Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

I found all the endings to be pretty unsatisfactory. I spend all this time with these characters, getting to know their stories and helping them with their macguffins, and then it's just done byeee. It all seemed so sudden. I guess I took the road to Avernus ending with Karlach to be a possible segue into BG4. Good, on one hand. On the other, it means she was little more than a sacrifice for a potential cliffhanger.

For the most part, I loved the storytelling in BG3, but there did seem to be giant chunks of it that resulted in, "Well, why did I even bother at all, then?" I mean, the story was still good, but many of the various story endings seem dead.

Also, knowing the dismal endings for some characters, I purposefully no longer make much use of them during the game. The vicissitudes of life are such that I don't need a reminder of all its unfairness in my escapist entertainment. Part of the joy of video games as escapism is being able to turn a problem you can't fix in your head to a problem you can fix in Faerun, or wherever else you might journey. So I tend to spend very little time with Karlach and Lae'zel. Which is too bad, as Karlach is an awesome character to have in the party and so well-done overall.

Karlach is one of the biggest problems in the game that one wants to fix... and you just can't.

I know all characters last until the end, but traveling with someone you know is doomed is just depressing. I like the idea of bringing a more "permadeath" concept from pen-and-paper D&D to video D&D. Back in my day, being able to brag that you had a 12th level wizard used to mean something (and get off my lawn!).

But yeah, it seems like it would be hard to please the people that wanted D&D in virtual form AND the people who wanted a video game loosely set in a D&D world.

I guess that kind of encapsulates the problem with Karlach. At some level, video games provide a payoff. We struggle, we fight, we win. Then we get paid. That's the contract. The new loot. The new level abilities. Whatever the prize, if there isn't one, the struggle becomes empty. Just a way one passes the time with no sense of accomplishment at the end. Well, with pen-and-paper D&D, you didn't need that catharsis. The catharsis was the meeting of fellow freaks who gathered around that old oak dining table for way too many hours at a time to go spelunking the sewers of Stormreach.

In a video game, that community IS the characters. Nihilistic endings sort of ruin the catharsis of playing in the first place (for those of us who need that sort of thing). I'm not sure if this is a gap that can be bridged between in-person and single-player gaming.

I don't really think letting us use divine intervention or the True Res scroll to wave the problem away is a good solution or something I actually want to see, I'm more just using them as examples of how having tools that seem like they should be able to address the problem, then not being allowed to actually use them, is incredibly frustrating.
(the true res scroll is also a reminder that if you give D&D players magic that powerful, they *will* find uses for it you never considered, but that's a different topic)
Obviously any actually satisfactory ending would involve serious effort to reach whatever conclusion you get to, same as the other origin character quests. Hell (heh), I don't think the 'back to Avernus' end is necessarily impossible to make work better than it does now, it's just in its current form with no follow-up it still feels incredibly bleak.

Just thought I'd throw in the recent Q&A with Sam part one, they're doing the second part today on Twitch. They've covered the almighty question "Which Ending do you like best/is the best according to you?" in this stamp: youtu.be/bT0SKUdfp88?feature=shared&t=4411
For those that can't watch: They flat out repeat what she's said on Fazer's twitch stream, which is that they don't get paid to have an opinion, they don't have an opinion, it's your game, you choose, all are valid. Their job as an actor is to present the story in a meaningful way and given how "salty" (split) the community is regarding the endings given, they think that exactly what they managed to do (because if it wouldn't matter, people wouldn't care as much. If Karlach wasn't portrayed so people care for her, they'd not give a shit about the endings).

I'm personally in camp "I know death and I know mortality, I know of terminal illnesses and chronic pains on a personal level and I try to escape it all through games that let me make a change I can't make in real life, for characters that mean a ton to me". But I value those who feel seen and want to go the cathartic route in their stories. That's why I don't want the endings we're given now to vanish - I want those options for the stories we want to choose. But the actual LACK of a fix/better option is what bugs me, cause every other Origin has that choice for us, along less positive/more negative ones. And that's the point of this game, which Sam has also stated multiple times during panels: This is YOUR game, this is YOUR story, these are YOUR characters. What the cast thinks doesn't matter - it's your gameplay that does. And it does, you can affect it, in all instances but with Karlach.

Which is why we're gathered here today


#JusticeForKarlach

P.S. Sam's Q&A stream part two airs in 2h from the second I post this.

Thanks for the summary, I've been eyeing that video the whole day, but wasn't able to watch it still. I do agree wholeheartedly that this loud divide over the ending, regardless of any action or inaction taken about it, is a compliment to the character first and foremost.


You know, just theoretically - I do not expect anything like that to actually be added in the game - it would be fun to be able to roleplay a fully desperate Tav here. I know that's how I see mine. A wish spell is an overkill, sure, considering the level of the adventure and such, but it's still a pity that, say, Raphael wasn't in any way utilized here. The devil talks the big talk about Tav coming to him when all the hope runs out, but never tries to exploit a thing that seems far more hopeless than the tadpole situation by Act 3 - a friend/lover dying without a fix. Like, I don't even necessarily say we should've been able to actually bargain on that point - story limitations are a thing (although, again, would be fun to actually roleplay a desperate character making huge mistakes, perhaps even mirror it with Ketheric), but like. Feels like it'd be appropriate to mention it, at least. (And then, idk, have Karlach threaten to explode you both right now and there if you DARE to consider a freaking devil pact on her behalf, thus closing the negotiations :D)

The fix doesnt need to be wish spells or true res scrolls but the game's whole vibe(if you go the hero path i mean) is a dnd fantasy setting where youre a hero trying to save as many people as you can. Not some 40k grimdark where the ending is revealed to be ash and nothingness it just leaves the ending kind of hollow. Even if the developers wanted to put an ending that isnt "happy" give me a final fight i cant win without dieing in the process.


#JusticeForKarlach

You know, just theoretically - I do not expect anything like that to actually be added in the game - it would be fun to be able to roleplay a fully desperate Tav here. I know that's how I see mine. A wish spell is an overkill, sure, considering the level of the adventure and such, but it's still a pity that, say, Raphael wasn't in any way utilized here. The devil talks the big talk about Tav coming to him when all the hope runs out, but never tries to exploit a thing that seems far more hopeless than the tadpole situation by Act 3 - a friend/lover dying without a fix. Like, I don't even necessarily say we should've been able to actually bargain on that point - story limitations are a thing (although, again, would be fun to actually roleplay a desperate character making huge mistakes, perhaps even mirror it with Ketheric), but like. Feels like it'd be appropriate to mention it, at least. (And then, idk, have Karlach threaten to explode you both right now and there if you DARE to consider a freaking devil pact on her behalf, thus closing the negotiations :D)[/quote]


this would also be awsome to see, really cool idea

#JusticeForKarlach

Visiting Avernus, then engine fix in Upper City with Gondians. I'm waiting for the removed content in the DE

But there is no removed content, isn't it? That supposed leak from the steam post turned out to be fake unless I missed something. So that's story overhaul, or rather complete retcon considering what VA said and the fact that she's the only companion that can be turned into the mindflayer

They cut the upper city content from the game and the upper city is hinted to be where karlach can get her engine fixed. If the data miners are right

Honestly? At this point, i'd go 100% with that. Make us sweat for it. Or at the very least, add some 'trade off'.

100% agreed with that idea, don't make it easy but make it possible

So they find anything? All I know is they managed to dig up lines about Minthara's pregnancy and the epilogues narrated by Withers, rest of the big post about cut content was proven fake, or at least impossible to confirm which is kinda the same thing considering the extensive data mining that was going on

I think there is. Swen told in some interview, that Upper city was fully playable and they removed it from the game two weeks before the release. The hints like enriched infernal ores which were not properly removed from the game supports that theory, that the final fix was possible in the Upper City. Who knows what is true and what is only speculation.

But it makes complete sense for me. You go though the whole game and now you enter Upper city where you save Karlach in the last minute and then there is epic game ending in this location.

Ah well you're probably right then I hadn't heard that and I haven't heard anything recent. Rip still gonna keep hoping though.

#JusticeForKarlach

That'd be awsome to see! It'd be so nice to play a desperate tav in that kind of scenario getting to save karlach for real.

#JusticeForKarlach

That's still speculation, or more like hopeful thinking. The fact that she's the only companion that can be turned into the mindflayer is a very strong hint that there were never any plans to make the engine fixable. The upper city likely would've had more explanation why it can't be fixed so this is propably all we can hope for in DE, unless they decide to completely retcon her story. That is if there will be any DE considering Sven is already talking about the next game

I think for me the most we can hope for is an epilogue fix if you meet certain conditions.

An expanded quest to fix Karlach would have to change too much to be in the purview of a DE.

I HOPE the upcoming epilogues deliver but I dunno... Karlach's ending comes off like it was written by an author whose just in love with their own ideas even if it makes no sense. Karlach seems like a vanity project for a try-hard.

By the way, a genuine question since I've never went the mindflayer route for me or for companions: is she the only one who can be turned, or is she the only one who explicitly offers? I think someone mentioned somewhere that the other companions also could be chosen in the correct circumstances (if you talk to [spoiler] as them, maybe?), but I obviously never checked.

Update from Sam's second part of Q&A (VOD will come up on yt later and be indexed so keep your eyes open for that):

Sam got asked about DLC/more content and said that they have no say in anything, asking about anything in regards to new lines, new parts of the game or endings is pointless as they'd be breaking NDA. They're not allowed to comment much on the endings still as it's not out ln Xbox and frankly, they're just doing their job. Their part in this is to create a believable character that moves you, which I made sure they knew from us here that we see and think they truly have. Everything said in interviews is more or less the same thing and what they find particularly amazing is how many people have found solace and relatability in Karlach. They're grateful for each and every thank you they'd received, repeating what they've said in the interview we discussed 2 pages ago.

Sam also said not to bully Larian into anything as they will almost certainly NOT makenit happen then. But to remember they're also giant trolls so be careful what you wish for! Either way, Sam has NO say in what gets added, cannot comment on whether they've done anything for the game since release, you'll just have to wait and see and/or direct any feedback to Larian and not the actors.

They're just doing their job and trying to do that in the most believable way possible.

She is the only one that can be turned. Other "can" be, but only if you're the one playing as them which makes it no different than turning your Tav into the squid, except there are some special dialogues like Mystra being able to bail out Gale. Karlach is the third option if you don't want to sacrifice MC or Orpheus