Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

I think you mean Mizora, not Minthara, but yeah, that's what I meant about "questions and fears". Personally I can freely be delusional (or maybe justified, who knows) in believing that my Tav (and perhaps friends later coming to help) can take Zariel down and all that, but it's also completely understandable that being told multiple times that a powerful archdevil will be coming for her relentlessly does not exactly instill confidence.

Wither's datamined lines do seem to imply that the default state of that ending is supposed to be "Karlach and whoever went with her are freaking decimating Zariel's forces and grow stronger for it", but they're not in the game, so. We'll see what actually makes it into the objective canon eventually.

I mean, they do make a good point - I'm sure there are actually lots of players in tough situations who related to the struggle and the hopelessness of it all. That can be cathartic in its own way. But we also saw multiple people in this thread alone who, on the contrary, didn't want to see their real life health problems being just as doomed in a fantasy game, so I guess a divisive ending stays divisive even on that standpoint.

At this point it's up to the writers (if it's up at all).

thats my exact plan lol

I will only accept karlachs current endings if they change all the other companions endings to be equally cynical and ''bittersweet''.
As it currently stands, and this has been discussed to death already, her story feels disjointed from the setting the story takes place in to the point of being ridiculous and forced(the fantasy equivalent of heart transplant surgeries dont exist in dnd apparently lol), so larian has to remove all the ''magical ways'' the other companions get good endings to make the story more cohesive and realistic!

Being mostly sarcastic. Mostly. But also with all due respect, saying that if karlachs story got changed it would cheapen the current endings is bullshit. Karlachs quest needs to be given the same amount of polish that the other companions get, where her story isnt just railroaded into the same ending regardless of our actions.
And hey if karlach indeed did get a more polished quest line where we can more meaningfully roleplay what path her story takes, people who wanna experience the ''we did all we could for karlach™ ending for karlach are still free to do so. I personally dont like when a game set in a dnd world forces a sad ending on me telling me theres nothing to be done while everything and everyone else in the world can be fixed to an outrageous degree(gales magic nuke in his chest being just one example), but maybe thats just me.

exactly this tbh. her story is already bittersweet as a poor tiefling girl who lost everything to devils and was forced into slavery. it doesnt need to be as dark and depressing as it is.

I have to say, I agree with Norrec: Any interview done with the VAs has to be taken with a grain of salt. This is their income, and you will always have to be careful with what you say publicly if you want to hired again - even by another company.
This is not me saying she didn't mean what she said - she might have. But I wouldn't take it as gospel.


As for the whole situation with her endings: I honestly would've been more okay with it, if we had gotten to actually try everything. There is so many loose threads that are sitting there with huge neon signs flashing above them and yet we don't get to check them out, and instead get hit with a "we did everything we could". It's irks me, as it feels like a cheap way of creating a dramatic ending just because you wanted one, made worse by Gale having a similar issue and just getting the easy way out.

I don't even want some magic fairytale ending, snapping your fingers to hex her problem away, quite the contrary. One good solution to the whole thing was posted by Kimba earlier. Allow us to actually work for it.

This, thank you. Her endings are purely to bait the player into 'tragedy' which is over the top in a setting like this when all the endings are sad. Literally i've seen streamers experiencing her endings and they were wondering what did they miss and how unfair her demise was. This alone should tell you enough considering the rest of companions can get their good endings - especially when romanced. Even the new cutscene wasn't fullfilling because it's just an already existing ending with some flavor. Even Astarion suffers from bad endings BUT, he's still alive and well and can live with the player without issues (except not being out in the sun anymore but even that can be 'fixed'. Something something about a cloak someone mentioned in his thread that can allow the vampire walk under the sun without issues - correct me if i'm wrong but i read something related to that in his thread)

Imo, a dlc alone could fix a lot of things regarding Karlach (but not make it be for Karlach only). It can just be adventures in Avernus or anything but you get a 'bonus' if you bring Karlach along and add some critical choices such as trade offs as long as it doesn't affect the romantic relationship the player has with her this much. If Larian deems it impossible to tweak Karlach's fate in the base game, the dlc alone can be a miracle.

You cannot make a character like Karlach and give her ALL doomed endings without hope. This is just cruel. Larian really thought we'd all be fine with that? Really? How it's possible that they didn't think ONCE to give her one good ending when you have like 5 other origin companions that have fleshed out storylines and good endings depending on your choices?

Crazy.

Edit: and even IF we could try everything, one good ending with some hope would do wonders for me. I certainly wouldn't want to do everything, get some 'explanations as to why her heart can't be fixed' and still get bad endings. Sorry, but this isn't for me. One good ending in the mix offers good balance and gives players more reasons to replay the game and try other outcomes.

yea i 100% agree. each other companion is given their good/happy ending and the best karlach can get is go to hell, die, or basically die(mindflayer). im really hoping we can get atleast info that larian is working on it. even if its in DLC.


#JusticeForKarlach

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. There is a datamined dialogue from patch 4 where it looks like they added another way to recruit Minthara because people asked for it enough. Does anyone have any info on her possibly getting a better ending in the game's code?

#JusticeForKarlach

I havent seen anything on here. I'm glad to hear they're adding stuff for minthara Maybe they're working on stuff for karlach. Here's hoping I'll keep on using the copium

#JusticeForKarlach

To be fair, Karlach already has the unique advantage of being the only companion with a mandatory Romance due to having the only exclusive trophy

That doesn't change her terribly dark and needlessly depressing ending though.

I can kind of sympathize with the difficulty the Forgotten Realms setting imposes on writers, especially if you're trying to have a tragic ending. I've DMed quite a few tabletop D&D games over the years, and one thing I always do is tell the players that, in my game, magic to raise the dead is not available casually or easily. If you're bringing someone back from the dead at all, it'll be a whole quest to achieve it. I do this because the ability to raise the dead messes with the ability to tell an interesting story- it's very hard to have a meaningful threat of death in a universe where your surviving friends can just pay a cleric to bring you back in a few days. Sort of like how time travel can totally remove any stakes from a story if you handle it badly.
The thing is though, within the context of BG3 specifically, the dead absolutely can be raised. There's even funny dialog from killing companions and then bringing them back. So when you take my character that has a scroll of True Resurrection in their pocket, who is themselves a cleric with the ability to call on the direct intervention of a god once, and then insist that no, actually there's simply no way to help my friend in desperate need, and give zero reason why I can't use any of the tools at my disposal that should absolutely work- that feels extremely arbitrary. On the other hand, as I think I've said before, I can absolutely get why something like the divine intervention ability isn't used this way- having to write around the player having a one-time "resolve this quest" button would be an absolute nightmare- but it doesn't change the frustration of being told "no, you can't do that" with zero reason why you can't.
(Well, actually you don't get told that, you just never get the option at all, but you know what I mean)

This is one of the major downfalls of computer gaming, the easy reset on death. There have been games with real consequences for failure but people complain the game is too hard. There are ways for players to introduce those consequences in their own personal play but would rather cheese the game mechanics and then complain about the game being to easy.

When I DMed I was like you. If a player died the party would go to try to find a major temple. At that temple the Priest would give them a task they had to complete, not require gold from them. The Priest would often allow the character to be raised but then the party had a time limit to complete the task or the player would die again, an expiration date if you will on the resurrection. I had a group once try to cheat a Temple for a resurrection. The character lived but they found that temple no longer offered them any services going forward and after a short time no temple of that God would offer them any services.

These types of consequences and nuanced play are really hard if not impossible to do properly in a computer RPG and so to keep the masses happy they introduce the easy resurrection system.

As for the specifics of Karlach. As a DM I would have allowed a way to "fix" her. However it would not be simple. A wish spell, as some have suggested, is SCARY to use and should be an act of desperation. Various other heal spells would require either a VERY high level priest and/or VERY expensive spell components and sacrifices. As with resurrections I would have required a very difficult task to be completed in order for the casting to be done. (money would not be enough) I would further add a time limit in based on Karlach's needs to add more "drama" to the questing. This is all however outside the realm of the BG3 project, would make a nice added content item

These are very good points and i get where planning around a wish spell or divine intervention is a nightmare to plan for from the perspective of developers but like you said these are all tools in the game available to us and should be used. As far as a wish spell i think having to give up crazy amounts of money, materials, or time to get some kind of fix would be really awsome and still lead to amazing story telling. I hope we can get some word from larian someday about epilogues for the companions, maybe in a DLC or in some kind of definitive edition.


#JusticeForKarlach

I found all the endings to be pretty unsatisfactory. I spend all this time with these characters, getting to know their stories and helping them with their macguffins, and then it's just done byeee. It all seemed so sudden. I guess I took the road to Avernus ending with Karlach to be a possible segue into BG4. Good, on one hand. On the other, it means she was little more than a sacrifice for a potential cliffhanger.

For the most part, I loved the storytelling in BG3, but there did seem to be giant chunks of it that resulted in, "Well, why did I even bother at all, then?" I mean, the story was still good, but many of the various story endings seem dead.

Also, knowing the dismal endings for some characters, I purposefully no longer make much use of them during the game. The vicissitudes of life are such that I don't need a reminder of all its unfairness in my escapist entertainment. Part of the joy of video games as escapism is being able to turn a problem you can't fix in your head to a problem you can fix in Faerun, or wherever else you might journey. So I tend to spend very little time with Karlach and Lae'zel. Which is too bad, as Karlach is an awesome character to have in the party and so well-done overall.

Karlach is one of the biggest problems in the game that one wants to fix... and you just can't.

I know all characters last until the end, but traveling with someone you know is doomed is just depressing. I like the idea of bringing a more "permadeath" concept from pen-and-paper D&D to video D&D. Back in my day, being able to brag that you had a 12th level wizard used to mean something (and get off my lawn!).

But yeah, it seems like it would be hard to please the people that wanted D&D in virtual form AND the people who wanted a video game loosely set in a D&D world.

I guess that kind of encapsulates the problem with Karlach. At some level, video games provide a payoff. We struggle, we fight, we win. Then we get paid. That's the contract. The new loot. The new level abilities. Whatever the prize, if there isn't one, the struggle becomes empty. Just a way one passes the time with no sense of accomplishment at the end. Well, with pen-and-paper D&D, you didn't need that catharsis. The catharsis was the meeting of fellow freaks who gathered around that old oak dining table for way too many hours at a time to go spelunking the sewers of Stormreach.

In a video game, that community IS the characters. Nihilistic endings sort of ruin the catharsis of playing in the first place (for those of us who need that sort of thing). I'm not sure if this is a gap that can be bridged between in-person and single-player gaming.

I don't really think letting us use divine intervention or the True Res scroll to wave the problem away is a good solution or something I actually want to see, I'm more just using them as examples of how having tools that seem like they should be able to address the problem, then not being allowed to actually use them, is incredibly frustrating.
(the true res scroll is also a reminder that if you give D&D players magic that powerful, they *will* find uses for it you never considered, but that's a different topic)
Obviously any actually satisfactory ending would involve serious effort to reach whatever conclusion you get to, same as the other origin character quests. Hell (heh), I don't think the 'back to Avernus' end is necessarily impossible to make work better than it does now, it's just in its current form with no follow-up it still feels incredibly bleak.

Just thought I'd throw in the recent Q&A with Sam part one, they're doing the second part today on Twitch. They've covered the almighty question "Which Ending do you like best/is the best according to you?" in this stamp: youtu.be/bT0SKUdfp88?feature=shared&t=4411
For those that can't watch: They flat out repeat what she's said on Fazer's twitch stream, which is that they don't get paid to have an opinion, they don't have an opinion, it's your game, you choose, all are valid. Their job as an actor is to present the story in a meaningful way and given how "salty" (split) the community is regarding the endings given, they think that exactly what they managed to do (because if it wouldn't matter, people wouldn't care as much. If Karlach wasn't portrayed so people care for her, they'd not give a shit about the endings).

I'm personally in camp "I know death and I know mortality, I know of terminal illnesses and chronic pains on a personal level and I try to escape it all through games that let me make a change I can't make in real life, for characters that mean a ton to me". But I value those who feel seen and want to go the cathartic route in their stories. That's why I don't want the endings we're given now to vanish - I want those options for the stories we want to choose. But the actual LACK of a fix/better option is what bugs me, cause every other Origin has that choice for us, along less positive/more negative ones. And that's the point of this game, which Sam has also stated multiple times during panels: This is YOUR game, this is YOUR story, these are YOUR characters. What the cast thinks doesn't matter - it's your gameplay that does. And it does, you can affect it, in all instances but with Karlach.

Which is why we're gathered here today


#JusticeForKarlach

P.S. Sam's Q&A stream part two airs in 2h from the second I post this.

Thanks for the summary, I've been eyeing that video the whole day, but wasn't able to watch it still. I do agree wholeheartedly that this loud divide over the ending, regardless of any action or inaction taken about it, is a compliment to the character first and foremost.


You know, just theoretically - I do not expect anything like that to actually be added in the game - it would be fun to be able to roleplay a fully desperate Tav here. I know that's how I see mine. A wish spell is an overkill, sure, considering the level of the adventure and such, but it's still a pity that, say, Raphael wasn't in any way utilized here. The devil talks the big talk about Tav coming to him when all the hope runs out, but never tries to exploit a thing that seems far more hopeless than the tadpole situation by Act 3 - a friend/lover dying without a fix. Like, I don't even necessarily say we should've been able to actually bargain on that point - story limitations are a thing (although, again, would be fun to actually roleplay a desperate character making huge mistakes, perhaps even mirror it with Ketheric), but like. Feels like it'd be appropriate to mention it, at least. (And then, idk, have Karlach threaten to explode you both right now and there if you DARE to consider a freaking devil pact on her behalf, thus closing the negotiations :D)

The fix doesnt need to be wish spells or true res scrolls but the game's whole vibe(if you go the hero path i mean) is a dnd fantasy setting where youre a hero trying to save as many people as you can. Not some 40k grimdark where the ending is revealed to be ash and nothingness it just leaves the ending kind of hollow. Even if the developers wanted to put an ending that isnt "happy" give me a final fight i cant win without dieing in the process.


#JusticeForKarlach