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Wow i didn’t know any of that. Daisy sounds soo much better than emperor, so much juicy villain potential (the whole emperor thing is a huge fail. Especially the reveal of who he really is. I was like WTF, not in a good sense).

I reached the level cap very soon into act 3, having 60+ hours more to play. If they add upper city, they must raise the cap or completely overhaul the xp gains throughout the game, something like 4 levels per act.

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The Daisy change is like the biggest '' sometimes the audience is wrong '' thing ever imo.
If people really didn't take the hint then I wish they had just added a '' lover '' tag or something in big bold letters so you couldn't possibly miss it ( something tells me people would find a way to miss it anyways lmao ).

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I'm going against the common wisdom here and say that I much prefer the existing emperor incarnation.

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To be honest, the only issue I had with the Daisy implementation that we had in EA was that it took your character away from you and told you what you thought and felt about something - it was creepy and rapey, but that alone wasn't the problem; the problem was that outside of it the game rules that you found it enticing and appealing and alluring and tempting and you had no capability of telling anyone otherwise... so it left you in a situation where you might repeatedly reject the advances of the character, and have them continue to move on you and make increasing degrees of physical contact despite your continued rejections... and then to have the game turn around and go "yeah, you liked that." The issue would have been easily solved if they'd given players more opportunity to define to the game and to other characters, how they felt about the situation, and note that they felt it was intrusive and violating, if they indeed felt so. This feedback was given, in great volume, but Larian decided that the correct change was to rip it all out and write something entirely new at the last minute.

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Originally Posted by Niara
To be honest, the only issue I had with the Daisy implementation that we had in EA was that it took your character away from you and told you what you thought and felt about something - it was creepy and rapey, but that alone wasn't the problem; the problem was that outside of it the game rules that you found it enticing and appealing and alluring and tempting and you had no capability of telling anyone otherwise... so it left you in a situation where you might repeatedly reject the advances of the character, and have them continue to move on you and make increasing degrees of physical contact despite your continued rejections... and then to have the game turn around and go "yeah, you liked that." The issue would have been easily solved if they'd given players more opportunity to define to the game and to other characters, how they felt about the situation, and note that they felt it was intrusive and violating, if they indeed felt so. This feedback was given, in great volume, but Larian decided that the correct change was to rip it all out and write something entirely new at the last minute.
Given how your character had to be "creepy and rapey" for Daisy to appear (albeit telepathically), it was only fair, all things considered.

Double standards are a pervasive thing, aren't they? Meanwhile the Emperor does his damndnest to initiate tentacle hentai without any prompting or previous signs of trust/intimacy from the PC, but somehow THAT is perfectly fine and acceptable and you are a bigot(tm) for thinking otherwise.

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This thread becoming more speculative and headcanon-y by the day.


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Care to elucidate on that, Dex? I'm not sure what you mean or what you're referring to.

No double standard here, Brainer - Like I said - the rapey element of it wasn't, on its own, the problem. The problem was how the game handled your character after it, forcing interpretations onto you and telling you how you felt about it. The game can force anything it wants on my character, if it deems it appropriate, but it does not get to tell me how I feel about those violations; that is the thing that made it less than acceptable. There is no double standard - yes, I had to use the tadpole to impress upon a goblin the mental sense that I was to be obeyed when it was otherwise not inclined to do so... but that did not come with a helping of me telling the game that the goblin enjoyed being brain-raped by me. I didn't tell the goblin that it liked it, and force the goblin to agree that it did.

I've not played the post-release content that replaced the daisy system yet, and I can't comment on it - I was talking only about what was wrong with the Daisy system we were first presented with, and the problem was the game intruding on our right to define how we felt about certain things, at a personal character level; they could even have intimated that we had those feelings of joy and love and euphoria, coming off the encounter, as long as it was made clear that those were external feelings coming over us from an external source, that we could define for ourselves, in the now, afterwards, how welcome or unwelcome they were... at least, that was the primary problem I personally had with it... Because personally, I don't have a single character who, if she asks a stranger a question about who they are, and they respond by invading her personal space and touching her intimately... and who, if she then tells to leave her alone and not touch her, responds be enacting even closer physical contact, and further intimate touches... is ever going to come away from that and go "Yeah, that was hot and I was super tempted by the hotness and allure of it"... but that is what the game forced us to do. I would not have had a problem with the Daisy system at all (at least as much as we saw of it at least), if I'd been able to come away from that and say "No, that was uncomfortable and I didn't like it." We couldn't.

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I always thought Daisy was the entity inside the artifact as opposed to the tadpole. I even made a theory thread about it during the early access period. All the early signs pointed toward that, imo.

That said, I don't like the Emperor approach. Don't get me wrong, I do like that the entity is inside the artifact and not the tadpole. I just don't like the choice of who the entity inside the artifact is. In fairness, though, I acknowledge how tough it must have been writing that part of the story and settling on something. They wanted to be surprising, but still keep everything setting appropriate for WotC.

*

I think concerns about the game telling you how you felt were overblown.

For one, it's only worth discussing if there are specific examples to analyze.

But my point would be simply this: we're talking about psionics. A tadpole inside a head. It's not a far stretch that the story might sometimes tell you that you "feel" this certain way, even if it comes as a surprise to you. There's a level of mental and emotional manipulation going on. If anything, there should have been more of that.

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Originally Posted by Dark_Ansem
Found on reddit but posted below for convenience.


A List of All Cut Content (Spoilers)

I've been working on compiling cut content datamined from various sources and while I had a ton of this information in my other thread I decided to forego the "review" or the complaints and simply list off the cut content that has been confirmed thus far.

1) The Upper City - The most obvious one. Swen himself talked about the "Affluent Upper City" just 2 weeks before launch and described as it being fully explorable and yet it's very noticeably absent from the final game.

2) Shar Worship - In EA the player was able to select Shar as a diety which game with it's own unique dialogue trees, especially when interacting with Shadowheart as a fellow Shar worshiper. Despite the fact that voice lines were datamined indicating this had functions well into Act 2, it was cut when the game launched.

3) Karlach's Ending - Datamined content shows that not only did Karlach have a full ending where her infernal engine was fixed and that she survived, but that most of it was fully voiced and complete. However it required triggers from the Upper City portion of Baldur's Gate and when that was cut, so was Karlach's Act 3 storyline. What we have behind have been confirmed to be Karlach's "fail state" endings which were meant to only play if the player neglected her quest chain.

4) Minthara's Story - Minthara was meant to have a much deeper story, including a pregnancy. These were likely cut due to Minthara being a late stage addition to our roster but dialogue lines remain in the games files that show that not only did Minthara have a lot more content for herself but your other companions had a lot more to say about it.

5) Halsin's Story - Another late addition to the roster, Halsin was originally intended to have a great deal more endgame content involving the Druid circle, but this appears to have been cut more early on than some of the other items thus far.

6) Raphael the Merchant - Originally Raphael was meant to be a fully viable option to remove your tadpole, in fact the "Soul Coin" items that you collect in game where originally meant to be a powerful alternative currency accepted only by Raphael in exchange for possibly retrieving your soul as well as a long list of incredibly powerful artifacts from the House of Hope that would be sold by Raphael himself.

7) Avernus - An entire area of the game. Avernus was meant to be fully explorable and of similar size to the Underdark Area of Act 1. It would be a source not only for Soul Coins but other rare materials, highly difficult fights, and special content for Karlach.

8) Tav the Dark Urge - A lot of people were both surprised and excited to see the addition of The Dark Urge origin as the Bhaalspawn/Evil option that was missing from EA. As it turns out, Tav was originally the Dark Urge and they were all one origin. Tav was meant to be Bhaalspawn and separating the two seems to be what caused the narrative divide between the Dead Three storyline and the Mindflayer plot.

9) Omeluum's Ring - In the EA version of the game this ring would block your Tadpole entirely. It could not grow, it could not grow stronger, and you could not use Illithid powers. In the launch version this ring prevents you from being charmed despite Omeluum still stating that it blocked the influence of the Elder Brain/Absolute.

10) Bhaal and Orin versus the Creche - An entire Act 2 battle was cut in which Bhaal's forces, led by Orin, attacked the Githyanki creche which led to a fight where you either sided with one or the other or had a massive 3-way fight on your hands.

11) Orin and the Dragon - Orin was meant to corrupt a Githyank red dragon, leading to a boss fight against a Slayer-formesque Dragon.

12) The Hag Coven in Act 2 and 3 - You may notice that accepting Auntie Ethels help in the first Act can lead to a negative effect when fighting Hags. You may also notice that despite Auntie Ethel having letters from other Hags in her basement, she is the only one you encounter. Originally there was meant to be a full three act story involving the Hag coven including the mysterious "M" who seems to have been their leader.

13) Epilogues - Full epilogue cutscenes have been datamined that varied greatly depending on your choices. These were the "17K ending variations" that Larian told us about, yet they are completely absent in the final game leading only to a fade to black scene at the end of the game.

14) Cazador's Story - Originally Cazador was meant to play a huge role in the Upper City of Baldur's Gate, including being a huge political power. Datamined content also shows that originally he was meant to be a potential ally in the final push against the Absolute.

15) Banite Cultists - The game features both Bhaal and Myrkul cultists rather heavily but Bane is reduced to Gortash alone. Despite the fact that they had full and finished assets for both armor, weapons, and some events the Banites were cut from the final game.

16) Act 1 Minsc - Minsc was meant to be recruited at the end of Act 1 but was cut and pushed back into the later game.

17) Dialogue and Events - Even from Act 1 itself, thousands of lines of dialogue and companion events were cut from the final game. Some of them were even fully voiced and ready to be implemented in game but also referenced other content that ended up on the cutting room floor.

18) Bhaal, Myrkul and Bane as Deities - Cleric's were meant to be fully able to select the Dead Three from the list of Deities. There were even special dialogues in game for player's who played as a Paladin and then multiclassed at least 1 level of Cleric on top and selected one of the Dead Three.

19) Daisy - It's not a secret that Daisy was cut from the game after the last EA release and replaced with "The Guardian." Originally Daisy was representative of the tadpole in your head, not the Emperor, and would attempt to seduce your character into staying in the meadow by the river with her forever. A happy life with an imaginary dream lover while your body underwent ceramorphosis and was lost to you forever. Daisy was such an important part of the plot that both of the games theme songs "Down by The River" and "The Power" are based entirely upon Daisy. Datamined content also shows there was originally an ending where players would embrace a romance with Daisy and give themselves over to the parasite, forever leaving their individual consciousness "down by the river" with Daisy.

20) Companions and the Illithid Worm - Originally companions were meant to accept or refuse Illithid gifts independently of the player choices. You could of course influence them through dialogue to decide who did and did not take the offered gifts, but ultimately it would be based on individual characters choices. This can still be seen in game as a bug when companions will awake after a long rest and claim to have received a gift from their Guardian and yet will have gained no actual power.

21) Romancing Jaheira - Apparently you were originally meant to have limited options to romance and sleep with Jaheira but these were cut last minute. It's unclear why.

22) Tadpole's and Consequences - There were originally meant to be severe consequences from using the Illithid powers too heavily and investing too much into the Tadpole powers. This seems obvious in game and yet ultimately in the release version goes nowhere as the ending is reduced to about 4 choices made in the last leg of the game. You can use all tadpoles or none and receive the same ending.

23) Act 3 Companion Dialogue - If you've noticed that companions have much less to say at the end of their journey it's because thousands of lines of dialogue were cut from companions in the final Act and all for various reasons. This also seems to be the source of most of the companion bugs that only appear in the final act as they're still trying to trigger events that simply no longer exist.

24) Multiple Cutscenes - There are multiple cutscenes that were present for Act 1 that are missing from the final game.

25) The Nautolid - A large portion of the Nautolid tutorial zone was cut in the final release, including cutscenes, dialogue, areas, and an optional fight with 2 injured Imps. This was likely cut for the sake of brevity more than anything.

26) Mol and Raphael - Isn't it odd how Mol will just escape from Raphael on her own and say it was "easy?" Well it turns out that's because they cut whatever the final leg of that quest was meant to be, instead they allow Mol to escape on her own which more or less skips to the end and around the cut content.

27) The Raven Queen - There was an entire second part of the storyline that was cut early on.

28) The Voice of Bane - It's possible to have a brief conversation with Bane, but it remains incomplete as the dialogue is unvoiced for some reason.

29) The Wither's Epilogue - WIther's was meant to narrate an epilogue for the players, to what extent is unsure but instead WIther's is left with a single event in the entire game when post-credit's he can be seen revealing himself as Jergal and mocking a mural of the Dead Three.

30) Crafting - An early access build contained a crafting bench and it seems originally we were meant to have full access to crafting/enchanting gear of our own through certain systems. While these were cut, the items for them were not. This is why items like ingots, gemstones, woods, and other material items appear in game with no use other than vendor trash.

31) Helia - The Halfling Werewolf that I sadly forgot was cut from the game.

32) Belts - There is an item slot in game for belts, not a single belt is present in the game as an item.

Now, I appreciate that some of it isn't necessarily relevant anymore - I thought Wyll was more interesting in EA as his darker side made him less flat, but that's my opinion. However the feedback is obvious. I'd have happily waited 6 months more to get this in the game.

Amazing, just found this thread and there is so much stuff in here that I sensed missing since the release. I am curious it's there no interview with Swen or any executive at Larian who can offer more details or explain if we will ever have the cut content?
Checking Swen's Twitter he seems to be happy with the paid reviews and went happily on a holiday!

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"Checking Swen's Twitter he seems to be happy with the paid reviews and went happily on a holiday!"
Well i guess we have the answer here guys.. forgot about cut content..
i just want a Better ending at Least, kinda of a Shame we will never see some of those things.. but At Least Gave us a Ending just That is asking too much ?!
(and im not Joking if yu still not Beat the Game Prepare yourself.. i bet some of yu will get the same feeling i get.. so far 600,700 in and not proud of it anymore.)

Last edited by Thorvic; 24/10/23 09:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by crst
Checking Swen's Twitter he seems to be happy with the paid reviews and went happily on a holiday!

Is there any factual prove that these reviews are "Paid Review" (Paid by Larian Studios as part of Marketing ploy to drive people to buy the game)?

This is quite an allegation and has someone press charges to take down Larian because they possibly broke EU law.

Last edited by Dext. Paladin; 24/10/23 10:36 AM.

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Larian did not had to pay anything, the rabid bear sex fanboys who attacked anyone who didn't rate BG3 the best game ever (see Eurogamer who dared to give 4/5) ensured that it was suicide not to overhype the game.

It of course helped that Larian held back the test samples for so long that testers could not reach the bugged and broken part of the game before release.

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The EA Wyll at least had something going for him, and I was looking forward to where his plot could go. The lack of ties to Ravenguard apart from respect on Wyll's part worked better too, in my opinion, since despite being his father, he barely reacts to the PC and Wyll romancing each other and plays an ultimately minor role in the plot.

Meanwhile Shadowheart maintains presence throughout all three acts, still, though, the removal of the Shar worship option in the full game is a freaking disappointment (although, given how we can't even choose not to be Baldurian as most races, I suppose it's little surprise since it would have had to account for the PC likely being the member of the same cloister).

My personal gripe with the more "evil"-coded companions, though, is that:

...they all have a "redemption arc" of some kind, making it feel like the writers were worried that the characters will lose in popularity or appeal if they are unapologetically "bad".

- Shadowheart's background is as predictable as it gets,
- Astarion is only like that because he was abused by his master,
- Lae'zel is easily swayed towards Orpheus despite maintaining her loyalty to Vlaakith even after an attempt on her life (the whole creche section was really disappointing narratively...),
- Wyll no longer displays his prejudices and hatred towards what he percieves as ultimately evil safe for Karlach which gets swept under the rug practically right away,
- and Minthara was all sunshine and kittens all along despite a Lolthian upbringing (and an "evil" route for her effectively means her living with a "false" identity, rather than embracing that perhaps she is cruel, violent, and fanatical to go with an evil PC - although, given how underdeveloped the evil path turned out (just like people were rightfully worried it will), it seems like the game really doesn't want you to actually play a villain except in a very specific way or go full CE and murder everyone indiscriminately.

Larian had a companion who was a tyrant-in-the-making in their previous game and he fulfilled his role well enough. There were Morrigans, Fenrises, Bishops, Durances and many others who could be thoroughly morally bankrupt or prejudiced or insufferable but they were well-made characters and interacting with them felt meaningful. Here I wasn't sure what the approval meter was even for, except romance - I assume it affects the difficulty of dialogue checks? Because nobody seems particularly keen on betraying you, unless perhaps you REALLY piss them off.

Last edited by Brainer; 24/10/23 11:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by Brainer
...they all have a "redemption arc" of some kind, making it feel like the writers were worried that the characters will lose in popularity or appeal if they are unapologetically "bad".
The sad thing is

Larian is probably correct with that assumption considering that the vast majority of talk about the companions is simping.

The entire cast of BG3 is rather shallow and just there for various fantasies to cover all "tastes". Take that away and there is nothing much left.
And sadly that works. So say goodbye to complex or deep characters, after BG3s success everyone else will start to lift their NPCs straight out of harem visual novels.

And not only the companions were dumbed down in the last minute, the plot was too with the addition of the Emperor which you can't really get away from until the very end in a ME3 style button press and consequence free tadpoles.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Larian is probably correct with that assumption considering that the vast majority of talk about the companions is simping.
If only it were just companions. The amount of attention towards characters like Sazza, Kagha (of all people), Dammon (who got a heavy Marty Stu treatment in the full game), Gortash, and Orin is positively Freudian.

Heck,

I didn't exactly need to know about Raphael's bedroom antics and preferences, of all people, and it makes it difficult to take the character seriously after you run into Haarlep.

I am also honestly surprised the game has the dullest brothel in all of Larian's games, all things considered.

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Wow, I had no idea. Until I found this forum, I thought I had a bad case of end-game letdown when I finished my first playthrough. I knew it had to end, but it was just so lacking. I thought there would be more, like the party Wyll wanted to have. Or more to the final scene with the companion my character romanced. Actually, when I think about Episode 3 in comparison to the first two it's rather bland. Episodes 1 & 2 were so amazing, Episode 3 should have been given the same love and attention. I hope it will be vastly improved with this promised patch they talk about, or the "definitive edition" thing Larian has done to other games. I just hope we won't have to wait a year for improvements. I've got a few quests left in my second playthrough, but I am reluctant to dive back in to experience that disappointing end again.

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In addition to OPs post saw on reddit some datamined breadcrumbs, some companions would've romanced each other, eg. Astarion with Karlach. Now that's an interesting combo.

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Originally Posted by crst
In addition to OPs post saw on reddit some datamined breadcrumbs, some companions would've romanced each other, eg. Astarion with Karlach. Now that's an interesting combo.

omg that would be both incredibly wrong and amazing!

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Well Guys Just Like i Said Before i really think yu all should Temper the Expectations becouse i dont really beleave that we will ever gona see Half of the Cut Content.
The Way this game Are at the Moment they will just Try to Fix It.
(maybe give us some Party or Slides at the ending for the Hero Path and Thats It..)
But even this Stuff that i beleave they will do i dont put my Trust that they will deliver yu know ?
i just Hope that at Least they Fix this.. but i dont Trust nor beleave in then in Anything anymore..
(and im saying this becouse of the Way Things are Going.. they are called at the Moment the Industry Changer yu know.. evrybody is Praising then Nom Stop while the game its unplayable for almost all players around the world and they just went Silence Maybe becouse they are on Vacation like others are saying.. but in my Opinion they are just Waiting for the Storm to Stop, so they can make a Move to keep been called the Best.. thats how things are nowadays.)

Last edited by Thorvic; 28/10/23 02:46 PM.
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So, the industry is gonna adapt the standard of fumbling around in EA for ~3 years to then take a 90-degree turn half-a-year or so from the release date, going on a marketing rampage that is nothing like what the game was previously advertised as, quickly cutting away unfinished stuff and stitching together last-minute replacements for things that aren't quite up to snuff?...

...I mean, it's not that different from how it seems to work with the big studios nowadays as it is, safe perhaps for the aggressive promotion of the in-game sex and how it used intimacy coordinators (for what, exactly? Nothing happens in most scenes, and many don't account for your character's gender properly anyway) and how you can create whatever character you want for it all (as in, most non-mechanical choices in character creation amount to bugger all, identity and "body type" especially, because all the game does is occasionally acknowledge the former but without making it matter in any way when it comes to content or choices).

As for what can salvage BG3 in a hypothetical "director's cut" - I'd say they should...

...cut the Emperor out entirely and rewrite the plot, removing the butchered lore (the illithids, people turning at the snap of the finger, and especially everything tied to Balduran which came out of absolutely nowhere and serves NO purpose). Also allow for a proper Absolutist path to be followed instead of railroading the player down a very specific route. Restoring the old Wyll is probably too much to ask, but still - he was a far better character in EA.

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