Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

I don't really buy the idea pulling out the engine would have to kill her.
I mean, we know for a fact it has to be possible to pull out what's in someone's chest and replace it with an infernal engine of some sort without killing them- if it wasn't, we couldn't possibly have Karlach alive with an engine in her chest instead of a heart.
Frig, she just straight up shoves upgrades for it into her chest without serious trouble on two different occasions

Beat me to it. Lol

It's been a while since I played which is why I ask. I'm not sure about it, but her engine can't be pulled out (and then replaced) because she'll die without it, otherwise why can't she just do it before the thing explodes? And her heart was replaced by Zariel who's like archdevil with godlike powers so she can bypass many rules. As for Dammon, yeah, he shoves upgrades, but he doesn't pull out the engine which is the key here, he upgrades something that already works inside her, but can't fix it permanently. Which is also why steel watcher tells her that her engine can't be fixed and she should go to have it dismantled. With all that mind I would assume that even if Gondians have better version of her engine, they don't have a way of actually putting it in her to replace the old one without killing her. Correct me if I messed up some details

Mild nitpick here, the Steel Watcher thinks that she's another Steel Watcher (it calls her "unit" and asks why she's walking with civilians), so it tells her it can't be fixed purely from the technological standpoint based on its knowledge. Not because it knows that she's a person and it's impossible to take it out of her to be fixed.

I do agree however, that even if the Gondians/Ironhands/Dammon do come up with a fix, the part about actually doing anything with her literal heart would still be the tricky one. It's unknown what magic Zariel and/or Avernus' mechanics used to rip her heart out and replace it with a machine without Karlach dying (so quickly, in fact, that she didn't have time to realize what was happening even). Plus, by Karlach's own words, we know that she's the only one who's not a devil and survived the engine. The "lucky" one.

Honestly, if THAT was our undoing, our insurmountable obstacle in her quest, it would make much more sense. Machines can be fixed, heart replacement with such unusual complications is another thing entirely.

But it would also make return to Avernus framed as looking for someone who can help, or maybe the operation would HAVE to be performed in the Avernus' temperatures so that the engine going crazy wouldn't complicate it further. Hell, the whole ending then would still be open, but have much more hopeful undertones, I think. Halfway there, a fix in hand, just need to bully a local mechanic into helping before Zariel catches on.

(But also having the exact parameters of HOW Zariel did it be vague and unknown technically allows for an alternative to exist in the material world as well, if the plot wanted it.)

EDIT: Re: "Otherwise why wouldn't she pull it out before it explodes" - well of course she'll die if she just rips her "heart" out and that's it. Replacing it, however, theoretically could be another matter entirely. Some stasis spell to allow her to hold on in the gap between uninstallation and installation, or something like that. We figured out heart transplants with technology, why can't it be figured out with magic and artefacts (theoretically)?

Well, we never do get any details of the process of installing the engine (as I recall all Karlach says about how she survived it is "high pain tolerance").
My point is just that none of Karlach's story could happen in the first place if it wasn't possible to replace a heart with some kind of replacement without killing the person involved.
I wouldn't expect the process to be simple, of course- you'd need either very powerful magic, help from a powerful devil, or both, in all likelihood- but then, neither of those is exactly a huge stretch within the game.
Maybe it is actually impossible without the power of an archdevil, but there's nothing to specifically suggest that that's the case. It could be- hey, that might even be an explanation you could give the player for why it can't be fixed, if we'd actually been given one- but based on what we are told by the game right now, there's no reason to assume it *has* to be impossible.

(There's also the half-joking point to make that it might not even matter if the process does kill her- Withers and/or raise dead scrolls work fine on Karlach, so as long as you could get the engine installed in her corpse, you can just bring her back to life after. Unpleasant for Karlach and more than a little silly, definatly not anything I'd like to see them implement, but the game clearly does establish that raising the dead is possible, so...)


EDIT- just noticed the post above me, wanted to say I love the idea of bringing a fixed engine to Avernus with the intent of forcing a devil to install it as a way to make the Avernus ending much less bleak.

I mean yea sure if their isn't (pulls out the list) scrolls of resurrection, divine intervention, powerful healing magic, stasis magic, using invulnerability magic to keep her alive long enough to do the surguery, make a deal with any of the devils we come into contact with, the greatest artificers in the city who just happen to save) alot of ways to save her from that fate that you're not looking at. The game is fantasy dnd if something like this can't be fixed I need more reasons other than some demon robot and a single blacksmith telling me so. Let me make deals with vlaakith, any of the devils, a God, or give me a reason we can't find a good option in avernus. The game and the setting allow for too many options to fix her engine for it to be so easily let go and karlach just condemned to death.

This is exactly my thinking thank you for putting it into better words than I could.

#JusticeForKarlach

Precisely what Dammon implied. The only way i could see her heart being fixed or, hell, upgraded is only if she's in Avernus as it's the right temperature.

Also I think the safest bet would be to upgrade it instead of removing it. She puts stuff already that 'cools' down her heart so I don't see why it can't be upgraded somehow with better infernal material in Avernus without it going haywire. Besides even if Zariel did some magic doo doo that permanently has her infernal engine melded with her body, there has to be some solution. It's a fantasy world. Maybe she did something, akin to what Cazador did with Astarion - 'marking' it in a way so nobody can mess up with it. As her way of saying 'she's mine'.

A fight or a talk with Zariel would have been so fun to have in the game since we already can talk with gods and lich queens and devils. I'd have loved to see Zariel, honestly.

If a fix is to be done in avernus, chances are it will be before the end of the game, while im confident we will get a way to fix her and more content in general. I really doubt they will make a dlc that hinges on sending karlach to hell at the end game. Theres just to mant variables to do a post brain- dlc

Oh yeah, i'm just guessing. They can definitely do all that beforehand and leave the Avernus ending if we 'fail' to fix her heart somehow.

Or if we had an Avernus mission, much like the house of hope. Now this place could have been a perfect set up for a Karlach quest for her heart. But, alas.

May still get it, an avernus section was in the works but never made it to the end product. So we dont know how soon into development it was scrapped. I think uppercity is more likely to be added. But in a perfect world we would get both lol

I do like the idea of busting down avernus doom slayer style to demand a fix to karlachs heart. I'd hope to see something more akin to a survival type mission where damon(or some other skilled smith) works to upgrade/ replace her heart while the player has to keep devils and other avernus natives away. It would really keep avernus as a place that's terrible and basically a death sentence for any non devil but you can last long enough for the operation. As long as I'm given a fix I'm more than happy tbh. Uppercity is way more likely in my opinion to get adapted I'd just like to hear some kind of official word from larian.

#JusticeForKarlach

That's why I said that the theoretical cut content for Karlach was explanation why Gondians can't help, something like you said. The story would be better but wouldn't change in the end and since Larian was short on time, they couldn't implement it or prioritized other things. Also, isn't the point of Avernus ending (especially after patch 2) precisely what you said? Heroic/desperate attempt to set things straight, I think if you're playing Karlach as origin and romance Minthara, she says she'll go there with you because that's where the fix is so it kinda confirms that going there is looking for cure. If the epilogues will be added, they'll propably explain it in more details

I've yet to see anything that would suggest the avernus ending ending is anything but a death sentence at best and just giving karlach back to zariel at worst. The minthara end of it is likely in the same vain or vibe of wyl going with her. But again the whole avernus ending while cool is for just a death sentence with a few more dead devils at the end of it. So heroic sure but not really desperate youre just going there because there isn't another option. Maybe larian meant for the avernus ending to shine a light on how futile it is to really try and save her given they made a big deal about adding "the ending she deserves" and just puts her right back where she was trying to run from. That's assuming she only dies in avernus and isn't taken captive by zariel again which is in my opinion far more likely.

I've yet to see anything that would suggest the avernus ending ending is anything but a death sentence at best and just giving karlach back to zariel at worst. The minthara end of it is likely in the same vain or vibe of wyl going with her. But again the whole avernus ending while cool is for just a death sentence with a few more dead devils at the end of it. So heroic sure but not really desperate youre just going there because there isn't another option. Maybe larian meant for the avernus ending to shine a light on how futile it is to really try and save her given they made a big deal about adding "the ending she deserves" and just puts her right back where she was trying to run from. That's assuming she only dies in avernus and isn't taken captive by zariel again which is in my opinion far more likely.

Well, one, "We can fix the engine but we can't install it here so that's why you need to go back to Avernus WITH a fix in hand just to find a way to implement it in the place where they already did it once" is miles more hopeful than "We can't fix the engine, you have no plan or cure, you're going to Avernus in a desperate attempt to live more and it all hinges on a baseless hope that we'll maybe find something". What we have now is the latter, what I was talking about is the former, and they're very different tonally.

(To be clear here, I am not talking about a playable post-game DLC even, I'm talking about the same open epilogue we have now just holding way more weight and reason.)

Secondly, "This likely was a part of the quest but they ran out of time and dropped it to prioritize other things" may be an explanation, but hardly an excuse. Especially in light of the wild difference in content amount between certain characters. If there was such a lack of time (which yes does happen in development, yes, and devs shouldn't have to crunch), maybe Astarion could use one or two scenes less in favor of characters like Karlach or Wyll?

This is not a dig at Astarion btw, he's just the most glaring example of what all origin characters ideally should've had. And if there wasn't time to give them all this treatment, then it's not entirely unreasonable of us as players to complain that the attention got split unevenly and resulted in what feels like quest holes. Because let's be honest, if something was indeed planned but dropped (especially if it's just Gondians telling us "no", which would be like two voicelines), then it was obviously something important - otherwise we wouldn't have so many people convinced they missed a part of the quest or messed it up.

Whatever it was (if it was anything at all, of course, but we all agree that the present Act 3 hints are suspicious), it's absence is kinda glaring in the pacing/reasoning, which is why we're politely hoping that something could be added/restored eventually.

(p.s. Honestly if it was just Gondians/Ironhands telling us to scram I'd say that would be patched in by now)

I'm not saying it's and excuse, rather explanation of what happened. For me it's ridiculous that the game that doesn't even have epilogues is considered GOTY, yet alone things like upper city and characters lacking content (out of all companions that got screwed out of content Karlach doesn't even have it worst btw). As for the Gondians telling us why they can't fix her being restored as few voicelines, maybe it's somehow tied to the upper city and moving it is too much work? Same thing could be said about the fake rumour that Dammon was supposed to find the fix, he's already in there in act 3, if he there was any cure done by him, adding it to already existing and coded npc wouldn't be a problem

If by not having it the worst you mean cut content then maybe but that's likely due to the fact that karlach was a late addition to the line up. As for the gondians having no option with them just makes me feel like shit seeing the best blacksmiths around and not asking them about this hell cancer in her chest. Damon doesn't have to be the one to find a fix it was just an idea it would make more sense if he didn't have one since the engine in karlachs chest is likely using some kind of devil magic or some shit. Also saying karlach doesnt have it the worst in terms of cut content doesn't mean alot when she still has the worst ending of either lose your soul, die now, or die tomorrow. Her whole story is so pointlessly depressing it just makes me feel like they dropped a grim dark character into this fantasy setting instead of actually making a fantasy character that meshes with the world. The glaring plot holes around her story are so huge for such an otherwise great game it's infuriating.

I wouldn't go as far as to call it plot hole since her condition being unfixable can easily be explained with few dialogues that will likely be added, especially if the DE turned out to be possible but yeah, I meant content. Minthara for example doesn't even have relationship dialogues and you can't even break up with her without cheating on her to trigger the interaction

Oh Halsin and Minthara definitely got the short stick, but at the very least they are not Origin characters (which doesn't make it suck less for their fans). Although the missing dialogue triggers in Minthara's case are really bad. The parsed dialogues indicate parts of her line will likely be reworked (see the new not-yet-implemented dialogue of recruiting her with Halsin in your party, which will definitely be a change), sure hope everything else about her gets fixed and poilshed as well. Although I'll have to say, even with the broken triggers she feels much more fitting in the Act 3 storyline and in the group overall - by the virtue of also being tadpoled and having a personal connection to a boss (Orin), unlike Halsin, who... could really use some more content there yeah.

But in my opinion they more so should be compared to Jaheira and Minsc in terms of. Not being a part of the main six.

Now as far as the tadpoled gang goes, the only character who has it worse than Karlach in terms of content amount is Wyll. It doesn't always feel that way because his dad's importance and also prominent cutscenes with Mizora make it feel like he has more than Karlach's fetch quest, but also the lack of agency (why can't we even ask his opinion half the time?) and being overshadowed by the Emperor in what's supposed to be his personal quest are kinda. Unfortunate. To say the least.

TLDR is that I that I think it's natural that the rest of the characters will be held to a different standard than the main six (altho there are problems even so!), and within the origin crew Karlach doesn't have it the worst in terms of content amount, but she's definitely down there.

Dare I include the actual statistic in case you think I'm just being irrational here. The time statistic is based on the sheer amount of all voicelines put together, not on the time their actual quests take, so the scene amount is a more of an indicator there.