Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Is DnD 5e Needed?

We have a great conversation on another topic going, so lets see if we can get two in a row.

Love it or hate it BG3 has been a real success story. There is room for debate on how much of that success was because it was DnD with the BG name or not, lets look down the road.

Do you think the impact of BG will really have staying power for Larian and CRPGs in general if they do not have DnD attached to them? Will BG3 be remembered as a great CRPG in general or as a DnD Computer RPG?

CRPG or DnD RPG single choice
	Will be known for a great CRPG
	Will be known as a DnD RPG
	No real impact either way
Votes accepted starting: 27/11/23 02:28 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

BG3 will be remembered as a DnD game.

Because it's prominently featuring DnD mechanics.

Will it impact Larian and CRPG's in general? No.

Larian is already reknown for its Divinity titles, which weren't DnD games. Heck, it's this reknown that helped sell BG3 in the first place. People knew how good Divinity was so they were hyped at their attempt with a equally noteworthy IP.

For me, BG3 needed 5E. It's a faithful crpg modelling the table top experience, using the best iteration of the rules to date. Focusing part of the game around camp drama was stroke of genius move.

Personally, I'm not very interested in learning other complicated rule-sets. I played DOS1 and recall thinking it suffered numbers bloat, that's like a system problem from 4E days. New rulesets need to hit the ground running. A good example is Darkest Dungeon 1, I grokked that quickly, simple to play but complex to master.

Also, Forgotten Realms is valuable IP. By now it's about as rich in lore as Tolkien's Middle Earth, due to all the content creators. And having Ed Greenwood as custodian is very smart.

This is a BIG deal that most people overlook. A GREAT RPG is about the story and the lore more than the mechanics. They could have done DnD 5e, in my opinion, and if they had not used the Forgotten Realms the success would not have been as great.

I think BG3 will be known for both (because it is both)!

I don’t think DnD 5e is necessarily needed for future Larian games, though, so I voted for Will be known for a great CRPG.

DnD has a lot of benefits (such as having big spell lists), but it wasn’t designed as a system for video games. Because of this, I think there are better mechanics that could be used in some cases (such as the resting system and leveling).

BG3 was not possible without dnd 5e. WotC would have never allowed BG3 without the current rules set.

But Larian has its own system already and also already voiced displeasure with hiw restricting DnD is. So its very doubtful that they continue with it.

What made BG3 so successful was neither 5E or even the Forgotten Realms name, but being a successor to Baldurs Gate and a sex centric marketing.

They could have done it using Divinity system and would have been not much different but d&d isn’t just the dices, it’s all the classes, races , sub races, sub classes , spells and so on.

So without all that it would have been very limited as far as gameplay goes, would have been like divinity with just a few classes which are also not that well balanced and just a few races .
If we only talk dices then no dices aren’t needed but the entire d&d thing is critical.

Even without the cinematics BG3 gameplay is a lot more fun and better than divinity

As a DnD RPG.

I am 100% positive the vast, VAST majority of it's audience are not familiar with CRPGs as a genre in the slightest. It's viewed in the same category of 'RPG' like the newest Mass Effect, Fallout, God of War etc that are very linear experiences and as such are wow'd by seeing 'consequence' of their choices have reactivity. This can easily be seen in the absolute glut of comparisons to Starfield. I can't imagine comparing Pillars of Eternity, Disco Elysium, Wrath of the Righteous or even Wasteland 3 to Starfield, even if they just came out a week before. It is simply a different genre of game. It would be like comparing Path of Exile to Starfield because they are both 'RPGs.'

For it to be known as a good CRPG, people have to know what a CRPG even is.

Well, IMO, it certainly wont be known as a great anything. It depends on how far "down the road" you are talking but I reckon that this time next year BG3 will be largely forgotten.
A more important question for me would whether other companies will be encouraged or discouraged about making a DnD/Forgotten Realms game.

D&D system is the main appeal for me in BG3. Forgotten Realms comes second.

I dislike Divinity's generic mmo gameplay, loot grind and surface spam so much I can't really enjoy those games at all.

BG3's biggest flaw is that it doesn't offer a more accurate D&D gameplay mode. That's why the game is too easy, and that's why they have to bend the rules even more to offer a challenge with senseless enemy stat bloat. Videogamey stat bloats and tongue-in-cheek type of gameplay don't belong in RPG's. Compared to Divinity, D&D 5e is more immersive, more realistic hence more believable as an RPG, and it plays a lot smarter when you have to manage your resources between Long Rests rather than go all-in in every single encounter. BG3 would benefit from playing more like tabletop, at least on one difficulty mode.

So yes, D&D is very much needed. It's a breath of fresh air when other modern RPG's play like mindless button smashers or like MMO's with grindy loot and cooldowns.

DnD saved Larian from their godawful armor and itemization in DoS 2.

This is essentially why I copped out and clicked No real impact either way; I don't feel like we know BG3's legacy yet. As for what other developers may take away from this success, my suspicion is that the studio heads are going to consider the tone and sexuality of Baldur's Gate 3 as the "winning ingredients" long before they get too far into the weeds of gaming mechanics.


Totally agree. When I look back at something like Dragon Age: Origins, I wasn't loading in for the combat mechanics so much as the setting, characters and story. It's also worth noting that for some people - ok, me - unfamiliarity with DnD mechanics and lore was a painful early barrier to entry for this RPG experience.

Prior to BG3 I knew nothing about Baldur's Gate other than it being some decades old RPG and any time any game was shown as turned-based I'd immediately lose interest and run the other way.

But BG3 radiated something... unique about it. It looked like an incredibly interesting RPG with an intriguing story and gorgeous visuals along with a beautiful soundtrack, so I figured why not try it out despite it being turn-based.

So I got into Early Access and immediately fell in love with it to the point it awakened inside me a newly discovered love for turn-based gameplay that reformed me. I played it religiously, more than I did most fully released games... but I wanted to play something actually finished at the time, so I found DOS2 and then it became clear to me that Larian just knows their stuff when it comes to RPGs, because both were so phenomenal that DOS2 and BG3 are among my favorite games of all time today.

So it being DnD or whichever ruleset DOS2 used ultimately doesn't make a difference in my opinion, to me at least, and it kinda shows because a turn-based RPG is massively swiping awards and praises left and right. I enjoyed BG3 back when backstab cones were still a thing and I enjoy it now.

Many people who never ever touched turn-based games came to try BG3 and I personally think that is a wonderful thing. It's pure magic to be able to draw in people who normally have no interest in a genre and ending up loving it so much.

So for me BG3 is a DnD RPG, but regardless whether it was 5E, 6E, YZ...I know I would still be here for BG3.

D&D 5e sure, but that's not really enough. For me the big draw is the Forgotten Realms campaign setting.

One of the issues I have with trying to pull something like this off outside the Realms is that I just don't care nearly as much when it's an 'original' IP, and I'm way too precious with the other official D&D settings.

FR is my preferred knock-off setting. It's already a knock off of a knock off anyway, but it's the massive back catalog and the kitchen sink aspect that appeals to me here.

It's like you spend all this time to familiarize with the lore, and excavating the various layers there, over years and years, and it's fun when everything kinda stitches together that way, and has that sort of payoff.

They could probably have made a nearly identical game set in Rivellon with bespoke game systems, but then I probably wouldn't have known to care, and doubt highly that I'd have spent 3 years in an EA for that.

If their next game is also set in the Realms, I think there will be a pretty high level of player retention for that. If they go another direction I'm sure plenty of people will stick around, but it's not going to get anywhere near this kind of reception. People show out for the Dungeons & Dragons, FR and BG, in a way that they just wouldn't for other stuff. This game totally pulled me out of the woodwork on that alone, so I think that's a key component of the traction and a big part of the secret sauce on this one.


ps. It can't be overstated, just how satisfying it is to learn how to play D&D for the first time. Meaning that, after playing a couple hundred hours in a computer game, if someone were to ask "Have you ever played D&D?" that you could basically answer "Yes - why yes I have!" and that's certainly something right there. Dungeons & Dragons is not a particularly easy thing to get your head around, even in 5e, and first impressions are important. I think there's a real sense of satisfaction that comes from having that experience which just can't be overlooked. It allows players access to the broader D&D culture in a meaningful way, and that remains, even after the credits roll.

This is a big deal when devs look at designing an RPG. The Realms has a WEALTH of lore for players to deep dive into. Want to know more about Illithid and their ways, well there are a ton of books and articles available. Want to understand the worship of Shar, again a lot of material. The realms are one of the most fleshed out fantasy worlds a RPG dev can find. New IPs have the issue that they have no lore to fall back on. I have been having this discussion with the folks that made Solasta. They offered a lore book to a few people and then pulled it after Kickstarter. That book, or even a smaller version would be amazing for a lot of us as it would give us more lore context.

Problem is, that lore also restricts which Larian obviously was not a fan off. Thus they ignore past lore whenever they please.

If true this is sad to me. If the lore is to restrictive for an IP then use a different IP or create your own gaming world. Grabbing an IP and then ignoring the lore to me is a pure exploitive use of the IP and just lame.

The 5e ruleset is quite literally the only reason I'm here. It was advertised as a 5e dnd crpg way back when, and I was excited, because all the other dnd crpgs I have played were all made using older edition rulesets. The only Larian game I had played before this was the original divine divinity (still one of my favourite old games), and it was only after getting into the BG3 early access that I tried out divinity original sin.

Like other's said, I don't think wotc would have allowed a baldur's gate game to be made without the dnd ruleset.

I don't see any other (or many) RPGs coming around with that much effort (read: budget) put into them. Even if they do, I think BG3 will be still enough one of a kind to be remembered fondly. I have some serious gripes with it - but guess what, so I did with D:OS2 and Dragon Age: Origins. And while with time people seem to become more aware of those games shortcomings, that still made positive enough impact to be remembered fondly.

I am not quite able to predict how much D&D is needed for Larian's continuing success. It definitely brought an audience TO BG3, but I feel those who liked it, liked it because of Larian not D&D. Would non-D&D licence alienate those players who jumped straight into BG3? I really couldn't guess. It is not inconceivable that even a straight up BG3 sequel might not do as well as the original. It would all depend on how much of the audience is attached to D&D/Forgottern Realms, and if they think Larian did it justice (aka. they would be up for more).

Not much lore was done dirty imo.

The only things that spring to mind is the weak reference to the threat of the Cult of the Dragon (CotD) that Wyll claims to have made his pact to defeat. If you ran those adventures the CotD was at least as powerful as the Absolute. Imo, Mizora simply tricked him and/or he's an unreliable narrator.

Oh, another is Aasimar. Aylin might be a kind of Aasimar, but she is not the usual type.

[Edit] The heartlands terrain. It's not presented as raised sandstone scrubland, but verdant grassland (and Trielta crags are north-east). But this can be handwaved as local terrain and abstract maps. Besides, it's beautiful.