it and make him get back with MF Tav.
I'd like to add: If Astarion Dark past is going to be realized and a dialog will be added too. I realize that it may never happen at all and so it's a very dreamy suggestion. But I'm too inspired so bring it on. The playstyle should significantly affect this dialog. It's an important thing. Speaking of playstyle I will use the terms alignment.
Astarion, before the ritual. And in general. Astarion has no reason to care about his dark past if the player is dark too. This system works in the conversation about controlling the cult in front of the Moon Towers. That the playstyle is evil\neutral-evil, or really neutral - doesn't interfere. If the player tells Nere to "kill the slaves" or "no action", for example, there are several key moments throughout the story that will signal Astarion how to act and shape his attitude towards the dialog and the player. There's a subtle point with neutrality, neutral alignment doesn't take sides, chaotic-neutral doesn't either (but is more subject to own caprice). And for Astarion, that's going to be I think the hardest part, understanding a player like that, as opposed to hero and villain. I think he'll be helped just here by the fact that the player is in a romance with him. As in the case of the story there will be key-romantic-moments. And not just good\care ones, but sacrificial and strange ones. One of the first is the player letting Astarion drink his blood\ or let kill player and not being too mad at him in the morning. That is moments when the player did something just for him risky things, questionable, supported not-good words Astarion. That is, Astarion would understand that he's the player's weak spot, he's being forgiven everything, so his behavior would be different. Or the player is quite individual and Astarion's influence is obviously less. Also the impact of "breaking up" when the relationship was before.
A player should be able to part ways, in every possible path because of this.
After the ritual.
Spawn. This will be an opportunity to show the thorns and dark side of Astarion Spawn. If for example the player has done some pretty evil things and doesn't care about the past, or evily-evil says Astarion was doing an interesting venture. Someone wants keeps playing Boney and Clyde without the ritual. Also a good player, could still condemn it even before going to a painful breakup. Or take great indignation if an evil player judges it.
Lord Astarion. DnD5 true-vampire rules work on an ascended vampire? In the interview said it's still Astarion. So I think, we can only evaluate actions. For Lord, it's a chance to show his gentle\fun side. For example, player has neutral and is simply Lord Astarion's own moral compass. But not in the sense of breaking up. Just a little... directing and structuring that chaotic fire, in Lawfull Evil so to speak, when there's a romantic relationship it's all the more interesting to watch. I like the tropes of Unholy Matrimony and Even Evil Has Loved Ones, which there just aren't many of these days. If the player was a good\neutral and said something nice\neutral or even supportive about Astarion past. That is, the player has stepped to the dark side. Lord Astarion will have a lot of branches - spawn Tav, after the ritual right away, after the breakup, after agreeing to be "partners-in-crime", even mortal Tav at the end maybe.
In general, I want a strong correlation with actions, how the player behaved in the game in any path for Astarion: in key moments, what decisions were made, how they behaved with Astarion, including in the romantic sense - it will be a deep dialog. With different options, including based on the player's race, class. Mindreading, Astarion's facial expressions and narrator's voice - that would be interesting, too.
A few suggestions I've been thinking about for a while. I use she for Tav here, but all this, of course, is for all Tavs.
Spawn after the ritual.
I remember in Act 1 he says "I'd like to drink from Cazador's skull...", in the Spawn end might remind Astarion of his idea. He's pretty depressed after everything and wants to leave sooner rather than later, so I don't know how it would work. But it's potentially interesting. I've thought of a few options: - Tav reminds him of this and asks if he wants to make a little trophy. If Astarion agrees, afterward Tav can fill the skull with their blood for Astarion to drink from. - Tav does the whole thing themselves and offers the "trophy" with their blood to Astarion. This can be implemented beyond the Black Mass hall, bringing the head with her if Tav decides to act on her own and surprise him. - Then, one could offer to keep the skull or sell it to someone as a taunt, tavern or otherwise. Since Cazador Sarr was one of the powerful men, he had enemies who might be interested in his skull.
The Death If you improperly talk Astarion out of the ritual he attacks Tav. The fight begins. I'd like to lose on purpose so I can watch the cutscene. Also after Ascension, if Tav sides with the Gur but loses the fight. Will Tav be already killed or on her last breath. I'd be interested to see it. I think it's possible, since you can feed yourself to an illithid at the beginning of the game. Angst-bard would make a joke about it: "Not a small death, but a big one, eh Astarion?" Death is also the end of the novel. Or of course the more emotional cutscene when killing any Astarion. I agree with Nayloth it's a cliché that you can't love a villain sincerely and that a villain can't love sincerely, I'd like to break that cliché in the game.
Lord Astarion.
The Ascended Astarion likes to say that Tav is his, I love hearing that. That's the dark romance I'm here for.
I wish Tav could say, "I am yours and you are mine".
Astarion very much values his power, his independence, however, it's clear to see that no matter everything, he is bound to Tav as well as she is to him - it's his blessing, however it's also a bond that in a way, captivates and holds him back. His love for Tav is probably the only thing in the entire world that has power over him. However, it's also happiness. That phrase is sorely lacking for a romance like this. So one would like to know what Lord Astarion thinks about it.
Another phrase that's missing during the scene after the Ascension. That "little death", Astarion literally kills Tav by turning her into a vampire, giving her the gift of the dark gift of eternity. Which would also be an interesting reference to the beginning. Some spicy vampire flirting, Addams Family style.
Lord Astarion's special lines during the game, battle.
Lord Astarion really doesn't like it when Tav is heroic and gives her life for something or gives up like for example Karlach, who chooses death. However, if... Tav simply dies in battle. I'd like to hear that, geez.
After Tav turn to Spawn. Full dialog with all companions. A sea of potential.
I'd like Tav to have positive answers and bard thing about her decision and Astarion as well.
"I give him blood every night, of course I love him, and I give him everything" - something like that if the branch of re-feeding Astarion from the first act is open. Also, I think there should be key-moments included here too that would count as Tav played - a character who went to the dark side, neutral, Tav was already "evil" or chaotic but more good, who is now with the "evil" Lord and brings balance to their couple.
I'm also interested in that moment with the Ascension and the drop of blood Astarion gave Tav. Gale should help me out on this one.
After talking to the companions, since it was a life-changing decision I'd like to talk about the companions' reactions with Astarion. If Gale said something interesting about Tav's condition, Astarion's blood drop - Tav could talk to Astarion about it.
Also, Tav could: - Decide to break up after talking to the companions, I guess another conversation with them would be needed afterward. - To be confident in her decision. - Be dramatic, worried and tell Astarion about it. Influence of play style: If Tav throughout the game willingly helped everyone and listened to all companions - played the hero, I don't think Astarion would be surprised by her worry. Yes, if it weren't for that sensitivity Astarion would have stayed on the beach. He might have calmed Tav down, depending on the answers, show care.
- Tav might be kinda pushy and want more clarity. Persuade Astarion with conviction\charisma or maybe a bard thing. Or negotiate it gently with a longer dialog. - To read each other's minds with a spell. - Mind tadpole bonding, as a reference to Act 2, so that Astarion would see her thoughts and Tav his. I'd like to see where Astarion's mental voice was heard. Everywhere Tav would choose the option of what she thinks, both negative and positive about their relationship. I'd like an extremely romantic, tender thought here.
If Tav finds out that Astarion has plotted not to make her a true vampire ever - also negative responses and positive ones. It doesn't matter to me whether Tav is a true vampire or not, what matters is that Astarion will openly say what he thinks and wants, and Tav might agree.
About the bride theory a bit and the concept of a special bond.
In the end, the bride theory is so nice, not so much because the bride has free will, it matters to me that this bond is extraordinarily special. And the book has amazing vampire and bride lore - that they can feel each other's emotions from miles away. Although there are certain risks and inconveniences for a Vampire Lord. Lord Vampires hide the bride's free will from her, and still make her a bride because they want that special bond. But if there's an understanding between them, the couple is unstoppable. I thought Astarion might have read that bride ritual in the necromancy of Theia. But I know that Wizards of the Coast holds the copyright to the idea, although Astarion mentions Strahd von Zarovich. I think it is possible to write a new similar ritual that would emphasize the specialness of their connection to each other. But if technically there are only regular spawns in the game, I think a drop of blood already makes their bond more special and that they drink each other's blood - then it would be great to reveal the part more.
I would want to show that regardless of his power, if, let's say, the ritual didn't work - my Tav would be with him, and now she will be with him. Astarion is completely into a power high, and I'm guessing "feeling alive" turns his head too. It will be a gentle moment.
That could be one way trigger the romantic cutscene. I think the paths to such a scene should be several - one of them is a conversation after the companions' reactions.
Romantic Scene with Lord Astarion
Tav is the first person whose blood Astarion drank. For Tav, Astarion could be the first too. They would drink each other. Blood is more than just food to vampires, they feel the energy of the creatures as Astarion tells us. So this is going to be an incredibly intimate moment.
I honestly think a lot of the suggestions in this thread are less interesting than what's in the game. I think it's cool we don't get a perfect romance with Ascended Astarion, it's narratively consistent with what the ritual means for him psychologically. I'd rather have something interesting and consistent than something that's OOC just for another cliché "bad boy romance who makes an exception for you" to fulfill the player's fantasy. Him being abusive is as refreshing as the fact that there is an option to ignore his consent issues in act 2. I don't see game romances usually going there, but I have definitely seen game romances doing the bad boy thing. Minthara is probably closer to the romance I see people asking for here, if only her romance wasn't broken...
I like this route a lot and my favorite parts of Ascended Astarion lie in him being fucked up, to put it bluntly. IDK I think with what's in the game is very cool and honestly maybe it'd be cooler if they went even further, the epilogue was too soft.
The only thing I agree with is that it'd be okay for a naive/not very bright Tav to get another option during his romance scene that's not about being a vampire, sex or reading him for filth but caring for his wellbeing instead. But I don't even think that's necessary since I tend to value narrative over roleplay (which is to be fair a personal preference), and a Tav that's done that already fulfills a certain amount of tropes that make those options that are already available the most interesting. But at least that one I understand and find doable since I think it'd just redirect to one of his already existing lines, since he wants what he wants (to control you).
another cliché "bad boy romance who makes an exception for you" to fulfill the player's fantasy.
That's how I see Spawn ending scenario, tbh.
A vampire lives with an elf they seek a cure for his sun, in different, maybe not the most moral ways. They say he tries to kill questionable individuals, but if anyone touches an loved elf who is with him, he will kill anyone.
But really I don't see anything wrong with it. The Evil Lord rules this city, pet bunnies, talks to ambassadors, weaves a web of power and loves his elf. Lord is more possessive. If someone hurts his loved one, he'll hang their bodies on the castle wall.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
honestly maybe it'd be cooler if they went even further, the epilogue was too soft.
I think yes people here haven't given up on romance like Minthara, we don't have another evil man. If they had gone further this novel would have lost complexity and become black and white moralizing. I'm really glad they didn't. A romance with Lord Atarion that shows soft\care but possessive traits, quite a deep theme for those who choose it. Angst potential Lord Astarion - I prefer it to remain fanfic and headcanon, I'm glad he's a soft chill in the epilogue, it's more in his character.
Of course, Tav positive responses will show that there's a strong true bond between them, playing a love-obsessed power couple is more fun for me.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
what the ritual means for him psychologically
What the ritual means to him everyone understands it differently. I look at his story more philosophically power games, evil and good. Since Larian is delicately silent, I headcanon his past before Cazdor as a corrupt magistrate who passed sentences and more for personal gain in his search for power. And he simply rolled back to his start, even more confident in his original principles. Hence the ritual gave him what he wanted all his life.
Astarion isn't called Decadence in DnD card for nothing. He'll do what he wants regardless of morals and what, right or wrong, especially when Astarion is Lord. Especially when this mess fell in love. Control his love - quite, watch through crystal spheres like Jareth, Goblin King - yes, never let go well, yes. His love is decadence, too. For clarity: I'm not asking to change that. It's a Dark Romance with a vampire, the genre speaks for itself. I don't think Ametris wants to either. The other thing is that I don't want to play Tav only as a damsel in distress when I myself agreed to give him everything. Otherwise, Tav didn't agree to "be his forever". Since my Tav agrees, she's decadence too and her love, which I show through positive responses.
I'd like to add: If Astarion Dark past is going to be realized and a dialog will be added too.
I hope we get to see his past restored one way or another.
Originally Posted by LiryFire
I wish Tav could say, "I am yours and you are mine".
So do I!
Originally Posted by LiryFire
After Tav turn to Spawn. Full dialog with all companions.
The decision to put this in banter that doesn't even trigger is very weird.
To be honest, I find it even stranger that the ascension and Tav turning into a vampire is not a deal breaker for Karlach and Wyll. They cry over a dozen or two tieflings being sacrificed for an alliance with Minthara but are chill about sending 7007 souls to Hell? How does that make sense? The ritual and the final battle decision are probably the most evil choices in the game.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
I honestly think a lot of the suggestions in this thread are less interesting than what's in the game. I think it's cool we don't get a perfect romance with Ascended Astarion, it's narratively consistent with what the ritual means for him psychologically. I'd rather have something interesting and consistent than something that's OOC just for another cliché "bad boy romance who makes an exception for you" to fulfill the player's fantasy. Him being abusive is as refreshing as the fact that there is an option to ignore his consent issues in act 2. I don't see game romances usually going there, but I have definitely seen game romances doing the bad boy thing. Minthara is probably closer to the romance I see people asking for here, if only her romance wasn't broken...
I like this route a lot and my favorite parts of Ascended Astarion lie in him being fucked up, to put it bluntly. IDK I think with what's in the game is very cool and honestly maybe it'd be cooler if they went even further, the epilogue was too soft.
The only thing I agree with is that it'd be okay for a naive/not very bright Tav to get another option during his romance scene that's not about being a vampire, sex or reading him for filth but caring for his wellbeing instead. But I don't even think that's necessary since I tend to value narrative over roleplay (which is to be fair a personal preference), and a Tav that's done that already fulfills a certain amount of tropes that make those options that are already available the most interesting. But at least that one I understand and find doable since I think it'd just redirect to one of his already existing lines, since he wants what he wants (to control you).
This thread is about his overall romance spanning over all acts as well as covering all of his paths, not just for Ascended Astarion. A big amount of suggestions are about content that's clearly missing and is bugged or not working well.
"Bad boy who make an exception for you" is precisely what the spawn path is about. A power hungry vampire who plots how to become stronger the whole game changes his mind last minute because you persuade him that he should "pet bunnies" instead and he sacrifices his ambitions for you.
I've made several suggestions here that would make him even more evil than what he is the game. The abusive part is not there if you roleplay an evil or at least morally chaotic character who agrees with his worldview, loves him the way he is and intends to stay with him forever, like they promised they would. This kind of Tav would genuinely care for his wellbeing. I think it's great that the game allows you to roleplay as a harmonious power couple or have a toxic dynamic where you're trapped in a relationship. The same thing in the spawn path - you can roleplay as a heroic goody-two-shoes who thinks abandoning power is truly the best thing for Astarion and believes he can heal that way better or a manipulative possessive coward who's scared of him getting stronger and wants to keep him dependent on you and to have a pretty vampire pet.
I don't even romance Spawn Astarion because I'm not super interested in that (did it once to see it but not my thing), but "Bad boy that makes exception for you" is clearly not what he is lol. Just look at the friendship epilogue. Or really, the fact that you can make him see the ritual is not truly what he needs even if you're friends or you don't even get along. Or the differences in dialogue between Spawn and Ascended during the final boss fight and ending in regards to other characters that aren't your PC.
Astarion wants power, yes, but the reasons he wants it for clearly are 1. self-hatred (he thinks who he is isn't enough and is too pathetic/weak) 2. fear. There are 3 moments I can think of where he expresses doubt or concedes your points if you're trying to dissuade him from the ritual. I don't think we should act like his hunger for power is his true, unaltered, pure desire unattached from everything that's happened to him and not mostly derived from his insecurities and trauma, as is unravelled throughout the game. His past as a magistrate is not playing much of a role here, I think, especially as the story basically doesn't even bring it up past a couple nods, as much as I wish it did.
I don't think it's a stretch to see that Astarion's good arc starts developing quite early on and is not sudden, as he drops his facade and barriers when he lets you read his scars, opens up to you about his consent issues in act 2, etc... do I think it's more interesting to corrupt him even further and make him regress? Yes. But I definitely got the impression that's where his arc was going even in my first blind run, pretty basic "what he thinks he wants is not what he really needs" arc. Saying he's petting bunnies is also disingenuous, I don't get the derision for a version of Astarion that's Chaotic Neutral at best.
"Bad boy that makes exception for you" is clearly not what he is lol. Just look at the friendship epilogue. Or really, the fact that you can make him see the ritual is not truly what he needs even if you're friends or you don't even get along.
Except you don't tell him the ritual is not what he needs but talk about the spawn who will die (sounds like guilt tripping him), you wanting him to have a certain type of life (that's Tav's need not his), or that the power might trap him (which they can't know for certain, besides Cazador is trapped by his undead condition, which he loathes, not by the ritual). If you romance him and then break up at the end he literally tells you he made the sacrifice for you only.
Originally Posted by jinetemorance
Astarion wants power, yes, but the reasons he wants it for clearly are 1. self-hatred (he thinks who he is isn't enough and is too pathetic/weak) 2. fear.
His reasons are more than just self-hatred and fear. He also wants to go through with the ritual because he wants the benefits it provides (extra powers, walking in the sun, a warm body, loss of the smell of undeath, sharper senses, etc.) has ambitions and wants to have the freedom to do what he wants. He was a noble who lived in luxury in the past too and he wants to regain what he lost.
Originally Posted by jinetemorance
I don't think it's a stretch to see that Astarion's good arc starts developing quite early on and is not sudden, as he drops his facade and barriers when he lets you read his scars, opens up to you about his consent issues in act 2, etc...
That's just him opening up to love and intimacy with another person not starting to be a morally sound person.
Originally Posted by jinetemorance
Saying he's petting bunnies is also disingenuous, I don't get the derision for a version of Astarion that's still Chaotic Neutral at best.
I was jokingly referring to his dialogue when you try to convince him he can be better than Cazador and that's how he sees Tav's suggestion.
"Bad boy that makes exception for you" is clearly not what he is lol. Just look at the friendship epilogue. Or really, the fact that you can make him see the ritual is not truly what he needs even if you're friends or you don't even get along.
Except you don't tell him the ritual is not what he needs but talk about the spawn who will die (sounds like guilt tripping him), you wanting him to have a certain type of life (that's Tav's need not his), or that the power might trap him (which they can't know for certain, besides Cazador is trapped by his undead condition, which he loathes, not by the ritual). If you romance him and then break up at the end he literally tells you he made the sacrifice for you only.
Originally Posted by jinetemorance
Astarion wants power, yes, but the reasons he wants it for clearly are 1. self-hatred (he thinks who he is isn't enough and is too pathetic/weak) 2. fear.
His reasons are more than just self-hatred and fear. He also wants to go through with the ritual because he wants the benefits it provides (extra powers, walking in the sun, a warm body, loss of the smell of undeath, sharper senses, etc.) has ambitions and wants to have the freedom to do what he wants. He was a noble who lived in luxury in the past too and he wants to regain what he lost.
Originally Posted by jinetemorance
I don't think it's a stretch to see that Astarion's good arc starts developing quite early on and is not sudden, as he drops his facade and barriers when he lets you read his scars, opens up to you about his consent issues in act 2, etc...
That's just him opening up to love and intimacy with another person not starting to be a morally sound person.
Originally Posted by jinetemorance
Saying he's petting bunnies is also disingenuous, I don't get the derision for a version of Astarion that's still Chaotic Neutral at best.
I was jokingly referring to his dialogue when you try to convince him he can be better than Cazador and that's how he sees Tav's suggestion.
The epilogue has Ascended Astarion saying he prefers doing power-plays in the palace rather than being in the sun. One of the first things he says is that he wants to cast a fog over the world so that his "children" can roam freely, effectively getting rid of sunlight. In the end the actual benefits of the ritual mean little to him compared to the focus on power.
The noble thing isn't even clear anymore, now that his backstory has been unfortunately softened and his background has been changed to Charlatan. His pseudo-canon Idle Champions description (who Stephen Rooney co-wrote) has him with "forged patents of nobility". Nevertheless I think his noble past is irrelevant, it's clear why he really wants to do the ritual, and it's not because of some past desire.
You can read his scars being just his friend and you can talk about his consent issues while only being his friend as well. And this is development because it's him seeing that not everything is worth the pursuit of power (in this case +2 strength potion) and that it's okay to be vulnerable. I don't think Ascended Astarion would do this, he's had the idea that being vulnerable is bad and that power is everything reinforced. Astarion's good arc is not about him really becoming "good" in that sense, this is also clear in the epilogue, he still enjoys killing people and he's "more me than I've ever been". It's about untangling his issues with power, vulnerability, identity etc.
The break up at the end thing is a flawed argument because it's said in a heated moment and it's directly negated by the fact that he's content with your choices if you're just his friend, unless you think your specific circumstances in the game retroactively change Astarion's reasoning for not ascending, which is valid I guess.
The nitpicking over the wording of the options is just weird to me. I don't think saying 7k people will die is guilt-tripping, it's a fact that's worth some consideration. The option saying that Tav wants Astarion to have a life he's proud of just reads to me as a friend caring for another friend, and again I do think Tav's reading here about what Astarion would be proud of is accurate. And we disagree on Cazador's struggle in the "power will trap you" option so I won't elaborate on that one, I just think it's a valid reading on Tav's part as well.
At the moment of the decision he really wants to be able to walk in the sun, and it is one of his motivations. The fact he prefers something else later doesn't mean he still doesn't enjoy the sun when he goes out. It's also one vulnerability less.
Astarion likes to say a lot of things but doesn't necessarily mean them. For all we know, he'll change his mind later. How can he even cast the fog? Sounds like he's daydreaming more than being a realist in that moment.
His background was cut in some ways, but he's still a vampire, being powerhungry is in his nature. Even before he learns about the ritual he wants to control the cult and talks about world domination as a fun project.
Either lover or friend, you're still the person he's closest to throughout his whole life and he listens to you when he decides to abandon the ritual. You are still the driving force behind his decision. If you're his lover then of course he's doing it for you, because he knows you won't change your mind and help him and he's scared of losing you.
Ascended Astarion doesn't want to eat the astral tadpole and is chill with you not enslaving the main enemy at the end. He also knows power is not everything but he certainly enjoys it.
Wording means a lot and it's everything when you sign contracts. To me Tav sounds manipulative more than concerned about him. There were better ways to phrase the persuasion options.
I honestly think a lot of the suggestions in this thread are less interesting than what's in the game. I think it's cool we don't get a perfect romance with Ascended Astarion, it's narratively consistent with what the ritual means for him psychologically. I'd rather have something interesting and consistent than something that's OOC just for another cliché "bad boy romance who makes an exception for you" to fulfill the player's fantasy. Him being abusive is as refreshing as the fact that there is an option to ignore his consent issues in act 2. I don't see game romances usually going there, but I have definitely seen game romances doing the bad boy thing. Minthara is probably closer to the romance I see people asking for here, if only her romance wasn't broken...
I like this route a lot and my favorite parts of Ascended Astarion lie in him being fucked up, to put it bluntly. IDK I think with what's in the game is very cool and honestly maybe it'd be cooler if they went even further, the epilogue was too soft.
The only thing I agree with is that it'd be okay for a naive/not very bright Tav to get another option during his romance scene that's not about being a vampire, sex or reading him for filth but caring for his wellbeing instead. But I don't even think that's necessary since I tend to value narrative over roleplay (which is to be fair a personal preference), and a Tav that's done that already fulfills a certain amount of tropes that make those options that are already available the most interesting. But at least that one I understand and find doable since I think it'd just redirect to one of his already existing lines, since he wants what he wants (to control you).
A well written rpg tackles roleplay possibilities while keeping the narrative intact. The game should not force motivations on your character and take away character agency for the sake of a certain narrative. As you said yourself, whatever you say, it will direct back to the ultimatum - be my spawn or this relationship is over. And that's totally fine.
I guess my biggest problem with this dialogue is that it wipes away the whole narrative we had up until now when it comes to the romance. It totally negates the pivotal Act 2 confession scene where we can show him that we really care about him, not because of his body or the power he represents as a vampire - him as a person. Otherwise the romance would not progress. I mean, you can even mindmelt with him and show him that you are not lying. But suddenly when we come to the dialogue after the Cazador fight it's "Psyche! We were just in it for the sex and/or the power after all!"
You can see this dissonance in the narrative especially in the scene where you read his thoughts when he commands you to kneel. His thinking of you degrading yourself is a throwback to a dialogue you can have with him after the Araj-incident when you tell him to use all his assets to get what he wants. He says something like "You are right, it's not me degrading myself to manipulate others, it's the ones who fall for it who degrade themselves". The problem is just that this dialogue is a non-romanced one. ONE option in the whole dialogue. But if you follow his romance path this never comes up, he never comes to this conclusion - on the contrary, you actually nudge him towards the revelation that a relationship between equals is a possibility. You even abstain from sex to give him time. Why would this be wiped away just because you let him have his revenge (and what is better revenge than taking all that power from Cazador that he painstakingly worked towards for centuries?)?
I mean, you could argue that he really manipulated us the whole time with his Act 2 confession, but in that case spawn Astarion wouldn't turn out the way he does.
In the end, the game just contradicts its own romance narrative for the sake of telling the story of "Astarion the abuser". I have nothing against Ascended Astarion being an abusive asshat to Tav, but it has to make sense in its own narrative. And it doesn't really. They even made Astarion revert to feeding you his favourite lines again and Tav can't call him out on it. For this to work you have to wipe away the whole romance narrative that has been built up until now.
So, for the sake of the narrative (the WHOLE narrative, not just the "Astarion the abuser" one), please let Tav tell him they did it for him and don't need anything back. That doesn't make Tav naive or stupid (as you said) but is perfectly in line with the whole romance narrative up until now. I can accept that evil hell magicks does something to you, turning you into something really evil, but Tav is still Tav.
I can accept that evil hell magicks does something to you, turning you into something really evil, but Tav is still Tav.
It doesn't even do that, as was confirmed in that ign article. Astarion is still that Astarion we know, just one who's not ashamed of his evil side and fully embraces it instead of struggling with it. Tav is also the same and there is no good reason to not be able to roleplay as someone who is fine with his decision (they helped him after all) AND still likes him as before. Very nice post, especially pointing out the narrative dissonance!
A well written rpg tackles roleplay possibilities while keeping the narrative intact. The game should not force motivations on your character and take away character agency for the sake of a certain narrative. As you said yourself, whatever you say, it will direct back to the ultimatum - be my spawn or this relationship is over. And that's totally fine.
I guess my biggest problem with this dialogue is that it wipes away the whole narrative we had up until now when it comes to the romance. It totally negates the pivotal Act 2 confession scene where we can show him that we really care about him, not because of his body or the power he represents as a vampire - him as a person. Otherwise the romance would not progress. I mean, you can even mindmelt with him and show him that you are not lying. But suddenly when we come to the dialogue after the Cazador fight it's "Psyche! We were just in it for the sex and/or the power after all!"
You can see this dissonance in the narrative especially in the scene where you read his thoughts when he commands you to kneel. His thinking of you degrading yourself is a throwback to a dialogue you can have with him after the Araj-incident when you tell him to use all his assets to get what he wants. He says something like "You are right, it's not me degrading myself to manipulate others, it's the ones who fall for it who degrade themselves". The problem is just that this dialogue is a non-romanced one. ONE option in the whole dialogue. But if you follow his romance path this never comes up, he never comes to this conclusion - on the contrary, you actually nudge him towards the revelation that a relationship between equals is a possibility. You even abstain from sex to give him time. Why would this be wiped away just because you let him have his revenge (and what is better revenge than taking all that power from Cazador that he painstakingly worked towards for centuries?)?
I mean, you could argue that he really manipulated us the whole time with his Act 2 confession, but in that case spawn Astarion wouldn't turn out the way he does.
In the end, the game just contradicts its own romance narrative for the sake of telling the story of "Astarion the abuser". I have nothing against Ascended Astarion being an abusive asshat to Tav, but it has to make sense in its own narrative. And it doesn't really. They even made Astarion revert to feeding you his favourite lines again and Tav can't call him out on it. For this to work you have to wipe away the whole romance narrative that has been built up until now.
So, for the sake of the narrative (the WHOLE narrative, not just the "Astarion the abuser" one), please let Tav tell him they did it for him and don't need anything back. That doesn't make Tav naive or stupid (as you said) but is perfectly in line with the whole romance narrative up until now. I can accept that evil hell magicks does something to you, turning you into something really evil, but Tav is still Tav.
I agree with you, honestly! I think at the end of the day I focus a lot more on narrative than the roleplay aspect so it's not in my priorities, but I understand that other people really value that (esp in an RPG game) which is why I think adding an option is def good. I see how the ascended romance contradicts the Act 2 romance but I also think that (hot take coming here) a romanced Tav who helps him ascend has either failed to see the crux of his issue or is ignoring it completely, perhaps because they hold certain views about power themselves, so either a well-intentioned naive person or evil/selfish. I always play fucked up Tavs so this isn't a problem, but I think if you're playing as an evil Tav you've already contradicted your choice in act 2 (maybe Tav was playing the long game, maybe Tav didn't care about sex so it didn't matter to them... up to the player). I agree that a naive Tav who just thinks giving Astarion whatever he wishes will help him hasn't however been inconsistent in their logic. I suck at writing my thoughts so I hope they're clear lol
I'd say the Spawn path is more about him realising that treating others as equals and that trust is an option. I do like the two conversations you have with him after the aborted ritual. I am not fond of that you cannot return the sentiment and tell him how important he has been in your character's life, which would be needed to keep the conversation level. I realise this might be difficult for ordinary Tavs but for the Origins - Durge included - this should be doable. After all Astarion helps Durge through a very difficult night and when I play as Gale, I can quite literally tell Mystra that Gale defied her command because of his new lover. It would be an excellent moment to both make your chosen Origin feel relevant and to tell Astarion that he has been just as important for your character as your character has been for him.
My second critique about None-Ascension is, that it is a bit lame. All the suspense of the scene is carried by the dice roll, not by the scene itself or even by the line of argumentation, which could be interesting. Tav is also very distant in the scene - I guess it was written with a paladin in mind - there is no moment to show sympathy for Astarion's situation. Astarion is also still reasonably calm throughout the scene, which is odd when you compare it to how the scene is described later on in dialogue. In the dialogue it sounds as if you talked him down from the very turning point of the ritual, which he wasn't anywhere near at in the scene.
As I have written in the thread about fixing Astarion's "good" ending, I recently did the None-Ascension in Astarion's Origin and it felt amazing. In his Origin the point of no return is after Astarion carves the contract into Cazador's back, this allows for the cathartic moment of carving the runes to play out and puts the final decision at the real turning point, where a flick of the wrist and the choice of tool decides about how things continue.
I also liked how my chosen companion, Gale (obviously ^^; ) handled the situation. He first shows empathy with Astarion and helps him because of it, makes his moral objection know at the point of no return and after freeing the spawn reveals that even his moral objections were also steeped in care for Astarion. I wish Tav had a smidge of the emotional capacity Gale shows in the situation because in the Origin version it felt like someone was having my character's back, and that their bond only grew through the shared experience. The companion version of the scene is sadly lacking all of this.
The Spawn path also needs a friends version of the graveyard scene.
I'd say the Spawn path is more about him realising that treating others as equals and that trust is an option. I do like the two conversations you have with him after the aborted ritual. I am not fond of that you cannot return the sentiment and tell him how important he has been in your character's life, which would be needed to keep the conversation level. I realise this might be difficult for ordinary Tavs but for the Origins - Durge included - this should be doable. After all Astarion helps Durge through a very difficult night and when I play as Gale, I can quite literally tell Mystra that Gale defied her command because of his new lover. It would be an excellent moment to both make your chosen Origin feel relevant and to tell Astarion that he has been just as important for your character as your character has been for him.
My second critique about None-Ascension is, that it is a bit lame. All the suspense of the scene is carried by the dice roll, not by the scene itself or even by the line of argumentation, which could be interesting. Tav is also very distant in the scene - I guess it was written with a paladin in mind - there is no moment to show sympathy for Astarion's situation. Astarion is also still reasonably calm throughout the scene, which is odd when you compare it to how the scene is described later on in dialogue. In the dialogue it sounds as if you talked him down from the very turning point of the ritual, which he wasn't anywhere near at in the scene.
As I have written in the thread about fixing Astarion's "good" ending, I recently did the None-Ascension in Astarion's Origin and it felt amazing. In his Origin the point of no return is after Astarion carves the contract into Cazador's back, this allows for the cathartic moment of carving the runes to play out and puts the final decision at the real turning point, where a flick of the wrist and the choice of tool decides about how things continue.
I also liked how my chosen companion, Gale (obviously ^^; ) handled the situation. He first shows empathy with Astarion and helps him because of it, makes his moral objection know at the point of no return and after freeing the spawn reveals that even his moral objections were also steeped in care for Astarion. I wish Tav had a smidge of the emotional capacity Gale shows in the situation because in the Origin version it felt like someone was having my character's back, and that their bond only grew through the shared experience. The companion version of the scene is sadly lacking all of this.
The Spawn path also needs a friends version of the graveyard scene.
Ohhh very interesting thoughts! I mostly agree. I'm mostly okay with most of the ritual scene since it's pretty amazing otherwise BUT I have also thought that I wish there were some parameters the game was following to determine Astarion's choice instead of just being the same dice roll for everyone, convincing him is a bit too quick when I think there could be more buildup, then again I understand script bifurcations can be complicated... but I feel like something as simple as making the dice roll check higher if you made him feed from Araj (thus reinforcing his views about the world) could work. I have at points thought "it'd be cool if Astarion realised this on his own, like Shadowheart" but it's such a survival mode moment that I understand that that's not the case. Again, the scene is pretty amazing to me so I feel like I'm just nitpicking.
Tav's too distant yes, but I also disagree with some people I've see who wish to hug him after he stabs Cazador. I think that should stay his moment. You didn't mention it but I've seen that idea around and I just wanted to say my piece about that hahah
And the graveyard scene... I've also thought about what a shame it is that there isn't a friendship version since I only play Spawn Astarion as a friend, but I think it's probably because this is very intimate and special for him. I'm okay either way tbf
I can accept that evil hell magicks does something to you, turning you into something really evil, but Tav is still Tav.
It doesn't even do that, as was confirmed in that ign article. Astarion is still that Astarion we know, just one who's not ashamed of his evil side and fully embraces it instead of struggling with it. Tav is also the same and there is no good reason to not be able to roleplay as someone who is fine with his decision (they helped him after all) AND still likes him as before. Very nice post, especially pointing out the narrative dissonance!
Thanks! Ah, I didn't know about the article. Then it does make even less sense for him to act the way he does.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
I agree with you, honestly! I think at the end of the day I focus a lot more on narrative than the roleplay aspect so it's not in my priorities, but I understand that other people really value that (esp in an RPG game) which is why I think adding an option is def good. I see how the ascended romance contradicts the Act 2 romance but I also think that (hot take coming here) a romanced Tav who helps him ascend has either failed to see the crux of his issue or is ignoring it completely, perhaps because they hold certain views about power themselves, so either a well-intentioned naive person or evil/selfish. I always play fucked up Tavs so this isn't a problem, but I think if you're playing as an evil Tav you've already contradicted your choice in act 2 (maybe Tav was playing the long game, maybe Tav didn't care about sex so it didn't matter to them... up to the player). I agree that a naive Tav who just thinks giving Astarion whatever he wishes will help him hasn't however been inconsistent in their logic. I suck at writing my thoughts so I hope they're clear lol
No worries, I think you are pretty clear! I think there's quite a lot of roleplay possibities between "a well-intentioned naive person or evil/selfish" one. Evil is not black and white (which makes it so dangerous IMO, but also interesting to play). You might for example play an evil Tav/Durge who is happy to have found a kindered spirit in Astarion, someone who enjoys the murder and chaos and doesn't judge them or want to hold them back. They are not naive or well-intentioned, but neither is their goal to manipulate him. Being like this is a legit way of life for them. This is a game where we can play Drow or Duergar. They come from cultures where taking power and revenge is part of everyday life. Even an evil person can genuinely care for him. So I do not see a contradiction to the Act 2-scene. If anything I wish I could tell him "Ah really? You think I did not see that? I thought we're having a fun little game here. *smirk*" after his confession. Because he's anything but subtle, which is obviously intentional.
No worries, I think you are pretty clear! I think there's quite a lot of roleplay possibities between "a well-intentioned naive person or evil/selfish" one. Evil is not black and white (which makes it so dangerous IMO, but also interesting to play). You might for example play an evil Tav/Durge who is happy to have found a kindered spirit in Astarion, someone who enjoys the murder and chaos and doesn't judge them or want to hold them back. They are not naive or well-intentioned, but neither is their goal to manipulate him. Being like this is a legit way of life for them. This is a game where we can play Drow or Duergar. They come from cultures where taking power and revenge is part of everyday life. Even an evil person can genuinely care for him. So I do not see a contradiction to the Act 2-scene. If anything I wish I could tell him "Ah really? You think I did not see that? I thought we're having a fun little game here. *smirk*" after his confession. Because he's anything but subtle, which is obviously intentional.
I simplified a bit for the sake of putting Tavs into two camps, I agree there's room for ambiguity! But I really hold the thought that a romanced Tav that lets him ascend hasn't really realised, is unaware, or doesn't care about why Astarion really wants to do the ritual and what you're reaffirming for him if you help him. The reasons for why Tav does it can vary, but to me it's very clear it's not a good option for him (which is why I love picking it tbh, tragedy enjoyers rise).
I also think that while the good ending is more satisfying the evil ending is much more interesting, since the good ending can be a bit unsubtle, esp the conversation the morning after, where he makes it very clear that this is the good path (to the point where I think "Okay... I don't think people talk like this". That being said I think most of the convo is sweet, but a bit heavy-handed here and there). With the evil ending there's a lot to pick at and dissect since it's, for the most part, subtler in regards to Astarion's psyche, which is why I don't like the idea of dumbing it down/sanding the edges for a sweeter and simpler "evil couple who are equals romance", I think it contradicts his entire logic now that he's ascended. This is mostly unrelated to what we were talking about so not an argument against you or anything but I was thinking about it and wanted to say it lol sorry
I simplified a bit for the sake of putting Tavs into two camps, I agree there's room for ambiguity! But I really hold the thought that a romanced Tav that lets him ascend hasn't really realised, is unaware, or doesn't care about why Astarion really wants to do the ritual and what you're reaffirming for him if you help him. The reasons for why Tav does it can vary, but to me it's very clear it's not a good option for him (which is why I love picking it tbh, tragedy enjoyers rise).
Thanks for clarifying. And I agree - It's really not what he needs for his self esteem. I'm totally on board with Ascension being the bad ending for him because he never confronts his fears (and I like it that way, too!). We all know that fear leads to the Dark Side. But I'll continue to be grumpy about the post-ascension dialogue and its lack of roleplay options, ha ha.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
I also think that while the good ending is more satisfying the evil ending is much more interesting, since the good ending can be a bit unsubtle, esp the conversation the morning after, where he makes it very clear that this is the good path (to the point where I think "Okay... I don't think people talk like this". That being said I think most of the convo is sweet, but a bit heavy-handed here and there). With the evil ending there's a lot to pick at and dissect since it's, for the most part, subtler in regards to Astarion's psyche, which is why I don't like the idea of dumbing it down/sanding the edges for a sweeter and simpler "evil couple who are equals romance". This is mostly unrelated to what we were talking about so not an argument against you or anything but I was thinking about it and wanted to say it lol sorry
No, I agree. The spawn ending is toothachingly sweet, especially in the new epilogue. Even spawn Astarion needs to keep his "bite" IMO and he comes off as a bit too nice at times.
But I really love the Ascended epilogue and got exactly what I wanted out of it. My evil ex-Durge just reveled in the evil couple stuff, still seeing the talks with Astarion as a constant game and ignoring his low-key threats ("I'm always watching"). I loved that I could talk with God Gale about the possibility of Ascension. *evil snicker*
And with my goodish ex-Durge who just wanted to give all the power to Astarion for safety reasons but who had buyer's remorse there was the whole freedom dialogue complete with Astarion's gaslighting. Damn, what a gut punch!
No, I agree. The spawn ending is toothachingly sweet, especially in the new epilogue. Even spawn Astarion needs to keep his "bite" IMO and he comes off as a bit too nice at times.
But I really love the Ascended epilogue and got exactly what I wanted out of it. My evil ex-Durge just reveled in the evil couple stuff, still seeing the talks with Astarion as a constant game and ignoring his low-key threats ("I'm always watching"). I loved that I could talk with God Gale about the possibility of Ascension. *evil snicker*
And with my goodish ex-Durge who just wanted to give all the power to Astarion for safety reasons but who had buyer's remorse there was the whole freedom dialogue complete with Astarion's gaslighting. Damn, what a gut punch!
Oh yeah, there are some sentences where I've definitely gone "okay that's going a bit too far with his goodness". Overall I still think Spawn Astarion is the one that changes Astarion's attitude the least between the two routes but they def overdid it here and there. I didn't love Astarion's epilogues either way, tbh (I don't think Spawn was overly "good" in this case though, but I much prefer his friendship version, as cute as the hug is) There are things I like here and there of course, esp some hidden lines (like with Origin Ascended Gale) but overall I found it all bland and with less content than the other characters, which is uncommon for Astarion but maybe deserved after all the favoritism he's gotten throughout the rest of the game lol. At least I can be happy knowing I correctly predicted what his good and bad ending would look like back in EA, lol. I thought his good ending would have him become a chaotic/morally questionable monster hunter/adventurer and that his bad ending would be him becoming a Lord and turning Tav into a spawn. I didn't predict the Ascendancy aspect but close enough! (Now remembering how his writer said the original concept for him was "Medieval Deadpool" and how that becomes kind of true for his spawn ending...)
The spawn ending is toothachingly sweet, especially in the new epilogue. Even spawn Astarion needs to keep his "bite" IMO and he comes off as a bit too nice at times.
They've turned it into rainbows and unicorns, without mentioning any of the inconveniences Astarion has to deal with after losing the tadpole - in the romanced version that is. At least the Underdark and Ascended endings have more realism. I agree, he becomes too nice and loses his snarkiness.
They've turned it into rainbows and unicorns, without mentioning any of the inconveniences Astarion has to deal with after losing the tadpole - in the romanced version that is. At least the Underdark and Ascended endings have more realism. I agree, he becomes too nice and loses his snarkiness.
I agree he's too nice (moreso in the final battle than in the epilogues, where I think they've toned it down) but regarding the loss of the tadpole in the Spawn ending I do quite like what they've done with the vampirism metaphor. The way he talks about it in his adventurer (and I think in the underdark ending as well? I can't remember if he also talks about it) it struck me as they're making vampirism be a metaphor for trauma/being a trauma survivor in the way Astarion worded it. He says doesn't want to obsess over the choices people have made for him but isn't also disavowing the sun, and if the opportunity arises, he will take it. So basically, much like trauma survivors, he can't "erase" the pain that's been inflicted to him, but he can grow around it. I found that interesting.
I will say something about the Underdark ending rubbed me the wrong way, but I just honestly don't think Astarion should be anyone's leader especially at this point of his life lol. Him making "brutal examples" of people attempting to overthrow him and that he can't "afford to show weakness" struck me as a bit contradicting of everything else he says throughout the spawn route. Since the spawn ending makes him so (overly) wholesome at times it was kind of jarring for him to employ abusive displays of power like that. I'm not against him being capable of or employing cruelty at all, my favorite Astarion moments are when he stabs Gandrel and strangles Petras, but the spawn arc making him too sweet at times made those lines seem inconsistent/OOC. I guess it does open up the opportunity for another arc for him to develop, but I think the adventurer ending is more fitting for him since he's too selfish to chain himself to a colony of spawn.
The spawn non-romanced version is done better than when he's in a relationship, but I don't like his lines about inspiring hope and saying he's fine not drinking blood. Sounds too heroic and like he's becoming a Wyll wannabe. It would have been more in character if he said that he was taking some mercenary jobs for fun, to kill some people and to be able to drink blood of those no one would miss.
To me him accepting the fact he can't walk in the sun is him embracing his vampiric side and the restrictions that come with it, his inner darkness and integrating his shadow self. He feels fine with who he is but if he can find ways to get rid of the inconveniences that come with his condition then he'll take them, because he still wants to empower himself and live a good life. Cazador hated being a vampire and all the drawbacks he had to deal with, which can be witnessed if his mind is read when Astarion is not present during the encounter. Him becoming a vampire was his choice so I think he just means being ordered around and having to do others' bidding as something he wants to leave in the past because now he has the freedom to forge a new future for himself. It takes him a while to get out of the slave mindset, even if he's physically free from Cazador.
The life in the Underdark is brutal and the types he has to deal with were not nice people even during their mortal lives (he says folks like Sebastian were in the minority). He doesn't have any extra powers as he does after ascension so a violent display from time to time makes sense. The majority of them are still ravenous and only strength is something they would respect. Right after abandoning the ritual he feels hopeful that he can live a different way but when he's in the Underdark he gets a hit of reality. Being idealistic doesn't work in that environment.
He is selfish but he also likes having power over other people. It could be his way of experiencing that thrill even without ascending.
(...) ... but I feel like something as simple as making the dice roll check higher if you made him feed from Araj (thus reinforcing his views about the world) could work. I have at points thought "it'd be cool if Astarion realised this on his own, like Shadowheart" but it's such a survival mode moment that I understand that that's not the case. Again, the scene is pretty amazing to me so I feel like I'm just nitpicking.
That would be a nice and interesting way to have gameplay and choices affect the dice role, currently it's only lowered by gazing into his eyes. But overall I am not a fan of the drama of a scene hinging on a dice role. The dice role is good to accentuate the suspense but it shouldn't be a substitute for it.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
Tav's too distant yes, but I also disagree with some people I've see who wish to hug him after he stabs Cazador. I think that should stay his moment. You didn't mention it but I've seen that idea around and I just wanted to say my piece about that hahah
Agree, I think everything post stabbing is great as it is - no drinking from skulls needed, it's not the drinking from skulls ending - just the build up could be more intense, have a bit more blood splatter, take the scene a bit more to the edge.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
I agree he's too nice (moreso in the final battle than in the epilogues, where I think they've toned it down) but regarding the loss of the tadpole in the Spawn ending I do quite like what they've done with the vampirism metaphor.
Is there more in the final battle than that scene when Tav thinks about accepting the final tadpole from the emperor? I never got even that one because I instantly agreed to shrimp Orpheus - I am very ok with shrimping Orpheus - I just had Astarion scold me for even thinking about using Origin-Gale's bomb at the brain stem. Which is so on brand for Astarion. Everyone else asks why Gale hesitates, while Astarion sees right through it.
The romance epilogue is a bit too short for me to say anything real about it, it's lacking the middle portion. But in general I prefer it when sweetness comes from warmth, hope and the confidence of managing hard times together, rather than from ignoring problems. I recently saw Gale's proposal when Tav is a mind flayer and that's kind of perfect in this regard, addressing possible problems and countering them with warmth and confidence, and I wish the spawn ending had a bit more of that in the romance. That's the charm of bitter-sweet, no?
The Underdark ending feels like something he feels obliged to do. If you take the long route of talking about the other spawn in the post-graveyard dialogue it at least sounds like something he doesn't really want but maybe should do.
Is there more in the final battle than that scene when Tav thinks about accepting the final tadpole from the emperor? I never got even that one because I instantly agreed to shrimp Orpheus - I am very ok with shrimping Orpheus - I just had Astarion scold me for even thinking about using Origin-Gale's bomb at the brain stem. Which is so on brand for Astarion. Everyone else asks why Gale hesitates, while Astarion sees right through it.
The romance epilogue is a bit too short for me to say anything real about it, it's lacking the middle portion. But in general I prefer it when sweetness comes from warmth, hope and the confidence of managing hard times together, rather than from ignoring problems. I recently saw Gale's proposal when Tav is a mind flayer and that's kind of perfect in this regard, addressing possible problems and countering them with warmth and confidence, and I wish the spawn ending had a bit more of that in the romance. That's the charm of bitter-sweet, no?
There are a bunch of throwaway comments that you might or might not get since they appear kind of at random, some of them might be overly sweet but I don't find them jarring/OOC (for example, him lamenting Gale's death, since they travelled together for 4 months) but some of them I'm like ohhhh that's a bit too much.
I don't know if I truly have an issue regarding the bittersweetness or the sweetness of the spawn romanced epilogue, I just think it's quite bland. P much every PC gets the same dialogue no matter what and it's quite short, they could've done something like Shadowheart's romanced epilogue where she's pondering which stories to tell (similar to human Gale). The positives for me are that the hug contrast is a nice callback, and at first I found his body language while saying "bitter and twisted" cute but now I kind of cringe a bit haha. The dialogue just feels very standard and flavorless (and almost rushed, when compared to other companion's epilogues) when Astarion is usually quite distinguishable, I think p much anyone could say what he said to a romanced PC (that we all deserve happiness etc. I'm not against him saying something like that but it still felt weird to me?). I saw it more clearly during the epilogue with friend Durge where he's hiding a knife, that's a moment where I thought "yeah that's Astarion alright".
In some ways the epilogue left a bitter taste in my mouth cus it made me realise that Astarion's narrative arc is truly done with, but I guess that makes sense. It's just hard to let a character you like go lol.
Also in regards to the Underdark ending, I'm not even sure if it was originally meant to be the canon spawn ending. In the datamines for the original epilogue it was, but now Adventurer's the default, which I'm glad for since I think it suits him more and he'd be happier that way. It's also confusing that if you break up with him during the ending he says he will look for the Spawn but unless you've told him "we should go look for the spawn" he doesn't do it. It sounds bugged, even though I don't want it fixed tbh.
The dialogue just feels very standard and flavorless (and almost rushed, when compared to other companion's epilogues) when Astarion is usually quite distinguishable, I think p much anyone could say what he said to a romanced PC (that we all deserve happiness etc. I'm not against him saying something like that but it still felt weird to me?). I saw it more clearly during the epilogue with friend Durge where he's hiding a knife, that's a moment where I thought "yeah that's Astarion alright".
This.
Originally Posted by jinetemoranco
It's also confusing that if you break up with him during the ending he says he will look for the Spawn but unless you've told him "we should go look for the spawn" he doesn't do it. It sounds bugged, even though I don't want it fixed tbh.
Maybe he's doing it to spite Tav, like he's saying "I can do this on my own, I don't need you" and wanting to find his brethren because they were people who could relate to him after the only person who supposedly cared for him decided to leave him in a rather crappy fashion.
He's delightful. <3
He now grabs Tav's hip and pulls them closer to him. The kiss is longer and more passionate than all the previous iterations! Sadly broken for me, because he kisses the air in front of my Tav's forehead.
but today Neil Newbon received a Golden Joystick award for Best Supporting Performer and it's so well deserved! 
He truly brought Astarion to life!
(the website won't let me embed the short for some reason)
I'd like to see this scene start off from the same back angle as in the short (so we can properly see the sexy grab), then switch to the profile shot and also allow us to see him using his second hand, then just continue with what is already there.
Now if they could just spice up the Endgame kiss - I thought I read in the patch notes that they did implemented new ones, but I guess that was just wishful thinking as it's still the same old peck.
Yeah, it boggles the mind. Considering how important it is to him that all see them ![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/bgZ1PpK/F5-Owcw-IWYAAu-U6x.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/sRBbgnJ/vow-45-wedding-festivity.jpg)