Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Tadpoles and consequences

I'm a bit miffed, that using tadpoles has no consequences at all, besides an ugly face ( I never use them,so I assume, that face is from using the tadpoles).
I think, there should be more consequences storywise, like locking you out from some endings, companions like Lae'zel, who is clearly against all things ghaik, should just leave or even attack you.
Maybe even making it way harder for you to still get the good ending - or getting it via a companion, that doesn't use tadpoles, and still loose your main character.
There should be something.

Agreed. The game sets up the pretense that using the powers and consuming tadpoles would lead to other problems later on. I never played BG3 during EA, but apparently Nere could dominate your mind if you were careless. It was the original intention but for whatever reason, Larian changed their mind.

Much of my first play through was spent avoiding the worms. My assumption was that delving too deeply would lead to the player turning into a mindflayer as a bad end of sorts. Even kept all the worms I collected in a little bag anticipating an alternative use for them later on.

I like to role-playing as a certain kind of character in my head, and the one I had at the time was a revenge driven durge. He truly hated them. He was going to eviscerate anyone and anything to do with the mindflayers and the tadpole placed in his head. Not being able to kill the Emperor as soon as he revealed his true form was already disappointing. Imagine my surprise when we were forced to turn someone into a mindflayer despite rejecting all things illithid anyway.

I still love this game of course, but that soured me quite a bit.

This is so true. On your first play through you avoid using the Tadpoles powers because of a few the lines suggest it is effecting you in someway but it never goes anywhere. Sure, you can RP it but it just feels dumb having these powers that can very OP for little cost and not using them. I really wish they didn't remove whatever plan they had for making the tadpoles a Big risk for a Big pay out.

This is a tough one. I take your point. At the same time one of the things I love about RPGs is the steady aquisition of new stronger abilities. And I love developers who are in on it.

Not to mention I think a messed up look would be quite a high price. I wouldn't want that.

If it's something like playing as an evil character absolutely. I would expect violence and hate. Consequences. For something that really boils down to a way to get new powers I don't mind if the game winks and tells me I'm on the list. I would be very frustrated about the other things Laurentia mentioned which I'm going to pretend I didn't hear but not this in particular.

I will say I'm suprised if someline like Lae'zel with her feelings about mindflayers stays with you if you keep absorbing tadpoles.

You get the stronger abilities already with level ups, so that base is covered. I just think, using the tadpoles should have some kind of consequences.
In EA, when you used your tadpole powers, that dream visitor became really creepy touchy feely and your companions are pissed at you. And, as mentioned, other True Souls, like Nere, could dominate you.
I don't think, something as powerful as the tadpole powers should come without consequences.

Lae'zel's reasoning is somewhat explained with the Zaithisk. Githyanki adapt ghaik strengths to work against them.

*

I think a messed up face is a pretty big consequence for using the tadpoles. But I still get what people mean when they say they're looking for a consequence.

--the thing is, why should there be a consequence? You already know you're being protected from fully transitioning into a mindflayer. Why should you not utilize power that's being handed to you, especially if you're using the power to literally save yourself?

--so what kind of consequence are you looking for? Do you want the tadpole user to be punished? How so? I mean specifically, what should the punishment be? This is a sincere question.

--or do you just want a reward for not taking advantage of power in the game? If so, I think that's fair. What kind of reward do you want, though? An achievement? A special item?

Why would Nere be able to dominate you when the elder brain can't? The whole point of what's going on is that you're being protected by the artifact.

The narrator tells me the worm is eating parts of me when I use Illithid authority in Act 1. I want to feel the consequences of that. Maybe after a certain point, give me more manipulative dialogue options, try to force me to get in my companion's heads, make it increasingly more difficult to NOT use authority, etc.

Because it was like that in EA. It makes sense: True Souls are connected and that can get used against you and if you weaken your mind by giving the tadpole more room, it would make sense, that you could be easier manipulated.

Fair question,

Personally? Because I feel that using power to dominate the wills of other sapient creatures to make your life easier shouldn't, ultimately, work out well for the person doing it in the long run. Fantasy game or not, I don't think that's a message that needs to be sent. People get off consequence free for horrible violations frequently enough in the real world - I'd rather my fantasy video game not suggest that that's a legitimate and consequence free path to success as well. Yeah, it's taking an element of real life to explain a desire in a video game, but I'm a real person, with real desires and sensations, and a game that says "violate people in this way if you like, it'll make things easier, and in the long run it won't change anything anyway, so it's all fine." just feels icky to me.


Personally, I'd like it if the more you used the tadpole's powers, the more likely it was to compel you to make further tadpole-oriented choices - positive or friendly resolution options disappearing or starting to prompt wisdom saves to succeed on saying, and even sometimes all options but the authority abusing ones disappearing, if you don't start fighting it. DCs would start low, but increase the more you used the power, making it increasingly difficult to choose something else; I'd like it if over-reliance on them led to a "bad end" situation at the climax, after a well telegraphed no-return lock in point (I consider the permanent character loss of becoming a mindflayer to be a "bad end" situation, for the record; it's the outcome where you Failed to find a better way).

I'd like not using them or using them minimally to mean that this doesn't happen, and ultimately, present an option for resolving the game's climax that does manage to find a better way.

Those are good suggestions !

Okay, now this "argument" changed my mind. Turns out, tadpoles need to be without consequences, after all.

I dont want games to preach to me, thank you very much. Its VERY annoying.

P.s.: Seriously, you can play a friggin The Dark Urge, thats a , in this game.

Personally I love how tadpoles are now.

Even during Early Access; the whole tadpole situation was indicating that the more it's used the more it acts as a focusing lens for the Guardian to connect with us, which gradually grew stronger the more we used the tadpole. Allowing the Guardian to protect us while harnessing its power.

• At the start the Guardian could only speak to us while we are unconscious or asleep
• Using the tadpole allows the Guardian to communicate with us more frequently and eventually even while we're fully awake
• If the player did not use it at all however, they'd entirely miss out on that whole aspect of the story (which happened to me).

Larian made the Guardian at the time incredibly vague and mystical, but it was always acting in our best interest. The only difference was they were quite annoyed if you kept implying they're a tadpole illusion or even tried to kill them. The whole Guardian/tadpole aspect was in fact so obvious with its subtlety in many situations that JAndK, me and several others basically unraveled the majority of ACT 1 and ACT 2 story at the time, with some minor ACT 3 elements as well, using nothing but subtle hints given throughout Early Access and connecting the missing pieces. Was a very fun thread to participate in

I'm glad Larian caught onto the problem quickly and decided to make it better it for full release. The player in full release is still somewhat misguided into thinking the tadpoles are bad and evil for them, but that's kinda the point. Seeing how even the Guardian does not know their true potential and gets surprised when they end up empowering us even further when they're tampered... fills me with joy.

Instead of punishing the player with consequences for using it, they instead are cleverly warning and punishing the user for trying to get rid of it. Because naturally that's the obvious thing to do... the human thing to do. We fear that which we do not understand and through that primal instinct we act, always resulting in destruction.

So instead of consequences for using it, there are severe consequences or even beneficial boons for trying to remove it. Naturally there are pretty severe consequences for using the giga-tadpole, but I disagree that the regular tadpoles need any severe consequences. I'm glad Larian left that choice to me for roleplay reasons and that the game reflects on my choice whether I wish to or don't wish to use them.

In the end I see it as a form of symbiosis and I'm all for it. The best of both worlds in a way to become something unique.

The classic "alien = bad" shtick would have been so boring and meh...

It's not preaching. It's in just about every game. You choose a bad path you get an bad ending. You choose a good path you get a good ending. That rarely happens in life. In this game it lets you take any path you like without thought, so you can kill everyone and still look like the hero at the end. Which is great but in the first Act you are told one thing about the tadpoles but then it just suddenly becomes a non issue. It's a loose end more then Right or Wrong problem.

Does it do this to some extent already? I’ve not played around a lot with options as I’m only on my second playthrough and still avoiding unnecessary spoilers so haven’t watched vids of other players. In my first playthrough, I just absorbed one extra tadpole, and then no more. In this one, my character used three, and then when offered the astral tadpole tried to resist but failed a saving throw and the narrator said something about her mind no longer being fully her own. It’s cast a bit of a pall over her act 3 (as well as messed up her looks) but definitely felt like a consequence to me. Though being able to fly is pretty cool

I do agree with the general point though, that tadpole use should at some point become irreversible such that even if you win you’ll never be fully human/elf/whatever again, and could find yourself increasingly struggling to take actions of your own free will rather than doing what the Emperor wants. Though to really feel truly consequential, there’d need to be a good alternative to turning mindflayer for someone who doesn’t chomp tadpoles and, has been commented elsewhere, that feels somewhat lacking at the moment.

(More fundamentally, I’m not a fan of the tadpole mechanic in it’s current form at all, and probably would have preferred it if it hadn’t been introduced. But given we’re stuck with it, I’d be all for some changes to make both using and not using tadpoles more of an interesting choice.)

Tbh Guardian/Daisy in EA was extremely rapey - that was the main reason, I didn't use my tadpole during EA, I don't want to get groped against my will..
I still do think, using the tadpoles should do something. You just put more worms into your brain and if you go into the tadpole menu ( your brain), the parts, that are activated with more tadpoles, look unhealthy, even dead. That should be shown with more than an ugly face imo .
I'm not dying on that hill, I still think, there should be some difference. I like Niaras suggestions, that it will become harder, to not use tadpole infused powers in dialogue and maybe come across as more alien and even unfriendly at times
But yes, it was good, that they changed Daisy to Guardian.

As someone who plays Dark Urge, I see injecting tadpoles into my character's brain as a way to fill the damaged parts of it to become whole again and activate its neurons. After all the tadpole is beneficial to our character in more ways that one, even giving us a look into other people's memories and expanding our horizons.

That's why I mentioned that I'm glad Larian did not go the "alien = bad" cliche and punish us, but instead left it to us as a personal roleplay choice whether to use it or not. As to me it's a form of symbiosis, a way to become the best of both worlds.

• The issue simply is that even when Larian tried misguiding the player into thinking about "punishment" and "alien = evil" thing in Early Access, it backfired badly because people were entirely avoiding that part of the story. Despite the clues clearly telling it's not negative at all, 99% of people were convinced that "Daisy" was just an evil tadpole trick or the Absolute herself.
• Even now it's having a similar effect when the failed attempts to extract it are punished, so you occasionally get a dude on Steam forums screaming his lungs out at Larian for not slapping them with a massive warning about consequences during procedures

It's just never going to work and I do not think there need to be any meaningful consequences for regular tadpoles, otherwise it's just going to be a repeat of history. Not to mention it would not at all align with the Guardian's lore & power because they are the reason why we get to use the tadpoles in the first place. They're here to enhance us and having any consequences to using it would undermine the Guardian as a character, along with the Prism.

The true consequence is the giga-tadpole.

I actually do quite like the idea of there being serious consequences to using the tadpoles, and I agree that having it interact with the 'become a mindflayer' aspect of the ending would be cool.
The thing is, if that's going to happen, I would say there needs to be another change made to the tadpole powers, which is to make most of them actually good.
I went through my whole first playthrough without deliberately using the tadpoles to unlock more than 2 or so powers all game, not because I was determined to resist the influence of the mindflayers, but because most of the powers simply don't seem worth using. The ones that require an action are almost always worse than just attacking or casting a spell, in my experience, so the only ones I really used were the bonus on first attack or check one and the one free crit per long rest one.
If there's going to be serious negative consequences for using tadpole powers, I'd say they need to be much more effective than they currently are.

But where is this "choice" you speak of? There is no choice. No *real* choice. The choice to not use the tadpoles is *not* a real choice. It is a stupid choice, a meaningless, empty choice, because you gain NOTHING from it and only shoot yourself in the foot from a gameplay standpoint. The only valid option for any player is to use the tadpoles. The option of not using it is completely superficial option that results in nothing. To say it is about roleplaying is ridiculous. That's like saying I won't use weapons or armor or potions or scrolls because roleplaying. Yes you can do that of course, but it has no meaning or value whatsoever. It's not roleplaying but rather stupidity on the part of the player. So feel free to love it all you want, but don't claim it's a "choice," roleplaying or otherwise, because it most certainly is NOT a choice. It's not anymore a choice than using the 'save game' option is a "choice."

I have played through to the end game I think on four different tavs now. Other than the illithid wisdom checks, I only used the tadpoles on my first playthrough and have avoided them since. It hasn't seemed to slow me down in any noticeable way. I just store them in my camp's traveler's chest and politely ignore them for the rest of the game.

Having played through both ways, it didn't really seem any more difficult or troublesome to make it through to the end. Others might disagree, of course. But I'm here to tell you I've foregone the diet of worms and had a splendid time doing so.