Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Add more answer options for Astarion

You’re probably right that I view it through rose tinted spectacles - as a woman born in the 80s, Dracula, Frank N Furter and Lestat were all high pinnacle romances for bad girls. That’s probably why I don’t have a problem with them.

People brought up on Twilight might have a different POV (which is totally fine), but at least I knew what I was getting when I chose Astarion’s ascended version.

This is what I meant when I said you're asking them to write another story and character. The abusive nature of the relationship is integral to the narrative. They're not going to make changes that totally undercut the story they've written. What you're asking for is a dark fantasy romance akin to Spike and Drusilla and although the illusion of this is what Astarion is using to entice the player, because he believes it's what they want, the dialogue is presented the way it is to reflect the true nature of the situation.

You don't view the relationship as transactional, but the character you're speaking to does and they want to make that clear because it's an important part of his story. That being said, you do have options to tell him you did it because you wanted what was best for him. It's literally the first dialogue option available. You can also tell him you wanted him to be free, but it seems now he never will be. The first part reflects the player's intention and the second reflects the narrative outcome. I understand you can play a character who doesn't believe that, but they're trying to balance between the freedom to roleplay and story integrity.

If you want the option to miss out on the final scene of his quest if he doesn't ascend, that's fine I guess? But most people aren't going to get all the way through a story and decide they don't want to see the conclusion. They'd have to write, act, and record dialogue for it and for the follow up conversation that almost no one is going to see. It's a waste of time and resources. Whereas a lot of players will choose to end the relationship rather than become his slave, so they had to account for that.

Will also add that while you can't break up with him in the graveyard scene, you can be a jerk. You can be neutral. You're not forced to commit to anything or sleep with him. And you can breakup with him immediately afterwards, up to the very last scene of the game. But again, the scene is more than a conclusion to the romance. It's a potential conclusion to the character's story and they want it to play out in a way that does justice to it because they care about the quality of the writing.

Also want to say there's nothing wrong with wanting a dark fantasy romance. I love that shit. I just think the reason people may be unhappy is because they're looking for something in the story that isn't meant to be there.

I'm older than you. As I said, I'm ok with people liking the bad boy trope, I'm not shaming Here. But I'm an avid gothic and horror reader and a musical fan and had to just get that out of my system.
I don't have a problem with adults indulging in stuff like Twilight, 50 Shades or ascended Astarion. I am a bit shocked though, that Twilight is for teens and it shows them a very unhealthy relationship dynamic.

But I digressed long enough, sorry, I see myself out. Happy discussions.

Same here, friend, no shaming on either side, we all have different preferences. I like RP’ing these characters because I know I wouldn’t put up with it in real life. They’re ’safe spaces’ to explore our darker sides in a consensual and informed way.

Anyway, I hope future DLCs will help provide more lore if nothing else ^^ (once they fix act 3!)

It's not about how it should and shouldn't have been, but how the audience perceived it. The image of a vampire has become dangerous and fascinating for a reason, you cannot dictate to people how they should perceive fiction.

Lestat is not written in our days, if you are talking about the first books. Of course, he is not as ancient as Dracula, but his image is not the same as Edward. Should we bring up the topic of some crazy clans from VtM? I hope not...

I didn't deny toxicity, I said it wasn't a problem and this image remains romantic. It doesn't matter if it's toxic or not. Most villains in literature will be toxic. And yet people look at Dracula and Phantom of Opera with adoration. They love them. Even 10-20 years ago, no one used word "toxic" or "abuser" for fictional characters. Let's admit this is a modern trend. You don't have to use these words for literal characters.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't have written it, let's be honest. And if you are actively trying to prove to someone "oh, this character is very toxic, so you should not love him and his actions should offend you" - then you really care about it. Which, by the way, is rly strange. Btw "something between" its not exactly the same.

The next time you "don't care", don't say anything.

We already know from the script it should be there. If you have the option to remain mortal at the end and there are special answers for this scene, then you must have a line in the dialogue that will lead to this. Once again, even if Astarion perceives this relationship as a barter (I disagree with this by the way), it's on him, not on my character. I should be able to play this moment the way I want. I don't understand why you are so resistant to one positive answer option. Literally, they can add one positive line. It's not that much.

He may even respond rudely to this positive line. I don't care. But I want to answer something positively, because the question "what do you want" is not rude and will never be rude.

Hey now, no need to get angry here. I said, I don't care about ascended Astarion, since that will not happen in my games. As I mentioned to Dark Angel, I'm very into gothic and horror novels and I had the urge to just put things right. Book Dracula was not romantic in any way, he was a decaying corps, who smelled like a decaying corps. Dracula as the gentleman vampire is a reimagination by Hollywood and his second movie encounter with Bela Lugosi ( the first one was Murnaus Nosferatu, where despite the changed name, the vampire was mainly shown as he was in the book).
As I said, I don't shame you or want in any way tell you, how you play your game, I was simply answering Dark Angel about Dracula and Frank'N'Further not being good examples for non toxic people. I know, that dark romance exists as a genre, I worked long enough in a book store, this was mainly a discussion about literature and musicals.
And I'm sorry, if I derailed the thread, I'm more than happy to discuss further via pm. I have no problems with different opinions and views, I myself am romantic as a stone, soI mostly don't get the fascination.

I don't think anyone here has a problem with that. But it should be made clear with Astarion's words, not the player's. The dialogue in question only has the following options: 1. "turn me"; 2. "fuck me"; 3 and 4. "let's argue". There's nothing to pick if your character for example doesn't want anything from him and isn't interested in picking arguments. Astarion's personality doesn't need to change if the player is allowed to say "i don't want anything." He'd just continue pushing and it would be in character.

I'm confused because there are positive lines for the player. How is saying you wanted what was best for him not positive? When he asks what you want you can then say you want to be a vampire like him. When he asks if you want to be his forever you can say yes, it's all you want.

You can only get the scene where you say you're not ready to be a spawn yet if you circumvent his ultimatum by not triggering the intended scene. I agree that the writing there conflicts. But they'd need to add more than a line of dialogue if you were able to stay with him without becoming a spawn. And ultimately that's not the story they wanted to tell.

But when I said it's not meant to be there, I wasn't referring specifically to the option to stay with him and keep your freedom. I'm talking about the version of a dark romance people seem to be asking for in general. There isn't a more genuine romantic moment because they're intentionally portraying the start of an abusive relationship. And it seems like people are really looking for a version of the relationship that isn't abusive, but his being trapped in the cycle of abuse is the point. It's part of the conclusion to his story.

That would be That would be fine. But that's not the only thing being asked for here at all or the only sentiment being expressed.

This is literally the only thing I asked for. Add a positive phrase for Ascended and a negative one for Spawn.

Being a vampire like you is not a positive option. Because it's barter again. Besides, who told you that my character wants to be a vampire or planned it? Exactly. Why should I choose such a narrowly focused answer that I never even thought about. Oh, wait, because the other three are aggressive... well, wow. And we come back to this problem again.

Also sorry, I should have quoted. But I wasn't responding to you with that post. I was responding to the person who called me a moral activist, because I thought it was funny. I don't have a problem with the ascended storyline. And I'm not someone who thinks you have to clarify that's it toxic or "bad" if you like it. Women especially are shamed for their taste in fictional men and I think that's why my talking about the abuse in the story might be making people feel like they have to defend themselves from something. I'm discussing the themes in the story and how I don't think the narrative should be undercut because people just want it to be a romance. I'm also not only responding to you, but the comments in the thread overall.

(Edit to say that I did actually quote the post I was responding to.)

Yes, to be more detailed.
This weak dialog comes after "I want the best for you."
".... What can I do for you my pet?"
1. My goal is not to become a vampire. Pass. \If that's not what Astarion wants, but hasn't really said it in this dialog yet\

2. He's one of the reasons I play. I want to, of course. I saw it as a sharp flirtation from my Tav... But if you think about it, "Your body," as Nyloth said, is really kind of... not very nice. Especially since Astarion said he didn't want it to look like "just sex". Pass. \I'm a fairly romantic person

3. Not so bad, but I'm not a teacher. But I have to be because...

4. I (my Tav) his, from Act 1. This has always been a edgy flirtation for me from the vampire bun. He used to call my Tav that. Though in this situation he was probably testing a reaction, but it's not clear because he's actually flirted like that before. I think I sensed a hint of it, but like my reaction was still : D "Huh, you cheeky pup". If I said that, it was just playful.

So, yeah, we're not the romantic option. But it's a romance with the Vampire Lord. We can carve out a grove and ok, evil but ok, and we can't be romantic with Lord Astarion. Meh.

5. I want to be with you. - That's a good suggestion

6. Or really be the practical Tav who thinks and\or worries not about candles and bodies but about dealing with the tadpole in our heads. And again it's just practical-neutral (although it's even caring about "us"), because we already have a negative answer.

I hope it helped to understand why this dialog looks so odd to some people.

There's already a very negative option if he doesn't ascend. You can tell him you're surprised because you thought he was "just a power hungry mad man."

The option to say you're not his pet is there to display that this is how he sees his partner now, and if he says it's a just a joke you can say it sounded like he meant it. Your character can pick up on it or not, but it's there to reveal a facet of his character.

This option still does not allow me to leave scene. Need an option to interrupt the scene. It's strange this is one of the few scenes that you can't interrupt in any way. You can't refuse go to the cemetery. You have three "yes" options. I remember a meme with Mass Effect, where you have three answers that mean the same thing, but sound different. They could really write:

1. Yes
2. OK.
3. Of course

and this would be the same as what we have in the game now.

I would have agreed to use this option if it was interrupting scene and Astarion was angry, instead of tolerating my aggression. But this is not happening. It's as if you didn't have the opportunity to leave scene with Ascended Astarion until the moment he tells you to kneel.

And even when you're in the cemetery, you can be rude to him again, but it won't interrupt the scene. That's what I don't really like.

I don't remember any instance where he would show regret, he won't stop talking about how good he feels and how he wants Tav to share in all the splendour. The only provoker in this situation is Tav. You could roleplay your chara being fully on board with his schemes throughout the game but in this single scene suddenly you're not anymore. There is zero conflict if you tell him you want his bite or his body. If he is provoked that's when he actually lashes out at Tav for being a hypocrite (and rightfully so).
Tav is the last piece of the puzzle to his vampiric dream. If he convinces Tav then in his eyes he becomes better than Cazador, because he never had anyone who didn't hate him, actually cared for him and someone he could truly trust. I don't think he ever fully trusts Tav until they become his spawn. Even Cazador will say that to Tav if they go to him alone. That Astarion's distrust in everyone is his only redeeming quality. Astarion pretty much admits it by telling Tav they'd earned a little bit of trust, but only a little. In a banter with Lae'zel post-ascension he tells her he needed someone he could trust and that now he knows Tav will never turn on him. There is another one with Karlach where he says he has one person who trusts him completely and that's enough for him. Spawn Astarion tells Tav he'd be ok with them going their own way, which is a lie. He's terrified of being alone after that year of silence. I'm sure if he could he would prevent them from leaving him like AA does.
To me it's the other way around, he approaches Tav because he's confident enough they would agree to his proposal but also worried they would change their mind once the dust settles and they actually do see him as the monster he thinks he is and break up with. If he manages to secure them before they possibly start feeling guilty then he has nothing to fear anymore.
If Tav does break up with him, he never blames them for helping him become the vampire lord. He bashes them for rejecting his gift and not wanting to enjoy life with him, and tells them they'd regret leaving him.

I would also like to see the option to call him out and ask what it's really about. I think he'd say what he does post-breakup that he was really trying with Tav in the only way he knows how. The ultimatum should also stay there, however, because there exists an ending where he lets Tav stay mortal for a while, there should be an option to ask him for some time to decide. I think he would be impatient and just give them one day, approaching them the next long rest.


The way the dialogue is framed makes it seem like Tav is preparing to break up with him and is starting off gently before getting to the meaty part. If you could roleplay agreeing with him all the time, you should still be able to do that here. This is plain simple imposition of the writer's idea of Tav onto the player and taking away roleplay from a roleplaying game.
If we go down the angsty Tav route, why can't Tav actually feel sorry for him and say "What have I done? It's my fault you're like this now, I've created a monster". Heck, you could even roleplay Tav as a self-sacrificing hero who wanted to help him but then threw the morals out the window for him, and decides to spend eternity with him as a form of punishment for their crime, while hoping they can still guide him to not go full evil.


That's a very finite and black-and-white thing to say. He is as trapped as he allows himself to be. At that point the only thing in his way would be a mental blockage. There are no external limiting factors anymore. I think the story is more potent and interesting if he becomes powerful but proves he's not another Cazador, instead of being scared of his own shadow and denying himself just to please Tav.

Basically, Astarion's writer took this as an opportunity to impose some kind of morality message onto the player instead of letting the player roleplay how they want.

It's weird looking back at EA because everyone was like "this game is too geared towards evil" or "this game will have great evil paths." In the end, it ends up punishing evil paths and evil characters, (The spoiler is vague but just in case).

I can appreciate a theme or message in the writing, but I don't appreciate being given the illusion of choice in roleplaying and then being railroaded.

I'm not even an AA player, but I can sympathize with the frustration of those players, especially since everyone ends up patronizing them and telling them they're enjoying their fiction wrong.

The other crappy thing that was discussed on the forums about this exchange and actually the whole path is that as soon as Astarion ascends you cannot even tell him you love him. You can only ask him for a bite and sex or create conflict. The game assumes you're a selfish asshole who pursues him for their own goals or is terrified of him and has buyer's regret. It doesn't allow you to roleplay otherwise. The only semi-romantic option is telling him you hoped he'd learned to love you, but it still doesn't specify that you do. You can only lecture him about how you loved him before ascension.