Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Tadpoles and consequences

I didn't say it's a consequence, I said it's a choice which the story reacts to because for whatever reason you keep pushing onto me that any player who decides not to use the tadpoles is stupidly doing so to intentionally gimp themselves, based on your own subjective overestimated value of tadpoles as a gameplay mechanic.

Which has been debunked by several people here because tadpoles in actuality do not provide any impactful advantage in actual gameplay, therefore gameplay itself does not carry any weight whatsoever in some people's decisions to not use them. Which is why my choice is based around the story itself and why your subjective opinion on what is "meaningful or not" or as you put it "is stupid" is entirely irrelevant, because tadpoles provide nothing for me as a gameplay mechanic, but as a story and roleplay element they absolutely do.

And btw the story does not react to the player never using any consumables, so that comparison is very flawed. As are the other ones previously made.

In any case and no offence intended; it's clear you're not here to provide any constructive feedback to the actual topic itself (as usual), but to pointlessly argue for the sake of arguing over nothing instead of simply offering your own formulated thoughts and alternatives to Fylimar's topic at hand.

I enjoy discussing ideas, but these pointless back and forths are of no interest to me.

Despite my thoughts on the actual topic, I still tried to address the concerns here by coming up with an interesting conceptual solution that would bring depth to both story and gameplay aspects of tadpoles and interconnect the two in a way that fits the present lore. So if you have anything constructive to offer to Fylimar's topic then by all means feel free to speak up and offer solutions.

I agree with Rahaya here: the game tells you, using tadpoles and tadpole powers is bad. The tadpole menu is your brain getting more necrotic with every tadpole, you insert, so yeah, there should be more consequences.

Killer rabbit: I just saw, that you asked for a title change: what would you like to change it to,? I was pretty happy with the title, but if it stays similar, I change it.

Ehhh, it's one line. Other characters like Raph or Volo, etc don't react. Every other time the Emp acts like you munched every tadpole you came across, including saying you were the 'same' as him for some reason, it doesn't open up any other dialog options, gives you more or different options later or anything at all. It is the definition of 'flavor dialog' and I don't know of anyone that considers flavor responses to be story choices.

And as far as the tadpole powers go, um, Fly? You also have videos like and as showcases. The game is easy enough to get by without the tadpole powers, but saying they don't provide an impactful benefit or it was 'debunked' is way too strong a word. It's a game balance issue. Not a tadpole power issue. They are clearly intended to provide meaningful benefits. If the game was harder, then it would make more of a difference. I can very easily see someone who struggles on Balanced to have a meaningful difference in play using tadpole powers now.

Ideally, Larian would have known what the intentions for tadpole powers were and integrated it more evenly in the game. If they weren't supposed to be that big of a deal, maybe don't have all the in game hints (or advertise shortly before release) that it's a big deal. This seems more of a 'managing expectations' problem more than anything else. However, as I doubt rewriting how much emphasis Act 1 puts on the danger is an option, the other method is to actually cash the check they wrote. IMO, being able to savescum all the main endings in the last hour or so of gameplay is a substantial flaw in the game. Having different ending choices for 'pure' vs 'corrupt' runs is the least that should happen.

Some kind of background approval counter for the Emp so that you can't just flip flop between Trust and Suspicion in order to make him flip flop between Ally and Sus would also help. Rejecting tadpoles despite his advice means he gets increasingly antagonistic throughout the game, instead of just forgetting you pissed him off last cutscene would be an actual story choice. TBH, each tier of tadpole power making you get increasingly uglier a la Dark Side in the KOTOR games is also an option instead of it just happening all at once at the very end.

And make people react to it!

It doesn't have to be super harsh, but there definitely needs to be something that isn't just shrugged off by everyone ever.

They left the EA lines from the companions about how the dream visitor gives them powers after both dreams. I want to believe that means they're at least planning to cash that check.

You'd hope so!

But they also left in companion lines about the exhaustion mechanic that was removed, so I'm not so optimistic

I see it's one of those threads where your're only allowed a single viewpoint so I'll see myself out.

For those worried about necrotic brain - we'll you're not forced to consume the tadpoles so you don't. I fail to see the issue here, but who or what is supposed to reward you for that (that's covered with tadpoles)?

No seriously where should the "pure" mechanic (btw LOL) stem from? There should be ingame explanation for the "powers of purity" or whatever you want to call them...

It's like arguing you should look younger than people using botox IRL - basically it comes down to autonomy to do what you want with your body...

And yes it's a fair point tadpoled brain is probably unhealthy for an individual and yet if the whole world and everyone alive in it depends on the powers of said individual, I'd argue it's only responsible to use every possible aid including the tadpoles for greater good.

If we return to the very first opportunity to use the tadpole powers - it might be the only option available to you to rescue Shadowheart and for all you know you're leaving her to die otherwise, so what's the "good aligned" option here?

I made this thread and I have no problem with all kinds of different opinions. If you don't want consequences, that is ok with me.
All i ask is that we keep it civil, while discussing.
Rescuing Shadowheart is one of the only options, where I use the power - of the tadpole, I already have. I don't want to insert more - for roleplaying reasons.

Rescuing Shadowheart also doesn't result in the narrator telling you you lost something, right? That only happens when you use the tadpole power on a person.

Yes, at least it was like that for me

You claimed there was no way to know if there might be consequences in the game so it was a pragmatic gamble. The same game that did everything I mentioned + direct mentions of possible soul destroying by Withers to boot. That's not a 'only one viewpoint allowed' situation. You were just wrong. Objectively.

It is my opinion that the game as is does not really support moral subversion as a theme very well. Not that your idea of it was inherently bad or not allowed, but that it's more than a little bit of a tonal whiplash for the same reason why 'you can get happy enough endings for everyone except Karlach's are all terrible' feels really weird. If you wanted the game to support moral subversions with more nuance, then have at it, no problems here at all!

The "You lost something" is based on using the tadpole for a 2nd time. So using the Illithid Wisdom on the Nautiloid still counts as an actual first use and thus awakening the tadpole as the Narrator comments.

• Which is why in Early Access a player was able to summon the Dreamer so fast before even stepping 5m from the Grove. Shadowheart > Wyll > Ed (cultist outside the Grove) = Spawn Dreamer and get Illithid class power.
• In full release using it on the Nautiloid now also requires a full long rest to be able to use it again and naturally triggers the very first step on getting the True Soul tag.

An actual pure run would entail leaving Shadowheart imprisoned, unless one plays a Barbarian or Sorcerer as they can both free her without it.

So using tadpole powers becomes a problem only once narrator says so?

And if she never did? Besides who is the narrator anyway?

I'd say it's the inner voice (conscience) of the otherwise mute protagonist and therefore highly subjective.

Anyways I've said my part and just in case reiterate: please Larian no purity system for me (still waiting on explanation for the source od "Powers of purity" - I'm actually curious here)

If she never did, you would still have the brain destroying menu, commentary by characters like Withers and Elminster on the terrible side effects, you would probably have to do something about the 'kill yourself' Illithid ending because that is an option since you feel yourself slipping away and the fact that it's in D&D 5e lore that ceremorphosis is really bad juju that needs a REALLY high level spell like Miracle to reverse or literal divine intervention past a certain point.

So.

*shrug*

And you would still get all of the above mentioned comments (and the picture with a tadpole lodged in your brain which is not something the protagonist would ever see od be acutely aware of if we talk brain looks) whether or not you use the tadpole powers because the whole premise of protagonists story is the tadpole in PCs brain in the first place (used or unused).

Also the danger of ceremorphosis persists with one or more tadpoles used or not (I would however make an exception for the Astral tadpole here which - it is actually made quite clear brings you a few steps closer to becoming a mind flayer)

So...

*shrug*

Yes?

Are you saying that if people are telling you that one tadpole in your brain is bad, that the reasonable conclusion is that introducing more tadpoles that have to eat your brain to make space for them in the first place (we have handy cinematics, that looks healthy!) is a net neutral?

Also, not sure what you mean by the picture of the tadpole not being something the protagonist would see. This is still a video game? The game is still telling you, the player, that tadpoles are bad for your brain regardless of the narrator saying the same thing or not. I don't understand what you are arguing here. And as a game, player, D&D lore nerd AND protagonist, there is 0 indication of the "Astral Tadpole" being the only one that actually matters (for turning ugly) being a thing until it is sprung on you at the very end of the game.

Decisions are made with the information you have, not with the information you don't.

I guess, if your brain goes necrotic, you should have some problems, even in a world with magical healing.
I'm not saying, the consequences should be really dire, but people reacting, maybe some changes in the endgame.

Thanks for this. This is very well put.

Sorry for the late response. The forum was acting up so I waited until it seemed stable again.

As I understand the post from Salo, in this sub forum you don't have to use spoiler tags if the OP includes (spoilers) in the titles.

I think we've got some good suggestions in this thread! I hope Larian takes notice.

I don't find any way to change the title, but I guess, it is ok woithout the spoiler tag

I think that using more tadpoles and the powers should have more consequences/impact storywise. I mean, the emperor wants you to become like him, an Illithid that retains independence/personality. I think that from his perspective, that is something good. And the more powers you use, the more Illithid you should be. And that should mean different reactions/dialogs. I understand that having this would mean a lot more work. But the easier way to implement it is that by the time you have to choose to become fully Illithid or not, well, if you choose to use the astral Illithid, you kind of made that choice already. And choosing not to become Illithid should require some difficult will saves. And the more powers you have, the more difficult the saves. After all, part of you is already changed/illithid. In fact, at the end, even if the tadpoled die, the parts of your brain already changed, might remain changed. What is done is done.

But I don't think that would be implemented even if I would like it. It is probably too much work. XD