Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

With retcon I meant concept of her character, keeping in mind she was not origin etc etc. "Happy" ending invalidates the option of turning her into the mindflayer (she's not suicidal so no reason for her to do that) and the mindflayer option is in game from the begining so her making the sacrifice was always Larian's intention (or at least the option to do so, why only her is anyone's guess, but considering rest of her endings the answer is fairly obvious). So for the option to not stick out like a sore thumb and be completely pointless, they'd either have to delete it which is not likely or give the option to the rest of the companions, for example ultimate face turn for Astarion, way out of curse for Shadowheart etc. Now that's a lot of work and even more changes to the story

Ah i see what your getting at, but consider this, options in the game can- and in many cases are- triggered by who you have in your party at the time or what specific dialogue choices you make.

Like karlach can become a mindflayer sure, but if you dont have karlach with you when confronting the emporer, does that option and dialogue still trigger? I dont think so (but i could be wrong)

So adding an option to fix her but that requires some set up to get it right* to trigger again really wouldnt be that jarring of her character arc. Atleast in my opinion.
The character arcs can change and differ WILDLY through out the game based on player choice karlach though doesnt seem to get that currently.

I’ve said it once, I’ll say it a thousand times: This is the most accurately meme’d game ever.

How does everybody manage to get the characterization down so well?

Anyways, apt points. Not allowing us to save Karlach still feels like…well, a character whose entire story and origin was changed three times. I honestly feel like Larian’s own staff is probably feeling the same way, but eventually the game had to be released, and certain things left for a definitive edition.

Your welcome ! Lol and agreed!

She's the only one that can be turned into the mindflayer (although I think Gale can offer to blow himself up if you didn't take care of that by then but i'm not sure). That's her special interaction unique to her, if you add to this the fact that she wasn't origin until very late and (i'm not sure about that so correct me if i'm wrong) she wasn't even companion at first, you can see that there is a real possibility she wasn't meant to be fixable and we weren't even supposed to spend so much time with her.

I mean, that's quite possibly all true, and I'll agree knowing how we got to the ending we did, and what the intention was is interesting in a "how was the sausage made" way, but in the end what matters to me is the ending we actually have in the game that actually released.

(I'm not trying to give you a hard time or anything, to be clear- it is genuinely interesting the hints we have at what might have been planned based on what's in the game, but absent official clarification that seems unlikely, it's all pretty much speculation. Does make me wonder what on Earth enriched infernal iron was meant to be for if the engine was always meant to be unfixable, though)

Maybe we weren't originally meant to spend so much time with her, but in the release version, we do.
Maybe the engine was planned from the beginning to be unfixable, but whether that was the original intent or not doesn't make the fact that there's a bunch of options that are at least plausible within the setting that you simply can't try- and there's not so much as a hand-wavey explanation for why you can't do any of the obvious stuff- less irritating. There's a reason so many people have the experience of seeing her ending for the first time and more or less responding with "Wait, what? Did I miss something somewhere?"

We will have to agree to disagree my friend,
Im not really talking about a unqiue* option.

Im talking about drastic different changes in the characters arcs based on players choices. That are throigh out the game and that build on to each other.

As for her being a late addition she was indeed a late addition but i believe she was always intended as an origin character.
But her like wyll went through alot of story changes and switchs before they could even nail it down to get her voice recorded.
So while i agree she was added late and suffered for it.

I still hold firm that she was more then likely meant to be fixed.
But it did not make it to the august launch.
If a DE comes and ahe is still doomed ill concede.
But looking at patch 4. My hopium is pretty high. No one i think was asking for a new kiss animation for karlach, but my god was it such an awesome surprise. That costed money that was mocap and larian did it without even announcing it. I think we will see more content for her not just epilogues

That's true but the mindflayer option literally destroys the soul it rips out whats makes her karlach so its the same as death imo cause it's no longer her its something completely different and alien.

#JusticeForKarlach

This is so painfully accurate I hate it.

The meme is the perfect nutshell for trying to help karlach through the game.

That's just not true. If i'm not mistaken she wasn't even a companion at first and back in the EA she was completely different character. With so many changes there is no way she was planned as origin from the begining, it's the same situation as Halsin - he wasn't meant to be companion (or even romance option) but that was changed because how popular he became. As for the mindflayer option, yes it destroys the soul but well, it's still some kind of life. If she was meant to only be companion or character we meet along the way, your friend sacrificing themselves (despite it being cheap since the alternative is death etc etc, I already talked about it) could be a great way to raise the stakes. It stings because she was made origin so concept of her whole character was changed once again, maybe writers had disagreement and didn't want to let go of the idea that one of the companions could sacrifice themselves, maybe there was not enough time. It's basically obvious that plans changed, but sadly it is what it is. Changing or fixing that would require enormous effort and resources so it's really hard to expect any changes. Maybe DE, if they decide to even release that AND retcon Karlach's entire arc on top of that

I'm gonna have to agree with norrec there's plenty if evidence in the game and in some cut upper city content that karlach was suppose to be able to be fixed or saved at one point so it would be drastic or anything of the sort. You might need to call the voice actor back but all it would really take is maybe 2 dialogues where you build on already established mechanics in the game.

I don't think you'd be retconning Karlach's entire arc, really. To me it feels more like actually finishing it in one way or another. The biggest problem I have is that her arc in the story just kind of stops in act 2. There's some great content for Karlach in act 3, but everything that actually has to do with her ending (engine failing, can't be repaired) has happened by early-mid act 2 and there's never any follow up on it. That's a huge part of what makes it so unsatisfying. It's like having Astarion inevitably being kidnapped and used for Cazador's ritual because there just isn't a quest to deal with the problem in act 3, with no reason why there isn't ever given.

Conrad, my brother, in respomding to me you lay out all these changes to the game in ea that wouldve cost money, like halsin based on community feedback,
And then in the same post responding to canuck you say it will cost to much to change that part. Come on man.

I do agree if we do get a happy ending for karlach it wont likely be a patch it will be a DE edition, cause her story requires added content like avernus or atleast upper city.( if they wanna do it right imo) but i will bet money it wont require any retcon. It will just be added content with story options that the player can CHOOSE to pursue.

Just like we can choose to go to the creche or not. Or choose shadowheart to stay with shar or not. Etc etc. Its about player choice not nessicarily about how the origin characters arcs are SUPPOSE to unfold.

I'll just butt in to point out that Karlach is hardly comparable to Halsin 'cause if I remember correctly in EA our only interaction with her was the talk on that log we're now recruiting her at, she didn't participate in taking down the false paladins on account of being injured, and after we killed the guys she thanked us and just left.

(Went to look at the scene at YouTube and got jumpscared by a different voice, can't comprehend her without Sam)

One - in no way does that look like Halsin's situation, where he had his Act 1 arc pretty much fully present in EA, we talked to him, fought with him and so on (was he at the tiefling party? can't recall), and THEN people wanted more of him, so more was added (sorely felt when there's pretty much no content for him in Act 3, pretty obvious that he wasn't supposed to be there). What Karlach had is pretty much literally the bare bones of her current recruitment and then her content immediately stopped there - which has GOT to mean that it was a placeholder, that one talk couldn't have been the only thing planned for her.
Plus, despite the underwhelming personal quest, she does have some content in all three acts and a personal stake in all that's going on. Underdeveloped or screwed by cut content - yes, but she doesn't feel like she wasn't supposed to be there at all. She clearly fits.

Two - going from the previous point, those two dialogues we had with her EA version were hardly enough to make her a popular demand like with Halsin I don't think. An intrigue at best. I wasn't active much in BG3 fandom in the EA era, so someone tell me, were people talking about her so much that it called for a story role promotion? To an Origin no less, when the aforementioned Halsin just got to be a follower?

(Also those dialogues and her attitude seem to differ quite a bit from the final version, which, again, makes that scene more of a "In-progress-placeholder-that-got-changed-later", not Halsin's thing of building upon something already liked)

I think she's much more comparable to Wyll. Only he suffers from being almost completely rewritten after already having been a playable companion, and her turbulent development happened behind the scenes.

At some point in this thread someone correctly pointed out that none of her concept artwork (that we've seen) even features the engine glow or its valves, so it doesn't look like she was always meant to be doomed and dying either. Unless it was by some other means, I suppose.

(The funny thing is, if we're going the "A character/character's quest changed because of how popular they became" route, then Karlach has all the chances to go through that NOW. Which even makes some sense, seeing as she was barely in EA and didn't have that chance.)

By retcon, I mean her concept as character. We know that the rumour about the supposed "good ending" that was cut was fake (the cut content might and likely had been gondians or steel watch explaining why they can't fix her), we know she's the only one that be be turned into the mindflayer (which had to be Larian's intention for at least some time, otherwise why code something so specific at the last minute?) and we know they specifically added new lines in patch 2 to point out that her situation is desperate and added entire epilogue to make the avernus the happy ending. The question we should ask is are they willing to change all of that and are they even able to do so?
Becuae EA is the time to change and add things like that, not post release. It's not Divinity, you have mocap and everything here, that is expensive. Also, not to bash devs that listen to the feedback, but half of the posts on the forum is about Halsin lacking basically any content so even if the feedback is taken into the consideration, resources will always limit things as we can see even now

Honestly, why change any of it? I've been saying for quite some time, just make the happier option hard to get, easy to screw up, dependent on certain things and/or a trade off for something that makes the player pause. Voila, everything else can stay intact.

And those players who do everything "right" and make the trade off or whatever will suffer the consequences of their actions when there's no 'expendable companion' in the mindflayer choice. Cause and effect, as it should be.

(And to be honest, her role as the 'designated mindflayer' can't be THAT obligatory for the plot if it quite literally does not happen if she's not in the party when you're talking to the Emperor. Simply leaving her at camp locks you out of than route and that's okay, but an optional ending that does the same would ruin it somehow? Nah)

EDIT: She's not put in the game TO be the one who turns, she's just the one who is in the position to selflessly offer if she's present. Same as Gale being the only one who can offer to blow up, which he also does if he's present. It's just characterisation. You're giving way too much significance to it, imo.

EDIT 2: Missed a part of your argument - you can be doomed and then saved and it still will have meaning, see someone's point about Ravenguard above, so again, why change any of that?

Your right mocap is expensive, but bg3 has sold over 20 million copies before xbox releases.
To my previous point, they straight up added a beauty of a kiss animation with full mocap for ksrlach with no community asking for it. They are adding hugs due to feedback, and even though 20 copies have been sold they recentky announced hard copies of the game. Which also costs momey to make. Which argubly afyer 20 miilon sold. Why bother with that cost?

Im not saying your wrong at the fact the effort will cost money.
Im just saying Larian is showing they listen to feedback seriously and seem to be doing their best to add in stuff to the game post launch. Dispite the cost.
So im just choosing to stay positive with the evidence provided both in game and how the company is responding to the community.

Atleast until 2024 august comes around and if theres no DE announcment. Then ill concede the point. But until then
We should all be united in the goal of larian helping us save the bestest girl Karlach from death-hell or squidface.

#justiceforKarlach

I don't get why you keep digging in your heels about how she is supposed to be doomed because of her offering to turn into a mindflayer. I honestly don't get it. She's simply one more option that you have. You can take it, you can leave it, or you can completely miss it if you don't even bring her with you. By your logic it would also mean that Gale has to explode on the Netherbrain, since he offers. But thats a choice you get to make, isnt it?

I get even less how giving her a happy ending would somehow "retcon" all of her character. You literally do not have to change any of the stuff that we already have, you only need to add on top of it.

As for the whole "but its expensive" stuff: Sure, it costs more.Doesn't mean they don't change anything. With Patch 4 they reanimated the scene where you meet Minthara for the first time, for example. That also costs money, and I didn't see anyone ask for that, specifically, either. They are not done adding things, yet.
Does this mean they will give us what we want? Not necessarily. But I see no reason to be all doom and gloom about it.

exactly this they sold so many copies and the game did so much better than they expected i would be shocked if they ignored the community regarding karlach. if they do wait till a DE then it is what it is but i wouldnt put it too far out for them to release the content they cut from the upper city with some polish on it. i know im on the copium but given the recent track record with the rest of the game id say its coming.

#JusticeForKarlach