Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Astarion's corrupt past. Astarion is not like a cake, it's like an onion.

These are not my discord writings. I don't even go there. It's just someone with the same username.

Either someone is impersonating me or we had the same idea for a name.

This is the only place where I have this name and I'm happy to have it changed to be disassociated from insane people like that.

And here I thought I've seen the worst when it comes to Astarion's fanbase toxicity.

Any screenshot can be faked. And why are you trying to search for someone else's discord dialogues? Are you a stalker?

The war is getting bloodier, I see. Marywoods, who registered 3 hours ago and went straight to my thread, not Ametris with improvements, who is much more popular, 3k views. And there's no proof other than the name.

About that... It's terribly bad talk like that, and I hope this person said it on emotion and was very angry about something, and in pure mind doesn't think that way and very truly sorry and will never-ever do that again.

Everybody, please be okay.

Err, marywoods it sounds to me as though you are endorsing a view that says real life trauma survivors should ideally have been killed so that they can't influence a video game. Without the context I have no idea whether that's really what you're saying, but if so then that's not acceptable and a very unpromising first post on these forums. And if you don't really agree and only quoted because of the username, then as I said earlier let's not import beefs from elsewhere here, but instead let's discuss (in a friendly, constructive fashion) with the people actually here, based on what they say here, and not make assumptions based on usernames.

The digital artbook already has several other blatant, outdated errors in it (such as his background being a courtesan instead of a charlatan) so we can't take that as canonical because it's not a reliable source, unfortunately.


We'll just have to agree to disagree, then. The "evil person has their role switched and has their entire worldview changed" is an even more common trope, to the point where it's the plot of several animated children's movies. And originality aside, I just don't find it very interesting anymore.

I'm sorry his story didn't turn out the way you'd hoped. This is also why I don't like to play the EA of any game...there's a chance I'll become attached to something that gets completely changed, and if it isn't to my taste I'd end up pretty disappointed. I think it would be hard to stop myself from playing a hypothetical BG4 EA though, I'll admit. I'm desperate for more of anything by Larian.


Yes, current day Astarion is ready and willing to sacrifice Sebastian, or at least he's trying to convince himself that he is (if you don't do the ritual but still kill the spawn, he expresses deep regret over their deaths). But it's very plainly clear that Astarion from the past, when he hadn't been turned for long, felt horrible about bringing Sebastian to Cazador. He also outright defied Cazador at one point by refusing to bring him the "sweet boy" he talks about. I don't think Astarion was a good person by any means in his magistrate days, I personally believe he was most likely power hungry, selfish, arrogant, corrupt, and racist. He mentions that he's never had a person he truly cared for before in his life, not even a real friend, and that usually isn't the case for anyone who isn't unpleasant at best. But that's still a far cry from someone who is so morally bankrupt and evil that he is willing to sell people into slavery to a vampire lord, and several things in the game make it pretty clear that that particular element of his backstory was cut/rewritten. Considering that his past is barely brought up, I'm doubtful that the writers at Larian even bothered to flesh it out much after they dropped that part of it. I think our only chance of finding out more of his former life is if we get some kind of Definitive Edition with extra content down the road. Personally, I'm curious about where he was born and grew up. Was he always from Baldur's Gate, surrounded by humans and human culture, or was he raised among elves and decided to leave for whatever reason? It seems as though being an elf has almost no relevance to him, to the point where you could change his race and it would affect pretty much nothing but a tiny handful of dialogue lines and his sleeping animation.


Power as a magistrate is very different from the kind of power that Astarion is currently seeking. Moving up the ranks may or may not have been his main goal in his past life, but at the point the game starts his main goal is simply just freedom, and he needs power in order to achieve that specifically. That's...basically the entire crux of his character, that he is motivated entirely by fear and is willing to do whatever it takes to not feel vulnerable and afraid anymore. You can either feed into that in his ascension ending or challenge that worldview in his spawn ending. He isn't instantly "fixed" in his spawn ending, he doesn't become an angel, it's simply his first step of going into a completely different direction in his life (he also doesn't give Tav a death threat if they break up with him in the epilogue, lmao, that's such a wild way to interpret that dialogue). Neither choice is right or wrong, it's up to the individual player, but it's been made explicitly clear by both the game itself and the writers that Astarion's number one motivation is fear and not power just for the sake of power itself. We can choose to interpret things differently if we wish, but at the end of the day anything that isn't concretely presented to us in the game is nothing more than headcanon.

I don't believe there is really anything more to discuss on this topic, so I'm out, but thanks everyone for being so civil!

For once I make an exception after years of avoiding any forums to actually get involved in social stuff on the internet and then this happens. >.>


This would be interesting to learn about!


Well, he does tell Tav not to go looking for him and that he will have a lot of hungry mouths to feed. To me it seems like he's insinuating his hand might slip and he'll release his spawns' leash if he sees Tav. But maybe I did interpret it in the most extreme way.
As I said power is his main goal because it gives him what he desires the most - freedom and life without fear. We learn as much from the dryad love test. It's a tool and not the endgame itself.
I agree, there's no right or wrong choice here. It's all up to everyone's preference.
Thanks for your input as well!

Honestly I don't think Astarion needs fixing, sure I'm not going to help him murder his own kind on my main playthrough, but I'm also no going to redeem him either, personally kin should look out for their kin, like for example a Tiefling PC even an evil playthrough would more likely side with Grove than the Goblin camp, not because it's the right thing but rather it's their own people, I feel like freeing Astarion siblings should be similar, like yeah, Astarion you can still be an evil prick but you also can't go around killing family, Astarion dude you can repurpose them as your servants as a true vampire, you can treat them better than Cazador and still kick puppies, lock them in furnace if that's more your thing, steal people's girls and hunt down an entire bloodline if you must, maybe even father some illegal bastard kids with 4 different women and hook up with an equally morally corrupt male cleric just for fun down the line.

There's a strange confusion with Character Sheets.
Where he's a courtesan, and not a charlatan as he is now.

I made a mistake, my bad.
The artbook is from Digital Deluxe Artbook EA's time, but with clothes and new art as in the game - which confused me. So we can't 100% about its corrupted past and what it was inspired by - WHAT A WASTE. No wonder the fandom is on fire and everyone understands it differently. And considering we have the upper city gone (it was supposed to be) - we can't take in Astarion's story entirely in the game.

Oh my goodness what a mess.

Also, Stephen Rooney said that Astarion was changed the least than other characters. I heard that, didn't mention it because I don't know the exact source, maybe it's from this link interview.

Only if someone someday adds information about his dark past in the dustiest corner of Cazador's castle. That's the only way we'll be sure. Or a new book, artbook, fanbook, something.

If someone painting a landscape, thay not going to start abruptly painting a still-life. The author's idea that this elf was Very Not Good remains.
Makes sense - because if he's so very lambish, not a complex character with evil in his blood (While we have Minthara), that we'll decide what to do with. We're just not going to have an evil-male-character-companion in the game.

My personal opinion is that if it isn't in the game or something officially released by Larian tied into the released game not EA, then it can't be canon.
And also that it leaves it entirely up to the player and how they want to view him (which is probably why Larian are being intentionally vague).

I also don't think it matters, if he was evil before it would have been for what 15 years or so? He was supposed to be in his mid 30's when turned I believe, young for an elf, plus he wouldn't have walked into a job with that much power as a teenager. I reckon anyone completely controlled, tortured and abused for nearly 200 years has repaid any possible debt to society accrued from what they may or may not have done as a young adult many years previously.
My personal head canon is that he was probably completely oblivious to any ramifications handed down as judgements, gaily continuing his merry way drinking the taverns dry, playing dice and visiting brothels, and clothing shops and buying jewellery for himself and the job was just something he wanted for the intrinsic status it gave him. He might well have taken the odd bribe here or there if it gave him the illusion of being powerful but I don't think he was evil, more heedless and, at the end of the day, very young.
I wouldn't mind in the slightest if he was outright evil in those years either, its just not my normal head canon on him.

But thats the benefit of Larian not giving us a ton of canon information we can all imagine him exactly as we want him to be

I just want to see normal story Astarion/Gur/Cazador. Im not believe when monster hunter says - You cath our childs, you vampire spawn, but it's ok. You kill Cazador... good boy. I remember Maiden Fel in EA and all theory, it's been interesting and Cazador theory, datamine too. In early concept Cazador story line is more interesting... And last Astarion qwest corrupt judge.
it's a pity many so good, very good ideas has been cut.

Agreed.

For personal reasons, I absolutely love Astarion's arc. To support a flawed character fight his demons and choose a path of healing was incredibly rewarding for me (and many others). Astarion's story made me feel seen. It shows, even traumatized and not properly functioning, people are worthy of compassion, care and even love.

To twist that into 'evil character deserved 200 years of torture' wouldn't make his story better. The opposite actually. In my opinion.

The ending for unascended Astarion needs some serious work though.

Welcome to the club, visit our emotional support thread.

Thank you! I did visit and read it. Took a lot of patience to get through, because the forum wouldn't load a lot of the time. I'll post my thoughts on the topic once I gathered them.

It's a common misconception about D&D elves. Yes, for elf standards 39 years old elf isn't consider elf-mature. But for humans he is 39, like 39-years old human. Elves grow up as quickly as humans, they just grow old slower after then. So treat Astarion as en equivalent of 39-years old human magistrate.

Another example - Drizzt do' Urden left Menzoberrenzan when he was 30 years old and he was a fully developed adult then. And nobody considered him a kid, not even other drows.


You mean someone datamined cut Astarion quest from the old version of the game? Do I understand it correctly?

I'm adamant that it remains even in the final release. I see it and feel it, I don't believe one bit that this past is gone.
I'm sure one of Astarion's major plot-twists in the upper city is that after all the way through, when we learn his past, we'll be able to appreciate... Not even his personality, because 200 years of torture is quite a lot for a personality.
Author's Idea. That's the most important thing to me. People nowadays love psychology to evaluate a character. I always favor philosophy.
And there's nothing wrong with that.

Let's see.
It still wouldn't be "twist into an evil character deserving of 200 years of torture." Why is that, let's find out. 200 years of hell isn't enough? Quite a lot. Let the change can work with this story as well. It's even a biblical theme. True repentance and forgiveness.

Well, I think he would choose the path of evil himself, if it gave him what he wanted. Astarion is undead, there are more demons in his blood, much more. I view vampirism as a propensity to sin. Only with support can he become a better man. Is that right? The path of ascension is "Evil End" as Stephen Rooney said. I think of Ascension as the culmination of dark desires. And I don't think Astarion with all his huge inner demons deserves to own the world. BG3 likes gray morality, even the path of ascension is not black. It's much more complex and that's ok, because Astarion himself is a complex character.
Like I said at birth humans and even elves are innocent.
Dark Past doesn't make the story worse for me, it makes the remorse deeper, more convincing. Every personality has dark traits, it doesn't cancel out the good ones. A story with a sophisticated gray morality.

In EA even this information, it was the same as it is now, many people chose Astarion.
I think it's important to approach such things with extreme caution before recognizing the author's whole idea cut or not, completely. Because the point may be different.

Add to that the author's words that traumatized character is not what he wanted, simply part of it.
For me, the author's words are reason enough to look at it from a different angle.
Speaking of my feelings, if I told someone even in a whisper about my art that "I wouldn't want it to be interpreted as only ___ "traumatized" (in Ast's case)" - it would be a scream SEE IT OTHERWISE.

A poetic story about justice and evil, punishment and mercy.

That's why I think his Good Finale is so bittersweet. This man was killed once for his sins. Evil justice. It's humiliation, pain, fear - hell. 200 years of hell. A harsh lesson? If this true justice is as violent as Will said, then justice should not be called virtue.

In the end, of course, I think we can agree to disagree.

Yeah I know hes 39 years old in anyones reference

My point was badly worded. I meant that he was unlikely to have reached a position of power such as magistrate much before he was in his mid twenties so probably was only a magistrate for something like 15 years at the most (give or take). And that as someone in his mid twenties onwards he was still a young man for that job by elf standards (actually I don't know many human magistrates in our world who would be that age, most are older).

All guesses anyway, for all we know he reached the position of magistrate and was vampired within a day for not being Cazadors choice for the position rofl

Yes. Sorry for my english =D