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journeyman
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and In the epilogue in the game he plans to Rule the world from the shadows and throw wild parties. He treats Tav mainly as a pretty bauble. He is a step from becoming Cazador. What happens when Tav is no longer a pretty bauble? What happens if he gets bored? Even if he doesn't become Cazador at that point. He is no better then Cazador just another Power hungry Monster.
It's crazy how a cell can look so pretty when the person you love says the right words every time.
Don't let your Love of his Character blind you to who is becoming. Your falling into the same trap Tav does by going that path.
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The way I see it he's a honey trap no matter the outcome. Even if he stays as a spawn he says Cazador is and always will be a part of him. Maybe in a few years down the line he starts regretting his decision and blames Tav for influencing him and turns into an angry and bitter monster? He might also find other ways to empower himself.
After abandoning the ritual he thanks Tav and says all sorts of nice things. But that's what he does - he knows what to say to others to make them feel good about themselves. Frankly, I wouldn't be amazed if he actually prepared that monologue for Tav for the occasion (Shadowheart catches him rehearse compliments once). In his spawn ending he lies to Tav that he'd be ok if they wanted to part ways.
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journeyman
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journeyman
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Of he's a Honey Trap. He even says he is. I'd rather him blame me for making him weak then let him become the monster and have to live with the fact I kill thousands of people just to see him become a monster knowing i created it.
EDIT: I also hate people trying make it like he doesn't. Acting like his still in love with Tav and it's all rainbow's and lolly pop's after you just murdered thousand of people for power or for him.
Last edited by Rosa; 11/11/23 01:48 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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I agree with everything you say here. Astarion isn't a broken person needing someone to fix him.
Did what happen to him shape him? Yes.
Has it cause trauma? Yes, but Astarion himself can see that and he wants Vengeance.
He wants Power so no one else can ever do what Cazador did to him and he doesn't care how he gets it.
He even tells Tav as much and Tav has the power to stop him from becoming Cazador or let him become Cazador. Rosa, I see you agree with me on some things. You see, I'm in favor of the Ascension. Let's find out why, if you're interested. The rhetoric of "becoming a Cazador" is not my thing at all. Why? What's more interesting to the author - cloning another character or revealing his own character's dark side? If Astarion was good all the time and then he ascended and puf-f-f magic he's a big bad vampire. Astarion is destructive from the start, I think Ascension is the apotheosis of His Dark Desires. Logical - Evil ending - Evil character revelation Good ending - Neutral (because he's still a vampire, he can't be kind except to Tav) By dataminer stuff, the upper city is carved out and Cazador is carved out as a potential ally. Like… we can make a deal with the spiders, but with Cazador, no way. Cazador is so shitty revealed that to compare Astarion to it..... It's just... why? Because Tav says so in one of the options, well Tav can cut off an arm too. We need to look a deeper. It's more of a philosophical topic about power here. Which is very interesting too. Power can corrupt. Someone wants to be the King no matter what - that's very much in Astarion's character. He wanted to be on top always. Faerun is a dangerous world. You either eat or you get eaten. Like I said, this is not a fairy tale. It's a huge kaleidoscope of violence. 7k spawns - well, like, they're dangerous npcs. And Astarion was willing to pay that cost. In The Witcher, spoiler: I choose the Baron over the child-npcs. If they were vampires, it would be easier. But since this is a roleplaying game, we can go the neutral route and not take the power. It's a good, paladin playstyle. In general, goodness is the relinquishment of power. Goodness is altruistic. Astarion is altruistic? Not at all. Never will – I think. Asatrion is not Will and it's not Karlach. Giving power to a man who craves it is risky, to say the least. Evil. But my Tav wants to take over the world and want Astarion to have it all, so he will. About slaves, well. Astarion became my Master from the moment I saw him. If the Master loves you, it's all right. You see, the power dynamic between a medieval, vampire elf, especially when it's Astarion isn't everyone's cup of tea. It's a very dark, aggressive love-obsession. I never chose Astarion for a healthy relationship. Astarion's character is inspired by: "by 18th-century libertines" (artbook) It's a whole term. Libertinism (libertines) is described as an extreme form of hedonism. A libertine is a person devoid of most moral principles, sense of responsibility, or sexual restraints. Among whom Mariquise de Sade stood out. Astarion description in the artbook is literal: Dangerous and Decadent. Decadent - having or showing low standards, especially moral ones, and an interest only in pleasure and enjoyment rather than serious things. The pure and sacrificial love of Agnus - I don't think so. That man is a mess. Like I said the idea is wild and bold. "Ascended Astarion is scary, yes, but some people might actually like that ending for this character" - Neil. Some even cut that quote off, after the word "but". There's also a theory about the bride. By book Van Richten's Guide to Vampires - Relations between Vampires BG3 was written according to the rules of DnD 5th edition. The book is DnD 2. Some rules in gameplay are changed. But global lore and descriptions of creatures remained, for example, in DnD 3.5 neutral-evil alignment of vampire spawns goes to DnD 5. It's unconfirmed, but it's still great reading on vampires and how they feel. And the only thing we know about Ascension is from the game, "all the pleasures of mortals are available." In my dream, a nice person said it very well: «Act 1 with Abdirak, it was clear Astarion was dom material. Ascended Astarion is just full on capital D Dom. I notice a lot of uwu fans only ever read the worst into AA's lines, and when anything positive, showing his love or care for you, or anything that runs counterpoint to 'AA = Objectively Bad Ending' narrative shows up it's either ignored or assumed to just be lies. He's the goddamn Vampire Ascendant and loads more powerful than you, why would he need or want to lie to you anymore? If you break up with him he misses YOU, for pete's sake. His love is all consuming and obsessive, but becoming a Vampire Lord has just turned him to 11, so to speak». I'm a The Dungeon Master is here too, if you can keep the vampire spawn on a good path. I'll be able to enjoy the love-obsession of being a Vampire. I've been watching this fandom for 12 days and here's what I have to say: Not one single word from the Ascended Astarion (not at the end with Karlach, not at the end with the tentacle) has ever hurt me. It's only the aggressive-spawn-fans with their over-the-top morals that have done that. It's like they want to fix not only Astarion, but me as well. If you hate some people, maybe it's better to do it in silence?
Last edited by LiryFire; 13/11/23 05:13 PM.
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There is no truly positive outcome here. The game is quite dramatic in this regard. What is better? Sacrificing thousands for a guy who helps you save the world and will be able do that again in the future thanks to his powers or let out thousands of feral spawn that will kill even more people than Astarion probably ever could? Both choices are questionable.
Tav gives him a new start either way. He's free to choose who he wants to be in both outcomes. If he wants to be a monster then that's his own business. Even as a monster he can always decide he wants to live differently. Life is not clear cut like this.
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journeyman
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I agree with everything you say here. Astarion isn't a broken person needing someone to fix him.
Did what happen to him shape him? Yes.
Has it cause trauma? Yes, but Astarion himself can see that and he wants Vengeance.
He wants Power so no one else can ever do what Cazador did to him and he doesn't care how he gets it.
He even tells Tav as much and Tav has the power to stop him from becoming Cazador or let him become Cazador. Rosa, I see you agree with me on some things. You see, I'm in favor of the Ascension. Let's find out why, if you're interested. The rhetoric of "becoming a Cazador" is not my thing at all. Why? What's more interesting to the author - cloning another character or revealing his own character's dark side? If Astarion was good all the time and then he ascended and puf-f-f magic he's a big bad vampire. Astarion is destructive from the start, I think Ascension is the apotheosis of His Dark Desires. Logical - Evil ending - Evil character revelation Good ending - Neutral (because he's still a vampire, he can't be kind except to Tav) By dataminer stuff, the upper city is carved out and Cazador is carved out as a potential ally. Like… we can make a deal with the spiders, but with Cazador, no way. Cazador is so shitty revealed that to compare Astarion to it..... It's just... why? Because Tav says so in one of the options, well Tav can cut off an arm too. We need to look a deeper. It's more of a philosophical topic about power here. Which is very interesting too. Power can corrupt. Someone wants to be the King no matter what - that's very much in Astarion's character. He wanted to be on top always. Faerun is a dangerous world. You either eat or you get eaten. Like I said, this is not a fairy tale. It's a huge kaleidoscope of violence. 7k spawns - well, like, they're dangerous npcs. And Astarion was willing to pay that cost. In The Witcher, spoiler: I choose the Baron over the child-npcs. If they were vampires, it would be easier. But since this is a roleplaying game, we can go the neutral route and not take the power. It's a good, paladin playstyle. In general, goodness is the relinquishment of power. Goodness is altruistic. Astarion is altruistic? Not at all. Never will – I think. Asatrion is not Will and it's not Karlach. Giving power to a man who craves it is risky, to say the least. Evil. But my Tav wants to take over the world and want Astarion to have it all, so he will. About slaves, well. Astarion became my Master from the moment I saw him. If the Master loves you, it's all right. You see, the power dynamic between a medieval, vampire elf, especially when it's Astarion isn't everyone's cup of tea. It's a very dark, aggressive love-obsession. I never chose Astarion for a healthy relationship. Astarion's character is inspired by: "by 18th-century libertines" (artbook) It's a whole term. Libertinism (libertines) is described as an extreme form of hedonism. A libertine is a person devoid of most moral principles, sense of responsibility, or sexual restraints. Among whom Mariquise de Sade stood out. Astarion description in the artbook is literal: Dangerous and Decadent. Decadent - having or showing low standards, especially moral ones, and an interest only in pleasure and enjoyment rather than serious things. The pure and sacrificial love of Agnus - I don't think so. That man is a mess. Like I said the idea is wild and bold. "Ascended Astarion is scary, yes, but some people might actually like that ending for this character" - Neil. Some even cut that quote off, after the word "but". There's also a theory about the bride. By book Van Richten's Guide to Vampires - Relations between Vampires BG3 was written according to the rules of DnD 5th edition. The book is DnD 3.5. Some rules in gameplay are changed. But global lore and descriptions of creatures remained, for example, neutral-evil alignment of vampire spawns. It's unconfirmed, but it's still great reading on vampires and how they feel. And the only thing we know about Ascension is from the game, "all the pleasures of mortals are available." I'll allow myself to quote a youtube comment by Wyltedleaves, that's why it's so good: «Act 1 with Abdirak, it was clear Astarion was dom material. Ascended Astarion is just full on capital D Dom. I notice a lot of uwu fans only ever read the worst into AA's lines, and when anything positive, showing his love or care for you, or anything that runs counterpoint to 'AA = Objectively Bad Ending' narrative shows up it's either ignored or assumed to just be lies. He's the goddamn Vampire Ascendant and loads more powerful than you, why would he need or want to lie to you anymore? If you break up with him he misses YOU, for pete's sake. His love is all consuming and obsessive, but becoming a Vampire Lord has just turned him to 11, so to speak». I'm a The Dungeon Master is here too, if you can keep the vampire spawn on a good path. I'll be able to enjoy the love-obsession of being a Vampire. I've been watching this fandom for 12 days and here's what I have to say: Not one single word from the Ascended Astarion (not at the end with Karlach, not at the end with the tentacle) has ever hurt me. It's only the aggressive-spawn-fans with their over-the-top morals that have done that. It's like they want to fix not only Astarion, but me as well. If you hate some people, maybe it's better to do it in silence? I agree with everything you say here. Astarion isn't a broken person needing someone to fix him.
Did what happen to him shape him? Yes.
Has it cause trauma? Yes, but Astarion himself can see that and he wants Vengeance.
He wants Power so no one else can ever do what Cazador did to him and he doesn't care how he gets it.
He even tells Tav as much and Tav has the power to stop him from becoming Cazador or let him become Cazador. Rosa, I see you agree with me on some things. You see, I'm in favor of the Ascension. Let's find out why, if you're interested. The rhetoric of "becoming a Cazador" is not my thing at all. Why? What's more interesting to the author - cloning another character or revealing his own character's dark side? If Astarion was good all the time and then he ascended and puf-f-f magic he's a big bad vampire. Astarion is destructive from the start, I think Ascension is the apotheosis of His Dark Desires. Logical - Evil ending - Evil character revelation Good ending - Neutral (because he's still a vampire, he can't be kind except to Tav) By dataminer stuff, the upper city is carved out and Cazador is carved out as a potential ally. Like… we can make a deal with the spiders, but with Cazador, no way. Cazador is so shitty revealed that to compare Astarion to it..... It's just... why? Because Tav says so in one of the options, well Tav can cut off an arm too. We need to look a deeper. It's more of a philosophical topic about power here. Which is very interesting too. Power can corrupt. Someone wants to be the King no matter what - that's very much in Astarion's character. He wanted to be on top always. Faerun is a dangerous world. You either eat or you get eaten. Like I said, this is not a fairy tale. It's a huge kaleidoscope of violence. 7k spawns - well, like, they're dangerous npcs. And Astarion was willing to pay that cost. In The Witcher, spoiler: I choose the Baron over the child-npcs. If they were vampires, it would be easier. But since this is a roleplaying game, we can go the neutral route and not take the power. It's a good, paladin playstyle. In general, goodness is the relinquishment of power. Goodness is altruistic. Astarion is altruistic? Not at all. Never will – I think. Asatrion is not Will and it's not Karlach. Giving power to a man who craves it is risky, to say the least. Evil. But my Tav wants to take over the world and want Astarion to have it all, so he will. About slaves, well. Astarion became my Master from the moment I saw him. If the Master loves you, it's all right. You see, the power dynamic between a medieval, vampire elf, especially when it's Astarion isn't everyone's cup of tea. It's a very dark, aggressive love-obsession. I never chose Astarion for a healthy relationship. Astarion's character is inspired by: "by 18th-century libertines" (artbook) It's a whole term. Libertinism (libertines) is described as an extreme form of hedonism. A libertine is a person devoid of most moral principles, sense of responsibility, or sexual restraints. Among whom Mariquise de Sade stood out. Astarion description in the artbook is literal: Dangerous and Decadent. Decadent - having or showing low standards, especially moral ones, and an interest only in pleasure and enjoyment rather than serious things. The pure and sacrificial love of Agnus - I don't think so. That man is a mess. Like I said the idea is wild and bold. "Ascended Astarion is scary, yes, but some people might actually like that ending for this character" - Neil. Some even cut that quote off, after the word "but". There's also a theory about the bride. By book Van Richten's Guide to Vampires - Relations between Vampires BG3 was written according to the rules of DnD 5th edition. The book is DnD 3.5. Some rules in gameplay are changed. But global lore and descriptions of creatures remained, for example, neutral-evil alignment of vampire spawns. It's unconfirmed, but it's still great reading on vampires and how they feel. And the only thing we know about Ascension is from the game, "all the pleasures of mortals are available." I'll allow myself to quote a youtube comment by Wyltedleaves, that's why it's so good: «Act 1 with Abdirak, it was clear Astarion was dom material. Ascended Astarion is just full on capital D Dom. I notice a lot of uwu fans only ever read the worst into AA's lines, and when anything positive, showing his love or care for you, or anything that runs counterpoint to 'AA = Objectively Bad Ending' narrative shows up it's either ignored or assumed to just be lies. He's the goddamn Vampire Ascendant and loads more powerful than you, why would he need or want to lie to you anymore? If you break up with him he misses YOU, for pete's sake. His love is all consuming and obsessive, but becoming a Vampire Lord has just turned him to 11, so to speak». I'm a The Dungeon Master is here too, if you can keep the vampire spawn on a good path. I'll be able to enjoy the love-obsession of being a Vampire. I've been watching this fandom for 12 days and here's what I have to say: Not one single word from the Ascended Astarion (not at the end with Karlach, not at the end with the tentacle) has ever hurt me. It's only the aggressive-spawn-fans with their over-the-top morals that have done that. It's like they want to fix not only Astarion, but me as well. If you hate some people, maybe it's better to do it in silence? It's not really hate, it's just annoying. You see him for what he is and you accept and your Tav is will to kill thousands of people for him. I'm not saying your Tav can't. I'm just saying people need stop acting like his not Evil. He is. As Spawn is his. Even if he wasn't a spawn he would be. I didn't mean to seem like I don't like the Ascended and it's wrong and no one should do it. It's just I see so many people act like he's not a evil person and Ascendant is just going to stop because Tav asks nicely. I'm sorry if I hurt your feels or anyone else's.
Last edited by Rosa; 11/11/23 02:09 PM.
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EDIT: I also hate people trying make it like he doesn't. Acting like his still in love with Tav and it's all rainbow's and lolly pop's after you just murdered thousand of people for power or for him. Where was I saying it's all rainbows and sunshine lol? I'm fully aware it's a dark romance. To me he's evil from the beginning and I love it. Finally a game that let's me have a proper edgy romance! I don't feel the need to fix him. I'm not his mum nor his shrink. In my game it was ride or die together. I just don't agree with generalising that he is instantly Cazador 2.0 when he game itself shows he doesn't behave the same way he does. Thank you LiryFire for your post, you summed up my feelings perfectly.
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journeyman
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EDIT: I also hate people trying make it like he doesn't. Acting like his still in love with Tav and it's all rainbow's and lolly pop's after you just murdered thousand of people for power or for him. Where was I saying it's all rainbows and sunshine lol? I'm fully aware it's a dark romance. To me he's evil from the beginning and I love it. Finally a game that let's me have a proper edgy romance. I don't feel the need to fix him. I'm not his mum or his shrink. I just don't agree with generalising that he is instantly Cazador 2.0 when he game itself shows he doesn't behave the same way he does. Thank you LiryFire for your post, you summed up my feelings perfectly. Then, I'm very sorry for taking your post the wrong way. I guess I made an ass out myself by jumping the gun. I am truly sorry.
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Not one single word from the Ascended Astarion (not at the end with Karlach, not at the end with the tentacle) has ever hurt me. It's only the aggressive-spawn-fans with their over-the-top morals that have done that. It's like they want to fix not only Astarion, but me as well. I saw so many of these aggressive and unforgiving posts on YT when watching ascended Astarion vids. It's so deranged... Just because you like to roleplay your game a certain way the morality brigade has to step in and lecture you that you play your game wrong and that you're a horrible person, lol. I could argue that pursuing Astarion in the first place shows moral ambiguity. He's not Prince Charming and never will be. Then, I'm very sorry for taking your post the wrong way. I guess I made an ass out myself by jumping the gun.
I am truly sorry. Apology accepted and appreciated.
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
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I agree that noone should be judged for playing the game however they want, but I'd suggest we don't import beefs from elsewhere to these forums.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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enthusiast
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I agree that noone should be judged for playing the game however they want, but I'd suggest we don't import beefs from elsewhere to these forums. This reply was under my comment thread, but without mentioning my name, so I guess it's a messege to everyone. But I get it, okay!
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
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I agree that noone should be judged for playing the game however they want, but I'd suggest we don't import beefs from elsewhere to these forums. This reply was under my comment thread, but without mentioning my name, so I guess it's a messege to everyone. But I get it, okay! Thank you! And yes, it was a recommendation I thought various folk could usefully bear in mind, rather than being directed at just one specific individual.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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enthusiast
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Apology accepted. That's okay He's not Prince Charming and never will be. YT is so... jeez. Astarion seems to have hit a lot of strings with a lot of different people - but we've gotten a cacaphony so far, often, on YT. I'm so happy to hear the melody here. I'd like the fandom to finally come to an understanding with those who think, reason, understand Ascension. To look at Ascension from unexpected different daring, multi-moral sides, as well as just Astarion. Or at least just enjoyed their own. At the end of the day, it's just a character. And I find that kind of fun. Astarion is silver-haired, refined, he looks like Prince Charming. Also Astarion: "Hungry for slaughter." In a way, he has the real-medieval-ness of a prince in him. I really thank you for the improvements you suggested to his quest. 9, 15 point <3 and It's all such gold. I hope Larian is listening. Keep well, and good luck to you! 
Last edited by LiryFire; 11/11/23 05:11 PM.
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Speaking of the very OP here, I gotta say, I was quite saddened that Astarion's days as a magistrate weren't really fleshed out in the game itself. Like he mentions it once and that's it. Same like you I do truly believe that there would be more to sink our teeth into in the Upper City had it not been cut. One would argue that there are some leftovers of that in the game still, if you talk to the Magic Mirror in Bighted Village as Astarion, you get very very interesting dialogue options. ![[Linked Image from cdn.discordapp.com]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/442331143212105748/1172938548614279279/20231111092712_1.jpg) His home, his real home was in the Upper City as far as I am aware. Imagine if we'd be able to visit it had Upper City not been cut. what would we find there? But then again, Astarion went through a crapload of changes in the game... in EA his background originally was a noble, then if you look at the character sheets for Astarion (from the pdf Larian has provided together with the digital artbook) his background is listed as 'courtesan' which is very, very interesting. And obviously in the game itself there is no courtesan, so they gave him charlatan. It's almost as if Larian was quite conflicted on what to do with Astarion. But I quite agree, they mellowed him out a bit too much, I loved seeing 'Astarion disapproves' every 5min back in EA. Getting on his good side used to be really damn hard, in comparison to release. Heck, I used to speculate that if someone, even romanced, was likely to betray our Tav, it'd be Astarion, especially if we kept on fully committing to 'good-two-shoe' decisions in the game. And imagine my surprise that the only way to truly turn someone against us on release is to support Minthara against Karlach and Wyll. That, and well, being Durge'iest of Durge's in act 3 (making Jaheira and Minsc really unhappy). Oh and the multitude of ways the game really wants to kill Lae'zel off. But aside from all that Astarion couldn't be happier? Why? I really miss the old EA Astarion not gonna lie. Just like I miss the old Shadowheart. But that ain't the subject of this topic.  And when it comes to the entire Ascended vs Spawn debate, I am truly torn, cause I see both sides and like both sides too. On one hand, if you take Astarion's word for it, he truly becomes an objectively better person if he doesn't go through the ritual, but on the other there's is that whole vampire dark fantasy if he does. Does he become a better, kinder person post Ascension? No. Would I trust him irl with such power? No. Should I apply my irl morals to a video game character that can swing both ways? No. This entire debacle is really reminiscent of Twilight's Edward vs Jacob, and yes, I will admit, I like Twilight, it's trash but I like it for what it is. Or, The Vampire Diaries': Stefan vs Damon. Or True Blood's: Bill vs Eric. Or Buffy's: Angel vs Spike. And now BG3 joins that entire dilemma with Spawn vs Ascendant, at least we don't have 2 separate characters fighting for our hearts, just one character with entirely 2 different character arcs he can go down. And yeah, I believe these types of discussions will continue. It's in our human nature to pick sides, tribalism and all that. Us vs Them. Just my 5 cents.
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Astarion is silver-haired, refined, he looks like Prince Charming. Also Astarion: "Hungry for slaughter." In a way, he has the real-medieval-ness of a prince in him. That's so ironic and devious in a way. He looks like a prince but totally isn't one.  Maybe that's the origin of the whole fixing him thing hysteria - if he became the good guy then he would be this Prince Charming, the dream guy to many that he even mocks if broken up with post-ascension. I really thank you for the improvements you suggested to his quest. 9, 15 point <3 and It's all such gold. I hope Larian is listening. Keep well, and good luck to you! Thanks and happy you liked them! Feel free to add your own ideas and feedback, of course. If we make our voices heard it might increase the chance that things get improved.
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I think it's important to keep in mind that we actually know very little about Astarion's background. All of the stuff about him being a corrupt magistrate who sold people to Cazador was cut content/got re-written and nothing of it appears in the final game, which makes it non-canon. I don't think that backstory would serve his character well anyway, to be frank. Him becoming a horrible person because of 200 years of abuse and slavery is a lot more interesting than just being a monster from the start already. Him being a slaver who became a slave turns his story into one of punishment rather than tragedy.
All we know for sure is that he was definitely a magistrate. I assume he was probably already an arrogant asshole before he was turned, and maybe corrupt to some extent, but not a terrible person. We can see from his reaction to seeing Sebastian and his story about how he was punished for refusing to bring someone back to Cazador that he still had at least some morals and a conscience at that point.
What's interesting is that one of the hag's vicious mockery lines (or maybe it was a different context, I don't remember) about Astarion calls him "a ratcatcher who became a judge," heavily implying that he comes from a poor background and somehow either worked his way up to become a magistrate or simply deceived his way into the position (I'd bet on the latter). In the Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms game, Astarion's character sheet has "Forged Patents of Nobility" under belongings, which supports this theory. But since that isn't officially part of Baldur's Gate 3, I wouldn't take it as canon, moreso an indication of what the writers had in mind.
In any case although I'd like to know more details about his past, I doubt we'll get them. A huge point of Astarion's story is starting a NEW life post-Cazador, and in his graveyard scene he makes it very clear that the old him is dead and gone. I don't think Larian has any intentions of dredging up his former life.
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enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2023
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Actual, canon information: "Two hundred years ago, Astarion was a corrupt elite of Baldur’s Gate with a taste for power and a hunger for eternal life. It wasn’t long before these desires became a nightmarish reality. " Baldurs Gate 3 Digital Deluxe Artbook & He was definitely a magistrate once upon a time. It's not much, but it's there! Remember this, too. That little drop that's so tempting. I know: "the rat catcher that became a lord"? Isn't that what it is? During the battle with the brain? It's not clear without context. Idle Champions of the Forgotten Realms Nice theory, and his coming from a non-nobility background might explain why he was so desirous of more for himself. Fandom now thinks that only 200 years of slavery plays a role in this character's story. Do they? Why? Did Stephen Rooney write about it? The trauma is just part of his personality. Maybe that's why there's such hatred for those who choose to ascend. Because it's not just a circle of abuse. It's also big line - this line of Astarion's Desire and Ambition. Which started before slavery - it's canon, he wanted power before slavery. It's much interesting for me to watch a horrible man being tortured for 200 years and going through a difficult moral conflict. And how the flames want the freedom to do anything, more than they used to. A horrible person - there is no clear definition. A person is first a baby without a single sin. Why does he become terrible? Let's see: Astarion sympathizes with Sebastian, the children, but he still hungers for power and thinks about doing the ritual. It's one thing - Sebastian and the kids. It's another - two thieves, one holding a knife to a woman's throat and the other taking everything of value in her house. Would you be a bloody monster if you rid the world of their kind? And get some reward from the vampire clan as a little bonus - what's the harm? Maybe he'd helped slave traders with paper fraud, but hadn't done it himself, hadn't seen it, and was just 'pfft, some criminal thugs-gur was vampire food. Well? Are you gonna kill me now, darling?" - just a thought. And if I told that two thieves were cheated out of all their money and their little sister hadn't eaten for two days. People with power killed the rebels, those who rose up against them and felt: bitterness, nothing, or the pleasure of victory. Then they would go home to their families and love them so much that they would give their lives for them. Layered onions. I love it so much. I would even dare to say that: it's worth taking into account even the cut out\rewritten content and the conflict of the writers (?) and the cut out upper city. To trace the idea and reasoning of the author. And how the story changed, why and what idea remained. It can be a punishment and a tragedy at the same time. I mean, that's cool! Should Astarion be punished for such things, the way Cazador was punished? He never forgave him anything. That's wrong. Or is it? Should we judge for past actions or only for bad ones? It's Scales Astarion had some pretty wacky Scales, I think. Well, some people kill him immediately and keep him in their pocket until act 3 to see "what happens?" For me personally, the idea of "200 years of slavery and that's why he's like this" didn't work immediately. I saw that something was hidden here. The actual artbook showed me that. Astarion had ambition. Slavery had an impact, of course. But that's only part of it. One prism of trauma is not what the author intended. A "new life" after Cazador makes sense, it's really important. His new life has pretty much begun with Act 1. It's not like Astarion is a big, evil vampire blob (Ascended by the way not blob too as I think). He doesn't mind being nice, but he sees power as freedom, he wants it. And in general, he enjoy power too, to influence someone's mind - he likes it. He has morals and a conscience. He understands that, he just chooses the easier path, and if it's let him be evil, so be it! Maybe after his sins, he doesn't deserve power? Or maybe he doesn't deserve the full freedom because there is a seed of evil in his mind. Or not? (I'm 100% convinced by his charms, so long eternity to the King) For me, this backstory will serve Astarion well, so it will shine even brighter. I'd read every line about his past. If he's terrible, bring it on. (that wine, get moOooOre) It's Stephen Rooney and Larian's decision. And I hope nothing affects their decision.
Last edited by LiryFire; 12/11/23 03:53 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2020
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Him becoming a horrible person because of 200 years of abuse and slavery is a lot more interesting than just being a monster from the start already. Him being a slaver who became a slave turns his story into one of punishment rather than tragedy. I disagree. An abuser who became a victim and his worldview crushed (probably mostly thanks to Tav) is much more interesting to me. How to treat such person? Give him the second chance of punish him? It's fascinating and ambiguous. The abuse cycle is common trope and more black-and-white, a victim who was an abuser - not so much. I'd love to see this version of Astarion's story - it was the reason why I bought this game 3 years ago. Joke's on me I guess.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2023
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We can see from his reaction to seeing Sebastian and his story about how he was punished for refusing to bring someone back to Cazador that he still had at least some morals and a conscience at that point. He does have a conscience but he will still choose himself over helping others. That lesson from Cazador was the last straw for him. When he sees Sebastian he tells him he'd save him but as soon as Tav pulls him to the side he talks about wanting to sacrifice him. He's just lying to the captives. He previously demonstrates what a great liar he can be when he smoothly promises his brethren salvation when they try to obduct him. Fandom now thinks that only 200 years of slavery plays a role in this character's story. Do they? Why?
Did Stephen Rooney write about it? The trauma is just part of his personality.
Maybe that's why there's such hatred for those who choose to ascend.
Because it's not just a circle of abuse.
It's also big line - this line of Astarion's Desire and Ambition. Which started before slavery - it's canon, he wanted power before slavery. Yes, power is and always was his main goal. He wants to be able to do whatever he desires, that's what being free means to him and power is the means to having it all. The ritual gives him exactly what he wants - independence, protection from the sun, loss of blood hunger, power much greater than what Cazador had. He takes everything from him like he did to him (his life's work, his palace, information on important citizens, etc.) and never has to feel like a slave to anyone and doesn't have to rely on anyone to be safe. During the ritual, if refused or stopped in the middle, he shows just how important this is to him. He immediately stops caring about Tav and wishes them a painful death or outright attacks them. Out of 4 possible outcomes when he's facing Cazador, there is only 1 where he remains a spawn and stays on good terms with Tav, and even then I don't believe he will be over it entirely. The whole game he talks about wanting power, loves the abilities the worm gives him, threatens you if you deny him the second worm, talks about controlling the cult, world domination, being a king and master, etc. Then suddenly when he can claim it all, 1 persuasion check from Tav comes up, and he's instantly "fixed" afterwards. I really don't buy his 'I'm a good guy now behaviour'. He claims he doesn't regret it after the Cazador encounter but the moment Tav dumps him, he rubs his sacrifice in their face, gives them a death threat and talks about commanding his army of spawn. I think he will stay power-hungry no matter what, it's his inherent trait, his personal drive. Spawn path with continued romance might just be delaying the inevitable. Some people say he changes so much after the ritual - I see it as him actually feeling free enough to be who he always was deep down and wanted to be and he immediately starts acting it out. He doesn't have to pretend anymore, he shows Tav the extent of his darkness, he's comfortable with it and wants to share everything with Tav who he sees as his accomplice and right hand. Then it's up to Tav to decide if he's too much for them to handle or if they do like that side of him. I would even dare to say that: it's worth taking into account even the cut out\rewritten content and the conflict of the writers (?) and the cut out upper city. To trace the idea and reasoning of the author. And how the story changed, why and what idea remained. I agree, it's a good point of reference. He only has a couple of things cut from the game, it's not a complete rewrite like Wyll's character and story.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Nov 2023
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I concur with your Discord writings. It is time to banish these purported trauma survivors from the fanbase. ![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6FmPF1F/mmmmmmmmkkkkk.png)
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